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Discussion: Randomness & Brawl+

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shanus

Smash Hero
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Nov 17, 2005
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I have recently stumbled upon a method which can be used to remove the randomness of certain actions in the game.

Actions such as misfire, peach's beam sword or bomb, snakes mortar angle, etc, could potentially be fixed and/or removed.

However, the main question is what do we wish to do with this. We have had a lot of discussion about it in the WBR, but we would like to hear the communities opinion on this.

What random factors should stay? What should go or be changed? How would you change it?


Serious discussion only here guys, or the mighty Almas will rain on you with infractions gallore.



Edit: Important point:
I would like to stop in and say this before I sit back and watch what you guys have to say. *ahem*

We CANNOT adjust the frequency that things are pulled. For example, a suggestion that is infeasible would be something like

"We should adjust D3s minion throw so he has a higher chance of pulling a Waddle Dee and a Gordo, but nerf the Gordo's damage and knockback as well"

This is an all or nothing trade. If we decide to remove Snake's mortar angles they would ALL be one way. Make sense?
 

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

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Almas sucks.

Keep Peach's randomness, I think the mortar angle should be changed and controllable if it isn't, misfire is fine (Could it be nerfed and then able to be controlled?), there are more.

Some need to be kept, some taken out, IMO.
 

shanus

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ThatGuy, that wasn't exactly a post we are looking for here. You didn't explain any reasoning behind it besides keep it. Why should it be kept in? What does it add to the competitive nature of b+?
 

PosthumusES

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Take out tripping attacks for god sake, it bad for the game, because it could lead to combos that shouldn't happen.

I got dair to Rest by Puff, and died because of tripping attacks.
 

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

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ThatGuy, that wasn't exactly a post we are looking for here. You didn't explain any reasoning behind it besides keep it. Why should it be kept in? What does it add to the competitive nature of b+?
Because of its potential, which most people are going to say (Feels like it). I couldn't explain it better myself without wasting the rest of my day trying to, but yeah, mostly the potential of things like pressure.

They should be fixed, not removed, by fix I mean changing their probabilities, properties, etc, or, as I said, nerf/buff.

An example: Nerf DeDeDe's Gordos so they aren't so powerful, yet come out more, or possibly can be forced to appear.

Sorry, I know I probably wouldn't admit much, but I like having a say in things like this.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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Mar 17, 2008
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Cleveland, Ohio
What should stay:

  • Snake's Mortars
  • G and W's 9 (it's a crappy move. The only reason anyone uses it is when sandbagging)
  • Wario's Bike (Every good Wario main knows the numbers for turning the bike around)
  • Pikmin Plucking
  • Moves that trip, but only if the make sense. Ganon's F-air tripping is stupid. (only quick thinking, a good players can truly react in time to capitalize off tripping effects.)

What should be Removed:

  • Peach's Bombs/Beam Swords
  • Gordos (or at least nerf them)
  • Luigi's Misfire (it hurts Luigi's recovery from time to time. He already covers good distance when recovering so no one ever relies on it. The only reason it would stay is to keep playing to his zany character)
  • G and W Sausage (Find a good angle and make them all shoot that way.)

I can't think of anything else.

EDIT: I removed Stitchface. The points made in this topic were very valid.
 

cman

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
593
I have recently stumbled upon a method which can be used to remove the randomness of certain actions in the game.

Actions such as misfire, peach's beam sword or bomb, snakes mortar angle, etc, could potentially be fixed and/or removed.

However, the main question is what do we wish to do with this. We have had a lot of discussion about it in the WBR, but we would like to hear the communities opinion on this.

What random factors should stay? What should go or be changed? How would you change it?


Serious discussion only here guys, or the mighty Almas will rain on you with infractions gallore.
How much control does this give us? Would it require us to make snake's mortars only go straight up, or could we allow him to control the angle a bit? What are the limits to it basically?

What should stay:
  • Snake's Mortars
  • G and W's 9 (it's a crappy move. The only reason anyone uses it is when sandbagging)
  • Wario's Bike (Every good Wario main knows the numbers for turning the bike around)
  • Pikmin Plucking
  • Moves that trip (only quick thinking, a good players can truly react in time to capitalize off tripping effects.)
Why not change G&W's judge to always be a number that is pretty good, like the fire one has a useful angle and decent damage iirc. You are basically saying we should leave it useless rather than make it decent in some situations when we apparently now could easily. Any reason for it?

