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To be fair, you did try anyway. So that doesn't really count.
Nonetheless, I get what you're saying, but I do feel Smash Dorf captures him better nowadays. It's only Melee he was vastly off. They gave him a ton more canon abilities and moves. This would've been cool to add in Ultimate as a secondary character(just as I said, a bit more Knife and Trident to round out his moveset, since let's be fair, Ganon/Dorf's mage stuff also relates to the Trident too. Knife would be a bonus and make a lot of sense. He's a thief by trade as well, heh. Now, it's not just Mages and Knives go hand in hand since Final Fantasy, way before Ganondorf debuted. It's cause it fits his OOT self very very well).
In the end, it's obvious you convinced me another Ganondorf would be cool. That's... kind of it.
Hoo boy, this thread was burning hotter than Scorch N Torch in the last posts.
What was made clear is that Dixie being a clone or original is a very sensitive subject here. As if it wasn't clear the first 100 times it has been brought up.
We can only respect each other's views on the character until she gets in (Which at this rate is going to be happening in 2028).
If only there was something interesting to talk about.... now this is the time Nintendo releases a new update of Switch Online, adding more shovelware no one cares about instead of actual legacy games.
Hoo boy, this thread was burning hotter than Scorch N Torch in the last posts.
What was made clear is that Dixie being a clone or original is a very sensitive subject here. As if it wasn't clear the first 100 times it has been brought up.
We can only respect each other's views on the character until she gets in (Which at this rate is going to be happening in 2028).
If only there was something interesting to talk about.... now this is the time Nintendo releases a new update of Switch Online, adding more shovelware no one cares about instead of actual legacy games.
Clearly the reason they still haven’t released the SNES trilogy on Switch Online is because of that DKC HD Trilogy Remaster for Switch we’re totally getting announced at E3 along with some Dixie Kong DLC.
I made sure to play as each of those characters and take pics of a side-by-side comparison of their movesets, their attacks and animations during said attacks. Each Echo moves near-exactly the same as their base when fighting. Even Dark Samus, for as much as you asserted she stands apart from Samus moves spectacularly like her, but with the added "nuance" of a twisted arm and SFX to cover her posture. Luckily the in-game camera lets you toggle SFX, making all of Dark Samus's standout animations look like a sleight of hand to have us go "Wow! She's so different!" Compare Lucina's, Chrom's, Richter's, Daisy's, Dark Samus's and Dark Pit's distinction to the likes of Luigi, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Isabelle and even Ganondorf of all fighters, then tell me you don't see the problem. Now take it a step further and compare fighters who aren't derived from others. The contrast is night and day.
This is of course what you're advocating for Dixie. You point to 6 copied movesets with little variation and argue that Dixie can do it too with no fuss or cause for concern, then hinge everything on damage percentages and knockback properties, with superficial aesthetics (Dark Pit's Side B, Richter's Blue Holy Water) to justify it. What you're sidestepping is that Echoes are literally "This moveset, but with a twist" and asserting that these characters are so different because (paraphrasing, bear with me) "Lucina hits harder than Marth, so I mean c'mon they play nothing alike! Never mind the majority of shared animations, attacks, attack functions, maneuvers and stuff! Focus on what's really important: the technical data that can be drastically tweaked with a patch! Not the fact that these characters swing in the same arc, strike with the exact same pose for 95% of their moveset at the bare minimum! Where's your priorities?! Blue fire is different from red fire, case closed."
That's splitting hairs at its finest, and what that post you made means for Dixie, is that she'd vary little from Diddy outside of Tier List Stats. As you can see above with Chrom, the only wildly different thing is his Up B; the rest is a near 1:1 mimicry of Roy; you'd give her the same Jab, Smashes, Tilts, Aerials, Grabs/Throws, Dash Attack and most Specials, sprinkle in a girly flair, change a Special and call it a day. A fighter in SSB has at least 21 attacks not counting ledge sweeps and the like; Diddy in particular has 25 (3 Jabs, Tilts, Smashes. 1 Dash Attack, 5 Aerials, 4 Throws, 4 Specials that grant 2 extra attacks). The Echo you're advocating for gives us a Dixie with 24/25 of Diddy's attacks....but that's tooootally fine, because the damage percentages and launch trajectories mean there'd be no comparison! Anyone who asserts otherwise just didn't do enough research; I'm sure that if we hinge everything on assets that get tweaked by balance patches every few months, there'd be no cause for concern!
