DGames Summer Mafia Bash - Day 2 Begins. Deadline Day 2 begins - Deadline 8:00 A.M. CST Monday 6/24

[Pythag]

I just started a fun new wagon. You'd fit right in here, Pythag. Pocket me and I won't end up pushing the easier Pythag wagon.

In general, I'd really like your take on the slots, the hammer, and where to look. How many scum on which sides of that lynch? Who looks worst of the on and off the wagon groups? Who looks the best? Who looks bad, but you wouldn't vote them?

People who look bad : FF and Rockin for the JTB wagon

People who look : tom, Lore, Gorf,

People who look good : Kary, Ryker

People : Nabe

I think it's a bad read to say that JexS/Spak is scum based on the hammer. Why?
I'm town and I voted and miscounted. The timing of the posts and his later reasoning = I can see the ninja happening.
I voted for doop because I thought he was scummy,

Both UP and Ran strike me as being emboldened after being considered town.
Don’t know if it’s scummy, per se, But I feel like I’m repeating JTB’s arguments with regard to Ran's tone. It just seems like a shift happened.
Not sure how much water it holds, but there you go.

UP is doing some weird play rn, so I'll be revisiting my opinion on him.

Lore is interesting, I'm trying to figure out how to interpret his play based off of Maven as I disagreed with Maven's early interaction with Marshy.
Would 2 mafia try to build a case against marshy that early? Seems like a stretch. On a reread doop spoke after Maven first spoke up against marshy. This slightly clears Maven, (to me) based on the doop flip. Lore really wants to build a case on UP, and while UP is behaving weird, I don't appreciate that he put the words in my mouth that I find UP scum. I had him as town, i found him scummy, that in my mind places him back at null. MAYBE null/scum. So....strange.

I also don't totally get his reasoning for why I'd involve myself in him / UP. I saw a post I thought was really bad, I really REALLY try to leave IRL stuff / previousi mafia games or emotions out of the current game I'm playing. I would've thought it was unfair to jump on UP just because of what happened last game. I just thought it was a really lousy post that was mean spirited, and mealy mouthed. It seemed like someone who felt they were confirmed town in the eyes of everyone else so they could get away with anything.

I don't get Tom. I get the feeling he's being very coy. unsure about his vote on doop with regard to his alignment.

Rockin' : I get most of his reasoning, his early posts especially I sympathize with, but I really disagree with JTB. I guess this makes him null/scum

Mac : I have really enjoyed all of his posts. I disagree with JTB, but I don't think this makes him scummy.

FF : Early scum lean on him, I thought it interesting that he liked Kevin's play, and wagon, but didn't like JexS for joining the wagon. Struck me as odd.
Then I don't like him being on the JTB vote. I believe I've articulated that earlier. FF is probably my scummiest read. (which isn't saying a whole lot, but there ya go)

Gorf : ascended. Seriously though, he's hard to read, I definitely agreed with him earlier. I'm trying to figure out what I think right now. processing his lore vote.

Kary : super thoughtful posts. Solid reasoning. Good arguments. A+

I'm also trying to look at all the people looking at me.
I'm an easy target, (I understand why) in which case it would be very easy to look town just by pushing for my lynch.

Anyhow, sure, Ryker, I'll join you for now on this wagon.
vote FrozenFlame

As for your questions about wagons :

With 13 towns people, it's easy to get a wagon without any mafia on it.
The doop wagon had 1 confirmed mafia on it.

If mafia wanted to hide in the numbers, I actually suspect looking early in the votes, as they are easier to slip by. gorf and ran specifically. Tom is also interdasting on that wagon, but for different reasons.
no one expected doop to be killed, so if it's a bus, i think it's accidental.

I think therefore that there were 2 on the doop wagon.
2 were off then.
1 on the JTB wagon
and this leads me to draw a blank. I'd like to hear Nabe post.

 

[Lore]

As requested by Ran:

i dont hold the same sort of credence as you do in his wagon hopping being scummy. from what ive seen hes also developed reads because of that wagon hopping. aside from that his town screams brownie townie so, yea

I think he's fine. I'm in the same boat as Gorf in that I don't see the wagon hopping as scummy, especially after Ryker has been telling everyone to put their vote somewhere useful. Earlier on, you stated that he seemed nervous, to me, he seems more excited to be in this game. His play has been consistent so far, he's been open with his thoughts and responding to literally anything and everything.

These two are mostly just "I disagree" and were made both before the early lynch and D2 Utopian behavior.

I think his behavior here is actually consistent overall. (One such quote is below) It shows he cares to let us know that, that he doesn't care. He does it more than once, I don't think he'd be doing this as scum because this garners negative attention his way, when actually he's trying to be honest. Also again, it was easy to misunderstand your post as attacking him, and defending one self is totally fair. Wagon hopping can be a fair tactic. I think you just need to focus more on the why. This is just off the top of my head, to give you a better answer I'd have to re-read all his votes and tell you in more detail, but I'm already working on a Gorf side-project.

Hard disagree on scum not wanting to go "I don't care." Attempting to brush off questioning, reads, or impressions with "I don't care" only helps scum, and if done with enough force of personality, it can be done without gathering negative reactions.

It's especially weird when it's "I don't care! Here's a word wall that implies how much I care." UP has been consistently hyper defensive while also trying to act like he doesn't care.

Wagon hopping isn't too bad all the time, but when it's a hop to almost every single wagon? It's weird.

In general I politely disagree and disagree further after UP's Doop vote, his reaction to the quick hammer, and his D2 play so far.


Next I'll look into JeXs as requested.

 

[Lore]

Lore is interesting, I'm trying to figure out how to interpret his play based off of Maven as I disagreed with Maven's early interaction with Marshy.
Would 2 mafia try to build a case against marshy that early? Seems like a stretch. On a reread doop spoke after Maven first spoke up against marshy. This slightly clears Maven, (to me) based on the doop flip. Lore really wants to build a case on UP, and while UP is behaving weird, I don't appreciate that he put the words in my mouth that I find UP scum. I had him as town, i found him scummy, that in my mind places him back at null. MAYBE null/scum. So....strange.

I also don't totally get his reasoning for why I'd involve myself in him / UP. I saw a post I thought was really bad, I really REALLY try to leave IRL stuff / previousi mafia games or emotions out of the current game I'm playing. I would've thought it was unfair to jump on UP just because of what happened last game. I just thought it was a really lousy post that was mean spirited, and mealy mouthed. It seemed like someone who felt they were confirmed town in the eyes of everyone else so they could get away with anything.

