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[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

my gift to you, DGames.

 

[BarDulL]

Got to Episode 20 of Monster. What in the ****.

I do have one qualm with the story though:

[collapse=Monster spoilers]I don't understand why Tenma takes it upon himself to go on a gigantic escapade to kill Johan. I get that it's important to the story because, well, without Tenma wanting to "make amends to the mistake he made," there would be no story (as he's the main character and all.) Technically speaking though, Tenma didn't necessarily make a mistake; he saved Johan's life; there was no way he could know that Johan would turn out to be some insane serial killer. As a Doctor in his position, it would make more logical sense for him to leave Johan to federal agents or Interpol (since Johan has killed people from multiple nations at this point.) The correlation he ends up drawing between his work and Johan (I'm referring to Tenma's seemingly irrational decision to go after Johan on the premise that he kept Johan alive) seems almost arbitrarily contrived; why does he feel the need to make amends when he's a doctor whose duty is to keep people alive in the first place?

Now, I understand that Johan's character is essentially an enigma whose name and past are unknown to federal governments because he's presumed dead. This makes Tenma's story (Johan killed Director/Junkers), alongside the possibility of Johan's character existing and actually being a serial killer, highly unlikely to Lunge's eyes. This COULD stimulate some kind of "mission for society" in Tenma's eyes because the authorities are heeding his story with a grain of salt, thus making Tenma realize that he's the only one who can put a stop to Johan's serial killing because there's no one else. However, this isn't the rationalization Tenma uses; Tenma just gets up and says "I have to resolve this myself; I revived the kid, now I have to kill him." WTF. Let's not forget to take into account his sense of morality and justice either.

All that being said, it would have made more sense to make Nina/Anna Leibert the main character. She pretty much has every reason to want to off Johan and more, and she plays an integral part in the story line (at least as far as I know, I'm only up to episode 20 after all.)

Another thing: Lunge says that Tenma having a split personality explains the whole case, but Lunge comes short with this assertion when Lunge forgets to explain how a split personality allows Tenma to not have gunpowder on his hands/clothes after the death of Junkers (who was shot by Johan). IIRC, there is no mentioning of the possibility of Tenma hiring professional killers, so his whole case ends up falling apart, yet this very simple idea ends up being excluded from the story line. Grumble grumble.[/collapse]

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Basically everyone's thoughts up to this point. :/

 

[Evil Eye]

@bardull:

Spoiler

I think in Tenma's case it's a bit of an illogical move, but a justifiably illogical one when you acknowledge the errs of being human and all. People aren't entirely logical. The question becomes whether there's something in their character to justify it, and I think there is in Dr. Tenma's case. Kenzou always gave off this sheepish, "tell me what I can do to make this better" vibe, even when he was blatantly being wronged by people like Eva and her father. Blaming himself for Johann's actions is a stretch, but not so much when he values personal responsibility (blindly so, moreso than accurately) as he does.

The kicker though, in my opinion, is the death of Junkers. Junkers was another patient of Tenma's. A petty criminal. His care under Dr. Tenma seemed to be giving him a better appreciation for being alive and may have led to a more meaningful existence as a non-criminal citizen. Above all he and Kenzou had become friends. Then Johann murdered him with that icy demeanor he always had, right in front of Tenma's eyes. I think that creates a juxtaposition; Johann is an irredeemable monster that should not have been saved, Junkers was a petty criminal but nonetheless a human that could change. By saving Johann, Kenzou feels that he caused Junkers' death. Junkers was his patient, trusted to his care. "What can I do to fix this?" The answer is: Kill Johann

I think in that lens, Kenzou's quest is justifiable. With that said, I definitely feel it happened a little... quickly? Tenma just kind of drops everything and goes for it and I didn't feel that there was a catalyst for it, even if I absolutely buy Johann's murder of Junkers as a catalyst for his deciding to kill Johann and that Johann's murders are his responsibility. After all, he could have just as easily tried to collect evidence and aid in Johann's capture, right? Dude was headed for a gas chamber/life imprisonment no matter what.

I do agree re: gunpowder residue, though. That's one of the first things I thought of. This story is set in the early 1990s, though, and i'm not sure when that particular advance in forensic science was made.

 

[July]

I just got accepted into a Masters Program in Urban Affairs at the University of San Francisco in the fall If there are any DGamers out that way you should definitely hit me up, I'm going to know a few people but for the most part it's going to be like a whole new world for me

 

[Raziek]

Congratulations, July! :D

Out of curiosity, what exactly does that sort of degree entail?