A character can borrow from another fighter and still be different.
I mean you didn't mention the one echo fighter that is actually a different character, Ken.
Dixie can definitely adopt a lot of Diddy's options as a base, and change the properties so those moves are used differently from Diddy. Effectively making her different enough from Diddy. It's like the Melee way of making a echo/clone fighter.
BUT if she's DLC they're going to spend the time to polish her so she would at least feel to Diddy like Isabelle to Villager/Lucas to Ness.
A character can borrow from another fighter and still be different.
I mean you didn't mention the one echo fighter that is actually a different character, Ken.
Dixie can definitely adopt a lot of Diddy's options as a base, and change the properties so those moves are used differently from Diddy. Effectively making her different enough from Diddy. It's like the Melee way of making a echo/clone fighter.
BUT if she's DLC they're going to spend the time to polish her so she would at least feel to Diddy like Isabelle to Villager/Lucas to Ness.
Dark Pit, Lucina, Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, and Chrom only differ from the base character in stat tweaks; even Chrom for as hyped up as he was for having a different Up B plays identically to Roy; I went and made sure for each of them. The attacks are virtually the same, and outside of superficial animations we're looking at the same base fighter. We can't point to Ken to justify Echoes being different when he's the exception. He's outnumbered 6:1 and only gets that designation because he started out as that 40 years ago. We shouldn't point at an exception and hope Dixie gets just as lucky.
Honestly, one Echo in Name Only doesn't really justify the term when we have 6 other Echoes who fit the mold. 6/7 of them are "This moveset, but with a couple tweaks" while the odd man out is one because Sakurai said so. We have a clear idea of a typical Echo because the majority of them, not the exception.
There's nothing wrong with using characters as a base. Wolf is the only Starfox character I can even play as. What I want is for them to start with Diddy and then branch out significantly; not take Diddy's 25 moves, tweak the damage and knockback for 24 of them, replace the 25th and call it a day. They could also make her unique. She mainly needs to stand apart significantly, which 6/7 Echoes don't. Relying on different properties and the like to justify Echoes is a bit silly when balance patches drastically tweak them almost monthly. Let's build houses out of sand while we're at it.
There's nothing wrong with using characters as a base. Wolf is the only Starfox character I can even play as. What I want is for them to start with Diddy and then branch out significantly; not take Diddy's 25 moves, tweak the damage and knockback for 24 of them, replace the 25th and call it a day. They could also make her unique. She mainly needs to stand apart significantly, which 6/7 Echoes don't. Relying on different properties and the like to justify Echoes is a bit silly when balance patches drastically tweak them almost monthly. Let's build houses out of sand while we're at it.
like I said, if she was downloadable content she would likely receive the same polish to be as to diddy like isabelle to villager or lucas to ness.
dixie has one big thing diddy doesn't have in her ponytail, but the two of them otherwise have the exact same build.
So there are going to be some ideas carried over to an extent. Just kinda how it works, they're gonna use what they can to work with to keep the workflow easy.
imo since she was initially going to be tag teaming with diddy anyways in brawl, I dont see the initial concept for the two of them to be that radically different in the first place. They can certainly expand her to focus more on "hair combat", since it is such a major part of her character model and stuff, but I dont doubt we would be seeing basic normals to mirror diddy's like down tilt / dair / fair / jab. Probably with property adjustments as I said so they aren't one to one.
It's cool and understandable to want new and unique content, but to undermine the probability that she benefits from potentially being quicker and easier to implement is weird to me. I mean sure, the 6/7 characters you discussed could be doing crazy new stuff instead of being "X" 2.
But at least they are playable in the game, something Dixie currently isn't y'know? How is that a bad thing?
Not everyone would be satisfied with this notion(especially if they already use the original character who represents the move set more to their history), really this whole thing about it should be ended since it's not only causing arguments but they already stated that we're not getting echoes as dlc while their working on the next batch of characters which already had mild concerns since the worries of the virus causing possible delays.
Not everyone would be satisfied with this notion(especially if they already use the original character who represents the move set more to their history), really this whole thing about it should be ended since it's not only causing arguments but they already stated that we're not getting echoes as dlc while their working on the next batch of characters which already had mild concerns since the worries of the virus causing possible delays.
...They never actually stated Echoes weren't happening during Fighter's Pass 2.