On the putting words into your mouth on UP: your post strongly felt like you were leaning that way, with your emphasis on various things. If you truly didn't mean to have him as scum, it at least appeared that way to me.

On the reasoning for you going with UP: I had a feeling it wasn't the case given our past conversations before this game, but I was curious to see what you had to say. I didn't want to mysteriously go "I have a theory" then not say what it was when you answered my questions.

Also if you have any questions Re: Marshy stuff and how I felt on it, feel free to ask. I think I was decently clear at the time, but I'm down to clear up any issues.


I will also add that my read on you, Pythag is mostly predicated on Utopian's alignment combined with Doop's actions towards you. My post by post of you was done with that slant, admittedly. I still think there's enough weirdness to act on here, but Utopian remains at the top of my scum pool.

 

[ranmaru]

@Ran I don't like your case on Ryker, You're really going after his lack of voting and his supposed lack of scum reads, when, at least to me, it looked like he was pushing wagons to get people to put their feet down SOMEWHERE so that finally they could have something to speak about and question. I'm not sure what hard scum reads you want from a D1 anyway, it's literally the day with the least amount of information. It's usually all over the place. Plus, if you're going on that, what about KevinM, who pushed a wagon with no reasoning (sorry kev) Yet clearly he was town. (4,000,000% confirmed if I recall)

I am indeed. He pushed wagons in the middle of the day, when they don't actually count as much near the end of the day. Red doesn't fly here in Dgames. KevinM is the exception to the norm. It doesn't mean we should be letting that type of play pass. Can you talk to me more about the JTB argument on tone? I'm wondering what you are repeating. Also, why do you feel Ryker looks better today?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

#1091: Ryker asks about Kary v Lore SvS - i doubt they’d fake it but Lore getting mad is no town!Lore read I’ll tell you that much. He used AtE to literally win Tomafia 4.

Lore do you agree with Tom's assessment on your meta here? Is there any other info about your meta that you can share

Unvote vote doop

I'm ok with this

Doop was in your "safe for now" pile in your read list. what changed between those two posts?

i'm also curious about your thoughts on Pythag



and since i'm not currently voting anyone so vote: JTB

 

[ranmaru]

Macman I highly implore you to re-read Ryker and get back at me when you do.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

this thread moves too ****in fast btw

it would be nice to slow down a bit and let people (including me, but especially the replacements and some of the less active members) take some time to get fully caught up

 

[ranmaru]

Fair enough, I'll try to post less and Ryker I want you to post less as well. I know in Penguin Power Redux we lost because I let scum keep up with me and town couldn't keep up the pace. Smack me if I still keep posting.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Macman I highly implore you to re-read Ryker and get back at me when you do.

ranmaru ok will do, but see my previous post - theres a ton of other stuff i wanna look into first

but i will say that my initial gut reaction to your ryker push, esp after skimming some of Ryker's recent posts is that that slot seems so obv town to me

 

[Lore]

ranmaru JeXs sticks out to me as someone who was catching up while sick and had a fuzzy memory, but one post in particular sticks out:

Can go:
Rockin
Nabe
Maven

Would be ok with going:
Pythag
Doop

Not the play:
JeXs
Tom
KevinM
Ranmaru
Marshy
Gorf
Kary
Mac
Ryker
Poyzin
FrozenFlame
JTB

Rockin was a "housecleaning" vote which was apparently an in joke according to Ryker, and I've brought up how Doop voting for Rockin was weak in that light. The other two "Can Go" players are Nabe and Maven, inactive slots.

The next two are Pythag and Doop, one of which is scum. In a hypothetical where JeXs is scum, this could mean that the Pythag push was a group effort meant to mislead town, but I'm not sure if I buy that. I also don't buy that JeXs would be bad enough to do such a weak bus here on two scum mates. So IF JeXs is scum, I don't think that we are seeing him bus more than one team mate here.

Yes that throws off my theory. I still lean towards Utopian being scum given reactions, but I admit that JeXs fits the profile after this read post. Just doesn't have the stronger Pythag connections.

 

[Lore]

Lore do you agree with Tom's assessment on your meta here? Is there any other info about your meta that you can share

I firmly disagree with it, and I'm honestly a bit annoyed that he framed it that way. But that's a discussion that I'd honestly rather take out of this thread rather than continue it here. I firmly don't believe that I used AtE to win.

He also knew me years ago and when I was at my worst; he knows that I used to get extremely tilted even as town. I still do at times, but I try to keep it in check and usually succeed. Kary was an unfortunate exception, due to me taking his post the completely wrong way. I still feel awful about that one. Saying town!Lore doesn't get tilted is misleading at best.

 

[ranmaru]

I mean, it's WIFOM, but I'm surprised Ryker didn't die.

Why haven't you followed up on your case on Ryker? (As in, why haven't you asked him to respond Day 1 or Today; Also him not dying doesn't mean you still can't ask him to respond)

 

[Pythag]

... I'm honestly a bit annoyed....

AtE! Lynch him!


jk

 

[Lore]

Oh ****ing hell is Utopian just a newbie like I was, getting supremely tilted and defensive at literally everything?

 

[Pythag]

I am indeed. He pushed wagons in the middle of the day, when they don't actually count as much near the end of the day. Red doesn't fly here in Dgames. KevinM is the exception to the norm. It doesn't mean we should be letting that type of play pass. Can you talk to me more about the JTB argument on tone? I'm wondering what you are repeating. Also, why do you feel Ryker looks better today?

red doesn't fly here in dgames

lol at least you're consistent. You clearly don't believe in slight reads.

I just read a tone shift in you from the beginning to now.
Earlier you were a spitfire, jumping down everyone's throat. Now you're acting much more in the driver seat.
I don't know if that's because you passed through some fire (Re: after you tried to /out and your tom conversaiton) and you're feeling safer, or what.
I just noticed.

JTB was noticing your tone in reference to how you were talking between UP and Kevin. I'm just repeating a tone argument, though now it's in reference to the whole town.

Same vibe I get from UP.

I furthermore disagree with your reasoning that wagons in the middle of the day don't mean as much.
He was (imo) doing the best job at creating concrete discussion, with which you can hold people's feet to the fire. See : voting, and then making them substantiate the votes. that means more than empty discussion.

It's similar to UP saying "my vote only means something when I want it to"
votes are always meaning something. Even if they don't result in a kill.

