Discussion: Randomness & Brawl+

[Blank Mauser]

No. It's not a kill move that she actually intends on being a kill move, so it's moot. She uses her turnips for pressure and gimping, if they siddenly become superfied in the form of a stitchface or bob-omb then yipee. Peach doesn't actuallt rely on a bob-omb or stitchface as a kill move, come on man...



My point is that if having the items as random does not actually affect her metagame, but the outcome of the match, then why should they be part of the game? At no point in time does a Peach main plan on a random item, her game is calculated on what is NOT random, as such, the random items have no measure in her game. As such, because of this, they are unneeded.



I'll respond with:

It doesn't have to truly affect her metagame, the point is its tied to it. Peach does not SUDDENLY get a superfied option. The option to pull a bob-omb is there as soon as you pick the character. She doesn't have to rely on it simply because its not reliable. Doesn't mean it needs removing.

Random chances are taken into account as soon as you pick the character, not after, not mid-match, when you pick the character you know theres a chance for X happening and you're playing with the options you have available whether they're reliable or not. Their reliability may be random, but they have always measured into her game simply because the option exists.

How is that just a stall??? Floatcanceling aerials for shieldpressure is 90% of Peach's game. She's playing pretty much the same as before, but with a bombomb in her hand.

And no, as long as she's carrying the bombomb it won't explode. Afaik, the bombomb timer only applies to walking bombombs.

Except now the opponent knows you have a bomb and is going to play extra careful.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Two things:

I eat my words about camping per say, the length is significantly shorter then I remember.

Also

SAAAAAAKKKKKKKURRRRRAAAAIIIIII

The time it takes to have a bomb explode is random. Anywhere between 8 and 13 seconds.

Wait, what the hell? O_o

The timer for the random occurrence is also random? What sense does that make?

Could we also remove that and give it a definite number? 5 seconds or so?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Is there no visual cue as to when its exploding?

 

[GHNeko]

If anything, replace the bomb-omb with a sticky/gooey bomb. :V

Still a bomb, still random, lower reward, higher risk. Keeps the concept, adds balance.

We do have an item mod.

Bomb-ombs have a visual cue that they're going to explode. The expand and turn yellow and revert, and they cycle like that for 1-2 seconds before exploding.

So, if that ganon says is true. The most stalling due to bomb-ombs extends a match is by 15 seconds per bomb-omb pull. <_>

 

[timothyung]

Hmm my opinion is that keep most of the random elements, but make all the random effect have a reasonable risk/reward ratio. Say GW's judgement. A slow move with little range. And it does 12% to yourself when you use it? Or a move with super high knockback that can kill at 10% with di, and does 34% damage? The risk/reward ratio is too unbalanced. And the number is only showed after the hitbox appears. For me, I would nerf 9 a bit so it kills at around 50%. The damage is already a huge reward. For the other numbers, they can knock the opponent in different angles, maybe ranging from 0-90? That way it will become a unique move that the opponent don't know which way to di, and GW need to react to the direction. It's just an example, the most important thing is the risk/reward ratio should be acceptable.

 

[cAm8ooo]

If anything, replace the bomb-omb with a sticky/gooey bomb. :V

Still a bomb, still random, lower reward, high risk. Keeps the concept, adds balance.

We do have an item mod.

HAHA. Now this medium i could support

@tim- If the 9 didnt kill till 50 then there really is no need to use it. You would just completely destroy the move. The only reason people even use it is as a last resort when your at high percents. It's slow, blockable and just un-safe compared to his other moves.

 

[goodoldganon]

Wait, what the hell? O_o

The timer for the random occurrence is also random? What sense does that make?

Could we also remove that and give it a definite number? 5 seconds or so?

I don't know why, maybe it's late but that made me lol...hard.

8 seconds is plenty of time for Peach to decide what she wants to do with the bomb and act. With 5 she'd basically be throwing it as soon as it's pulled. The risk reward factor is still totally out of whack for the bomb, hence why I'm still for removing both swords and bombs, but it's not as bad I remember it being (Melee memories) All the opponent can do is go on the defensive for 10 seconds. It's still a dumb momentum breaker and it still serves no competitive value, but I'll concede bombs are not as potent as I thought they would be.

@Blank: Christ have you guys never played with items Do you guys play Mario games? The bomb starts to flash red progressively faster until it explodes a la Link bombs.

 

[Blank Mauser]

If anything, replace the bomb-omb with a sticky/gooey bomb. :V

Still a bomb, still random, lower reward, high risk. Keeps the concept, adds balance.

