Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!

[SeashoreWar]

What the hell you actually did it? I love you.

Well you did ask

I did get to change the Enguarde and Squitter sets. Enguarde got a lot of changes done to it as well as Clapper making a comeback! Squitter only got the seat changed lol.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

In my 3 month amount of time away from Smashboards, I've seen all 14,000,605 ways the DLC could possibly go and their is only 1 way Dixie makes it into the roster...



Echo! (through a free software update...)

I'm sorry BirthNote

Holy ****! I haven't seen you in awhile. Welcome back.

Nooooooooooooo......!!! Why her!?

My heart... Doesn't feel so good right now...

Me: Mr. Sakurai... I'm not feeling so good.

 

[osby]

To be honest guys, I wish the clone system never existed in Smash because If it didn't, we would have Ganondorf and Falco as unique characters with unique movesets. I'm too sure about all the other clones fates in that alternate universe since the majority of them wouldn't have no chance in *** if the clone system never existed. Ganondorf and Falco I believe 100% percent would have still made it into the roster in that alternate timeline, but probably not in Melee since Wario, Dedede, Pit, Sonic, and Snake were planned but didn't make it due to time constraints. In a reality were time didn't push Sakurai to put in clones in Melee, those 5 would have debut in Melee instead of Brawl.

How does this make any sense? The reason there were 6 clones in Melee is that there wasn't any time to add another single unique character. Saying 5 more unique characters could have made it in to Melee roster is objectively false, unless Sakurai and his team didn't get substantially more development time.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

How does this make any sense? The reason there were 6 clones in Melee is that there wasn't any time to add another single unique character. Saying 5 more unique characters could have made it in to Melee roster is objectively false, unless Sakurai and his team didn't get substantially more development time.

Like I said Wario, Dedede, Pit, Sonic, and Snake were planned for Melee and had Melee's development lasted another year or two in a alternate timeline, those guys would have gotten into Melee first instead of Brawl. That's the only timeline I could see the clone system not coming into existence.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Like I said Wario, Dedede, Pit, Sonic, and Snake were planned for Melee and had Melee's development lasted another year or two in a alternate timeline, those guys would have gotten into Melee first instead of Brawl. That's the only timeline I could see the clone system not coming into existence.

None of these characters were "planned" for Melee. Snake and Sonic were requested by their creators but it was too late by then. Wario would have been added if there was time for another, but there wasn't. Dedede and Pit were never a thing as far as I know.

Given what we know, it may be true that Sonic, Snake, and Wario could have gotten into Melee with another year of development, but no one can say for sure regardless.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

None of these characters were "planned" for Melee. Snake and Sonic were requested by their creators but it was too late by then. Wario would have been added if there was time for another, but there wasn't. Dedede and Pit were never a thing as far as I know.

Given what we know, it may be true that Sonic, Snake, and Wario could have gotten into Melee with another year of development, but no one can say for sure regardless.

Dedede and Pit were planned for 64, so I'm assuming a lot of people including myself thought they were planned for Melee as well.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Dedede and Pit were planned for 64, so I'm assuming a lot of people including myself thought they were planned for Melee as well.

Being planned for Brawl didn't mean Dixie was planned for Smash 4. Being planned for Smash 4 didn't mean Chorus Kids were planned for Ultimate.
Dedede was only mentioned on one Japanese Website and Pit was completely a rumor. There were also rumors that Pit's wings were difficult to animate on the N64 and there were space constraints, while Dedede was excluded because Sakurai didn't want to "overrepresent" the Kirby series at the time (some might argue this is ironic considering Fire Emblem's current representation, and Mario and Pokemon to an extent). Time, while being an enormous factor, certainly wasn't the only one.

 

[osby]

(some might argue this is ironic considering Fire Emblem's current representation).

Sakurai never worked on Fire Emblem, though.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Sakurai never worked on Fire Emblem, though.

Yeah, and at this point it's more like Pokémon, only without the worldwide common knowledge status beyond "kinda niche" so that enough people can reasonably assume it'll get a new character related to the most recent game every time, without batting an eye.

Meanwhile, Mario Kart's clone additions make far less sense overall. Metal versions are one thing, but did we really need so many babies and a few animal suit versions on top of it? I hope the next game won't just resort to this: https://aminoapps.com/c/mario-kart/...t-9-roster/2EVg_GDsNumGkeMbKMGeEzVMvEab2QWb3L

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Sakurai never worked on Fire Emblem, though.

I'm fine with it as it is TBH (because I actually like Fire Emblem personally), I just tend to see a lot of complaining in the community on this aspect, even if Sakurai didn't work on the series personally, he does give it a lot of love, along with Kid Icarus, Mario, and Pokemon (and Metroid as of Ultimate).

Yeah, and at this point it's more like Pokémon, only without the worldwide common knowledge status beyond "kinda niche" so that enough people can reasonably assume it'll get a new character related to the most recent game every time, without batting an eye.

Meanwhile, Mario Kart's clone additions make far less sense overall. Metal versions are one thing, but did we really need so many babies and a few animal suit versions on top of it? I hope the next game won't just resort to this: https://aminoapps.com/c/mario-kart/...t-9-roster/2EVg_GDsNumGkeMbKMGeEzVMvEab2QWb3L

Especially since the characters don't even have nearly as much gameplay differences as Smash Bros. It's kinda embarrassing that the roster just barely reaches the halfway mark compared to the size of the Smash roster, when literally every character in the game is only as different as clones are in Smash (different physics and all). I could understand if the clones were easier because they could just copy animations, but Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach and the like actually have different animations, they literally put the effort of making new characters into clones.