I don't know if Ryker looks BETTER, as much as the same.
Ryker is fine for not being on the doop wagon, because no one expected it to go through.
How many people got caught with their pants down on that one?

Ryker seeking to generate positive discussion marks him as town to me. I've never played with him or this style before, but it's fantastic.

Does that clear things up?

 

[ranmaru]

I am purposely being in the driver's seat this phase. That's because Marshy and KevinM are dead, and I want to oppose Ryker's direction, as I scum read him. I'm not sure who else would step up to do so, maybe Macman, but I'm not sure how often he'll be on. (Also he obv town reads Ryker >.<) That is better, Pythag. I'm not sure that's enough for Ryker, though. I remember you stating a 'like' of Ryker much earlier in D1, but that was a very surface level read. You still have a surface level read of Ryker.

 

[Pythag]

You still have a surface level read of Ryker.

So if I had said Ryker was obv town would I get a pass too?

 

[ranmaru]

No, since your reasoning is weak. Also since I expect to disagree with Mac on reads meta wise, I expect to see his reasoning once he re-reads Ryker and we can talk it out.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I am purposely being in the driver's seat this phase. That's because Marshy and KevinM are dead, and I want to oppose Ryker's direction, as I scum read him.

I find this hilarious combined with your order that I keep my mouth shut.

Ran I love you, but you can keep me from driving no more than I can keep you from posting. If I want to, I will. I have INTENTIONALLY not strong-armed this game save for when we got so hung up on doing nothing and I attempted to start moving things in another direction (Doop vs Pythag).


But let's talk. What is it you want me to do this game? What can I do at this juncture that would appease Ranmaru?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Like, I actually don't know what I have done wrong in your eyes.

I've responded to you when you've asked things of me. I've pushed the things I think need pushing. I've actively tried to push discussion in this game. I've played it openly. I'm still playing it openly. What is it that I have or haven't done that has me so far up **** creek with you?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

LORE D1

Spoiler

page 4

Spoiler

Ryker, you actually know(knew) me pretty well. I was TBG on AiB and NS2. I think my meta's changed a lot since then bc I've been herding cats on Mafiascum where people are ****ing dumb, but I suppose that's for you to judge.

Psa to all, I work 10-6ish Pacific time, so don't expect me during those hours. I might be able to mobile post if I'm stuck in compile hell but don't count on it.

vote marshy. It's really incongruent that his first post is both encouraging breadcrumbing and also warning against giving role info.

this is doop's first post. first two lines are whatever but the third line is where he votes marshy for his intro post. note that maven had said "this is forced" and voted marshy like a page before. this is important for later.

page 6

Spoiler

yeah, sure, read below


you're actually not all that wrong here, and I think I'm closer to maven's mindset than you think. I read it, it felt non-genuine, so I re-scanned it to try to poke at what made it feel off to me.

neither piece of advice is bad, but the difference between them makes the post not read to me as a natural line of logic, it reads to me as you going into it with a mindset of wanting to be seen giving advice/LAMIST.

to answer Gorf, I also really don't get why you're keeping an RVS vote on someone who's absent, and not voting me? it's weirdly cautious and I thought my post might prod you into it, but for some reason you double down that you don't like my stance on your opener and that it's different from maven, but you don't want to follow up on that. maybe you're just a less aggressive player, and it's just our styles being opposed, but I can see scum!you not wanting to look like you're omgus-ing me and settling for the tepid fos instead. why fos? why not vote?

can

oh whoops I hit submit I'm tired

can someone else weigh in on this? I know i'm making a lot out of a little, given that it's like page 6, but this is weird, yes?

doop justifies marshy vote by citing maven's post and diving into it to elaborate. then goes on to try to get others' opinion to stir it up. dont think this is hecka incriminating to maven slot but the connection certainly exists coming from scum!doop

page 16

Spoiler

My punk *** is about to enter hour 10 of work. I'm about to be on the bus home, I loosely followed through the day on mobile.

vote rockin

Don't like Maven wagon. Will explain more when not on mobile

voices distaste of maven wagon, first real mention of the wagon at this point

page 17

Spoiler

I mean, is your maven vote doing anything? Why him over pythag?

more pushback against the maven wagon, trying to ask, instead, about a competitive pythag wagon.

page 18

Spoiler

alright I'm home. Maven's wagon irked me for a couple reasons. One, it had Marshy and Pythag on it which gave me the heebies, but two, there was a pretty large difference between it and Rockin. Both were inactive, but Maven was under fire because inactivity metas him as Scum, whereas Rockin was under fire because of chronic usefulness issues. On a Rockin ML, that's sad, but we've done our housekeeping and that's the point of his lynch anyway. On a Maven ML, what the **** do we get? We just shrug and go "welp, guess we mis-meta'd, that sucks"

reason to defend maven wagon:
1) marshy and pythag being on it
2) argues mavens wagon because of inactivity gives us no info. compares with with rockins comparable (by his standards) scenario at the time. at least rockin is "chronically useless" instead of just inactive.

both pretty ****ing bad reasons to defend someones wagon. maven was defenseless and, from the pov of the thread at the time, had some solid progress. pretty interesting to note the stance on the maven wagon, especially since it had nothing to really defend.

I guess I wasn't clear.

it seemed to me like rockin was up more for housekeeping reasons and maven was up more because people went "inactive maven = scum" rather than because they think maven will continue to have ****ty activity all game

I don't love housekeeping lynches but they're not the worst. Activity meta lynches are hot garbage.

doubling down on defending against the maven wagon.

Wait hold up.

The rockin wagon was because rockin is bad? I thought it was because he's chronically not doing anything?
Maven is a player with chronic activity problems? I don't recall that being the case, and iirc someone posted in this game that he's usually active.

realizing rockin wagon is cuz hes bad instead of chronically not doing anything. misunderstanding the maven point ryker had made earlier, because ryker clearly meant hes being an activity issue in this game. curious that in the very beginning he says mavens like one of the only people hes played with. wouldnt he know that thats not a meta to really base maven off of, or if it is, hed base discussion off of that? point is, hes acting like he doesnt know his meta here. weird, but again, not much more than noteworthy on second look.

page 25

Spoiler

lore joins the game replacing maven

Up to page 11 now, just a couple quick gut reads of the content so far. Still reading though. A lot of this early stuff is "yoooo the playerlist is sick, it's good to see everyone again" content, so it was quick to read.

Marshy's first post being about "tips to town" felt kinda weird, but I haven't seen much else weird since then.