As for the random tripping and pikmen, what would you propose to do to them? Remove the tripping altogether?
 

ZelinFenrir

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
5
Keep in Luigi's misfire; happens often enough that it can be expected in a normal match. removing it limits Luigi's recovery, while increasing it probably wouldn't change his game too much as it's rarely used for attacking.

Don't change mortar deviance; It's not a huge amount. At least, not enough that snake players really have to plan for it. Removing it wouldn't change much of anything, so it's just extra work for the coders.

Now, the turnip pull. The odds are extremely low for any non-turnip item, so in the normal course of most battles, other items would never appear. Increasing the odds of those items would give peach a massive buff as a peach player could expect to pull a bob-omb or sword or whatnot every battle, other battle, or so.
Removing it would be the better option, in my opinion. No risk of pulling an almost-instant kill in the case of a bob-omb (however rarely) or a sword.

Hope that's somewhat helpful.
 

ThatGuyYouMightKnow

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Baltimore, MD
Keep in Luigi's misfire; happens often enough that it can be expected in a normal match. removing it limits Luigi's recovery, while increasing it probably wouldn't change his game too much as it's rarely used for attacking.

Don't change mortar deviance; It's not a huge amount. At least, not enough that snake players really have to plan for it. Removing it wouldn't change much of anything, so it's just extra work for the coders.

Now, the turnip pull. The odds are extremely low for any non-turnip item, so in the normal course of most battles, other items would never appear. Increasing the odds of those items would give peach a massive buff as a peach player could expect to pull a bob-omb or sword or whatnot every battle, other battle, or so.
Removing it would be the better option, in my opinion. No risk of pulling an almost-instant kill in the case of a bob-omb (however rarely) or a sword.

Hope that's somewhat helpful.
Is there a way to change what that random item is, and if so, is there a better item to change it to?
 

Mattnumbers

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I think Random moves that are sometimes better should have the better effect removed in favor of an overall buff, such as G%W always getting a fairly good number or Luigi's SideB charging faster. This would make it so we aren't actually nerfing the characters by removing randomness.
 

Revven

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Peach's Bombs and Beam Sword.

My reasoning: There is absolutely no good reason to keep either of these besides that fact that she had them in Melee and people were fine with it then (however, that's only because nobody could do **** about those two things about Peach. Hell, I bet if you asked any Melee player that wasn't a Peach main if they'd want to remove her random elements from Down B if given the chance, they would probably be willing to). It's not apart of her character at all. The turnips are, but the bombs and swords aren't.

There's no reason to tone them down either as they are inherently items and toning down items would affect those who play with these items on (even if Brawl+ isn't meant for items, there ARE people who may turn them on occasionally). Given that either item also randomly gives her an adv. at ANY time (ANY time because it can happen ANY time despite its low chances) and depending on the item, it lasts a LONG time (the advantage). Because either player A is trying to be wary of the bomb or player A is having a harder time getting inside Peach's range because of her NEW RANDOM GIVEN RANGE. The range wasn't as ridiculous in Melee as it is now, which is just even MORE of a reason to get rid of the beam sword.

It serves no competitive value at all. Tweaking either one would make the reward less rewarding and less scary because the whole POINT to the randomness of it is to scare you and make you mostly flee or have a harder time against Peach. This randomness was better suited in FFAs, but, in a 1 one 1 match of a test of skill, it serves no purpose whatsoever. You can argue that it does serve a purpose but, that purpose just doesn't sit well at all in terms of 1v1.

The stitch can stay simply because of two reasons: A) It got nerfed in its transition to Brawl and I'm even willing to say it got nerfed even more in its transition to Brawl+ due to higher gravity (although I have not fought a Peach who has gotten a stitch yet). and B) It's a turnip, therefore it's actually apart of her character and is in line with her other turnips, who each do a different amount of damage and knockback. The stitch fits the formula while the bombs and swords break it.