Meanwhile, Birdo, the DKC characters (Diddy, Dixie, Funky, Tiny, and K. Rool), the Warioware, Subcon, and RPG characters are consistently ignored over and over again in favor of Babies and Power up versions of pre-existing characters.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

the baby characters do have their audience, its just not anyone over the age of like seven. they're a little bit overkill in mk8 but i dont mind them as a concept.

if we get a new mario kart anytime soon i would love to see them use more of their actually unique characters, especially if they pulled from older games that havent been represented in a while. maybe they could even do like smash and bring back every character from mario kart history

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Dedede and Pit were planned for 64, so I'm assuming a lot of people including myself thought they were planned for Melee as well.

Dedede, yes. Pit, no. Refer to this.

 

[TheYungLink]

I don't like Mario Kart's roster as much as I'd like to, either, but it's less of a problem for me because I play Mario Kart for the racetracks, as I imagine most people do. In Smash, characters are more meaningful so naturally we gravitate to them far more often.

Hmm...actually, lemme make a Mario Kart fan roster real quick anyway for funsies (edit: this actually took me about 4 hours of thinking, so NOT quick lol). Gonna do an "Everyone is Here!" thing like Smash Ultimate did and bring back all the playable characters from the whole series, including the Namco ones from the GP games cuz why not.

Not counting Female Villager and Inkling Boy (I think of them as alts, like Gold Mario and Tunic of the Wild Link), there are 54 characters in the whole series, as shown below in a similar "order by debut" to Ultimate.

Here are the characters I'd add. The DK characters are in the top row in yellow if you're looking for them.

All the DK additions we could want, and more, cuz DK Jr. sticks around. Also, it's cool that, if Cranky is DK's grandfather, and Jr. his father (though obv. depicted in a childlike design here for obvious reasons), then all 3 generations of the Donkey Kong name are all in the same game together. Neat!

As for everyone else, I tried to bring a balance between old, obscure characters, and recognizable ones from newer games, while still adding a few surprises. I wanted something from Super Mario Maker, for example, so I added Mary O. for the heck of it. I'm also sure that when it comes to WarioWare characters in Mario Kart, not everyone goes for Mike and 5-Volt.

I didn't add any third-party characters, I think having Namco's five from the GP games is more than enough, though I suppose the Super Mario RPG additions count. I did add a 5 extra non-Mario characters, though. I felt Splatoon and Zelda should get one more character each, and added Captain Falcon and Excite Biker because they already have race tracks in the game. Kirby was added because I want my darn Kirby Air Ride x Mario Kart crossover dammit.

Spoiler: All these characters organized in the way I like

If this looks like too many characters, then by all means let's cut everyone except Dry Bowser in the second row, gahahahaha

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I don't like Mario Kart's roster as much as I'd like to, either, but it's less of a problem for me because I play Mario Kart for the racetracks, as I imagine most people do. In Smash, characters are more meaningful so naturally we gravitate to them far more often.

Hmm...actually, lemme make a Mario Kart fan roster real quick anyway for funsies (edit: this actually took me about 4 hours of thinking, so NOT quick lol). Gonna do an "Everyone is Here!" thing like Smash Ultimate did and bring back all the playable characters from the whole series, including the Namco ones from the GP games cuz why not.

Not counting Female Villager and Inkling Boy (I think of them as alts, like Gold Mario and Tunic of the Wild Link), there are 54 characters in the whole series, as shown below in a similar "order by debut" to Ultimate.

Here are the characters I'd add. The DK characters are in the top row in yellow if you're looking for them.

All the DK additions we could want, and more, cuz DK Jr. sticks around. Also, it's cool that, if Cranky is DK's grandfather, and Jr. his father (though obv. depicted in a childlike design here for obvious reasons), then all 3 generations of the Donkey Kong name are all in the same game together. Neat!

As for everyone else, I tried to bring a balance between old, obscure characters, and recognizable ones from newer games, while still adding a few surprises. I wanted something from Super Mario Maker, for example, so I added Mary O. for the heck of it. I'm also sure that when it comes to WarioWare characters in Mario Kart, not everyone goes for Mike and 5-Volt.

I didn't add any third-party characters, I think having Namco's five from the GP games is more than enough, though I suppose the Super Mario RPG additions count. I did add a 5 extra non-Mario characters, though. I felt Splatoon and Zelda should get one more character each, and added Captain Falcon and Excite Biker because they already have race tracks in the game. Kirby was added because I want my darn Kirby Air Ride x Mario Kart crossover dammit.

Spoiler: All these characters organized in the way I like

If this looks like too many characters, then by all means let's cut everyone except Dry Bowser in the second row, gahahahaha

Great List. I'd add some Paper Mario partners (Koops/Kooper, Vivian, Lakilester, Goombella, etc.) and Princess Zelda and Toon Zelda/Tetra there as well.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Cranky is currently being covered on the RTC thread, so those who go there, please vouch for him. Dixie takes priority, but he is important too.

 

[ChronoBound]

Had time to work on the next set for Mario Kart! It's Rambi and Squawks' time to shine. I definitely wanna go back and add animal crate designs to Enguarde and Squitter now. As well as do a full set for Enguarde!

Fantastic work as always. Very well done.

So this probably has been brought up before, but do you think it's possible Nintendo might throw out some echo fighters separately from the Fighter Pass to keep interest in the game going? I honestly think this might happen, I have to assume Nintendo is going to want to keep updating Ultimate as much as they can, especially when considering how well Ultimate is selling right now. I don't think Nintendo wants that gravy train to stop any time soon.