But it's highly doubtful anyway. It doesn't seem worth the character pack, so it makes sense people think it won't happen.
The only thing that's at best clear is bonus characters seem to have no chance. Sakurai's column on DLC implies it's these 6 characters and that's it. While he's said the same thing for the previous set, it's also implied by "coming to the end of the game's lifespan".
Besides that, the Coronavirus is a pretty good reason to believe they're not going to try and do extra work at this point. We may need to wait as long as possible for it all to come out. It's possible it may come out later than planned for all of it if delays are necessary. On the other hand, if they get stuff done early, bonus characters are plausible(but not likely).
like I said, if she was downloadable content she would likely receive the same polish to be as to diddy like isabelle to villager or lucas to ness.
dixie has one big thing diddy doesn't have in her ponytail, but the two of them otherwise have the exact same build.
So there are going to be some ideas carried over to an extent. Just kinda how it works, they're gonna use what they can to work with to keep the workflow easy.
imo since she was initially going to be tag teaming with diddy anyways in brawl, I dont see the initial concept for the two of them to be that radically different in the first place. They can certainly expand her to focus more on "hair combat", since it is such a major part of her character model and stuff, but I dont doubt we would be seeing basic normals to mirror diddy's like down tilt / dair / fair / jab. Probably with property adjustments as I said so they aren't one to one.
It's cool and understandable to want new and unique content, but to undermine the probability that she benefits from potentially being quicker and easier to implement is weird to me. I mean sure, the 6/7 characters you discussed could be doing crazy new stuff instead of being "X" 2.
But at least they are playable in the game, something Dixie currently isn't y'know? How is that a bad thing?
Yeah I'm fine with her being as differentiated as Isabelle, Lucas and Wolf are; ideally I'm shooting for unique to keep the creativity flowing at the bare minimum, but those levels and others like Luigi are acceptable. My issue comes up when she's suggested for Echo status and people use Ken to justify it.
As for the tagteam, from my understanding people assumed Diddy and Dixie would be monkey Ice Climbers, but I'm not too sure about that. For that to work they'd need to be like Popo and Nana moving and attacking the same way at the same time. So in that scenario she can be just like Diddy, but if they wanted to reflect DKC they'd need to swap in and out; this is where it gets interesting, as the Diddy/Dixie duo would be a transformation character like Zelda/Sheik and the Pokemon Trainer. Transformation characters have enough distinction to justify swapping out, so those 2 would likely have had their own sets to keep switching from being redundant. We switch from Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard for certain situations and we used to switch from Zelda to Sheik for similar reasons. In the tagteam scenario Diddy and Dixie would be swapped for different reasons, just like they were in DKC games. The point I'm making is that they would've stood out quite a bit if they got in as planned. Why they didn't I'm not sure.
Hope everyone is still doing well during these times. I honestly have more freedom to pump out some artwork, so if y'all have ideas regarding our 5-Limbed Kong feel free to share
There's nothing wrong with using characters as a base. Wolf is the only Starfox character I can even play as. What I want is for them to start with Diddy and then branch out significantly; not take Diddy's 25 moves, tweak the damage and knockback for 24 of them, replace the 25th and call it a day. They could also make her unique. She mainly needs to stand apart significantly, which 6/7 Echoes don't. Relying on different properties and the like to justify Echoes is a bit silly when balance patches drastically tweak them almost monthly. Let's build houses out of sand while we're at it.
You and others keep spouting 6/7, and I'm sorry, but that's just not gonna cut it for me.
Echoes replaced clones. If you want to consider it only 6 that stayed the same, with Ken different, then please add in Lucas, Luigi, Ganondorf, Dr Mario, Pichu, Falco, and the rest of the like to the conversation. I think the variation in terminology kills an argument that half the time is the same conversation. When it is used as an example of 'Isabelle to Villager,' introduced in this game as a new character, I think the point is pretty clear. There is not a 'line' between echo characters and semi-clones, there is a spectrum, and each character based on another is at varying points on this spectrum.
You and others keep spouting 6/7, and I'm sorry, but that's just not gonna cut it for me.
Echoes replaced clones. If you want to consider it only 6 that stayed the same, with Ken different, then please add in Lucas, Luigi, Ganondorf, Dr Mario, Pichu, Falco, and the rest of the like to the conversation. I think the variation in terminology kills an argument that half the time is the same conversation. When it is used as an example of 'Isabelle to Villager,' introduced in this game as a new character, I think the point is pretty clear. There is not a 'line' between echo characters and semi-clones, there is a spectrum, and each character based on another is at varying points on this spectrum.