You cannot deny the above logic.
 

goodoldganon

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How much control does this give us? Would it require us to make snake's mortars only go straight up, or could we allow him to control the angle a bit? What are the limits to it basically?
From what I understand, unless we have an unforseen breakthrough the code would work like this:

If Luigi's Misfire Attack ID is activated then change the ID to the non-misfire ID. An easier way to put it would be you would not have control over when you want to misfire or controlling mortars.

Why not change G&W's judge to always be a number that is pretty good, like the fire one has a useful angle and decent damage iirc. You are basically saying we should leave it useless rather than make it decent in some situations when we apparently now could easily. Any reason for it?
It's part of G and W's character and, as I said, it's not used for anything else but sandbagging. Making the meat actually useful is a much better and deserving buff then giving him one number on Judgment.
As for the random tripping and pikmen, what would you propose to do to them? Remove the tripping altogether?
Pikmin plucking is just how you randomly get a pikmin when you pluck. Removing it would take away one of the learning curves of Olimar's game. The ability to react quickly to what pikmin you have.

As I said, I think tripping on moves is fine. Not only do you have to connect with the attack to force a trip you have to react quickly enough to be able to combo or take advantage of it.
 

cman

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Messages
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Pikmin plucking is just how you randomly get a pikmin when you pluck. Removing it would take away one of the learning curves of Olimar's game. The ability to react quickly to what pikmin you have.

As I said, I think tripping on moves is fine. Not only do you have to connect with the attack to force a trip you have to react quickly enough to be able to combo or take advantage of it.
Oh woops i misread the titles of each of your sections to be the exact opposite of what they were. My bad.
 

ZelinFenrir

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Messages
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regarding G&W: keep judgement the same. The move is inherently risky, so decreasing the chance of injuring yourself and only pulling 6 and up (or whatever numbers they decided on) would just break his game.
The move would be so overused if you had a 1/4 chance of almost KOing an opponent, 1/4 chance of freezing, 1/4 chance of healing, and 1/4 chance of whatever 6 is.
 

goodoldganon

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I would like to stop in and say this before I sit back and watch what you guys have to say. *ahem*

We CANNOT adjust the frequency that things are pulled. For example, a suggestion that is infeasible would be something like

"We should adjust D3s minion throw so he has a higher chance of pulling a Waddle Dee and a Gordo, but nerf the Gordo's damage and knockback as well"

This is an all or nothing trade. If we decide to remove Snake's mortar angles they would ALL be one way. Make sense?
 

shanus

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Messages
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I would like to stop in and say this before I sit back and watch what you guys have to say. *ahem*

We CANNOT adjust the frequency that things are pulled. For example, a suggestion that is infeasible would be something like

"We should adjust D3s minion throw so he has a higher chance of pulling a Waddle Dee and a Gordo, but nerf the Gordo's damage and knockback as well"

This is an all or nothing trade. If we decide to remove Snake's mortar angles they would ALL be one way. Make sense?
Adding this to the OP
 

Nybb

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Victoria, BC
I could see some changes maybe helping to balance some characters. Something like toning down the Gordos, but making it so you always toss a Gordo if you smash B instead of tilt B, could be cool. But it doesn't sound like the code works like this / has that kind of capability.

Overall though, I would be inclined to say that entirely removing random effects from moves is something that probably should be avoided. It just opens up too many debates about where to draw the line.

The only change that I would make without any hesitation at all would be to replace Peach's beamsword with a stitchface. Bomb-ombs are one-time use and cannot be held indefinitely, whereas the sword can be. It is too good and not very thematic. And if Peach drops the sword, and her opponent is somebody with a really good sword swing, she basically loses. The game becomes too much about controlling the sword. Plus it would be neat to get slightly more stichface pulls, because they really aren't absurdly powerful and add some interesting mindgames.
 

Rudra

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Peach's Bombs and Beam Sword
I can agree with that. It does seem out of character (well, maybe not the bomb), and like Nybb said, the sword, though rare could detract from the match focus a bit. Bob-ombs are also somewhat unnecessary imo since Stitchface is still a really powerful projectile. What about Mr. Saturn? This code will remove the chance of getting him too right?