We do have an item mod.

I would actually think a gooey bomb would be easier to use/land then a bob-omb lol. It does seem like a pretty cool idea though.

 

[adrahil]

I read the forums here daily, but I rarely post. Still, I have to put my input in on this issue.

The formula for a good competitive fighting game definitely includes as little random as possible. Brawl+ was made specifically to take the camp fest of vBrawl and make it faster paced, and more competitive. As such, random huge advantages should be removed.

Everyone here has played a Street Fighter game, I am sure. So let's say in SF5 they decided to make Ryu have a 2% chance that his regular hadoken turns red and does 50% of the opponents health. Now sure, they could jump over it or block. But that isn't always an option, and when it happens is random. This is a bad, awful game mechanic. But because Smash Bros is a party game by design, things like this exist. In order to make it more competitive, this luck of the draw needs to be removed.

It's all fine when it's text on a message board, but when you're fighting a peach in a tournament you put 20 bucks on and you're in the final rounds, when you get hit by that bomb, it makes you want to break the game. And for good reason, random, huge advantages are ********. The bomb is a stock loss if it hits, and the beam sword is a match loss against low range opponents. And believe me, if it is in, Peach players who are worth anything in tournies will spend hours learning the ins and outs of using it against every character.

All in all, if Brawl+ is really supposed to be a tourny standard, and you want it to represent any kind of competitive level ground, Peach's items and other random match changing advantages should be removed. If it's just something you're going to play with your friends for fun, feel free to remove this code from your build.

 

[GHNeko]

I would actually think a gooey bomb would be easier to use/land then a bob-omb lol. It does seem like a pretty cool idea though.

Not really. You can't just toss it and forget it. Its like a nerfed version of a sticky'd C4 really. it runs on a time, and if you toss it wrong, it sticks to what ever and eventually explodes. If you stick them, they can just chase you down to restick it or block it on impact, and it doesnt kill till high percents.

:V

 

[cAm8ooo]

I don't know why, maybe it's late but that made me lol...hard.

8 seconds is plenty of time for Peach to decide what she wants to do with the bomb and act. With 5 she'd basically be throwing it as soon as it's pulled. The risk reward factor is still totally out of whack for the bomb, hence why I'm still for removing both swords and bombs, but it's not as bad I remember it being (Melee memories) All the opponent can do is go on the defensive for 10 seconds. It's still a dumb momentum breaker and it still serves no competitive value, but I'll concede bombs are not as potent as I thought they would be.

@Blank: Christ have you guys never played with items Do you guys play Mario games? The bomb starts to flash red progressively faster until it explodes a la Link bombs.

So would you go as far as to say that their not OP? Because while something is "dumb", that's not always a good reason to nerf something. Something being dumb is a lot more opinion based then something being overpowered.

Also. If you think that Peach's bomb isnt as deadly as you would expect then there is NO reason to get rid of Gordo. Slow start up, no options, easily avoidable. What percent does he even kill at?

 

[timothyung]

It's just an example, so the killing percentage is not my main point. And did I mention buffing other numbers as well? If the other numbers are buffed, killing at 50 is ok because the move actually have a use, besides hoping for a kill. And even the 9 if it doesn't kill, it sets up for an edge-guarding game at very a low percent. Also the damage is already very good.
Luck should not be a big part a competitive game.

 

[GHNeko]

Luck is the point of judgement. It is a move that is supposed to be completely random. Its the point of the move.

Leave it alone as an exception. :/

 

[timothyung]

Luck is the point of judgement. It is a move that is supposed to be completely random. Its the point of the move.

Leave it alone as an exception. :/

I mean keep the luck element, but all the numbers should neither be over/under powered.

If it's just something you're going to play with your friends for fun, feel free to remove this code from your build.

This.

 

[exfatal]

I read the forums here daily, but I rarely post. Still, I have to put my input in on this issue.

The formula for a good competitive fighting game definitely includes as little random as possible. Brawl+ was made specifically to take the camp fest of vBrawl and make it faster paced, and more competitive. As such, random huge advantages should be removed.

Everyone here has played a Street Fighter game, I am sure. So let's say in SF5 they decided to make Ryu have a 2% chance that his regular hadoken turns red and does 50% of the opponents health. Now sure, they could jump over it or block. But that isn't always an option, and when it happens is random. This is a bad, awful game mechanic. But because Smash Bros is a party game by design, things like this exist. In order to make it more competitive, this luck of the draw needs to be removed.