Echoes are at best defined hard by two things; they must use the same bodyshape from the original target and they can be stacked with their original base. The whole weight/general damage values/etc. seems a lot more arbitrary.
But yeah, they're a "type" of clone, more specifically. They're just a special kind.
Worth noting Semi-Clone is a fan term as well. Sakurai's never used it. He's only used Clone and Echo. Though I think Semi-Clone is a good term too, as they massively deviate from their base. A regular clone is still pretty similar in many regard. Echo just shares the same bodyshape but is labeled one too(including their numbers).
There's definitely a point when it's arbitrary, as Dr. Mario could easily be labeled one without issues. It seems really the biggest thing is that he was officially called a clone in Melee and is just keeping the labeling. Maybe the whole weight thing matters, as Ken deviates a good amount from Ryu(and sometimes people use the term Semi-Echo for him alone... which isn't really a bad one, I guess? Dr. Mario is overall more unique, but by very little, honestly).
Either way, an Echo is an official term and they have a specific number labeling to designate them as such. To say they're the same thing as clones is incorrect. But I agree that the differences get kind of silly. And yeah, it's definitely a spectrum, no doubt.
You and others keep spouting 6/7, and I'm sorry, but that's just not gonna cut it for me.
Echoes replaced clones. If you want to consider it only 6 that stayed the same, with Ken different, then please add in Lucas, Luigi, Ganondorf, Dr Mario, Pichu, Falco, and the rest of the like to the conversation. I think the variation in terminology kills an argument that half the time is the same conversation. When it is used as an example of 'Isabelle to Villager,' introduced in this game as a new character, I think the point is pretty clear. There is not a 'line' between echo characters and semi-clones, there is a spectrum, and each character based on another is at varying points on this spectrum.
If you're using the term "Echo" to refer to characters that Smash doesn't refer to as such, it's you who's in the wrong, and you can't blame people for not understanding that you actually mean something different.
You and others keep spouting 6/7, and I'm sorry, but that's just not gonna cut it for me.
Echoes replaced clones. If you want to consider it only 6 that stayed the same, with Ken different, then please add in Lucas, Luigi, Ganondorf, Dr Mario, Pichu, Falco, and the rest of the like to the conversation. I think the variation in terminology kills an argument that half the time is the same conversation. When it is used as an example of 'Isabelle to Villager,' introduced in this game as a new character, I think the point is pretty clear. There is not a 'line' between echo characters and semi-clones, there is a spectrum, and each character based on another is at varying points on this spectrum.
Oh please, we were specifically told in interviews to treat Echoes as bonus meals added to a main course, shown on the Official Site that Echoes are literally their base character's number with an asterisk added (that asterisk being an epsilon) and shown on the Character Select Screen right next to their base. We even have the option to combine the Echo with their original on the CSS. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of shared assets, animations, attack sequences. We see exactly where they fall on this spectrum. Do we have all that in common with the Semi-Clones?
"That's just not gonna cut it for [you]" because you don't want it to. If outright confirmation from Sakurai multiple times, Official Site layout, Character Select Screen Layout, in-game data, identical Animations/Jabs/Tilts/Smashes/Aerials/Throws/Dash Attacks and Specials all don't give you a clue as to the differences between an Echo and what we as fans call a Semi-Clone, then nothing will. You're plugging your ears and quadrupling down, which won't work here. This is tempting me to do yet another collage comparing the Lylat crew, the Mario Bros + Doc, Links, Pikas, PK Kids, Animal Crossing Residents and Falcon/Ganondorf. I guarantee you those collages will have far less in common with the first.
Speaking of the Semi-Clones, I addressed them multiple times, including the post you quoted. I was treating your replies as good-faith, but now you're coming off as "Look I wanna believe what I wanna believe, BirthNote...no matter what you or the evidence says." You're free to do that, but know that we're gonna exhaust this conversation as I go from lurking to directly countering your points. Splitting hairs, relying on Ken and trying to pretend Isabelle and the others are in the same boat as Lucina won't help.
If you're using the term "Echo" to refer to characters that Smash doesn't refer to as such, it's you who's in the wrong, and you can't blame people for not understanding that you actually mean something different.