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

What about Ran?

 

[July]

Congratulations, July! :D

Out of curiosity, what exactly does that sort of degree entail?

Thank you!

It's a two year program, with 3 classes each semester. The first year focuses on urbanism, globalization, and understanding the issues which face urban environments. The second year is focused towards government, nonprofit, and community-based actions and organizations which help address the issues which cities face. What drew me to this program over programs in Public Policy or public Administration which are similar is that in the second year part of your studies is a one year internship with a nonprofit or community-based organization in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is perfect for me because I would love to get involved in nonprofit work after finishing my education.

What about Ran?

Ah, I'm not sure if everyone in DGames knows this, but Ran and I actually broke up quite a while ago, but we are still friends and I really hope that we keep in touch even after I head to the west coast.

 

[Evil Eye]

She's available, Dancer! Make your move!

 

[No Hetero]

And I'll take Ran.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

She's available, Dancer! Make your move!

I don't get it.

 

[Evil Eye]

don't be shy man shyness never got a man no whurr

 

[Evil Eye]

gotta go in fo the kill when the prey is open for hunting season gnamsayn

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Um, but . . . why me?

Also you know Ran's my bud. I can't just take his girl from him, even if they aren't together anymore. Mad tension would be created from that.

 

[Evil Eye]

ran knows you'd be good to her mang he'd be honored, stop with the mask

I had to make the move on your behalf cuz I knew you'd never nut up

 

[#HBC | marshy]

hahah damn i never thought this would spill out on the public forum. cmon dancer just say whats been on your mind man

 

[BarDulL]

@bardull:

Spoiler

I think in Tenma's case it's a bit of an illogical move, but a justifiably illogical one when you acknowledge the errs of being human and all. People aren't entirely logical. The question becomes whether there's something in their character to justify it, and I think there is in Dr. Tenma's case. Kenzou always gave off this sheepish, "tell me what I can do to make this better" vibe, even when he was blatantly being wronged by people like Eva and her father. Blaming himself for Johann's actions is a stretch, but not so much when he values personal responsibility (blindly so, moreso than accurately) as he does.

The kicker though, in my opinion, is the death of Junkers. Junkers was another patient of Tenma's. A petty criminal. His care under Dr. Tenma seemed to be giving him a better appreciation for being alive and may have led to a more meaningful existence as a non-criminal citizen. Above all he and Kenzou had become friends. Then Johann murdered him with that icy demeanor he always had, right in front of Tenma's eyes. I think that creates a juxtaposition; Johann is an irredeemable monster that should not have been saved, Junkers was a petty criminal but nonetheless a human that could change. By saving Johann, Kenzou feels that he caused Junkers' death. Junkers was his patient, trusted to his care. "What can I do to fix this?" The answer is: Kill Johann

I think in that lens, Kenzou's quest is justifiable. With that said, I definitely feel it happened a little... quickly? Tenma just kind of drops everything and goes for it and I didn't feel that there was a catalyst for it, even if I absolutely buy Johann's murder of Junkers as a catalyst for his deciding to kill Johann and that Johann's murders are his responsibility. After all, he could have just as easily tried to collect evidence and aid in Johann's capture, right? Dude was headed for a gas chamber/life imprisonment no matter what.

I do agree re: gunpowder residue, though. That's one of the first things I thought of. This story is set in the early 1990s, though, and i'm not sure when that particular advance in forensic science was made.

Missed this.

Spoiler

I can agree with you in hindsight that Tenma's thought process becomes convoluted whenever something bad happens indirectly as a result of his good natured actions, so I can subsequently accept that his actions are justifiably illogical on that premise. Holy **** do I hate his character as a result though. I mean, a great comparison of his character would be like...if someone harshly blamed themselves for buying candy in a store when they could have instead prevented a murder from happening if they had chosen not to buy candy. Like, wtf? How can they take personal responsibility for a murder when there's no way they could have known? Sure, they would have prevented a murder if they had known they could prevent it, but they didn't know, you know what I mean? I just find it silly and obtuse.

You already know what I'm going to say to your second paragraph. LOL. I don't necessarily disagree with it, but you're operating on the presumption that the author intended for Kenzou to have said juxtaposition; Tenma never expresses this comparison in his rationalization for wanting to kill Johan; he explicitly states that, because he is Johan's creator, it's (somehow) his duty to kill Johan. I'm not saying that your explanation isn't plausible though, only that if it's truly the case, then it wasn't exemplified enough. *Shakes fist at Monster creators*.