It's all fine when it's text on a message board, but when you're fighting a peach in a tournament you put 20 bucks on and you're in the final rounds, when you get hit by that bomb, it makes you want to break the game. And for good reason, random, huge advantages are ********. The bomb is a stock loss if it hits, and the beam sword is a match loss against low range opponents. And believe me, if it is in, Peach players who are worth anything in tournies will spend hours learning the ins and outs of using it against every character.

All in all, if Brawl+ is really supposed to be a tourny standard, and you want it to represent any kind of competitive level ground, Peach's items and other random match changing advantages should be removed. If it's just something you're going to play with your friends for fun, feel free to remove this code from your build.

Brawl is meant to be a fun game, and liek many have said b4 if ur in a tourny that far ahead and someone pulls a bomb.. u should no how to avoid that.. turning into a street fighter game is a no.. jsut no and here's some proof

(03:07) EdgeWilder: so question is. instead of giving a random chance of getting over powered bomb or sword or stich face.. peach will only pull turnips it'll be any face but the 1 hit ko face.
(03:07) EdgeWilder: the chances of pulling those were already low though
(03:07) Chris: doesnt make much of a diffrence i think
(03:08) ti83pop: oh...yeah, no big difference

that is from a chat i go to and these guys play brawl compt... but not brawl+ they have no problem with it and both dont main peach.. if ur trying to get new members to play this game.. dont scare them off by doing the unnecessary cause u deem it stupid or dumb.. or not in strategy

 

[Mattnumbers]

I sincerely doubt that most people will notice if peach doesn't pull bomb-ombs and Swords, so no I don't think it will scare people off.

And I changed my mind, stichfaces should stay due to them not being all that rare. Peach's actually fish for them like someone before me said.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I would not call Judgement a "Luck" move because i would not call the Judgement of an almighty smash god luck. He chooses what number you get. Don't make him angry and maybe he wont choose to bring judgement down on you in the form of lightning hammer.

Also tim, ill be honest. After i read the 50 damage thing i completely stopped reading your post, so no i didnt even notice that you said to buff the other numbers.

 

[GHNeko]

I mean keep the luck element, but all the numbers should neither be over/under powered.


This.

1. Then that would kill the reasoning behind using the move really. It has noticable start up, noticable end lag, over half off them are punishable on block, all of them are punishable on spotdodge. Whenever any GaW main uses it they are either hoping for a 9 or a useful number. It's nothing like Peach or Luigi. They fully acknowledge and are accepting taking a random chance with the move when they hit the input. You could even go as far as to say that it's part of GaW's metagame. :/

You'd have to completely rework the move to be different except for how it works.

2. And you cant just remove the code from your set or it wouldn't be official Brawlplussery. :/

3. Matt just reminded me. Stitchfaces, Bombs, Swords, and Saturns in infact part of Peach's metagame as they can fish for them in between stocks and if they opponent is trying to recover. My local peach+ main does that **** all the time whenever he kills me. I completely spaced on that.

Add the fact that they know exactly how to change their playstyle around when they pull an item shows that the item is deff part of the character's metagame.

Same thing with misfire really. When luigi is recovery via side B and he's used a DJ, chances are he IS hoping for a misfire. :/

The fact that certain moves have random elements imbedded into them means that the person picking that character at least knows those factors exist and accepts that by playing that character.

 

[timothyung]

1. Then that would kill the reasoning behind using the move really. It has noticable start up, noticable end lag, over half off them are punishable on block, all of them are punishable on spotdodge. Whenever any GaW main uses it they are either hoping for a 9 or a useful number. It's nothing like Peach or Luigi. They fully acknowledge and are accepting taking a random chance with the move when they hit the input. You could even go as far as to say that it's part of GaW's metagame. :/

You'd have to completely rework the move to be different except for how it works.

And you cant just remove the code from your set or it wouldn't be official Brawlplussery. :/

Luck shouldn't be part of one's skill though. You are hoping for a good number. That's luck, not skill. So I would say completely rework the move
Peach's turnips are different, the players are able to see what type the turnip is before it is thrown. You only know what the number judgement is when the hitbox came out.

 

[GHNeko]

Exactly, and that is the point of the move. Its an 80% luck based thing. And changing the move that drastically without approval with the GaW mains is not good.

Its one of the changes that would be noticed almost immediately, especially if its put on the change list. :V

It just THE trait of the move. :V

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Judgment should be left alone as no one uses that move in a competitive situation anyways.

