Dekar173
Justice Man
What Diddy do you play against? If they've never won a tournament I'm going to stab you.
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Diddy Kong's Barrels of Matchups~ Character #3~ Luigi
- Thread starter DFEAR
- Start date
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
Like I said, this is dependent on stage positioning. If Luigi throws out a F-smash from the center in either direction or from the edges of the stage in the opposite direction of the nearest blast zone, you follow the trajectory of the F-smash by holding away from the stage on the directional stick. Most people's instincts tell them to push against the momentum of the knock-back by holding back toward stage.
This is the natural DI reaction to most attacks and is also what usually works, but not against Luigi's F-smash. Holding the directional stick in the opposite direction of the knock-back actually causes your trajectory to angle vertically, and you will end up dying off the top of the stage prematurely at ridiculously low percents as a result.
DIing or SDIing away from the attack and actually increasing the length of the horizontal knock-back in the direction of the far blast zones is counterintuitive, but it is the correct way to DI the F-smash. After I prevent myself from dying off the top, my next immediate task is to angle myself towards the top corners of the stage where the ceiling and side blast zones meet, since this is the longest distance you can DI before you are KOed. For this, I hold up and towards said corner.
I have managed to live off of a fresh F-smash using this DI method. The easiest way to deal with F-smash, however, is - once again - simply not get hit. Luigis are always going to try and corner you at the edges of stages in order to set up for a F-smash or Super Jump Punch kill, and all you really need to do is play an aggressive defense and tack on as much damage as possible before he is forced to change up his KO tactics and mix-up the approach for a change.
This has always been my best solution to telegraphed strategies; just don't put yourself in the situation for it to happen.
I pretty much never die from F-smashes anymore.
If you are getting smacked with a F-smash near the ledge one year into the game, that is completely your fault.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Oh, that makes sense. DIing Luigi's fsmash is the complete opposite of what you'd logically do. I didn't think to do that cause I'm a Melee player, you can't hold away while getting hit unless you want to die real early.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
I was also a Melee player, but Melee has nothing to do with the weird trajectory physics of Luigi's F-smash. It's not my fault if you have no constructive method for dealing with the fact that you have absolutely no evidence or anything even constructive to say in response to me debunking match-up myths.
Don't act like a childish prick just because it appears counterintuitive.
Don't act like a childish prick just because it appears counterintuitive.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Both Characters Air Game Against Each Other:
I'd say Luigi wins in air game since they're much quicker in terms of start up and cool down. He also is a lot more mobile in the air than Diddy, and he can combo with them very well.
Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:
Diddy wins in terms of controlling the stage, but you can't go around smashing every time he slips since he slides so far. At far distances you can dash attack him, at closer distances you can ftilt him, at even closer distances you can grab him, and when he's right up in your face you can smash him, but it's never really a good idea to be close to him since his attacks are extremely limited to their range like his Fsmash.
Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:
Jabs: Stay away
Smashes: Stay away
Dair: Stay away
Grabs: Stay away
Now you can't just go running around the stage and 'SH double laser, phantasm away, sh double laser, repeat.' but I like to stay just a tad bit in range of his fire balls, which is also about the same range as a short dash > to Usmash. Staying within this distance allows you to not get hit by any of his melee attacks and close enough to punish fire ball spamming, but you have to be quick when it comes to his tornado because it moves fast, yet it doesn't have a lot of priority.
Diddy's Moves to Utilize In The Matchup:
Usmash: This out prioritizes all of Luigi's aerials, but he can Nair you out of your Usmash at lower percent's, but you can also Uair him out of the Nair histun.
Uair: Comes out fast and it's a great for juggling Luigi when combined with his Utilt and Usmash especially.
Utilt: Combined with Uair and Usmash it's great for juggling
Fair: Out ranges all of Luigi's aerials except bair where it clashes but I think Diddy's fair might come out faster. It's also GREAT for edgeguarding Luigi, it beats Luigi's side-b unless it's a misfire where I think it clashes.
Ftilt: It's Diddy's longest ranged melee attack and you need to capitalize on your range against Luigi.