Doop bringing up their shared meta to Ryker immediately felt a bit weird, but I can't put my finger on it. Could have been scum faking this "reunion," having already had it in scum chat. I'm 75/25 on this, with 75 on Doop as town just excitedly sharing a past history.

Poyzin reeks of someone in a large game who's nervous about being the center of attention, responding to literally anything and everything. This also stacks with this game being so full of vets and legends of DGames.

Ryker just looks ****ing stoked to be in the game, and it's hard to get a read on these posts.

I'm not sure if I understand the Ranmaru wagon as of page 11, feels a bit like early game pressure rather than a full wagon. Putting a pin on this one to reread it and try to understand it more. Especially with later page context. If anyone wants to sum it up in like a paragraph, I'd appreciate it.

Those are the only impressions that leap out to me as of page 11, most other people seem to be playing it safe or laying on decent pressure.

first real post. lore expresses the same sentiment about marshys opening point, but is more... diplomatic about it. next para is lore saying doops opening shared meta w/ ryker thing was "weird" but in a noncommittal way. these combined sets himself up to be on the defense against the doop wagon, since he seems to come to a more towny conclusion on doop from this "weird" exchange. note that the doop wagon was put on pretty ****in low priority in the sights of town at this point, and people like ran and kary are voicing sus on marshy. botd says he doesnt know that at this point. but he doesnt really need to in order to set himself up in the marshy v doop circumstance early on. he doesnt take a hard stance yet anyway, very soft one. especially if it becomes prominent later.

says poyzin is nervous about being the center attention because hes responding a lot/all the time. still baffled at this conclusion, idk how he can parse that poyzin was being nervous. i read the same posts and just think he wants to be involved. no sway one way or another. in fact, if anything his post volume would be ****in weird from a newbscum!poyzin. pretty farfetched reasoning imo. doesnt understand ran wagon, pins it as early game pressure and to reread later.

Page 20 now, this sequence really struck me as weird.






Marshy comes down, lays down some reasoning, and JeXs and Mac IMMEDIATELY hop on without hesitation. Like, within 15 minutes of Marshy's post.

I feel like there's a scum between JeXs and Mac, but it's a gut instinct. Do you two care to explain why you hopped on so quick?

jtb wagon suddenly appearing is weird. pushback against the nature of it.

Caught up, it's a bit dense though so I'll probably have to reread multiple times to really process things.



Maybe, but the sheer speed of it is fishy as hell to me. I'm leaning towards JeXs as being the worse of the two, but I want to sit on my thoughts for a bit before firmly deciding and posting something long. I have a big side project I'm working on for this game to compile my notes and help clear up my own understanding of what has happened so far.

It's enough for me to Vote: JeXs though. No balls, no glory. People need to put their votes down.


Tom upon further reading feels like a townie who put in some good pressure on someone, backed off, and is sidelaning a bit now. Currently leaning town but would like to see more activity.

votes jexs for... gut on the jtb wagon veracity? seems weird to put a vote on it just from that, and he doesnt vote poyzin for his thoughts on him if hes confident enough for "no balls, no glory." like its bad, but he at least has reason for that. idk. weird contrast from his kinda shallow opening post on the surface, but really its the same thing but just with a vote attached?

not inherently bad to voice concern on the jtb wagon formulation, but the omissions (jtb himself in particular) are noteworthy.

page 26

Spoiler

Also small note: I'm not sure if I'm seeing Doop as scummy, at least in reference to his reaction towards Marshy. Like I literally just joined today and found Marshy's post kinda weird. Marshy's later content helped ease that weirdness, but Doop's reaction seemed like what I would have done in that situation tbh, more or less.

Some of the other points against Doop seem decent, but I'm pretty firmly in disagreement on pushing him mainly on his first bit.

lore takes another wishy washy chance to address the doop marshy situation. he rescinds weird vibes from marshy but sticks to not liking the first post and doubles down on doops reaction being aligned with how he would have at the time, but that "some of the other points against doop seem decent." super uninterested in developing a read on a player who has decent points against him because... he agrees with the way he reacted to marshys first post. in isolation, its an easy reaction to have. the case against doop was moreso predicated on his approach to expressing that reaction. it felt contrived, despite it having been a "gut read." so to base your disapproval of a wagon, or developing your read on a player, that has "decent points against him" because of he said something you agree with feels p antitown.

i dont buy the possibility that hes tunneled in too hard on something else or that hell want to figure it out later. at this point, all he has is his aforementioned vibes on poyzin and feeling uneasy about the speed of the early part of the jtb wagon. not too much in the way of developing either of those reads either, but i guess its not like it doesnt exist. just seems weird to me that hed rather develop his completely gut feelings on a topic thats got a lot of development already, instead of one that objectively doesnt have much at this point.

I'll humor you by responding to literally anything and everything. How does me doing so mean that I'm nervous about being in the center of attention, wouldn't it mean that I want attention for always replying to questions? If I'm quote-on-quote nervous in your eyes, I challenge you to a thorough read of my playing thus far. I don't care what result you get, but if you think that I'm hiding anything, which I may or may not be, then I'm all yours. I can confirm I am not nervous.

I was saying my read of your play up to page 11 as a defense of it, saying that I don't find it scummy. Don't really understand your tone here, it's weird and hyper defensive as hell.

lol quote-on-quote

in response to poyzin above. as seen in pg 25 section, lores post ****ing looks like a sort of scumread on poyzin. using "reeks," saying poyzin is "nervous" and responding to everything as a response. which poyzin actually defends pretty solidly later iirc. i dont wanna fud up this read but its almost uncanny how he really ****ing phrased that the way he did and thought it came off as a townread, and now hes using an imo fine rebuttal to predicate a scumread. the response is "weird" and "hyper-defensive as hell" regardless of the fact that he misinterpreted the stance post. honestly the response looks more defensive than poyzin's.

page 27

Spoiler

You directly said that you don't find Tom as Scummier than JTB. You also said that you'd hop on a Tom wagon faster than you hopped on the JTB wagon, and now you're saying that it's mostly for pressure only?

And on top of that, now you're saying that you wrote the post as a joke, over a page and multiple posts later? Come on.

You find JTB scummy, yet you would hop on a Tom wagon even faster only due to pressure. Except for now you're saying the "faster" bit was a joke. You're being pretty inconsistent here, and the late as hell "I was mostly joking" just makes it even more fishy.