Oh please, we were specifically told in interviews to treat Echoes as bonus meals added to a main course, shown on the Official Site that Echoes are literally their base character's number with an asterisk added (that asterisk being an epsilon) and shown on the Character Select Screen right next to their base. We even have the option to combine the Echo with their original on the CSS. Not to mention the overwhelming majority of shared assets, animations, attack sequences. We see exactly where they fall on this spectrum. Do we have all that in common with the Semi-Clones?
"That's just not gonna cut it for [you]" because you don't want it to. If outright confirmation from Sakurai multiple times, Official Site layout, Character Select Screen Layout, in-game data, identical Animations/Jabs/Tilts/Smashes/Aerials/Throws/Dash Attacks and Specials all don't give you a clue as to the differences between an Echo and what we as fans call a Semi-Clone, then nothing will. You're plugging your ears and quadrupling down, which won't work here. This is tempting me to do yet another collage comparing the Lylat crew, the Mario Bros + Doc, Links, Pikas, PK Kids, Animal Crossing Residents and Falcon/Ganondorf. I guarantee you those collages will have far less in common with the first.
Speaking of the Semi-Clones, I addressed them multiple times, including the post you quoted. I was treating your replies as good-faith, but now you're coming off as "Look I wanna believe what I wanna believe, BirthNote...no matter what you or the evidence says." You're free to do that, but know that we're gonna exhaust this conversation as I go from lurking to directly countering your points. Splitting hairs, relying on Ken and trying to pretend Isabelle and the others are in the same boat as Lucina won't help.
Evidence... shows that Echoes are a term that exist in Ultimate. Literally not before, because characters were rebranded. By your own logic, in Smash 4, Dark Pit was not an echo. Because the term wasn't official. Now... does that make sense? Absolutely not.
Look, you actually make many good points (besides the-what reads as bratty- tone, I'll pass on that, thanks); and again, I acknowledge that there is a difference between Wolf and Daisy.
Yet, we were explicitly told that echoes being the 'extra,' an article you quote from Sm4sh, before echoes were 'technically' a thing, which directly shows that characters were rebranded for just such a purpose- MARKETING. We have gotten them since the beginning. In fact, the language Sakurai used to describe echoes is THE SAME LANGUAGE HE USED TO DESCRIBE THE SIX "CLONES" IN MELEE. They were all extras- Ganondorf through Lucina. They were All described in nearly the EXACT SAME WAY.
That's also fact, and please, go about disputing, or at least attempting to do so. I'll point out the sentence above from you: "Outright confirmation from Sakurai multiple times...what we as fans call a Semi-Clone." Do you see the contradiction in your logic? You yourself accuse me of believing what I want to, and within a matter of one line of text, tell me that what fans call a character is confirmation directly from Sakurai.
Just as a slight break from the back and forth about clones/echos, I've some thoughts about if/when we get another 3D DK title. While I do want one more 2D game essentially close out the Returns trilogy, another dip into the three dimensional waters for Donkey Kong does feel like its somewhat overdue.
I was personally reticent to the idea for a while given that DK64 was (in my estimation) a mistep in focus and design. However there have been two series remakes that I've played in the last year and a half that have changed my mind on it: Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon. In a lot of ways, they feel like the real 3D successors to what DKC was; the former with the tricky platforming and animal buddies, while the latter has the energetically paced exploration and depth via enemy types.
A 3D DK game that took the best elements of both, allowing just enough space in searching for collectibles while still keeping the core running and jumping focused level design; that's a game that really would be the true follow up on the SNES trilogy. Doubly so if the use of multiple characters (Donkey Kong emphasizing strength over speed, Dixie as the inverse, and Diddy as the balanced) that could encourage replayability without the excess collections that hurt the 64 release so much. Throw in Cranky as an unlockable character (perhaps with a gimmick that differentiates him from the others) and you have a title that would be distinct as a DK game while still remaining true to its best elements.
Hey everyone, so if y'all could come up with your own minecart level, what type of setting would you put it in, and what would you include in it? I remember Retro Studios had concept art of a silhouette minecart stage in DKCR; I'd go with that personally, at a new Kremland. A simple level that has a lot of dazzling spectacle but is still fast paced and difficult. It wouldn't be too flashy as I don't want to cause seizures, but I'd have it be a very pretty on-rails level.