Anyways, I'm all for the removal of Beam Sword, and 50:50 on the bomb/saturn issue.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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It's part of G and W's character and, as I said, it's not used for anything else but sandbagging. Making the meat actually useful is a much better and deserving buff then giving him one number on Judgment. it.
I can't exactly say anything until I tried something out myself, but Chef is inherently a bad move for much more reasons then the random angles, and the random trajectory can even be somewhat useful in a given situation. So giving him one angle isn't going to really be a buff to the move at all (again, this is just judging off of opinion since I can't know until trying it myself).

So obviously the angles can be a pain, like trying to stop an approach only to have each piece fly at a horrible angle and missing the opponent completely. You could be trying to edgeguard with it (though he has much better options... I guess you could) and have them fly way too far to be of any use.

Though the trajectories can be considered a "good" thing too. The opponent won't know where the food is going to fly, so while an opening may be present, it can quickly close up and leave G&W protected. Let's say you are approaching through the air from a distance. You see one piece flying at you so you move to avoid that only to have another hit you.

The randomness is either going to help or hurt G&W. When it comes down to it though, homogenizing the angles won't solve the major issue with the move anyways. ( Note that I'm not saying this as an attempt to add this into the game in any way, because I already know the response that even a small buff to G&W gets, and the fact that any buff in general is frowned upon when given to a viable character) The move is still going to be useless because of how horribly slow it is. If you ever want the meat to be useful then G&W is going to need to react faster out of it, because as it stands you can easily DI out of the food and in some cases punish G&W for hitting you with it.

In regards to Judgement, keep it as is. Where as Chef has the potential to be a useful (and very helpful) move, Judgement should really be kept as a sandbagging move. The only competitive purpose the move could possibly serve is as a last ditch attempt to make a comeback because there are much better options for an early kill with G&W. And really, not every move needs a use.
 

SuSa

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What should be Removed:

  • Peach's Bombs/Beam Swords/Stitchface (or Stitchface it toned down)
  • Gordos (or at least nerf them)
  • Luigi's Misfire (it hurts Luigi's recovery from time to time. He already covers good distance when recovering so no one ever relies on it. The only reason it would stay is to keep playing to his zany character)
  • G and W Sausage (Find a good angle and make them all shoot that way.)

I can't think of anything else.
I can see why you would remove Bombs/Beam Swords - but Stichface actually suits the whole Turnip role. Also it is perfectly fine with how "overpowered" it can be considering how rare it is. It doesn't last long, and if the opponent is paying attention they can avoid it. I see no competitive aspect gained from removing Stichface. Beam Sword is simply an item and should be removed. Also it seems Peach's bomb is 10x stronger then that of a normal one... and I get it more then I get Stitchface -_- I can see how that could detract a bit from competitive play. (It's like a 1hKO at 60%+)

I see no reason to remove Gordo's. Maybe a slight nerf, but I feel they are fine how they are.

Those are my comments.
 

kupo15

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Quickly stopping in but tripping based attacks should definitely be taken out. It is a random element that you don't plan for and makes the game inconsistent and adds no competitiveness to the game. We all would rather moves like Falcon's dair, Pit's dsmash or (leaf brought this next one up) ganon's fair trip you when you don't plan for it because you don't know when it will happen instead of acting like normal, right? If it can me move based, then only moves like ness/dk dtilt, pika jab.... should trip if that.
 

Dark Sonic

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^^Kupo, you do know that some moves are used specifically to trip the opponent right (MK's d-tilt, Zelda's d-tilt, ect.)

Tripping moves should be taken on a move by move basis and not see a blanket removal. It is certainly silly when Ganon's fair trips people, but some moves have almost a 50% chance to trip people, where you EXPECT the trip.
 

shanus

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^^Kupo, you do know that some moves are used specifically to trip the opponent right (MK's d-tilt, Zelda's d-tilt, ect.)

Tripping moves should be taken on a move by move basis and not see a blanket removal. It is certainly silly when Ganon's fair trips people, but some moves have almost a 50% chance to trip people, where you EXPECT the trip.
Well, I could do a blanket removal on all, then hard code those moves to 100% trip instead of 50%
 

kupo15

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^^Kupo, you do know that some moves are used specifically to trip the opponent right (MK's d-tilt, Zelda's d-tilt, ect.)