 

[GHNeko]

I think Judgment should be left alone as no one uses that move in a competitive situation anyways.

....what? That's not true. I've seen GaW's use it as an option to throw off your opponent from the normal stuff. <_<

 

[Hyrus]

Same thing with misfire really. When luigi is recovery via side B and he's used a DJ, chances are he IS hoping for a misfire. :/

And when you go out to try and ledgeguard, you get KOed instantly by an attack with 3x the range and several times the KO power.

It's tripping!

Dashing would sometimes cause you to become vulnerable, removing control from the player and letting your opponent get a free hit (sometimes, a stock). Luigi's Side-B will sometimes cause an attack with several times the range and KO power, giving you a free hit on your unsuspecting opponent. It doesn't matter how LOW the chance is, it's still randomly removing concious control from the player and letting the game decide the match.

Sure, Luigi players "know" they'll sometimes get a misfire. Just like vBrawl players know they'll sometimes trip. It's the same accident.

===

Bob-ombs are overpowered projectiles. They deal huge damage, have huge KO power, and have massive speed/range/area damage. They are, very easily, game deciding and powerful if someone slips up, especially when compared to Peach's alternative down-B's. I don't understand how the people who wanted to remove tripping are in favor of more randomized events deciding the outcome of a game.

 

[timothyung]

But the point is randomness shouldn't be a part of competitive play. Items are banned because of randomness. The judgement is essentially the same thing: You don't know what will happen until your hitbox come out. It's like you're forward smashing with Marth, a bob-bomb suddenly appear near the opponent and he's doomed. Or the bomb appears right next to you, and you lose a stock. Yes, judgement is luck based, and that is the reason why it needs to be fixed.

 

[Mattnumbers]

....what? That's not true. I've seen GaW's use it as an option to throw off your opponent from the normal stuff. <_<

Its a pretty bad move: slow, punishable, it can hurt you. They have a reason people don't expect it you know, its the same reason I don't expect jigglypuff players to use sing.

 

[Wingflier]

Jigglypuff's Sleep is extremely random. Sometimes it does what it's supposed too, other times it can take up to two seconds to go into effect; obviously, this is unacceptable.

Samus' tether recovery is also random. Many times it will go straight towards the ledge as if it's going to grab it, then strangely miss. It happens a lot and there's really no explanation for it, it's just random.

These two things should probably be fixed.

 

[GHNeko]

stuff

Not exactly..

Tripping occurs with anyone, where as misfires only happen with luigi. You have to be on the ground to trip, where misfires happen whenever luigi does a side B. Also, misfires can miss/be blocked/countered/outpriorited/spotdodges/fluuded/etc etc. When a luigi is doing a side B from off the stage, you dont chase him down you wait an react approiately. Generally, people only die from misfires in 1 v 1s when they're trying to go out and edge guard luigi. :/

They have similar concepts in a general fashion, but when it boils down to it, Misfires are alot more managable than tripping is.

But the point is randomness shouldn't be a part of competitive play. Items are banned because of randomness. The judgement is essentially the same thing: You don't know what will happen until your hitbox come out. It's like you're forward smashing with Marth, a bob-bomb suddenly appear near the opponent and he's doomed. Or the bomb appears right next to you, and you lose a stock. Yes, judgement is luck based, and that is the reason why it needs to be fixed.

Not exactly. In that scenario, the bomb omb pops out of no where with no prior warning in the middle of your charge. You dont see it coming, so thusly you cant prevent it from happening nor stop it when it does. With Judgement, you can clearly see GaW is within your sword range so you know to let go of the charge. Fsmash out ranges Judgement, so marth would have to be still charging and allowing GaW to pull off judgement. That situation is entirely controllable by marth, the only random occurance is the number of judgement.

Similar concept in a general fashion but once again, judgements are alot more controlable and manageable than a random bomb spawning in the midst of your attack. Especially judgement.
And once again, something like that should not be approved without the consent of GaW mains.

Its a pretty bad move: slow, punishable, it can hurt you. They have a reason people don't expect it you know, its the same reason I don't expect jigglypuff players to use sing.

Which is the risk in using judgement, and there is only a 1/9 to 1/7 change you'll even get a nine. It's barely safe on hit, and one of those numbers hurts GaW, which is the last thing he needs being an easy character to kill.

Jiggs players use sing, though its extremely risk and situational, but upon success, the reward is huge (free rest anyone?)