Bananas: Obvious.
Banana Plucks: Banana plucks are great for knocking Luigi out of his down-b when recovering from below the stage.
Peanuts: Good for camping, they get more range than fireballs.
Dtilt: Has almost as much range as the Ftilt and it's faster. It's difficult for Luigi to punish since he slides when hit.
Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:
Usmash is key to winning, when you're in killing percentages it's best to just stay away from him and just damage him with dash attack combos whenever you see an opening until you die.
Overall Character Ratio:
65:35 Luigi's advantage. I actually wouldn't say that high anymore, but I don't think it's 60:40 either, somewhere in between IMO.
I'd say Luigi wins in air game since they're much quicker in terms of start up and cool down. He also is a lot more mobile in the air than Diddy, and he can combo with them very well.
Both Characters Ground Game Against Each Other:
Diddy wins in terms of controlling the stage, but you can't go around smashing every time he slips since he slides so far. At far distances you can dash attack him, at closer distances you can ftilt him, at even closer distances you can grab him, and when he's right up in your face you can smash him, but it's never really a good idea to be close to him since his attacks are extremely limited to their range like his Fsmash.
Moves To Avoid and HOW to avoid them:
Jabs: Stay away
Smashes: Stay away
Dair: Stay away
Grabs: Stay away
Now you can't just go running around the stage and 'SH double laser, phantasm away, sh double laser, repeat.' but I like to stay just a tad bit in range of his fire balls, which is also about the same range as a short dash > to Usmash. Staying within this distance allows you to not get hit by any of his melee attacks and close enough to punish fire ball spamming, but you have to be quick when it comes to his tornado because it moves fast, yet it doesn't have a lot of priority.
Diddy's Moves to Utilize In The Matchup:
Usmash: This out prioritizes all of Luigi's aerials, but he can Nair you out of your Usmash at lower percent's, but you can also Uair him out of the Nair histun.
Uair: Comes out fast and it's a great for juggling Luigi when combined with his Utilt and Usmash especially.
Utilt: Combined with Uair and Usmash it's great for juggling
Fair: Out ranges all of Luigi's aerials except bair where it clashes but I think Diddy's fair might come out faster. It's also GREAT for edgeguarding Luigi, it beats Luigi's side-b unless it's a misfire where I think it clashes.
Ftilt: It's Diddy's longest ranged melee attack and you need to capitalize on your range against Luigi.
Bananas: Obvious.
Banana Plucks: Banana plucks are great for knocking Luigi out of his down-b when recovering from below the stage.
Peanuts: Good for camping, they get more range than fireballs.
Dtilt: Has almost as much range as the Ftilt and it's faster. It's difficult for Luigi to punish since he slides when hit.
Personal Strategies To Help With Matchup:
Usmash is key to winning, when you're in killing percentages it's best to just stay away from him and just damage him with dash attack combos whenever you see an opening until you die.
Overall Character Ratio:
65:35 Luigi's advantage. I actually wouldn't say that high anymore, but I don't think it's 60:40 either, somewhere in between IMO.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
How are you any different? You made enough posts in your condescending tone proclaiming Peach as one of Diddy's worst matchups based your matches with Kosmos. What gives you the right to undermine my analysis of Luigi vs Diddy when you have the same **** view point on Peach vs Diddy. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you honestly think Luigi vs Diddy is 50 50 so don't go around like some God thinking you're any more knowledgable on the matchup when in fact you know nothing. Come here and get three stocked by Boss then go back home crying about how wrong you were and were too stupid to realize other people's opinions just MIGHT be as important as yours. Until then, kindly stfu and don't talk about Luigi k.
ps. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you (or any Diddy for that matter) defeat Boss at all in tournament. I'm hoping for it to happen one day, but you certainly aren't going to be the one to do it with that attitude. You'll never beat Luigi until you understand how much of a threat he is. Bashing someone who has more experience than you in the matchup is not the smartest thing to do.
ps. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you (or any Diddy for that matter) defeat Boss at all in tournament. I'm hoping for it to happen one day, but you certainly aren't going to be the one to do it with that attitude. You'll never beat Luigi until you understand how much of a threat he is. Bashing someone who has more experience than you in the matchup is not the smartest thing to do.