The funny thing about the gunpowder residue dealio is that Lunge's assistant explicity states that "Tenma had no gunpowder residue on his clothes or hands, so he can't be the killer," yet 10 episodes later Lunge is like "Tenma gotsta have a split personality, it's the only way!" but ignores the fact that it is impossible for Tenma to have pulled the trigger on Junkers. MFW: -_______-

Edit: I got ninja'd so hard.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

but whaa but . . . whaa?

 

[Evil Eye]

sigh, this obviously isn't working

July, apparently Dancer is a big ol' shyster mcshypants. But you should totally date him. Guy is a total bro and a man of exquisite taste. It's becoming obvious it won't work out unless you make the first move, so launch it

 

[#HBC | marshy]

man this reminds me when i hosted newbie 3 in which mayling and mcfox first met. they are now married. i know july and dancer can be next if they just be forward about this

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Spoiler

Bardull I think you're being overly harsh on Tenma's character. Yes it's true that Tenma had no way of knowing that Johan was going to be a killer, so logically he shouldn't pin it on himself. However I think your really overlooking the fact that Tenma witnessed Johan kill someone right in front of him. When Johan killed Junkers, he TOLD Tenma that he killed the hospital director because that's what Tenma "wanted." Sure, Tenma couldn't have known at the time, but can you imagine that immense guilt one would feel after something like that? What if a serial killer told you that he killed someone because of you disliked them? How would you feel about it? You can SAY that you're be logic about it, but if just a situation were to occur, would you really? Logic can't control your feelings my friend.

Also take into consideration that Tenma resolved to kill Johan after his encounter with Nina. To Tenma, Johan was threatening her life. Johan also killed off her foster family, and Tenma didn't want Nina to take on the responsibility of killing Johan. So here Tenma is, he has seen a serial killer who he brought back to life kill someone before his eyes, tell him that he has killed before because of him, and now has an innocent girl who's throwing her whole life away basically to kill said serial killer. Can you not sympathize with Tenma at all?

I feel that your candy shop analogy is completely unjustified given what I said above. There's a HUGE difference between what happened to Tenma and just some guy who didn't stop a murder he didn't know about. That being the vast involvement he has had with Johan and the people Johan effected.

Also did Lunge say that Tenma had to be Junkers killer, or that he was just the person responsible for the serial killings (honest question)?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

But she's moving to San Fransisco, and I live in Orlando . . .

Long distance relationships just don't work man.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

guess what? mayling and mcfox communicated mainly through the internet before they met up in person. every relationship is different and you never know where youll end up so **** outta hear with that negativity

im NOT letting you throw this opportunity away due to some shyness bro

 

[July]

So...when I say that Ran and I haven't been together for a while now, it's been about 10 months, so I'm actually in a relationship right now. I'm sorry, marshy, but I will say you are an excellent wingman, Swords is lucky to have a friend like you

 

[BarDulL]

Spoiler

Bardull I think you're being overly harsh on Tenma's character. Yes it's true that Tenma had no way of knowing that Johan was going to be a killer, so logically he shouldn't pin it on himself. However I think your really overlooking the fact that Tenma witnessed Johan kill someone right in front of him. When Johan killed Junkers, he TOLD Tenma that he killed the hospital director because that's what Tenma "wanted." Sure, Tenma couldn't have known at the time, but can you imagine that immense guilt one would feel after something like that? What if a serial killer told you that he killed someone because of you disliked them? How would you feel about it? You can SAY that you're be logic about it, but if just a situation were to occur, would you really? Logic can't control your feelings my friend.

Also take into consideration that Tenma resolved to kill Johan after his encounter with Nina. To Tenma, Johan was threatening her life. Johan also killed off her foster family, and Tenma didn't want Nina to take on the responsibility of killing Johan. So here Tenma is, he has seen a serial killer who he brought back to life kill someone before his eyes, tell him that he has killed before because of him, and now has an innocent girl who's throwing her whole life away basically to kill said serial killer. Can you not sympathize with Tenma at all?

I feel that your candy shop analogy is completely unjustified given what I said above. There's a HUGE difference between what happened to Tenma and just some guy who didn't stop a murder he didn't know about. That being the vast involvement he has had with Johan and the people Johan effected.