Same thing with judgement. Situational move, extremely risk, but with a high payout upon successful reward.

 

[deepseadiva]

As a vBrawl Peach main who dabbles in Brawl+, I will never seriously consider this game if her bombs, swords, and Mr. Saturns are removed. I've always been on the verge on my standing concerning the modifications of this game, but with this discussion I can honestly say it is going too far.

I play Peach solely for this aspect of her character in vBrawl. Removing it is a whiny nerf which sends a clear message as to where this project is headed.

 

[GHNeko]

Woah woah. The only reason this topic was made is because we wanted community input. If the community decides against it, we wont do it. (At least I believe so.)

When we learn something, we see what we can do with it, and something like this is better discussed by the community, because its too big of a change for us to make alone (at least imo)

Don't jump to conclusions yet, please. D:

 

[Pleather]

I'm actually undecided as of yet, but I'd like to throw an idea in.

I think we can all agree with the time tested saying, "If it ain't broke; don't fix it," but would anyone else agree, or disagree, that "Innocent until proven guilty," or its equivalent statement in this case would apply here? As in moves that are not proven detrimental to the metagame or competitive nature of brawl should not be modified. I'm debating about whether or not that would be a good view on this whole fiasco, or if moves like Judgement and to a lesser degree Peach's additional item pulls, Luigi's misfires, and others.

The only move that I'm quite settled upon is snake's mortar. I'm not even a snake main, but I do play as him enough to know a few tricks with him, and I definitely enjoy the small deviations in the trajectories of the shells, for one, they can allow shells to fly off the ledge. Another useful thing is that the shells hit diagonally IIRC, and it's relatively easy to time two shots so that if one hits, your opponent will be combo'd right into the next. I don't see why that should be taken out, but as for the other moves, I'm still caught up in the points that have already been brought up.

 

[Hyrus]

Tripping occurs with anyone, where as misfires only happen with luigi. You have to be on the ground to trip, where misfires happen whenever luigi does a side B. Also, misfires can miss/be blocked/countered/outpriorited/spotdodges/fluuded/etc etc.

I don't see how any of the conditions you described are differentiating Misfires from Tripping. So what if a Misfire is character specific? If tripping only affected C.Falcon, it'd still remove control from the player. So what if a Misfire doesn't always connect? A Trip doesn't always assure the player will get hit, either.

When a luigi is doing a side B from off the stage, you dont chase him down you wait an react approiately. Generally, people only die from misfires in 1 v 1s when they're trying to go out and edge guard luigi. :/

They have similar concepts in a general fashion, but when it boils down to it, Misfires are alot more managable than tripping is.

I'll agree with you here to a limited extent - you usually don't side-b on stage, making the move "avoidable", usually. However, even something randomly BENEFITING the player, only, is still random chance and loss of decisive control. If Luigi gets hit beyond recovering, but a random Misfire saves him and scores him extra points in a match, it's still a random event, regardless of how infrequently it occurs.

Whether it's a chance to become helpless, a chance to launch an absurd attack, or a chance to recover to the stage when you shouldn't, it's the same fundamental principal of the player not physically choosing an action. Yes, you chose to Side-B, you chose to Dash, you chose to input a command - but the results having varying ranges of power and granting significant momentum changes are anti-competitive to the core.

As a vBrawl Peach main who dabbles in Brawl+, I will never seriously consider this game if her bombs, swords, and Mr. Saturns are removed. I've always been on the verge on my standing concerning the modifications of this game, but with this discussion I can honestly say it is going too far.

I play Peach solely for this aspect of her character in vBrawl. Removing it is a whiny nerf which sends a clear message as to where this project is headed.

Your vote is no more valuable than anyone else's. If you're going to jump in here, accuse polite and reasonable people of being whiny and threaten to renounce the project if you don't get YOUR way, I'd say you won't be missed.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Oddly enough, every Peach main I've seen in here didn't argue anything. They just threatened to rage quit. I'm now wondering why I'm wasting my time defending the bombs and swords at all...>.>

In any case, Luigi's misfire was one move I always liked. Sure it was random, but it happens enough that you sort of plan for it. It doesn't break the game, and it sort of compliments Luigi's odd character. If anything should be removed, it should be that stupid chance that your head will get stuck in the wall, otherwise known as the "Spike me" pose.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't mean to sound attacky or superior in value, and I certainly wouldn't make a complete judgment until the final decision is made.

But, in my opinion, it's an unneeded and foolish change if implemented.