Vote: Mac


#HBC | Kary You're usually solid at calling out when someone is going down a pretty useless rabbit hole. Mind giving your thoughts on the above? It's just not adding up for me, and I'd appreciate a second perspective.

another really weak avenue to use to go down to drop a vote on, but i guess botd suggests poyzin wasnt an avenue he wanted to pursue at the time. this is another really far place to go to justify uncertainty of those on the early jtb wagon. i mean, realistically hes being really liberal with his vote too, so to say this instance of wanting to bounce on wagons is scummy for this reason seems pretty out of left field and reachy. and again, why doesnt he wanna explore a doop wagon whos points against it are "decent" and that he feels weird? idk, its incongruent. reads kinda like wanting a reason to pursue it, which tbh isnt necessarily a bad thing in and of itself.

to address the dumb lore-kary meltdown, i dont really think it clears either of them tbh. the most it tells me is that they arent scum together, because realistically thatd be a weird way of coordinating that and i think as mates theyd rather just either deal with it in private or forget about it am

page 28

Spoiler

Replying to this then backing out a bit, since I'm legitimately a bit ****ing pissed right now (not at JeXs). I'd rather not tilt and color my responses to people with it.


This is where you go "I voted to hop on then planned to expand reasoning later", not "if I had done the same later it would have been fine." Come on.

Did you already have reasoning for a JTB vote posted before you hopped on the wagon, like earlier in the game? The main thing sticking out is that it happened so quickly AND had no reasoning attached, so if I missed something, that'd change a lot for my current read.

lore seems to like using not being read up a lot when making stances and reads and stuff. as scum, its a solid method to back out of reads you shouldnt be staying on if you find out you cant back them up later on, especially when theyre pretty lackluster in quality. there are reads there, but theyre empty and pushed for really weak reasons.

Fair on the Reek and Nervousness bit there, I agree that my wording was a bit poor. Mind not literally quoting the dictionary though? Lol. Just simply saying "your use of reek and nervous made it seem negative" would have been all good in my book.

The whole post felt hyper defensive, and I can go in depth on that I guess. But it was mostly just the sheer amount of words in your reply, combined with the overall tone and arguments used. However, since I see that you were viewing my original post as negative, it makes more sense.


Also no offense, but "I don't care" and word walls don't exactly mix lol. That's still a bit weird to me.

acknowledges his wording to have been "a bit poor" (quite the understatement). says the whole post felt hyper defensive cuz of the amount of words used (kind of incongruent with his feeling like that was a towntell earlier on in the game?) and tone/arguments. curious if he goes in depth on why the tone/arguements were bad cuz, i mean they werent. then says it makes sense seeing how he was viewing his original post as negative. i feel like he has this ebb and flow of making a point and refuting it, making a point and refuting.

wrt wagons note that hes also very much not addressing jtb or frozen wagons, in spite of them being solid topics at this point in the game. he has made a half committal defense against the doop wagon, and seems to be asking for a summary of the pythag wagon. instead he elects to look at jex/mac for how they got on the jtb wagon and now investing in poyzin.

Fair, fair. What I meant was the "I don't care" combined with so many words that they clearly care, haha. But I get what you mean.

I'm currently compiling all vote counts so far, and I think I've noticed something related to this. Will update when I finish up.

expounds to kevin on this "i dont care"/wall contradiction thing. really drilling into this tiny thing, i just cant imagine someone gravitating toward a sus based on something that stupid. and from his post before this, clearly neither can kevin lol.

#HBC | Red Ryu Just wanting to confirm before I post them, but we are allowed to post screens of spreadsheets etc that we make, right?

Vote: Utopian and will explain shortly in my next post, will not include spreadsheet screens until mod gives the OK.

poyzin vote after i guess he realizes his pursuit of mac is dumb? idk but he says he has an explanation in for next post.

page 29

Spoiler

@giraffelasergun You're co-modding, right? Mind confirming the screenshot ruling?


But I'll go ahead and state my case before that happens. Unless I am misreading, Utopian has hopped onto nearly every single popular wagon, usually as the 3rd or 4th vote. No other player besides Ryker compares unless I'm misreading my data, and Ryker has pretty clearly stated his intentions to get wagons rolling and spur discussions.

poyzin is scum because hes been on nearly every wagon, but ryker gets the pass for the same thing, but he verbalized that his voting was to "get wagons rolling and spur discussions.". idk do you really need to say forthright that your vote is being used as a number when your actions seem to be showing that thats what its being used for, and when poyzin previously said "i dont really trust my own reads?" from memory, most if not all of his votes seemed to involve him involving himself with developing the reads. if anything, again from a noob, this level of willingness to pressure different players would seem bold coming from a scum!poyzin. if he cares about what people think of him and nervous about being interacted with (like lore previously stated), why does he involve himself consistently with the wagons that are spurred on? the logic makes no sense, and its correlated with rykers but ryker gets a pass. almost reads like lore just hasnt really read his posts, but clearly he has from when he said poyzin seems nervous or whatever he said when he said it. also, if you scumread someone, usually youre down to read their posts to get a clearer picture.

All post numbers will be referencing vote count posts, not the actual posts. The vote counts are what I compiled.

Utopian started on JeXs on #423, jumped to Maven in #577, jumped to Ran in #654, went to Doop in #758 as that ball started rolling, leapt over to JTB in #840, then stayed there while it remained the wagon with the highest vote count and momentum.

This is opportunistic behavior, and it is highly suspicious to me. No other player has this level of wagon-chasing.

references to poyzin appearing on wagon votecounts (again, not when he actually voted for them, so without reading into why) and calls it opportunistic behavior. "no other player has this level of wagon chasing." this is exactly like what marshy called jtb out for when he originally cased him: hes bastardizing the **** out of poyzin's play and misrepresenting his involvements with the wagon by omission of context. and if context doesnt matter and the behavior is just opportunistic, theres no reason for rykers not to be either. honestly the play looks more opportunistic than poyzin's. assuming lore!scum and poyzin!town, its a weaker townie that he can justify having a read on and pushing. popular? no, but he seems keen on ignoring popular wagons for some reason (including one thats flipped scum despite there being decent points against doop that he can explore instead of trying to shut the wagon down). its a lazy read that looks bad on the surface, and is permissible to people who dont look much into it.

Also pop quiz. Who's wagon DIDN'T Utopian jump to? Rockin. Depending on Utopian's flip (which at this point I assume will be Scum), I find Rockin much more suspicious in light of this.

drawing a connection to rockin upon a poyzin!scum flip. but lets not humor the idea of rockin being independently scum though.