Player-1
Smash Legend
I want to play Boss badly, but age + other side of the country johns =(
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
The crux of our argument revolves around DIing Luigi's F-smash.
I am fine with agreeing to disagree on whether or not the match-up is even or, quote-unquote, "Diddy Kong's _Worst_Match-Up_Ever." I don't care about that, because things like that get established over the course of time. This was not what I was arguing at all.
What I was debunking was the false notion (which you have tried to perpetuate for months) that Luigi's F-smash could not be DIed in such a way that you would actually survive after 80% and beyond. I have done this multiple times, and my familiarity with the match-up is such that I've just figured out methods and retreat tactics to avoid the move all together so that that dying off the top of the stage because of questionable DI is no longer an issue.
You, on the other hand, keep on roping in extraneous points that have nothing to do with constructively acknowledging this point, and have decided to try and give me the run-around by steering an argument in the direction of a point I'm not even trying to argue.
Don't be a sore loser just because you lack the ability to evaluate arguments on a point-by-point basis.
Your DI is still bad.
I am fine with agreeing to disagree on whether or not the match-up is even or, quote-unquote, "Diddy Kong's _Worst_Match-Up_Ever." I don't care about that, because things like that get established over the course of time. This was not what I was arguing at all.
What I was debunking was the false notion (which you have tried to perpetuate for months) that Luigi's F-smash could not be DIed in such a way that you would actually survive after 80% and beyond. I have done this multiple times, and my familiarity with the match-up is such that I've just figured out methods and retreat tactics to avoid the move all together so that that dying off the top of the stage because of questionable DI is no longer an issue.
You, on the other hand, keep on roping in extraneous points that have nothing to do with constructively acknowledging this point, and have decided to try and give me the run-around by steering an argument in the direction of a point I'm not even trying to argue.
Don't be a sore loser just because you lack the ability to evaluate arguments on a point-by-point basis.
Your DI is still bad.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Yes, because calling me a "childish prick" after I admitted I was wrong is certainly point-by-point. Good of you to clear that up.
It's still Diddy's worst matchup.
It's still Diddy's worst matchup.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
I read that "concession" as sarcasm (which, upon rereading multiple times, you can't really blame me). If you weren't trying to come off as sardonic, then I apologize, and will happily admit that this side skirmish is a product of my misunderstanding.
There is also the other strategy of just simply avoiding Luigi all together once you reach F-smash KO range, which you haven't acknowledged; this can be a major turning point in the match, especially if the Luigi you face heavily relies on it to KO. It is not a concession of your lack of skill if people would just admit that they are falling for F-smash setups which they shouldn't be falling for in the first place.
There is also the other strategy of just simply avoiding Luigi all together once you reach F-smash KO range, which you haven't acknowledged; this can be a major turning point in the match, especially if the Luigi you face heavily relies on it to KO. It is not a concession of your lack of skill if people would just admit that they are falling for F-smash setups which they shouldn't be falling for in the first place.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
It certainly was a misunderstanding, I was in no way being sardonic. I was honestly saying what I typed, that it "makes sense" for that DI to work. You read a little too hard into that. Oh well, it happens. ****ing internet drama.
tocador
Smash Lord
Ima get burned by that flame war...
/jokes
IMO, luigi is easier then peach ^^, from personal MU experience.
And no, im not going to state all the reasons why, cause i really dont have the time now, but from MU experience i can kinda say Peach is harder then luigi.
/jokes
IMO, luigi is easier then peach ^^, from personal MU experience.
And no, im not going to state all the reasons why, cause i really dont have the time now, but from MU experience i can kinda say Peach is harder then luigi.
Gnes
Smash Master
DONT U EVER MAKE MELEE PART OF YOUR JOHN OR ILL KILL U!!!!
Now since thats done, lets talk about what else makes luigi "diddy's worst matchup"
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
Okay, cool. My bad. Everyone knows I'm a prick too, but I apologize for being so harsh. It's not the first time I've explained that DI process, only for it to go ignored.