How likely do you guys think this is? And if this did happen, is it possible that Dixie would be made available this way? I don't want Dixie to be an echo, but if there's no chance of Dixie ever getting in otherwise...I mean, it's better than nothing right?

I have said a few times before that one of the few scenarios where Dixie Kong still is able to make it onto Ultimate's roster (without being a part of the Fighter's Pass) is being among two or three echo fighters that Sakurai decided to throw in as DLC. Personally, I would still be happy with this (and as I said before, if Dixie was an echo under such a scenario, she would likely be among the most different echos being closer to Ken than Daisy). Dixie Kong being on Ultimate's roster would be a massive miracle regardless of what kind of fighter she would end up as simply due to the present circumstances and the competition she faces even if one of those few routes to get on the roster were to arise (whether it would be additional echoes developed or a second fighter's pass).

The simple fact is we do not know what the future holds. From what I have already written in my Dixie Kong essay, I have noticed one very concerning thing regarding Dixie Kong. She is a character that which has regularly gone on long hiatuses regarding her last appearance. Dixie Kong's last game appearance was 1997's Donkey Kong Land 3, and she would not appear in another game until 2004's Donkey Konga 2, nearly seven years. While she made a slew of game appearances from 2004 to 2008, after Mario Super Sluggers, she was gone again until 2014's Tropical Freeze, which was nearly six years. It has now been FIVE years since her last new game appearance. In another two years, Dixie Kong will have beaten her longest hiatus record.

For most characters added to the roster, having a recent game appearance is a very integral factor to their selection. Dixie Kong has always had bad circumstances surround her regarding getting into Smash Bros. From not being retooled as a separate fighter when the tag team idea did not work in Brawl, to Tropical Freeze being announced too late to affect Sakurai's decision in deciding Smash 4's roster, to K. Rool getting most of the DK newcomer attention on the ballot. Dixie Kong simply does not have luck on her side.

Looking at the character's history, even getting in as an echo fighter in Ultimate would be a massive victory for her and tremendously lucky. Perhaps one of the biggest miracles for character inclusion honestly given the circumstances. Dixie Kong could always be made into a more unique fighter down the road.

Dr. Mario at one point was the cloniest clone in the series, now he is very noticeably different than Mario and much more different than many other clone type fighters in Ultimate (the echoes). Many said Pichu should never ever return because he was a character that was flat out awful and intended to be awful. Now Pichu is considered among the best fighters in Ultimate.

Dixie Kong being an echo in Ultimate will not condemn her to that fighter category perpetuity. Instead fans of the character would have to express that they would like to see the character further differentiated from Diddy Kong. Dixie Kong going from a last minute Ken-style echo to a full fledged Isabelle styled semi-clone is a pretty realistic transition if you look at how Melee's clones became semi-clones in later Smash Bros. installments.

Well if that was the case I can wait and like I said it's best not to assume any rumors especially after the Grinch leak ended up being false. I also rather her not to be stuck with a broken base like how Ganondorf and Dark Samus have. Daisy's treatment in this game also turned me away from the echo idea even further since I don't feel a tomboyish character like her should be stuck with a girlishly move set that Peach has.

Dark Samus and Daisy would never ever have made it into the roster without echoes being a thing (the same goes for every other character that was made into an echo). Daisy within Super Mario has never (or rarely) displayed different abilities than Peach, and her primary different from Peach was personality.

I actually wrote extensively how despite Dark Samus have almost no gameplay differences from Samus, Sakurai and his team were still able to capture the the character well through the character's eerie and "alien" animations.

For most supporters or fans of these characters, their inclusion as an echo fighter beats the character likely never ever making it onto the roster.

To be honest guys, I wish the clone system never existed in Smash because If it didn't, we would have Ganondorf and Falco as unique characters with unique movesets. I'm too sure about all the other clones fates in that alternate universe since the majority of them wouldn't have no chance in *** if the clone system never existed. Ganondorf and Falco I believe 100% percent would have still made it into the roster in that alternate timeline, but probably not in Melee since Wario, Dedede, Pit, Sonic, and Snake were planned but didn't make it due to time constraints. In a reality were time didn't push Sakurai to put in clones in Melee, those 5 would have debut in Melee instead of Brawl.

As I said before, Falco would never have made it into Smash Bros. period. During pre-Brawl, there would only have been strong support for Wolf and Krystal. Falco had less support than Wolf did during pre-Melee due the E3 2001 Melee trailer where Wolf made an appearance (which made many think he was going to be a part of the roster). Star Fox going into hiatus with Command, would have meant little interest in Falco during the pre-Smash 4 period (look at how much interest in Krystal collapsed after pre-Brawl). Falco had to make into Melee, or else he most likely would never have made it into the series at all.

Also, the clone system in general offered so many characters with smaller fanbases an opportunity for their character of choice to make it into the roster. For example, Roy introduced many people, including myself to the Fire Emblem series and made us fans of it. Fans of Dark Samus and Chrom thought after Brawl and Smash 4 that those characters would never make it onto the roster.

The echoes in general offered hopes and dreams to many fans of characters that thought being a part of the roster was unlikely. There is always room to be decloned in a future installment for the echoes.

It's certainly possible. The real kicker about Dixie is that they already have her Mii hat and unlike the other costumes, they can literally just paste that onto the Diddy model, adjust the moveset, and call it a day.

The Mii hat might very well be able to be recycled as an asset if Dixie is included as a fighter. However, I think most likely they will create an entirely new hair texture for Dixie Kong.