Tripping moves should be taken on a move by move basis and not see a blanket removal. It is certainly silly when Ganon's fair trips people, but some moves have almost a 50% chance to trip people, where you EXPECT the trip.
I am quite aware which is why the moves you described fall under my ness/dk dtilt category. Moves like falcon dair, pit dsmash, ganon fair...those are the moves that should never trip and all moves that have no point to trip or ones you never plan to have a tripping combo or even knew had the capabilities of tripping.
 

shanus

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Perhaps I'm being overly cautious here, but the thought of a DK or Ness dtilt guaranteeing fsmashes at any percent kinda scares me.
Well, not all moves haha, its just a thought. Just throwing out there what our current capabilities are.
 

shanus

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Heh Delorted, I think the only thing that would be done would be removing things like the beam sword and bomb-omb. Nothing serious :p
 

BEES

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For G&W I think the strength of judgment should depend on how long you charge it. Same goes for Luigi. Charging it to max should result in a misfire. Same goes for DeDeDe - charging will give you better waddledees.

It keeps the variety of the characters' moves, while adding a better Risk/Reward mechanism.

As for random items DeDeDe and Peach pull, those don't affect the match much. I think they fall under an acceptable threshold of randomness. G&W's judgment really doesn't though. Not in any way.
 

CloneHat

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Beam sword and bombs are RANDOM ITEMS. ITEMS are not use competitively because they are RANDOM. The evil turnip can stay, because down B still gets the same thing every time, just with varying KB. It's not randomness that messes up the game.

I always wondered why Snake's mortar would always veer to the side, but I never really cared because it barely moved in either direction. :/ I'd say ask some Snake mains what they think.

Tripping is weird IMO, I guess it's fine on TRIPPY (lol) moves (dtilts, you know what I mean), but as Kupo said, tripping on other moves is just annoying and messes up your plans.
 

Swordplay

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What should stay:

  • Snake's Mortars
  • G and W's 9 (it's a crappy move. The only reason anyone uses it is when sandbagging)
  • Wario's Bike (Every good Wario main knows the numbers for turning the bike around)
  • Pikmin Plucking
  • Moves that trip (only quick thinking, a good players can truly react in time to capitalize off tripping effects.)

What should be Removed:

  • Peach's Bombs/Beam Swords/Stitchface (or Stitchface it toned down)
  • Gordos (or at least nerf them)
  • Luigi's Misfire (it hurts Luigi's recovery from time to time. He already covers good distance when recovering so no one ever relies on it. The only reason it would stay is to keep playing to his zany character)
  • G and W Sausage (Find a good angle and make them all shoot that way.)

I can't think of anything else.
This and I'll add butterfly C4 to to things that should stay list.
 

kupo15

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goodoldganon} What should stay: * Moves that trip [B said:
(only quick thinking, a good players can truly react in time to capitalize off tripping effects.)[/B]
I'm sorry but if you plan for a combo..I mean like I plan to use this move to put you here or something...what is your logic for rationalizing that a random chance that the game forces me to change my plans is good for competition? Using the ganon's fair, I use that move to do something with it and hit hard with it and this move can be great for combos/strings. The worst thing is that you have to unexpected be forced to change your plans. The move should work the way you want it to work and moves that are obvious enough that it shouldn't having tripping capabilities should not have tripping capabilities.

The select dtilts and jabs are fine with this because the random chance of a trip is not that drastic of a change from the original behavior of the move. But if I use a move like ganon fair or pit's dsmash and it produces a trip, that effectively makes the move worse for no reason whatsoever.

Having a mechanic that forces you to randomly change your plans in ways such as this IMO does not add to the competitive value of the game and it effectively creates inconsistencies inside the game. Its not a matter of "well, the good players will be able to adjust which makes the game more technical" because not all moves that trip can be comboed from like pit's dsmash. Its a matter of, "why is it ok that randomness runs how I play this game? Why is it ok to take control away from the player playing the game unnecessarily?" (<this btw is a guideline to follow and taught to programmers on how to make a good game.)

With this thinking, you might as well be defending vbrawl tripping because "good players will be able to react out from randomly tripping to minimize punishment."