Anyway, to clarify, there's a Luigi player in crew, and he got to a point about three months ago where he was two-stocking and borderline three-stocking me consistently, KOing me at the edge of stages with F-smashes at like 79%. At first I tried not DIing at all, which had intermittently modest results. Then I actually watched where the F-smash was sending me when I DIed against it as opposed to where it sent me when I didn't DI, and that's how I arrived at the tested conclusion that the F-smash can be DIed if you curve it away from the ceiling blast zone by (counterintuitively) DI/SDIing into the far horizontal blast zone.
I also never get killed with F-smash anymore and play a ridiculous defense against Luigi, never really feeling compelled to approach. There's no shame in running away from a character that can kill you quite early and playing hit-and-run in order to reverse positional advantage. This is essentially my game against Luigi.
I recognize that there is a skill disparity between my crew-mate and Boss, however, and if I will freely concede that Luigi is a terribly difficult match-up if he manages to destroy me consistently.
Such is the dilemma with determining match-up ratios.
Anyway, to clarify, there's a Luigi player in crew, and he got to a point about three months ago where he was two-stocking and borderline three-stocking me consistently, KOing me at the edge of stages with F-smashes at like 79%. At first I tried not DIing at all, which had intermittently modest results. Then I actually watched where the F-smash was sending me when I DIed against it as opposed to where it sent me when I didn't DI, and that's how I arrived at the tested conclusion that the F-smash can be DIed if you curve it away from the ceiling blast zone by (counterintuitively) DI/SDIing into the far horizontal blast zone.
I also never get killed with F-smash anymore and play a ridiculous defense against Luigi, never really feeling compelled to approach. There's no shame in running away from a character that can kill you quite early and playing hit-and-run in order to reverse positional advantage. This is essentially my game against Luigi.
I recognize that there is a skill disparity between my crew-mate and Boss, however, and if I will freely concede that Luigi is a terribly difficult match-up if he manages to destroy me consistently.
Such is the dilemma with determining match-up ratios.
ADHD
Smash Hero
I just hold up and my fat diddy survives, guess I'll hold towards the corners.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Eh, ADHD, Atomsk's Weegee isn't much. He plays very lazily and obviously just recently picked him up, thinking it'd be enough of a hard counter to destroy you in tourney. Luckily enough, it didn't though, right? :D
I play against Overgames in the finals at every tourney we run, a Weegee player, and I'd have to say that Weegee is most certainly a counter to Diddy, and one of his most difficult match-ups, if not the most.
Overgames catches the bananas without fail, neutralizes popgun spam with his aerials, counters my Diddy humps with fair/bair all day, and at the very least, trades hits with my fair with his bair.
The only reason I stay on top in tourneys is the fact that I outtechnical him and get gimps just about every match.
He has DI'd through my usmash on several occasions, and that being said, I'm extremely hesitant to use it against any other Weegee mains, as it's basically a free upB against us with its horrible ending lag.
**** Weegee, seriously.
(Overgames plays Peach, Marth, and Weegee, all of which he dominates everyone else in our tourneys with, but the only time I ever struggle against him, he's using Weegee). It'll take playing another Peach main or an extremely good Marth in order to convince me that one of these two is a worse match-up than Weegee. Hopefully Chris can make it out to HOBO 17 ;D
I play against Overgames in the finals at every tourney we run, a Weegee player, and I'd have to say that Weegee is most certainly a counter to Diddy, and one of his most difficult match-ups, if not the most.
Overgames catches the bananas without fail, neutralizes popgun spam with his aerials, counters my Diddy humps with fair/bair all day, and at the very least, trades hits with my fair with his bair.
The only reason I stay on top in tourneys is the fact that I outtechnical him and get gimps just about every match.
He has DI'd through my usmash on several occasions, and that being said, I'm extremely hesitant to use it against any other Weegee mains, as it's basically a free upB against us with its horrible ending lag.