Attempting to rile me up with that first line isn't doing you any favors. Come on.

I did miss Pythag, thanks! I was only looking at vote count posts. So you're saying that out of 5 that you bring up here, only 1 wasn't just a wagon-chasing vote. Not sure how this helps your case.

Pretty large defense of Rockin here too, interesting. You even throw in some WIFOM about your flip to help with it. Even more interesting.

If this is a TvT to you after literally only a few hours of me posting in general, you must be psychic.

Yeah, you've been throwing your vote around. You've also been the only player doing this, besides Ryker who laid out pretty clear reasons.

The last bit is kinda irrelevant; the wagons making sense doesn't prove or disprove my suspicion of you. Heck, you'd be incredibly dumb as scum to do this behavior to wagons that don't make sense.


After these two posts, I'm further settled into my vote and am very comfortable there.

really taking any chance to frame poyzin as scummy. im not gonna dissect every single instance from now on, but like everything he says has this sort of nefarious undertone to it? reads tonally as arrogant in the dynamic of the back and forth, like just willing and able to twist everything hes saying to the worst perception possible. compare, again, to my large analysis post on jtb where he starts getting to a point of reframing peoples plays and showing them in as bad of a light as possible instead of scumhunting or developing reads. he doesnt care about furthering this read at this point. the read is decided, and everything poyzin does adds to it. cant see town motivation from this vantage point.

at this point in the game, lore's interests have been in the early formation of the jtb wagon, defending people from pursuing the doop wagon, and poyzin. like, sure, hes looking to develop his reads on jexs and mac, but they were extremely weakly founded reads in the first place so its hard for me to hold that to any sort of credence.

The condescension is strong with that first line.

First bit is very relevant. In a single phrase of "this is TvT," you establish that you see me as Town and that you're trying to associate yourself as town by proxy. Seeing me as Town this quick, after I've only played for a couple hours and the previous slot-holder had plenty of votes on him? It's weird.

Second bit has been established and not debunked. It's still something that is leading me to a scum read of you.

second line is a perfect example of this negative framing. poyzin said hes feeling like lores pursuit of him is townie, so hes starting to see this formulate as tvt. does lore seriously think its sus to get a townread on someone off the first couple of posts theyve made? actually yes he does, just look at his townread on doop. his first few posts contained the marshy vote and the rationale behind it, so he's clearly shown that he sees that as viable. but poyzin does it and its weird? what a way to frame that. also the wording of "youre trying to associate yourself as town by proxy" is another one of those subtle negative passive framings.

page 31

Spoiler

Made it to the beach place, will catch up a bit before crashing into bed. Long day tomorrow of fishing.

My activity will definitely be slowed, and my vote remains on UP. The extreme wagon jumping still doesn't sit well with me, along with previously said things. (No offense UP, reads are just reads.)

I am open to hearing arguments about other wagons, but I intend to only swap unless necessary to prevent a No Lynch. I'm at the point in my reads where flips are kinda needed, although some of that is due to still trying to digest all the content so far. It's a lot. UP is my only definite lynch target right now because of it.

doubles down on poyzin vote, open to hearing about other wagons but doesnt wanna swap off. his reads are "at the point where flips are kinda needed?" so far he has one scumread. doesnt seem to have expressed much in the way of townreads either, but youd think hed have an independent want to expand his lynchpool past one player. or give his take on the popular wagons that have happened.

page 32

Spoiler

I hate the fact that I'm feeling alone in suspecting Utopian, minus Pythag.

Statistically there's no way that literally the entire scum team is defending Utopian here with him also on it.

And if Utopian is scum, then why are so many people defending him instead of taking an easy bus through his misplays? I don't see a universe where at least one scummate wouldn't take this easy of a bus, unless Pythag and Utopian are scum together.

On the flipside if he's town, I suspect that at minimum one scum is defending him. But I'm not sure where to take that thought further

I feel my own suspicion of Utopian deflating, and that's frustrating.

interesting change of tone from 9:23 (pg 31 quote) and 9:59 (this post)

seems flustered that hes the only person aside from pythag voicing sus of poyzin and goes onto trying to see what conclusions might be drawn from either of his flips because of this lack of a wagon forming. still not interested in developing reads on things like the popular wagons independently, prefers to stay in this little place in the thread instead.

Maybe. It's just definitely frustrating to feel this wrong, but I also can't shake my gut feeling on Utopian. I'll sleep on it and see what I think. Just won't be active tomorrow for stated reasons.

diminishes his read on poyzin by calling it gut, and says its frustrating if hes wrong.

he mentions later in the page in response to ryker that hes frustrated at being wrong on his tunneling of poyzin. if he had been interacting in the game and had this stance on poyzin for this amount of time, then the feeling of frustration would read as more genuine to me, possibly like how ran is probably feeling about his pursuit on marshy. but what is ran doing in response to that? still tryna find scum. werekill is not, and hasnt been around all game. hes given himself an out to have delayed scumreading.

page 33

Spoiler

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of lynching someone for inactivity when they've been open about how they had serious **** happening this week.

But unless Nabe posts and votes today, that's an inactive that I'm down for.

against lynching doop, minimizes the case that previously had "decent evidence" on him and makes him look "weird" and portrays it as a case of inactivity. dude is literally defending against the wagon without reading into the case against him. offers nabe as a better lynch instead. prefers an inactive slot with zero connections as opposed to an inactive one with plenty.

Heading to the beach for a couple hours, where I will have low signal. But I will keep reading and reply when I can.

Right now my big issue with the Doop wagon is that I had the same gut feeling as both him and Maven towards Marshy. However, I feel like Marshy's reaction to Doop was a genuine attempt at pressure and not an OMGUS. The FoS in particular gives me that vibe.

I'll mentally compare him to the other wagons as the day goes on. But I will say that people seem to have reacted very strongly to Doop's actions, even today. A flip would give solid info, but I'm not sure if it's the flip I want the best between him and JTB.

I still don't understand the Rockin wagon, to be frank. I'll deep dive this afternoon and read all of Rockin's posts.

upon doop reread, sticks to his agreement with his initial reaction to reading that exchange between him and marshy. he agreed with it, therefore scum couldntve done it i guess. says hell compare him to other wagons. says people have "reacted strongly" to doops actions. unless i missed it, first mention of jtb at all outside of the formulation of his wagon, and its a passive noncommittal worse-than-doopread of jtb. but nothing to it. doesnt understand rockin wagon.

i mean i guess he either forgot that he had previously said the doop wagon had fair points and he looked weird when addressing it early on? not gonna keep on keeping on about how holding that same conclusion thing as the thing that influences his read on doop, but his resistance to even developing his read on it past that really doesnt sit well.