As a consequence (not that anyone would or should care) I would doubt any future involvement on my part. In the end, it's whether any important number of players share my view that it's of any concern to the Brawl+ community.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I fail to see at all how Peach pulling an item every now and then is that important. If you're going to denounce the entire thing because of such a silly thing there's something wrong with you. There's no real reason NOT to take it out. And Neko, the chances of getting an item are way lower than a stitchface so peach mains can't really fish for those effectively.

As a Luigi secondary and Luigi main in melee I personally don't like misfire and would love to see it removed in favor of an all around buffed sideb.

 

[JCaesar]

There's nothing wrong with Luigi's misfire. It happens frequently enough that you should always anticipate it happening, and if you want to jump out and attempt to gimp him knowing that there's a pretty good chance he will misfire, that's your choice. You should never ever be surprised by a misfire. It's not hard to position yourself so that you can punish a misfire yet still be close enough to edgeguard if he doesn't misfire.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I fail to see at all how Peach pulling an item every now and then is that important. If you're going to denounce the entire thing because of such a silly thing there's something wrong with you. There's no real reason NOT to take it out. And Neko, the chances of getting an item are way lower than a stitchface so peach mains can't really fish for those effectively.

There's no real reason to take it out either.

She's got 13 seconds at the most to work with a bomb until it explodes, so stalling isn't an issue. It's plain to see when she pulls one, and it's impossible to confuse with anything else. Sans specials and jumping, EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO IN THE AIR CATCHES ITEMS. Including your airdodge.


Obviously the Peach mains like this part of her character, so why are we trying to take it away? Because we like seeing Peach players cry? That's it, isn't it? D:

 

[proteininja]

wow i didnt think i'd be typinghere since im not that active.. but wow.. what uguys are trying to do to brawl is a sin.. i play brawl+ and i love it.. but if u guys take out the stichface, G&W sideB, and Misfire lugi... then wth i cant find myself actaully liking brawl+. I was trying to geet a bunch of people from a different site to play brawl+ i got a few but if they see this they'll defintly quite.. Fun Speed activate... u guys are taking out the fun.. and trying to make charaters too perfect.. no.. i want my luck.. i wanna say to my opppent when he pulls out a stichface or get a misfire on me that he got lucky.. wth is wrong with that? u guys act like this **** happens ever match and ever match if ****s u over or kills u or buffs u compelety No it doesnt! if ur stupid enough to get hit by peachs turnip every time she pulls it out then u hoenstly shouldnt be blaming it on random factor.. dodge it.. peach throwing arm from turnips suck anyways. she pulls out a sword.. *** her A moves get slower her smash att is a now predictable slash.. liek if u seriously lose a match cause of it tough.. he got LUCKY.. you'll get him next time... Dont remove it.. there fine the randomness of brawl a game meant for fun.. is fine..

The English language just rolled in its grave...


Anyway, I would not like to remove these options, but make them more controllable. I think that would be a nice compromise. We just need to discover the means of coding it as such.

I am not a supporter of removing options, but I am a supporter of removing randomness.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The English language just rolled in its grave...


Anyway, I would not like to remove these options, but make them more controllable. I think that would be a nice compromise. We just need to discover the means of coding it as such.

I am not a supporter of removing options, but I am a supporter of removing randomness.

When was the English language buried? o.o

If we make Peach have control over when she pulls out a projectile that kills at 60%, make Luigi have control over when his side B gets ridiculous distance and power, or give Dedede the option of throwing out spiky death at his leisure, those options would quickly become stupid and the best options they have.


Maybe if they were limited to one per match or so, but these often show up even more rare than once a match. So each would be getting a sort of buff.

 

[Revven]

This topic was mostly a query of what you guys thought about the random moves and if some of them (or any of them) needed to be removed or changed in some way. It's looking like not a lot of you want anything gone or changed, it's a bit split. So, usually, when it's split we don't do anything at all.

You can keep debating until you all come up with an agreement (if any at all) but, I don't expect us to remove the randomness (i.e Peach's bombs and sword) because of this split (and even though I am of the opinion her randomness should be gone, I'm not gonna force it down people's throats and expect them to be gone).

Ultimately, it is what the community decides. And if it is split, there is no point in discussing it further (unless you feel the need to).

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I doubt there's going to be any sort of agreement here. A large part of this is opinion defended with a few tidbits of information and the occasional simile. >.>

If nothing's going to get removed as long as there's a split, I'm done.