**** Weegee, seriously.
(Overgames plays Peach, Marth, and Weegee, all of which he dominates everyone else in our tourneys with, but the only time I ever struggle against him, he's using Weegee). It'll take playing another Peach main or an extremely good Marth in order to convince me that one of these two is a worse match-up than Weegee. Hopefully Chris can make it out to HOBO 17 ;D
thumbswayup
Smash Master
The problem is Boss doesn't spam fsmash or even go for it often. He's patient and smart. He punishes everything you do and he utilizes all of Luigi's prime killing moves like up b and up and down smash when he traps his opponent. Now, I don't get fmashed all three stocks when I play Boss if that's what you're thinking. Hell, I go a lot of matches in a row without getting hit by it at all, but he still ***** me. Don't forget about Luigi's ability to gimp Diddy pretty soundly. He's got the tornado and his dair and fair to help him edgeguard you and put you into a position where you're in your barrels under the ledge and then he's got you right where he wants you.
Player-1
Smash Legend
Diddy gimps Luigi > Luigi gimps Diddy.
Can we stop talking about Boss? We shouldn't be basing a matchup off how much the best person with that char ***** some other random guy with that char.
Can we stop talking about Boss? We shouldn't be basing a matchup off how much the best person with that char ***** some other random guy with that char.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
I mean, he's the one you gotta worry about 
Dekar173
Justice Man
Got any vids of you against him? You may honestly just need more tech skill :|
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Unfortunately, I don't, but my tech skill has always been alright. I can do any of the stuff you guys do just fine. Boss is just too smart and gay with Luigi.
Teh Future
Smash Master
Diddy is very punishable when he is stuck on the ledge, recovering, or above you without a banana. It has nothing to do with tech skill.
ESOJOSE
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2008
- Messages
- 660
This match up is kinda gay, but to stand a chance patience is key as well as some camping =P. dont rush in a lot, just build up damage slowly by throwing bananas peanuts. If u hit him wit a banana, if he slides far cartwheel can hit him usually. Glide tossing a bannana downwards and forcing him to land on it makes him fall in place so u can smash him afterwards. Also a fsmash from luigi is ******** ex: last tournament i played boss we were both last stock wit him at 90% and me at 70%, i got hit wit a fsmash and died. My di wasnt the best b/c it came out so fast and i didnt expect it so even wit good di dont expect to live it past bout 90%. one more final thing for now, DONT cartwheel into a luigi who is blocking b/c they can up b u right after and there goes ur stock.
Dekar173
Justice Man
If you're beating up on Luigi and camping properly using instant throws and tech chases, you won't be cornered too often.
I can only judge someone if I've seen vids of them, without something to judge off of and analyze, I can't give you advice on what to do to up your game and overcome Boss. :o
Tech skill allows you to perform certain mindgames that you'd otherwise be unable to do (dribbling while watching and baiting your opponent into mindlessly approaching) or charging your popgun then canceling it into the same.
You have to master these things before you can use them effortlessly in match.
Being able to do them while money's on the line, and doing them while focusing entirely on them in training mode, are two different things.
I can only judge someone if I've seen vids of them, without something to judge off of and analyze, I can't give you advice on what to do to up your game and overcome Boss. :o
Tech skill allows you to perform certain mindgames that you'd otherwise be unable to do (dribbling while watching and baiting your opponent into mindlessly approaching) or charging your popgun then canceling it into the same.
You have to master these things before you can use them effortlessly in match.
Being able to do them while money's on the line, and doing them while focusing entirely on them in training mode, are two different things.
Gnes
Smash Master
Stop using this justification. Im not meaning to gang up on u but most of us will not ever meet Boss in tourney.I mean, he's the one you gotta worry about
Hanson also had a problem in utilizing this argument strategy in his thread about peach. Perhaps the trouble u have with Boss is not per say the character he plays, but Boss himself. He might have just figured u out as a player.
My problem with this "worst matchup" argument is that mostly all the issues u guys are having problems with such as peanut neutralization, MFK being beaten, naner usage etc. are all universal problems. At high levels of play peanuts are not gonna be that useful, so what if luigi fairs them away, any chr. with a good fair can do that. MFK huh...snake's Up tilt will beat that everytime. See where im going with this.
chimpact
Smash Lord
I almost beat Boss in apex, and I'm not even that good. He dash attacked me at like 60% on castle siege last stock and game 3, and i just stood there after I rolled away. Then I choked and lost.