And yes this means I'm reading JTB as part of that too and deciding how I feel.

or i guess he doesnt really have a read on jtb yet. just that out of the two hed prefer the info gained from jtbs lynch.

and then D1 ended. start of D2, still havent seen **** about jtb. hes made a connection between doop, poyzin and pythag but atm thats pretty low priority for me. dudes still straight content living in his own little world hes carved out for himself, and part of me wants to wait and see if he just stays not paying respect to scumhunting over things that dont really directly concern the position hes carved for himself. but hes done enough of that to prove itself. so blam.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm not sure. But I have a theory that I'm working on. I want you to proxy your vote to mine once I'm done.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Why haven't you followed up on your case on Ryker? (As in, why haven't you asked him to respond Day 1 or Today; Also him not dying doesn't mean you still can't ask him to respond)

I think Ryker is town.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I want more votes on UtopianPoyzin

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

summary:

-serious connections with doop soft defending against/derailing the maven wagon on the basis of it being "an inactive lynch with not much info to gain anyway," and lore defending against/derailing the doop wagon on the basis of agreeing with his initial take on marshys opening post (which has plenty of faulty logic in and of itself), all while being resistant to developing his read on him
-VERY lacking in the way of reads and developing reads. only two real scumhunting motivations were looking into the jtb wagon formation and poyzin. jtb wagon thing was weakly founded and came and went without much of a trace. latched onto poyzin for hopping around wagons despite ryker doing the same thing. excuses ryker for it, but lambasts poyzin for it. foundation for this is poyzins appearances on votecount. doesnt consider looking into the circumstances around it, and clear signs reading on a surface level to come to this conclusion. feels really opportunistic to have drawn themselves to a read that, on the surface level, seems like it should work.
-continues to frame anything poyzin does as nefarious and scummy. striking resemblances to how marshy then i analyzed jtbs development in the thread. nothing seems to be approached objectively or with interest in further developing his reads with him.
-after not getting approval for poyzin read from thread, becomes flustered and continues to not do anything about scumreading. drops the idea of considering doop and jtb, but doesnt make anything of it, even after the Day starts.

there are other points littered in there but i think that pretty much covers up the big points. even when toDay started, he just kept on about his personal sect of the thread rather than taking a step back and looking at other points. no jtb reanalysis like he promised. he doesnt look terrible tone wise in general places that arent poyzin related, but hes proven to be uninterested in furthering reads that arent this one narrow pathway, and even then, theyre pretty much set in stone.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Made through that Gorf behemoth.

He covers exactly the sort of twisting to frame his narrative that I was trying to talk about toDay. I don't like it.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm not sure. But I have a theory that I'm working on. I want you to proxy your vote to mine once I'm done.

Lmfao

Daddy don't play that game. You want that vote, you sell me on it. It's really easy to get me onto a wagon, but you're going to have to give me a wagon I am okay with being on.

If I proxy my vote, it's generally a ploy to make a slot like JeXs commit to a read.

 

[Lore]

Will be out most of the rest of today, had something come up.

I do think the tunneling/twisting accusation is ridiculous when the Day has only been going on since this morning, and I especially dislike Gorf framing several of my posts as "why is he bringing this up now" when they are me giving reads and takes as I caught up on the thread. I can go post by post with rebuttals, but I'd greatly prefer people asking me to respond to specific ones. That post is a behemoth and a half.

I've literally only been in this game three irl days. Friday, Saturday, and now today. If I've had time to cover different avenues besides the ones I'm focused on (especially when I was open about being busy with Father's Day things) then I dearly want to know what extra time you're referring to.

 

[ranmaru]

Lore, what's your read on Kary right now? (With reasoning)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I’ll update the title when I have either a free moment at work or when I get off work.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

to address the wagon commotion yesterDay: i dont hold much weight to the actual act of the wagon speeding up to oblivion at that point. he kinda scumflipped/gave up/imploded at the end, and idgaf to stir fud on it being a plan to make this happen. honestly, both sides dont have too much to gain with that: doop didnt look firm about being the play until he selfvoted. he basically sealed his fate there. why does scum just ballsily cut off practically two days immediately after that? they dont really gain much. now can scum have just tried cashing in on the lynch and it got out of hand? possibly sure, but i dont really think im incriminating anyone based off that. theres more to look at.

 

[ranmaru]

Here's the theory:

KevinM was killed because he was mostly wrong, not right. Especially on UP. I'm thinking scum are using that opportunity to push UP while Kevin was wrong on him. Not only do they get to push UP (who I still think is town), they get to kill KevinM, an aggro player.

Doop self voted because scum may have planned to stay off the wagon entirely. (If there was one scum, it would be Pythag) In the case this happened, I would think Kary, Lore, and Ryker would be the remaining scum.

#806 is a good post from Kary, but Kary doesn't follow up after Ryker side steps it. His #763 was also not a good response to my question. He asked Ryker why he was leaning so hard on Maven but didn't ask about Rockin who had less posts than Maven at the time, while Ryker had stated he'd use two bullets, one on Rockin and one on Maven: #245 Kary's first interaction with me in game is telling me how he doesn't understand how I got the Maven scum read: #773 He mentions that he thinks I'm either a daft townie or just trying to deflect attention off me since I got heat early game. Kary mentions Ryker is town as an answer to why he has not followed up on his case, but it doesn't answer for why he didn't do so Day 1. #1503 So all in all, I think Kary is scum who asks good questions but doesn't have the intention to actually follow up his case. I think the 'daft townie or trying to deflect' post was mostly fud, to defend Maven and he asked if I thought about Nabe instead.

I like Gorf's case on Lore. Lore recently has shown to be hard headed with his push on UP, and had forgotten to reply to (me, gorf, jex) before even considering his analysis on UP and everyone else. It just makes him asking us to weigh in as phoning it in. After I asked him to reply, he disagrees entirely with everything and continues to push. This would line up with my theory that scum are trying to benefit off of the KevinM kill by pushing UP. I found Maven's exit reasoning to be valid (and put him to null from it so I could read Lore), but I still feel Maven as scum, would take that long to post and he took a while to replace out as well.

This means that Jex might be town, but Jex should still be discussed further. But more so because I find these players to have a higher chance of being scum, rather then by his own play being townie (as I don't think it was). Luckily, Spak can contribute reads and we can read him from that.