Just as a slight break from the back and forth about clones/echos, I've some thoughts about if/when we get another 3D DK title. While I do want one more 2D game essentially close out the Returns trilogy, another dip into the three dimensional waters for Donkey Kong does feel like its somewhat overdue.
I was personally reticent to the idea for a while given that DK64 was (in my estimation) a mistep in focus and design. However there have been two series remakes that I've played in the last year and a half that have changed my mind on it: Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon. In a lot of ways, they feel like the real 3D successors to what DKC was; the former with the tricky platforming and animal buddies, while the latter has the energetically paced exploration and depth via enemy types.
A 3D DK game that took the best elements of both, allowing just enough space in searching for collectibles while still keeping the core running and jumping focused level design; that's a game that really would be the true follow up on the SNES trilogy. Doubly so if the use of multiple characters (Donkey Kong emphasizing strength over speed, Dixie as the inverse, and Diddy as the balanced) that could encourage replayability without the excess collections that hurt the 64 release so much. Throw in Cranky as an unlockable character (perhaps with a gimmick that differentiates him from the others) and you have a title that would be distinct as a DK game while still remaining true to its best elements.
I'd be down for that, especially if they expand the momentum based physics and add a couple brand new character-specific abilities and it'd just get better as you play.
Just as a slight break from the back and forth about clones/echos, I've some thoughts about if/when we get another 3D DK title. While I do want one more 2D game essentially close out the Returns trilogy, another dip into the three dimensional waters for Donkey Kong does feel like its somewhat overdue.
I was personally reticent to the idea for a while given that DK64 was (in my estimation) a mistep in focus and design. However there have been two series remakes that I've played in the last year and a half that have changed my mind on it: Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon. In a lot of ways, they feel like the real 3D successors to what DKC was; the former with the tricky platforming and animal buddies, while the latter has the energetically paced exploration and depth via enemy types.
A 3D DK game that took the best elements of both, allowing just enough space in searching for collectibles while still keeping the core running and jumping focused level design; that's a game that really would be the true follow up on the SNES trilogy. Doubly so if the use of multiple characters (Donkey Kong emphasizing strength over speed, Dixie as the inverse, and Diddy as the balanced) that could encourage replayability without the excess collections that hurt the 64 release so much. Throw in Cranky as an unlockable character (perhaps with a gimmick that differentiates him from the others) and you have a title that would be distinct as a DK game while still remaining true to its best elements.
My first full DK game was 64- I've gotta say, I'm all #teamsequel. I loved the switching of Kongs. I loved the many collectibles. I loved the mini games. I loved the cutscenes. It's one of my fondest remembered games.
As far as dividing opinions, DK64 is a bit like Sonic Adventure 1/2 in that regard, To a generation of fans, its consistently enjoyable experience with memorable characters, vast levels, and a distinct charm to the cartoonish tone that's fun. To a lot of us older DKC trilogy fans, it was an unfortunate deviation away from the best elements of the SNES games, becoming a Banjo Kazooie title with a DK skin (that wasn't even as tightly focused as B/K was) that lost the realistic aesthetics and energetic platforming that made those titles so enduring to us.
Its hard to say which way Nintendo would go if they did decide to make DK 3D again, though given they've done Mario titles that were open world and ones more arcade like in their linear focus? Could go either way.
As far as dividing opinions, DK64 is a bit like Sonic Adventure 1/2 in that regard, To a generation of fans, its consistently enjoyable experience with memorable characters, vast levels, and a distinct charm to the cartoonish tone that's fun. To a lot of us older DKC trilogy fans, it was an unfortunate deviation away from the best elements of the SNES games, becoming a Banjo Kazooie title with a DK skin (that wasn't even as tightly focused as B/K was) that lost the realistic aesthetics and energetic platforming that made those titles so enduring to us.
Its hard to say which way Nintendo would go if they did decide to make DK 3D again, though given they've done Mario titles that were open world and ones more arcade like in their linear focus? Could go either way.
Part of that is rooted in Nintendo often doesn't feel like they quite know what to do with DK at times, and thus there's not much investment in it as it could have (yet another problem it shares with Sonic in fact). Nintendo had direct control over the franchise for 10 years between Rare and Retro and we got racing games that weren't as fun as Diddy Kong Racing, platformers not as deep as either the DKC trilogy or 64, and bongo rhythm titles. If one is fond of those games, more power to them, but DK in the aughts doesn't seem to have quite the nostalgia for it the periods before or after it do.