Just learn how to DI his moves and the matchup overall. SDI his up tilts and dash attack. Don't fall for the tornado when you are using your barrels. Luigi will try to bair you when you side B. Try to bait him off stage, cause DHGR works on luigi.
Don't do stupid stuff like trying to hit him while he's combo'g you. It's only gonna make it worse.
Just learn how to DI his moves and the matchup overall. SDI his up tilts and dash attack. Don't fall for the tornado when you are using your barrels. Luigi will try to bair you when you side B. Try to bait him off stage, cause DHGR works on luigi.
Don't do stupid stuff like trying to hit him while he's combo'g you. It's only gonna make it worse.
wouldnt that diminish the move? o.o perhaps some baiting can help the match of course?
so agreed on 60-40 luigi favor so far?
Dekar173
Justice Man
60-40 sounds in the right neighborhood. Not unwinnable, just a match-up that you need to know like the back of your hand if you want to succeed.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
wow that's funny, alot of the stuff are missing. luigis weren't even notified about this.. but that's okay, it's your meta-game <3
i'm going to guess you guys don't know what FFAD/Buffering, sliding jabs, nair shield pokes are, fsmash mindgames (LOL SO MUCHFAIL)
6/4, 65:35 is pushing it with no bananas,
55:45 or 5/5 with bananas.
6/4 if the luigi knows how to use bananas SMARTLY.
just ratios I pulled off my head at nearly 5am in the morning so do not kill me, I play Ninjalink and mm'd ADHD (which I got wrecked he wouldn't even let me neutral strike FD or let me pick my own CP LMAO too good)
i'm going to guess you guys don't know what FFAD/Buffering, sliding jabs, nair shield pokes are, fsmash mindgames (LOL SO MUCHFAIL)
6/4, 65:35 is pushing it with no bananas,
55:45 or 5/5 with bananas.
6/4 if the luigi knows how to use bananas SMARTLY.
just ratios I pulled off my head at nearly 5am in the morning so do not kill me, I play Ninjalink and mm'd ADHD (which I got wrecked he wouldn't even let me neutral strike FD or let me pick my own CP LMAO too good)
Reposting my post from the luigi boards....
I play vs diddy's very often....mostly Dapuffster and ADHD for good ones.
Luigi is one of the few characters that is so exceptionally floaty that diddy has problems comboing him. The main problem for diddy bananas is going to be the single/double banana lock. Diddy has problems comboing luigi due to his floatiness. Watch out for diddy's f-air for ko's.
Diddy can use his banana however in a different way. If you recover wrong or tornado by the edge, diddy can take out a banana and hit you out of the tornado and then gimp you otherwise.
Luigi's back air and fireballs help a lot here. N-air is a good move up close and tap a combos are moderate. Down air helps also.
Seriously, learn to glide toss if you want to beat a good diddy. Glide toss combos help a lot vs bananas. you can also throw a banana into running a and up close you can smash down a banana into a down smash.
As said, nado also helps.
Your aerial game up close is much better than diddy
Your short range distance is better than diddy.
Your long distance game is worse due to bananas
Your mid-range distance allows fireballs but at the same time diddy has range enough for aerials.
Keep up the pressure
Best neutral is either BF or Yoshi's. BF messes with diddy's spacign and Yoshi's has a low ceiling
if your forced to have either FD or SV....I prefer SV. FD allows diddy to space way too well.
Best counterpicks for you are anything small, a low celinig, or something that allows you to get diddy off the stage. Frigate (the flips mess with banans and the small stage with mostly ungrabbable ledges means a gimped diddy), Haliberd (due to the low ceiling), Green green's (low celing), and if you like neutrals, Battlefield. I have even tried Rainbow cruise a few times
Stay away from overly large stages or stages that allow diddy to recover easier. Ban FD.