This is not ok for me and this is my definition of arbitrary tech skills because this is an uncontrollable occurrence that you are forced to deal with and are forced to arbitrarily change your plans.
 

cman

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Messages
593
In regards to Judgement, keep it as is. Where as Chef has the potential to be a useful (and very helpful) move, Judgement should really be kept as a sandbagging move. The only competitive purpose the move could possibly serve is as a last ditch attempt to make a comeback because there are much better options for an early kill with G&W. And really, not every move needs a use.
Judgement could always fill any of the nine roles that are inherently part of it iiuc. At least one of them is probably going to have some competitive value to its outcome, and that could be the one that was guaranteed. Which do you, as a G&W main, feel would compliment his game without being overpowered?

I can see why you would remove Bombs/Beam Swords - but Stichface actually suits the whole Turnip role. Also it is perfectly fine with how "overpowered" it can be considering how rare it is. It doesn't last long, and if the opponent is paying attention they can avoid it. I see no competitive aspect gained from removing Stichface. Beam Sword is simply an item and should be removed. Also it seems Peach's bomb is 10x stronger then that of a normal one... and I get it more then I get Stitchface -_- I can see how that could detract a bit from competitive play. (It's like a 1hKO at 60%+)

I see no reason to remove Gordo's. Maybe a slight nerf, but I feel they are fine how they are.

Those are my comments.
I do not know the specifics of the stichface (%chance, kb, damage, etc), so would you enlighten me? However, it seems that you are trying to draw a completely arbitrary distinction between the stichface and bomb. You say that the rarity is the difference between them and the balancing factor for the stitchface, however the smash community has countlessly decided that rarity is not a sufficient reason to keep something, especially when the outcome is significantly different than others. For example, items were banned partly because there was a chance that an item would spawn mid-attack and kill the attacker. The random outcome was siginificant enough in that case to drastically alter the situation for no reason. All three items you mentioned were significant enough to drastically alter the situation upon appearance, yet you decide one should be banned and two should stay?

Not only is whether or not it "suits the turnip role" pretty irrelevant when creating a competitive game, but also I would also argue that it doesn't fit the turnip's role in her game. Turnips in peach's game function as approach, camping, and pressure items, whereas the stitchface is (iirc) a kill item. This serves a completely different role from all the other turnips, which might be fine if it had a completely distinct look (ie- you won't mistake a beam sword for a turnip and try to use them in the same way, but you might not see that a turnip is actually a stitchface). However, as they can easily be mistaken by both players until someone is hit by one, the difference is unacceptable to competitive play where you choose a move to fill a specific role. If it unexpectedly does not fill that role, then it can be essentially considered a random outcome.

Well, not all moves haha, its just a thought. Just throwing out there what our current capabilities are.
Would it be possible to make the moves only trip at lower percentages? Like 0-30 or something? I'm not atm saying this should be done, just wondering if it's possible.

Also, and again not saying this should be done, but does the game register distances? Like could we program it to determine ___'s outcome based on distance from the opponent?
 

Gravyguy101

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Apr 12, 2006
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Philadelphia, PA
The randomness should stay, without a doubt, lets walk through the big ones

Peach's Turnip pull is perfect the way it is, the stich face is a threat but it isn't over powering, heck all you have to do is air dodge to catch it, plus its just fun... remember what that word means guys? Anything peach pulls should be fair game, its part of her character, always has been. It doesn't break her and when a peach pulls a bomb things usually turn epic really quickly.

Honestly I can give reasons for all of them but the simple fact that the randomness comes with the character, it doesn't break them, and as they say if it ain't broke don't fix it. simple.
 

SuSa

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I do not know the specifics of the stichface (%chance, kb, damage, etc), so would you enlighten me? However, it seems that you are trying to draw a completely arbitrary distinction between the stichface and bomb. You say that the rarity is the difference between them and the balancing factor for the stitchface, however the smash community has countlessly decided that rarity is not a sufficient reason to keep something, especially when the outcome is significantly different than others. For example, items were banned partly because there was a chance that an item would spawn mid-attack and kill the attacker. The random outcome was siginificant enough in that case to drastically alter the situation for no reason. All three items you mentioned were significant enough to drastically alter the situation upon appearance, yet you decide one should be banned and two should stay?