Beyond Isabelle, Chrom and Ken showed us that echoes can still be somewhat unique, for example Chrom taking Ike's Up-B despite being mostly based on Roy can be easily translated into Dixie taking DK's Up-B despite being mostly based on Diddy.
I can understand the frustration of not having her be unique, and I would certainly prefer her to be, but I would still rather have her in the game in the first place. Clones or not, simply having a spot on the roster does wonders to a character's prestige, they get to have a place in the general culture and discussion of the community, they get to be in all the fan art and comics and the web animations and the like, they get to be introduced to millions of fans who might have never heard or cared of her otherwise. If I had to make the choice, I would rather have her in the roster just for that.

I agree with this. I wrote extensively before that Dixie Kong if an echo would be at the very least as different as Chrom and more likely follow cues from Ken. I think she would at the very least have a different recovery, Final Smash, idle animations (some echoes do not), jump animation (based off of DKC2 and DKC3), run animation (based off of DKC2 and DKC3), and neutral special with different properties (Bubble Gum Pop Gun instead of Peanut Pop Gun). I could easily see her having a few a-moves utilizing her ponytail like how Ken has kicks for some of his a-moves instread of punches.

As for the second paragraph you wrote, I also very much agree. Personally, I would love to see her alongside the rest of Ultimate's stellar cast. The next game in the series will probably remove quite a bit of Ultimate's roster for one, and secondly, as mentioned earlier, we do not know what circumstances Dixie Kong will be facing when the roster for the next game is decided in the mid 2020's. She could very well be in a worse situation than she is now.

Look at Krystal as an example. The conventional wisdom after Brawl's release was that she would be a shoe-in for the next game since she was the most highly requested female newcomer at the time. Two installments later, she has not made any new appearances in her own series, and she just recently gained an Assist Trophy role.

Never ever think that a character is "inevitable" or that a character will eventually have their turn come up. This kind of mentality has been especially disastrous for Dixie Kong in particular because Dixie fans believed that just because Dixie Kong checked off all the typical criteria for character inclusion (important in their own franchise, popular, had a recent major game role) that she would be a newcomer for both Smash 4 and Ultimate. Now it is the case where she is not even a strong contender for this game's DLC. Dixie Kong could always potentially be decloned, but the opportunity to be a part of the roster, just as it is for many characters that are part of it now, is a narrow window of opportunity. Dixie Kong has already had it shut on her multiple times (not being retooled as a separate fighter in Brawl, Tropical Freeze being unveiled too late to affect Smash 4's roster, the Ballot making K. Rool be prioritized over Dixie Kong). Dixie Kong also has been gone from gaming for long stretches of time (from 1997 to 2004, 2008 to 2014, and now 2014 to ongoing).

Dixie Kong making UItimate's roster even as an echo fighter would be a profound miracle. I personally think that she is much more likely to be some sort of Isabelle style semi-clone if she is made into a newcomer for the next game, and personally I think she has the chops to be entirely unique.

Your comment about her even just being an echo grants far, far more exposure is poignant one. Just look at the example of Dark Samus. That was a character on the edge of being forgotten, yet her, miraculous, inclusion as an echo fighter led to a burst of fan art of the character and many people remembering how cool she is.

Again, I can understand this frustration, but without the clone system there would have been a far smaller roster. In games like Mario Kart I can understand being angry at 'clones' like Tanooki Mario and Pink Gold Peach because the characters in a racing game shouldn't take that much time to make, but in Smash Bros there is a big difference in development time for each individual moveset. Clones like Lucas and Wolf also aren't inherently ripped, they can be just as interesting to play as the original characters, and in some cases more interesting. A lot of people even prefer playing the clones over the original characters, even in cases of echoes. It's like adding seasoning to a dish, sure it's almost the same moveset, but there is a different flavor in how it plays.
I'd rather have the bigger roster, especially since the game's roster is so big at this point it would be almost overwhelming to have so many completely different movesets.

Aside from about half of the echoes (Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, Dark Pit), the clones have much different playstyles and matchups compared to the character that they are based off of. You are also correct that there are many people that prefer clones and echoes over the character that they are based of of.

Again, we don't even know when the next Smash Bros is, it could be a very long time from now, and Sakurai might not even return, alone assuming that Dixie's popularity doesn't wane even further by that time.

These are very important unknowns to take into account. I already mentioned some of them in my response, but I am glad you already pointed them out.

And no matter what, it's pretty much a guarantee that the next game will cut characters, so this is the last time and chance Dixie has to be able to stand alongside every single veteran in the series, and have a truly perfect roster. I'd would really rather not wait 6-10 years to have her get in a possible reboot that would have huge cuts. Having a spot on this roster would be most ideal, in any circumstance.

That is how I feel too, honestly.

I'd love Ms. Pac-Man. Impa and Octoling would also be my personal favorites to get in.

I think Impa and Octoling are among the most likely additional echoes to happen, and I was a bit surprised that they were not in the base game (especially the Octolings). Even as a possible echo fighter for a possible two or three additional slots, Dixie Kong faces IMMENSE competition. Any route Dixie Kong takes to get on Ultimate's roster (whether being an echo fighter, being part of a possible second fighter's pass, or even somehow part of the current fighter's pass) at this point is simply a miracle and overcoming tremendous odds.

I'm sorry but I'm never going to change my opinion about it, to me it would feel pointless to have her as an echo cause it not only takes away her purpose of character throughout her history but I wouldn't want to underwhelmed with how she's represented(like how I feel about Daisy) and I'm not desperate to have her on the roster just to have her in since I love Ultimate to death as it is.