I personally dislike Norfair vs diddy's. The lava allows diddy to recover better than normal. For similar reasons, I dislike Brinstar
Luigi kills quicker than diddy but diddy has insane spacing. Make sure you win the first round....or there will be problems with Diddy's counterpicks
55-45 luigi......60-40 might be stretching it
I play vs diddy's very often....mostly Dapuffster and ADHD for good ones.
Luigi is one of the few characters that is so exceptionally floaty that diddy has problems comboing him. The main problem for diddy bananas is going to be the single/double banana lock. Diddy has problems comboing luigi due to his floatiness. Watch out for diddy's f-air for ko's.
Diddy can use his banana however in a different way. If you recover wrong or tornado by the edge, diddy can take out a banana and hit you out of the tornado and then gimp you otherwise.
Luigi's back air and fireballs help a lot here. N-air is a good move up close and tap a combos are moderate. Down air helps also.
Seriously, learn to glide toss if you want to beat a good diddy. Glide toss combos help a lot vs bananas. you can also throw a banana into running a and up close you can smash down a banana into a down smash.
As said, nado also helps.
Your aerial game up close is much better than diddy
Your short range distance is better than diddy.
Your long distance game is worse due to bananas
Your mid-range distance allows fireballs but at the same time diddy has range enough for aerials.
Keep up the pressure
Best neutral is either BF or Yoshi's. BF messes with diddy's spacign and Yoshi's has a low ceiling
if your forced to have either FD or SV....I prefer SV. FD allows diddy to space way too well.
Best counterpicks for you are anything small, a low celinig, or something that allows you to get diddy off the stage. Frigate (the flips mess with banans and the small stage with mostly ungrabbable ledges means a gimped diddy), Haliberd (due to the low ceiling), Green green's (low celing), and if you like neutrals, Battlefield. I have even tried Rainbow cruise a few times
Stay away from overly large stages or stages that allow diddy to recover easier. Ban FD.
I personally dislike Norfair vs diddy's. The lava allows diddy to recover better than normal. For similar reasons, I dislike Brinstar
Luigi kills quicker than diddy but diddy has insane spacing. Make sure you win the first round....or there will be problems with Diddy's counterpicks
55-45 luigi......60-40 might be stretching it
This match-up's dependent on the Luigi's ability to handle bananas and get through Diddy Kong's camp, IMO. Diddy's Fair is useful but not THAT useful, and Luigi can kill and gimp Diddy at fairly low %s.
With Diddy's typical banana combos not working on Luigi but still being a nice middleweight for Luigi to juggle, I'd say this match-up is in Luigi's favor 6/4. It drops down, though, if Luigi isn't able to handle the bananas very well.
With Diddy's typical banana combos not working on Luigi but still being a nice middleweight for Luigi to juggle, I'd say this match-up is in Luigi's favor 6/4. It drops down, though, if Luigi isn't able to handle the bananas very well.
Gnes
Smash Master
Player-1
Smash Legend
You've got it pretty much right except for the stages. I wouldn't CP Frigate against Diddy. Frigate isn't a bad stage for Diddy, I actually enjoy playing on the stage. What I like most about this stage against Luigi is that if you throw a banana at Luigi on the ledge that you can't grab on, then he just slides off of the stage and you have a chance to gimp him.
Brinstar and Norfair are also very good stages against Diddy with Luigi, both of them mess with banana control and allow Luigi to abuse his aerials more.
Halberd is also iffy because I consider it a good stage for Diddy, obvously better for Luigi, but I'd choose Lylat over Halberd if I was the Luigi.
I played BigLou about a month ago in 3 tournament sets, and every time we played BF I actually beat him where as SV we went back and forth, but I'm not saying that BF is better than SV for Diddy, I'm just saying it depends on the Diddy you're playing.
Also, once the Diddy knows the matchup, the Luigi player will be getting gimped more than the Diddy player. I've talked to ADHD, and he told me that he still doesn't know the Luigi matchup as well as he should.
I really don't see how we can say 55-45. Some of the people saying this have agreed that he is one of Diddy's worst matchups, and if not, the worst matchup, and yet we're tieing him with MK. Personally, I'd fight MK over Luigi any day. 60:40 is the minimum, 65:35 is the max.