Realistically, I'd be happy with any new DK game that came out, 2D/3D/liner/open world, it wouldn't matter. Just do something worthwhile with the franchise again.
OK I originally made a really long essay detailing my stance on DK64 but then I realized I can say the same thing with one sentence:
The game is great in many ways and I can see why its so beloved even with its flaws, but the absence of Dixie Kong and the photorealistic ambiance of the SNES trilogy means that it lacks my two favorite aspects of the series, and as such isn't something I personally consider a definitive DK experience.
With that said, I tend to prefer 3D platformers to 2D platformers in general, and I would definitely love to see the franchise return to 3D at some point.
I like jigsaw puzzles. I also like DKC. And because of this, I especially like DKC jigsaw puzzles. Here are variants for each of the SNES trilogy, with some other puzzles for each game in the replies.
I do give '64 props for creating Hideout Helm though. It was such a high-stakes finale for me at the time that my 7 year old self was sweating bullets. I wouldn't feel that level of anxiety and much MUCH more from a video game, until I did the Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2. Nothing has topped that since, cuz there was a real danger of failing.
As far as dividing opinions, DK64 is a bit like Sonic Adventure 1/2 in that regard, To a generation of fans, its consistently enjoyable experience with memorable characters, vast levels, and a distinct charm to the cartoonish tone that's fun. To a lot of us older DKC trilogy fans, it was an unfortunate deviation away from the best elements of the SNES games, becoming a Banjo Kazooie title with a DK skin (that wasn't even as tightly focused as B/K was) that lost the realistic aesthetics and energetic platforming that made those titles so enduring to us.
Its hard to say which way Nintendo would go if they did decide to make DK 3D again, though given they've done Mario titles that were open world and ones more arcade like in their linear focus? Could go either way.
I'm in between. I definitely was on the boat of the original DKC SNES games, grew up with them. I was 4 when I was playing the original DKC, it helped me improve my dexterity in a significant way in those times. The platformer games where literally part of my upbringing in many ways. DKC2 being my all time favourite game.
But I still love DK64. I don't like every element out of it, but it's an excellent game by design, and especially by its overall CHARM and PRESENTATION. I have a hard time thinking of any other game that matches these levels of charm and presentation in its overall delivery. I liked the guns, many Kongs, cutscenes, many moves you could use, and its overall whimsical tone. Back in the day, I enjoyed it more than Banjo-Kazooie. Retrospectively, yes Banjo was the better game, sure. But I enjoyed DK64 more. A remaster with just fixed controls on the mini games would be everything my childhood nostalgia asks for.
DK64 was the peak of Donkey Kong presentation, and it did well because of the SNES platformer making the characters loveable and popular. It's not the peak of quality, that was DKC2, but DK64 was great in many aspects. I'll continue to defend it, because I think it was a great move by Rare and I would've loved to see them continue making different games with the DKC cast that aren't platformers. This might be partly the reason why Nintendo only wants to make DKC platformers honestly, as every other thing DK related isn't really appreciated.
Hope everyone is still doing well during these times. I honestly have more freedom to pump out some artwork, so if y'all have ideas regarding our 5-Limbed Kong feel free to share
Oh, probably. It seems like DKC1 and DK64 are the big important Donkey Kong games to the general gaming public (with Returns being an arguable third). DKC2 is still very popular (it sold almost as much as DK64 and is the highest-selling SNES game to never be bundled with the console), but as a sequel, it appeals to a slightly more niche audience, and is also apparently not worthy of being on the SNES Classic.
I think for Dixie, it's more than just not being included in DK64. Ever since the Gamecube era, DK and Diddy have been pushed a lot more as THE power duo of the series, leaving Dixie as a third wheel. A lot of games from this time period tended to include her as a primary character only if a third character is needed, such as Mario Superstar Baseball or Mario Hoops 3-on-3. Otherwise she tended to be relegated to less important roles, such as a multiplayer-only characters, or just not have her in the game at all like in Donkey Konga or DKC Returns.
Even when she did make her grand return in Tropical Freeze, she essentially functioned as a power-up, and shared that distinction with Diddy and Cranky. She can be controlled directly by a second player or by unlocking hard mode, but I imagine a lot of players never bothered with either anyway.
At the very least, she's never actually been an NPC outside of Smash, so she's got that going for her.