Having her properly represented as her own characteristics would satisfy pretty much all her fans instead of having a broken base.

Besides that I feel like if they actually wanted her that way they would have done so considering that she has a Mii hat, an spirit that can be enhanced, two online avatars (a rarity for an NPC) and a spirit battle which has her represented by Isabelle (which opens more ideas for what they think how Dixie could work) even the devs might believe that she deserves better than that.

I believe it's better to think the possibility of her being unique at this point since it's something that brings positive thoughts rather than being puzzled about having her stuck as an echo which would have people stuck with disappointment for those who see the huge potential she has with her ponytail.

I do think Dixie Kong could still be true to herself is she was an echo fighter (ideally a Ken-style one).

As I said in prior posts, the amount of flexibility Dixie Kong has for character inclusion (inclusion as an entirely unique fighter, multiple types of semi-clones, multiple types of echoes), is one of the best arguments about why Dixie Kong fans need to be proactive for the next cycle in being heard about their desire for the character's inclusion.

I think Dixie Kong's most likely inclusion if she is ever made playable will be as some sort of semi-clone. Whether it is the Ken-style echo or the Lucas/Wolf kind (similar specials, but different everything else), or something in between (like how Falco/Roy/Ganondorf/Isabelle are).

I am thankful Dixie Kong at least received a Mii hat in Ultimate. Look at Bandana Dee, the only shoutouts he received in Ultimate were a spirit (that is only available by enhancing a Waddle Dee to Level 100) and a profile icon.

I do not think we should argue about how people feel about Dixie Kong's possible playable inclusion. I feel much of the people who are fine with her being an echo, myself included, is just "bargaining" about how she could still make it onto Ultimate's roster when her chances for DLC are as low as they are (and the possible of additional echoes are still low, and the competition for her even being among those few echoes is very high).

It is nothing more than "cognitively dissonant hope". Basically, where the mind says one thing, "Dixie Kong is most likely not going to be DLC for Ultimate.", but the heart is whispering, "but there is still a chance. It might be little. But it is still there." We know it is most likely not going to happen, but we hope that a chance for it is still there.

To each their own. For me having her in at all would be a blessing in it of itself. Although the fact that they didn’t just make her an echo in the base roster might very well increase her chances of being unique for the future.

That is exactly how I feel.

In my 3 month amount of time away from Smashboards, I've seen all 14,000,605 ways the DLC could possibly go and their is only 1 way Dixie makes it into the roster...



Echo! (through a free software update...)

I'm sorry BirthNote

There is actually only one other way I can see her making it in as DLC, which would be as part of a second Fighter's Pass. The least likely scenario for her is that she is one of the four unannounced characters for the first Fighter's Pass.

As for echoes being a free software update, I highly doubt that would happen considering that Mii costumes were not free, and those have less work put into them. I think the most significant content that was made as free for Smash 4 DLC was some trophies, a few Mii costume.

 

[Dorayaki]

I don't like Mario Kart's roster as much as I'd like to, either, but it's less of a problem for me because I play Mario Kart for the racetracks, as I imagine most people do. In Smash, characters are more meaningful so naturally we gravitate to them far more often.

To me it feels like the latests Kart 7 or 8 doesn't really have any significant character inclusion after Wii had Rosalina and Funky, not talking about the guest DLCs. I like Koopalings but their major defect is that they decrease the diversity in a medium roster, and in all Mario games the best place they fit in may be a baseball game which require big amount of characters.

Reviving old characters may be a hard wish, so I won't have high hope for them. I would only pick the followings in realistic view, adding Goomette. The ones I personalyl want to see as revivals are Geno, Mallow, Wizpig and Parakarry.

Fantastic work as always. Very well done.
Never ever think that a character is "inevitable" or that a character will eventually have their turn come up. This kind of mentality has been especially disastrous for Dixie Kong in particular because Dixie fans believed that just because Dixie Kong checked off all the typical criteria for character inclusion (important in their own franchise, popular, had a recent major game role) that she would be a newcomer for both Smash 4 and Ultimate. Now it is the case where she is not even a strong contender for this game's DLC. Dixie Kong could always potentially be decloned, but the opportunity to be a part of the roster,

I do think Dixie Kong could still be true to herself is she was an echo fighter (ideally a Ken-style one).

It is nothing more than "cognitively dissonant hope". Basically, where the mind says one thing, "Dixie Kong is most likely not going to be DLC for Ultimate.", but the heart is whispering, "but there is still a chance. It might be little. But it is still there." We know it is most likely not going to happen, but we hope that a chance for it is still there..

This. The only chance is having two DK regular reps at the same time in Ultimate, but that would be abit too much expectation. Like said, being an echo is an alternative chance when we can hardly find a slot in the regular roster.

 

[DeniroSerafim]

Since Diddy seems to be showing up more often in Mario spin off games lately (Except Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ), I think it would be great for Dixie to show up more in these games again. The more appearances she makes, the better. A new Mario Baseball game on Switch would be great, and hopefully Dixie would be upgraded to a captain role this time as well. Also, Dixie would be great in a new Mario Strikers as well, perhaps someone should give putting her in that art style a shot?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Since Diddy seems to be showing up more often in Mario spin off games lately (Except Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ), I think it would be great for Dixie to show up more in these games again. The more appearances she makes, the better. A new Mario Baseball game on Switch would be great, and hopefully Dixie would be upgraded to a captain role this time as well. Also, Dixie would be great in a new Mario Strikers as well, perhaps someone should give putting her in that art style a shot?