Not only is whether or not it "suits the turnip role" pretty irrelevant when creating a competitive game, but also I would also argue that it doesn't suit the role. Turnips in peach's game function as approach, camping, and pressure items, whereas the stitchface is a kill item. This serves a completely different role from all the other turnips, which might be fine if it had a completely distinct look (ie- you won't mistake a beam sword for a turnip and try to use them in the same way, but you might not see that a turnip is actually a stitchface). However, as they can easily be mistaken by both players until someone is hit by one, the difference is unacceptable to competitive play where you choose a move to fill a specific role. If it unexpectedly does not fill that role, then it can be essentially considered a random outcome.
What I am meaning to say is Bob-omb is an item. Beam Sword is an item. Sitch Face is a turnip (albeit an item) it fits in with the other turnips. This is like saying G&W's judgement hammer should never pull a 9 because it is significantly better then every other number (IIRC: Instant KO, something the Stich isn't IIRC). You have absolutely no idea if you will hit a 1 or a 9. When you pull a turnip, a good player will first look at the face. A good opponent will do the same. Your argument is almost like saying "When Snake uses his mine and its hard to see on some stages (Smashville) it can easily be mistaken for not being there until you get hit by it." An item randomly spawns and may kill the attacker. Peach must 'call' upon her turnip by using down-B. That is the slight difference. The bob-omb and the beam sword act significantly different then the turnips, and the beam sword can be z-dropped and re-caught (which IIRC gets rid of the 'nerf' that comes on it) which gives a large advantage to Peach.

/better elaboration
 

kupo15

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Oh I changed my original post. I forgot about the random moves that trip...like Ganon's f-air. Most d-tilts, jabs and the few f-tilts should keep the tripping. But there are some moves that should not.
Oh I see. I just replied from Swordplay's post. Thanks for clearing that up

And what ftilts were you thinking of keeping? I can't think of one worth keeping. I think it should be limited to the common, obvious jabs (pika's only comes to mind) and few dtilts like mk/dk/ness/zelda...
 

cman

Smash Ace
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What I am meaning to say is Bob-omb is an item. Beam Sword is an item. Sitch Face is a turnip (albeit an item) it fits in with the other turnips. This is like saying G&W's judgement hammer should never pull a 9 because it is significantly better then every other number (IIRC: Instant KO, something the Stich isn't IIRC). You have absolutely no idea if you will hit a 1 or a 9. When you pull a turnip, a good player will first look at the face. A good opponent will do the same. Your argument is almost like saying "When Snake uses his mine and its hard to see on some stages (Smashville) it can easily be mistaken for not being there until you get hit by it." An item randomly spawns and may kill the attacker. Peach must 'call' upon her turnip by using down-B. That is the slight difference. The bob-omb and the beam sword act significantly different then the turnips, and the beam sword can be z-dropped and re-caught (which IIRC gets rid of the 'nerf' that comes on it) which gives a large advantage to Peach.

/better elaboration
I don't think Judgement should ever pull a 9, and the only arguments for keeping it so far have been that it is a sandbagging move and that not everything needs to be useful, which are pretty poor reasons imo.

Anyway, i'm going to go test some of the properties of the stitchface since apparently you don't know them either, then i'll come back and edit this with my continued argument.

Ok so the stitchface isn't nearly as powerful as I thought, killing mario at some point over 100 from the center of FD with no DI. It does, however, do a full 34 damage. The turnips really confuse me though. I saw them do 5, 6, 9, 12, i believe 16, and 34 damage. Are there really that many types of turnips, and what other differences are there between the types? As for checking which type, it is really difficult to see which type is pulled, especially if peach is facing to the left. Additionally, the faces look very similar, especially in motion. Maybe if the stitchface was colored red or something, it would be a more acceptable turnip.
 

SuSa

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I think Judgement is almost great how it is. The 9 just needs a small nerf. (Won't be insta-kill unless at a certain %) because currently a 1HKO move is a bit overpowered, but even with it how often do you see people using the move to try and land the 9? the risk=reward and its a high risk=high reward move. I just think its BEST reward is a little TO rewarding.
 
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