I like DK64, it's not as well polished as the 3D Marios or Banjo-Kazooie. But it's a fun game regardless. I have been playing it for a while without rushing and taking my time to enjoy everything it offers while I play other games. When you are activately trying to beat it as fast as possible to rush to another game, is when you start to get frustrated. Because I think Tag Barrels are everywhere, so the backtracking is not as bad, and the characters are very fun to play (My favorite to play as is Tiny for "Echo fighter" reasons). The only thing I dislike are the obnoxious bonuses like the Beavers and that beetle race (Curse you, whoever designed that last curve).
I think if a Gamecube sequel had been released fixing all its flaws, or you even simpler, a 3DS version like Ocarina of Time with QoL improvements like switching Kongs with the touch screen, it would be better appreciated, and Nintendo would be more open to make more 3D Donkey Kong games.
Either way, I think DK's style in 3D could be similar to Mario 3D World's controls but faster, some inspiration from Sonic's Boost style in level design (Linear but a lot of things happen when you are traversing it), Crash in level ambience (Just look at the first level of Crash 1 on the N. Sane Trilogy) and of course, the levels designs being memorable. That would nail what makes DKC special in 3D form.
More or less the same. Maybe some K. Rool supporters would have remained posting here. But outside that I don't see a big difference.
What killed her popularity (And chances of joining Smash) was the inactivity of the DK franchise on the 2000s.
Putting her in Mario Kart or more spin offs like Mario Hoops 3 on 3 would have made her stay popular like Diddy was, but no.....
DKC2 and Chrono Trigger's abscence from that console made me pass on it. I know you can do some forbidden magic to add whatever the game you want, But it wasn't worth it to spend the money if Nintendo doesn't even acknowledge DKC2 as a SNES masterpiece. And I already owned those games on SNES, Wii VC, DKC2 on Wii U VC and Chrono Trigger on Steam (All hail mods) anyway.
More or less the same. Maybe some K. Rool supporters would have remained posting here. But outside that I don't see a big difference.
What killed her popularity (And chances of joining Smash) was the inactivity of the DK franchise on the 2000s.
Putting her in Mario Kart or more spin offs like Mario Hoops 3 on 3 would have made her stay popular like Diddy was, but no.....
I don't understand why that is. She is literally the star of the 3rd SNES game her name is even in the title. I don't get why Nintendo doesn't treat her similar to Diddy.
Nintendo's generally hit and miss with references to the DKC trilogy or 64. There will be a game like Barrel Blast filled with characters from it, and then they'll have Jungle run that features DK only. Honestly I think the reason Diddy got featured as much as he did was because DK having a sidekick for stuff like Double Dash and the Mario spin-offs made sense (every Mario needs his Luigi after all). As noted above Dixie has much less direct connection Donkey Kong hiimself and as a result was likely not considered as much for showing up anywhere unless they needed another rep from the franchise.
Nintendo's generally hit and miss with references to the DKC trilogy or 64. There will be a game like Barrel Blast filled with characters from it, and then they'll have Jungle run that features DK only. Honestly I think the reason Diddy got featured as much as he did was because DK having a sidekick for stuff like Double Dash and the Mario spin-offs made sense (every Mario needs his Luigi after all). As noted above Dixie has much less direct connection Donkey Kong hiimself and as a result was likely not considered as much for showing up anywhere unless they needed another rep from the franchise.
Sometimes I feel like Nintendo just pretends Miyamoto's work on the original DK only exists while Rare's work on the DKC games does not. Nintendo clearly references the old arcade DK much, MUCH more than DKC.
I don't understand why that is. She is literally the star of the 3rd SNES game her name is even in the title. I don't get why Nintendo doesn't treat her similar to Diddy.
DKC3 is definitely the odd duck in the bunch, DKC2 was highly critically acclaimed and more or less Diddy's rise to stardom. Diddy was marketed as just as important as DK was back in the day, even since DKC1. They never pushed for Dixie all that hard. Her absence in DK64 was to focus more on DK and Diddy's popularity.
It was simply Rare and Nintendo pushing more for Diddy back in that day. Diddy also became the star of Diddy Kong Racing of course, you could even argue that he was becoming bigger of an icon under Rare's wing than Donkey Kong himself.
This is also why I was upset for Diddy being absent in Melee, and being degraded to a mere power up ever since DKC Returns. However, it was even worse in Tropical Freeze.
Personally, I would want them to push Diddy's popularity even more. He was also by far the most popular character of DK64.