It would be very nice to see K. Rool in the Mario spin offs as well along with the rest of the Kong family and the Kremling crew.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Fantastic work as always. Very well done.



I have said a few times before that one of the few scenarios where Dixie Kong still is able to make it onto Ultimate's roster (without being a part of the Fighter's Pass) is being among two or three echo fighters that Sakurai decided to throw in as DLC. Personally, I would still be happy with this (and as I said before, if Dixie was an echo under such a scenario, she would likely be among the most different echos being closer to Ken than Daisy). Dixie Kong being on Ultimate's roster would be a massive miracle regardless of what kind of fighter she would end up as simply due to the present circumstances and the competition she faces even if one of those few routes to get on the roster were to arise (whether it would be additional echoes developed or a second fighter's pass).

The simple fact is we do not know what the future holds. From what I have already written in my Dixie Kong essay, I have noticed one very concerning thing regarding Dixie Kong. She is a character that which has regularly gone on long hiatuses regarding her last appearance. Dixie Kong's last game appearance was 1997's Donkey Kong Land 3, and she would not appear in another game until 2004's Donkey Konga 2, nearly seven years. While she made a slew of game appearances from 2004 to 2008, after Mario Super Sluggers, she was gone again until 2014's Tropical Freeze, which was nearly six years. It has now been FIVE years since her last new game appearance. In another two years, Dixie Kong will have beaten her longest hiatus record.

For most characters added to the roster, having a recent game appearance is a very integral factor to their selection. Dixie Kong has always had bad circumstances surround her regarding getting into Smash Bros. From not being retooled as a separate fighter when the tag team idea did not work in Brawl, to Tropical Freeze being announced too late to affect Sakurai's decision in deciding Smash 4's roster, to K. Rool getting most of the DK newcomer attention on the ballot. Dixie Kong simply does not have luck on her side.

Looking at the character's history, even getting in as an echo fighter in Ultimate would be a massive victory for her and tremendously lucky. Perhaps one of the biggest miracles for character inclusion honestly given the circumstances. Dixie Kong could always be made into a more unique fighter down the road.

Dr. Mario at one point was the cloniest clone in the series, now he is very noticeably different than Mario and much more different than many other clone type fighters in Ultimate (the echoes). Many said Pichu should never ever return because he was a character that was flat out awful and intended to be awful. Now Pichu is considered among the best fighters in Ultimate.

Dixie Kong being an echo in Ultimate will not condemn her to that fighter category perpetuity. Instead fans of the character would have to express that they would like to see the character further differentiated from Diddy Kong. Dixie Kong going from a last minute Ken-style echo to a full fledged Isabelle styled semi-clone is a pretty realistic transition if you look at how Melee's clones became semi-clones in later Smash Bros. installments.



Dark Samus and Daisy would never ever have made it into the roster without echoes being a thing (the same goes for every other character that was made into an echo). Daisy within Super Mario has never (or rarely) displayed different abilities than Peach, and her primary different from Peach was personality.

I actually wrote extensively how despite Dark Samus have almost no gameplay differences from Samus, Sakurai and his team were still able to capture the the character well through the character's eerie and "alien" animations.

For most supporters or fans of these characters, their inclusion as an echo fighter beats the character likely never ever making it onto the roster.



As I said before, Falco would never have made it into Smash Bros. period. During pre-Brawl, there would only have been strong support for Wolf and Krystal. Falco had less support than Wolf did during pre-Melee due the E3 2001 Melee trailer where Wolf made an appearance (which made many think he was going to be a part of the roster). Star Fox going into hiatus with Command, would have meant little interest in Falco during the pre-Smash 4 period (look at how much interest in Krystal collapsed after pre-Brawl). Falco had to make into Melee, or else he most likely would never have made it into the series at all.

Also, the clone system in general offered so many characters with smaller fanbases an opportunity for their character of choice to make it into the roster. For example, Roy introduced many people, including myself to the Fire Emblem series and made us fans of it. Fans of Dark Samus and Chrom thought after Brawl and Smash 4 that those characters would never make it onto the roster.

The echoes in general offered hopes and dreams to many fans of characters that thought being a part of the roster was unlikely. There is always room to be decloned in a future installment for the echoes.



The Mii hat might very well be able to be recycled as an asset if Dixie is included as a fighter. However, I think most likely they will create an entirely new hair texture for Dixie Kong.



I agree with this. I wrote extensively before that Dixie Kong if an echo would be at the very least as different as Chrom and more likely follow cues from Ken. I think she would at the very least have a different recovery, Final Smash, idle animations (some echoes do not), jump animation (based off of DKC2 and DKC3), run animation (based off of DKC2 and DKC3), and neutral special with different properties (Bubble Gum Pop Gun instead of Peanut Pop Gun). I could easily see her having a few a-moves utilizing her ponytail like how Ken has kicks for some of his a-moves instread of punches.

As for the second paragraph you wrote, I also very much agree. Personally, I would love to see her alongside the rest of Ultimate's stellar cast. The next game in the series will probably remove quite a bit of Ultimate's roster for one, and secondly, as mentioned earlier, we do not know what circumstances Dixie Kong will be facing when the roster for the next game is decided in the mid 2020's. She could very well be in a worse situation than she is now.

Look at Krystal as an example. The conventional wisdom after Brawl's release was that she would be a shoe-in for the next game since she was the most highly requested female newcomer at the time. Two installments later, she has not made any new appearances in her own series, and she just recently gained an Assist Trophy role.