Scum: Kary, Lore, [Ryker/Pythag]

So, I'm cool with voting Lore, and am fine to wagon Kary as well.

Unvote; Vote: Lore

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Will be out most of the rest of today, had something come up.

I do think the tunneling/twisting accusation is ridiculous when the Day has only been going on since this morning, and I especially dislike Gorf framing several of my posts as "why is he bringing this up now" when they are me giving reads and takes as I caught up on the thread. I can go post by post with rebuttals, but I'd greatly prefer people asking me to respond to specific ones. That post is a behemoth and a half.

I've literally only been in this game three irl days. Friday, Saturday, and now today. If I've had time to cover different avenues besides the ones I'm focused on (especially when I was open about being busy with Father's Day things) then I dearly want to know what extra time you're referring to.

if we go with that, the amount of time that you spent going in on poyzin shouldve been spent, like, reading the thread and getting an overall feel. instead, you found something on poyzin, kept up with poyzin and latched onto a small thing and continued to build stronger suspicion with the posts he was making in real time. without having put focus on reading the thread. because i can swear the only thing that was brought up about poyzin from before you joined the game was that page 11 blurb. even if it wasnt, you still decided to drive your read home in real time instead of reading the thread and getting better acquainted with the ecosystem of the game so far. you pursued a read, then decided to get a better feel for the thread. it doesnt change the fact that your pursuit of wagoning poyzin was a scummier choice than to read the game as a whole and have a better set of thoughts about the game as a whole BEFORE doing that. i see it as an opportunistic approach to scumhunting (latching onto a player for so little before getting a feel for the thread as a whole) especially considering how it unfolded with poyzin.

im curious about what posts im bringing up as "why is he bringing this up now," i really dont know what youre refering to.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

On the wagon, you have UP who was reading as a newbie I thought was town. Said newbie would have to have decided, immediately, to jump the wagon and bus Doop as soon as he self-voted. I find that one a pretty hard sell.

This is a bad take. Scum don't operate independently.

Doop made the decision to vote for himself. It's plausible that he told his buddies to hop on his waggon, using the self-vote as an excuse if necessary.
If Poyzin is scum, he's not making that decision on his own, and there's no reason to think it was an 'immediate' reaction, either- it could have been planned ahead of time.

Frankly, all of your analysis in this post is lackluster. It reads less like analysis and more like gut reads and hot takes.

I don't have a problem with you pursuing frozen, but there are several people on this waggon with questions to answer I don't know why you seem to be burying this line of inquiry.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ok Ran, you need to talk to me.

So,...

I am a leading scum candidate on your theoretical scum team for

1.) Trying to steer the game off of two townies (by process of elimination) and into a conversation about two other members of your scum pool.
2.) Contesting Lore (your current vote) for a bad vote on UP (who you claim is town).
3.) Not being pushed by Kary who you think is scum for not continuing to push me after I started providing more of the content Kary claimed I was lacking.

How is Kary, who you think is scum for not doing more that you like than was already done, more scummy than a slot like FrozenFlame who you have expressed distaster for in the past? How is it scummier than slots like JTB and Rockin?

I don't get your values unless you're doing the Lore thing and just taking a square peg and pounding it into a round hole because you want it to fit.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

This is a bad take. Scum don't operate independently.

Doop made the decision to vote for himself. It's plausible that he told his buddies to hop on his waggon, using the self-vote as an excuse if necessary.
If Poyzin is scum, he's not making that decision on his own, and there's no reason to think it was an 'immediate' reaction, either- it could have been planned ahead of time.

Frankly, all of your analysis in this post is lackluster. It reads less like analysis and more like gut reads and hot takes.

I don't have a problem with you pursuing frozen, but there are several people on this waggon with questions to answer I don't know why you seem to be burying this line of inquiry.

Because it's WIFOM. It's all WIFOM and I don't think it's very valuable WIFOM. Read Lore's posts. For better or worse, he took the Doop flip and immediately searched for the rationale that makes UP scum instead of trying to find out what Doop's interactions could mean for progressing his reads.

 

[Lore]

Quick reply while I have signal, working in a metal building on a critical issue but waiting for a tech to arrive. Will respond to Gorf later, since it'd be longer.

Because it's WIFOM. It's all WIFOM and I don't think it's very valuable WIFOM. Read Lore's posts. For better or worse, he took the Doop flip and immediately searched for the rationale that makes UP scum instead of trying to find out what Doop's interactions could mean for progressing his reads.

Question on UP.

You did games with me way back in the day. You know how angry and defensive I got on things, how I tilted at the slightest opportunity.

Do you see similarities in UP's behavior and my own past behavior? I worry that I've been barking up a scum tree when it was actually just an angry newbie.


Same question to Kary, since you're voting on UP too. I'm having serious doubts man, and I don't know if it's legit or just personal anxiety.

 

[ranmaru]

That post is about Kary and Lore, primarily. I just have you or Pythag as the third scum. I'm trying to find likely scum, and Kary looks like it. Most importantly because Kary had a big push on you, and dropped it and never brought it up again. He neglected to ask you about Rockin, and he says that it was simple, you posted about maven so he asked about Maven. It doesn't explain why he neglected to mention Rockin. I do agree that Frozen Flame has two slight issues, but I don't find him as much of a priority as Kary right now. Kary is much more apparent. I have had progression on Kary and Lore and this is what it all leads up to. I finally saw Lore's response to (me, gorf, jex) and it was able to develop a read from it. (Alongside reading Gorf's case)

 

[Lore]

Also I'm not replying to Ran yet because it sounds like a lot of it literally hinges on the fact that I disagree with his, Gorf's, and JeXs's response about UP from way before the flip or D2 actions. I shouldn't have to explain how patently ridiculous that is.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

#806 is a good post from Kary, but Kary doesn't follow up after Ryker side steps it.

Also, how do I sidestep that? It was about me, not directed to me.

It contained things like

My problem with Ryker is that he isn't doing anything that makes me town read him.

and

Now, with all of that said, I don't think the absence of this particular behaviour from Ryker counts against him.
To me (up to page 16), it leaves him at a could-go-either-way null, because frankly I can't tell where his head is at or what his stances are.

It looked like it was primarily a way to challenge Marshy and the criticism of me found in it was fair because I hadn't stepped out to really get involved yet.

What should I have done Ran? Does whatever you saw in that post remain true of my current play?