ScAtt77
Smash Journeyman
i'm just going to post a little tidbit of info. If your trying to gimp/edge guard Luigi, wait for him to use his tornado. It has pretty high priority and if you do manage to knock him out of it, he can use it again.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Haven't contributed yet, so yeaah.
I think what I've been said has already been said. Camp like a...well, just camp.
Spacing is really key in this matchup.
Fair, Ftilt, banana throws, and occasional peanuts work really well. Fair trades hits with Bair (apparently, never had it happen but I don't play good Luigi's so...) and outranges everything else that he has. Same as Ftilt, which is also good because it can be upangled if he tries to jump with an approach. You can follow up with a boosted grab if you space a banana throw well (you can also follow up with a dash attack if you space it really well, but luigi's nair can intercept a followup and that's not fun). If you get a grab, pummel (you need the %) and throw him towards the ledge.
Banana throws just space him away from you, because of the traction. and while peanuts probably won't hit often, they force him to do something. Really, he has bad range aside from his bair, so it isn't too hard to avoid hits. He can cover range with his downB, and while surprising, you just need to jump and d-throw/z-drop a banana.
Honestly, Luigi shouldn't be killing you often with Fsmash. It has horrible range where you shouldn't be anyway, and it's easily telegraphed, plus he has no real setups towards it. However, you don't really have a setup for a kill move either, so...
...honestly I don't know too much about this matchup, although I've never had trouble with Luigi.
I think what I've been said has already been said. Camp like a...well, just camp.
Spacing is really key in this matchup.
Fair, Ftilt, banana throws, and occasional peanuts work really well. Fair trades hits with Bair (apparently, never had it happen but I don't play good Luigi's so...) and outranges everything else that he has. Same as Ftilt, which is also good because it can be upangled if he tries to jump with an approach. You can follow up with a boosted grab if you space a banana throw well (you can also follow up with a dash attack if you space it really well, but luigi's nair can intercept a followup and that's not fun). If you get a grab, pummel (you need the %) and throw him towards the ledge.
Banana throws just space him away from you, because of the traction. and while peanuts probably won't hit often, they force him to do something. Really, he has bad range aside from his bair, so it isn't too hard to avoid hits. He can cover range with his downB, and while surprising, you just need to jump and d-throw/z-drop a banana.
Honestly, Luigi shouldn't be killing you often with Fsmash. It has horrible range where you shouldn't be anyway, and it's easily telegraphed, plus he has no real setups towards it. However, you don't really have a setup for a kill move either, so...
...honestly I don't know too much about this matchup, although I've never had trouble with Luigi.
pastaboy
Smash Champion
i have a tun of vids playing with a luigi in my crew. I might post them or should i post them in a video thread for the sake of organizationg? eitherway they there pretty informative
ADHD
Smash Hero
I noticed something that luigi really can't punish. If you keep spamming the glidetoss backwards down it prevents him from approach whatsoever. It's just hard to utilize right because he can tornado very fast. For sure it's 65:35.
The Sauce Boss
Smash Ace
I think saying "fair out-ranges everything luigi has" is pretty misleading, because usually it will just trade hits. It is true that diddy's fair has more range than luigis aerials, but diddy's fair is not disjointed so you just end up hitting luigis attacks. In essence the extra range doesn't really matter. Clashing attacks won't help you win because luigi kills earlier. This combined with the fact that diddy's fair is way slower than luigis aerials makes fair not that useful.
Fighting luigi is all about camping. Punishing poorly spaced aerials with shield grabs, and chip damage with nuts and naners are key. Even with luigis long slide on his trip you can still follow naners up with your grabs and dash attacks if you can predict which way he will roll. The match-up is just played at a much slower campy pace.
60-40 luigi favor.
Fighting luigi is all about camping. Punishing poorly spaced aerials with shield grabs, and chip damage with nuts and naners are key. Even with luigis long slide on his trip you can still follow naners up with your grabs and dash attacks if you can predict which way he will roll. The match-up is just played at a much slower campy pace.
60-40 luigi favor.