Never ever think that a character is "inevitable" or that a character will eventually have their turn come up. This kind of mentality has been especially disastrous for Dixie Kong in particular because Dixie fans believed that just because Dixie Kong checked off all the typical criteria for character inclusion (important in their own franchise, popular, had a recent major game role) that she would be a newcomer for both Smash 4 and Ultimate. Now it is the case where she is not even a strong contender for this game's DLC. Dixie Kong could always potentially be decloned, but the opportunity to be a part of the roster, just as it is for many characters that are part of it now, is a narrow window of opportunity. Dixie Kong has already had it shut on her multiple times (not being retooled as a separate fighter in Brawl, Tropical Freeze being unveiled too late to affect Smash 4's roster, the Ballot making K. Rool be prioritized over Dixie Kong). Dixie Kong also has been gone from gaming for long stretches of time (from 1997 to 2004, 2008 to 2014, and now 2014 to ongoing).

Dixie Kong making UItimate's roster even as an echo fighter would be a profound miracle. I personally think that she is much more likely to be some sort of Isabelle style semi-clone if she is made into a newcomer for the next game, and personally I think she has the chops to be entirely unique.

Your comment about her even just being an echo grants far, far more exposure is poignant one. Just look at the example of Dark Samus. That was a character on the edge of being forgotten, yet her, miraculous, inclusion as an echo fighter led to a burst of fan art of the character and many people remembering how cool she is.



Aside from about half of the echoes (Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, Dark Pit), the clones have much different playstyles and matchups compared to the character that they are based off of. You are also correct that there are many people that prefer clones and echoes over the character that they are based of of.



These are very important unknowns to take into account. I already mentioned some of them in my response, but I am glad you already pointed them out.



That is how I feel too, honestly.



I think Impa and Octoling are among the most likely additional echoes to happen, and I was a bit surprised that they were not in the base game (especially the Octolings). Even as a possible echo fighter for a possible two or three additional slots, Dixie Kong faces IMMENSE competition. Any route Dixie Kong takes to get on Ultimate's roster (whether being an echo fighter, being part of a possible second fighter's pass, or even somehow part of the current fighter's pass) at this point is simply a miracle and overcoming tremendous odds.



I do think Dixie Kong could still be true to herself is she was an echo fighter (ideally a Ken-style one).

As I said in prior posts, the amount of flexibility Dixie Kong has for character inclusion (inclusion as an entirely unique fighter, multiple types of semi-clones, multiple types of echoes), is one of the best arguments about why Dixie Kong fans need to be proactive for the next cycle in being heard about their desire for the character's inclusion.

I think Dixie Kong's most likely inclusion if she is ever made playable will be as some sort of semi-clone. Whether it is the Ken-style echo or the Lucas/Wolf kind (similar specials, but different everything else), or something in between (like how Falco/Roy/Ganondorf/Isabelle are).

I am thankful Dixie Kong at least received a Mii hat in Ultimate. Look at Bandana Dee, the only shoutouts he received in Ultimate were a spirit (that is only available by enhancing a Waddle Dee to Level 100) and a profile icon.

I do not think we should argue about how people feel about Dixie Kong's possible playable inclusion. I feel much of the people who are fine with her being an echo, myself included, is just "bargaining" about how she could still make it onto Ultimate's roster when her chances for DLC are as low as they are (and the possible of additional echoes are still low, and the competition for her even being among those few echoes is very high).

It is nothing more than "cognitively dissonant hope". Basically, where the mind says one thing, "Dixie Kong is most likely not going to be DLC for Ultimate.", but the heart is whispering, "but there is still a chance. It might be little. But it is still there." We know it is most likely not going to happen, but we hope that a chance for it is still there.



That is exactly how I feel.



There is actually only one other way I can see her making it in as DLC, which would be as part of a second Fighter's Pass. The least likely scenario for her is that she is one of the four unannounced characters for the first Fighter's Pass.

As for echoes being a free software update, I highly doubt that would happen considering that Mii costumes were not free, and those have less work put into them. I think the most significant content that was made as free for Smash 4 DLC was some trophies, a few Mii costume.

You do make some good points and I know I can't speak for everyone it's just in my eyes I feel that she has enough potential of her own or at least a Wolf/Lucas styled semi clone especially since they always reference how important her ponytail is which should be a huge part of her move set.

This place wasn't too peaceful before Isabelle was revived (many weren't too sure if they were going to make any semi clones before she came) I just want most of Dixie's fans to be happy with how she's represented as a fighter also as far as we know the dev team has stated that the new dlc characters won't be echoes which is why it's not a good idea to rely on that possiblity in my opinion, I know it's unknown if she's part of any future dlc packs but I rather not rely on any unofficial theories which could end up being false information.

 

[Ed-boy]

>Nintendo News channel does promotional "female Ninty characters" feature.
>No Dixie Kong (amongst other unnamed heroines...)
smh

 

[Mushroomguy12]

>Nintendo News channel does promotional female Ninty heroes feature.
>No Dixie Kong
smh

Which channel is this, exactly?

On the other hand, Happy International Women's Day, everyone! Here's for continued support of Dixie Kong and other deserving heroines for Smash.

 

[Ed-boy]

You'll find it in the news section on the Switch homescreen (if you have a Switch, that is)
I'd have posted a screenshot, but I don't really know that kinda song n' dance yet.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You'll find it in the news section on the Switch homescreen (if you have a Switch, that is)
I'd have posted a screenshot, but I don't really know that kinda song n' dance yet.

OK, I thought you were talking about the official Nintendo Youtube channel or one of the fan YouTube ones so I was confused.

 

[Sabertooth]

Yeah, it's pretty lame. Dixie is better than all of those characters. Especially Inkling who's not even an actual character.

And Isabelle's series isn't even on the Switch uggghghh

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yeah, it's pretty lame. Dixie is better than all of those characters. Especially Inkling who's not even an actual character.

I mean, the first part is debatable enough, but for Inkling not being a character, there are actually individual Inklings in a similar vein to how Yoshi and Toad are their own characters among their species. I do think that Dixie should have been included but I don't see the point of insulting the others.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

I remember something else they did a few years ago, I think TF had already come out, and they listed Bombette as a female character example and not Dixie. Lol. The good thing is the fans clearly see Dixie as a strong, memorable example of a female character. But Nintendo's PR leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Ed-boy]

I'd say the biggest offender was that "Nintendo Starlets" puzzle panel from some years back...

...Some lineup, huh? Samus isn't even there, let alone Dixie. Like, c'mon!

 

[ZeroJanitor]

dixie doesnt get marketed enough because nintendo are COWARDS who dont appreciate good character design

 

[Sabertooth]

I mean, the first part is debatable enough, but for Inkling not being a character, there are actually individual Inklings in a similar vein to how Yoshi and Toad are their own characters among their species. I do think that Dixie should have been included but I don't see the point of insulting the others.

Not an insult, just a fact. Generic Female Inkling is just as much a character as a Mii. There are specific Inkling characters, but they're usually not the ones being marketed.

And Bombette? Whaaat? What could the reason for that have possibly been?

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Lol. It's this.

https://www.gamnesia.com/news/ninte...tory-month-with-a-look-back-at-its-female-cha

That image with Dixie is misleading. I think Gamenesia, the website reporting, made that. Nintendo's PR didn't talk about Dixie but has a blurb about Bombette. Come on. Even among PM1 female partners, Bombette is kinda lame. What about Lady Bow? Sushie? Watt?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I'd say the biggest offender was that "Nintendo Starlets" puzzle panel from some years back...

...Some lineup, huh? Samus isn't even there, let alone Dixie. Like, c'mon!

I think it was supposed to be "Nintendo princesses", until someone realised that Pauline isn't remotely close to being a princess.

I remember something else they did a few years ago, I think TF had already come out, and they listed Bombette as a female character example and not Dixie. Lol. The good thing is the fans clearly see Dixie as a strong, memorable example of a female character. But Nintendo's PR leaves a lot to be desired.

Have those people even gone back to their workplace since 2001? Talk about out of touch.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

i just want to come out right now and say that bombette is good actually

 

[BirthNote]

IDEK who Bombette is but IDC either lol.

I was looking at a DKC3 vid earlier and I NEVER wrapped my brain around it before, but there's a lot of options for a potential moveset from that game. Either paired with Kiddy (ugh), those new animal buddies and also those vehicles you use to get around. It never crossed my mind before, but if a moveset idea could be derived from the raft or gyrocopter Dixie uses, that would really be something special.

And then if you combine her options from DKC3 with her entire history as a character, you'll find a good moveset pool to draw from. There's hair-grabbing/throwing, hair-attacks, hair-flying, team attacks from 3 different Kongs, 8.5 different Animal Buddies, Banana Birds, Bubblegum, Bubblegum Popguns, a motorboat, baseball bats, gyrocopter and of course generic monkey stuff. Dixie has quite a bit of untapped potential!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

IDEK who Bombette is but IDC either lol.

Bombette is one of Mario partners in the original Paper Mario.

 

[Sabertooth]

I've always felt that the original Paper Mario partners were basically prototypes for the ones in TTYD. They're the same concepts--a Goomba who serves as a walking encyclopedia, a Koopa whose shell can be used to attack and solve puzzles, a Bob-omb that can blow up on the field--but TTYD makes them much more compelling characters. Nothing against Bombette, but Admiral Bobbery is where that concept truly shone.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How does this make any sense? The reason there were 6 clones in Melee is that there wasn't any time to add another single unique character. Saying 5 more unique characters could have made it in to Melee roster is objectively false, unless Sakurai and his team didn't get substantially more development time.

Especially since Sakurai already said that he had to choose to either include King Dedede, or the 6 clones in Melee with the last bit of time he had. And obviously, he choose the clones.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I've always felt that the original Paper Mario partners were basically prototypes for the ones in TTYD. They're the same concepts--a Goomba who serves as a walking encyclopedia, a Koopa whose shell can be used to attack and solve puzzles, a Bob-omb that can blow up on the field--but TTYD makes them much more compelling characters. Nothing against Bombette, but Admiral Bobbery is where that concept truly shone.

I agree. But the original Paper Mario started out as SMRPG2 in it's beta stages and was in development for at least 4 years before release, so I don't think the PM partners were just prototypes of the TTYD partners. But I do believe the TTYD partners borrowed some material from the PM partners and turned out to be much more amazing characters with deeper actual depth than the PM partners.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I just find it kinda funny that out of all female characters, they randomly pick a lesser-known Mario character. It's almost like they chose her name out of a hat.

 

[SuperJumpmon64]

So here's something weird.....I dreamt that there was a deluxe version of Smash Ultimate, with all the returning characters, and some of the new one's being Funky Kong, DK's echo, Dixie Kong, Waluigi, Banjo Kazooie, Beat from Jet Set Radio, Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, and....you won't believe this....Baby Donkey Kong...