Also did Lunge say that Tenma had to be Junkers killer, or that he was just the person responsible for the serial killings (honest question)?

Spoiler

I'll concede Tenma has great points, i.e. rejecting Eva like a bawss hog gangsta, and it takes a certain type of man to go after a psychopath serial killer without prior training, but I don't believe I'm being overly harsh of his character at all. That being said, when Tenma said that the director was better off dead, he said it out of anger, not as an order intended to have the director killed. In his shoes, I would not feel any guilt because I would know that the deaths of the director and his associates weren't intentionally my doing. I would of course shake my head at the misfortune of the events that ultimately ended up transpiring, but I could never carry the burden that I was truly responsible for their deaths because I would have never, by my hand, killed them of my own accord. That's where the candy analogy comes in.

It's Tenma's choice to take those things as personally as he did, which is essentially the crux of my issue with him. Even if Johan killed in Tenma's name, what difference does it make? Why can't Tenma simply be impersonal and rationalize it differently? This is where the debacle gets chopped up into opinions with respect to Tenma's character.

The candy analogy isn't unjustified; indirect action results in death, person who did indirect action takes blame for it despite not having the intent to let that person die. It's, with complete honesty, a bit dense.

Lunge explicitly states that all the serial killings are of Tenma's accord, and that a split personality explains all discrepancies in the case.

Welp, July, just make sure he's next up to bat.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i respect your decision july

that said keep your chin up dancer. weve all felt what youre feeling right now no need to be ashamed or embarrassed

"love is never lost. if not reciprocated it will flow back and soften and purify the heart"

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Also you know Ran's my bud. I can't just take his girl from him, even if they aren't together anymore. Mad tension would be created from that.

i wish everyone thought like this including my former best bro!

 

[Xivii]

i wish everyone thought like this including my former best bro!

I'm sure he wish you thought like it too

 

[Xivii]

It's ok marshy I don't know what you guys were talking about anyways.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm sure he wish you thought like it too

wha

 

[#HBC | Joker]

goddamnit Zen stop using other people's avatars

Also, it just got mad weird in here. I can't decide if some **** just came out, or if marshy and ee are just hardcore trolling swords.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i guess the implications werent obvious then zen

at any rate we now have 3 xonavatar users. i aim to have the entire site converted by 2017

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm very tempted to make one...yeah sure after I pass out tonight from lack of sleep I'll do it.

I'll give it a go for a while before Paperman returns.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i want another mafia game to start so i can feel productive

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good stuff, July. A friend of mine told me Frisco's a good place to be at.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Long distance relationships can work, they are just a bit tougher and require more tlc. The lack of physical togetherness is a barrier that is tough for both involved, but it's not as if it can't be overcome.

Just like any relationhip, you put your heart out there and go, distance just means your putting it a bit further.

And congrats on the acceptance, July.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I just got accepted into a Masters Program in Urban Affairs at the University of San Francisco in the fall If there are any DGamers out that way you should definitely hit me up, I'm going to know a few people but for the most part it's going to be like a whole new world for me

congratulations, that sounds great. I hope you have a super time

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I love this ****.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

On long distance relationships: Long distance relationships can work, but they're very hard to actually work. Most don't usually last because there is a lack of physical and mental closeness, mostly because you're separated by a computer, and sometimes things don't come out as genuine as they could be if you knew them face to face.You can't read emotions and you can't read gestures by a sheet of text. It's just not possible, because without some sort of emotion being invoked or deliberately saying "This is how I feel" then you're only up to guess how he/she really feels. There are far too many 'what ifs' in long distance relationships and It's just more natural to want to be physically close. You can't tell me that if you've ever been in a long distance relationship, you didn't yearn to meet him/her in real life, and show your affection. It's really easy to just type out anything they want to hear, but to speak and show it is another thing.

This being said, I just broke off with someone. I'm still trying to get over it but I feel like if I can piece together any sort of reason, then I'll be okay. I don't think Long distance relationships are a bad thing, and they have benefits. More people are willing to open up to strangers on the internet, because you don't interact with that person every day, you don't see that person every day. They don't know anything about you and you can just tell them what's on your mind. Only slowly, do you really get to know a person. It takes a very long time, mostly because people are allowed to hide and only say what they want to say. For me, this person basically became the only person I talked to for a good 4-6 months, and eventually I felt dependent. When it all came down to it though, I learned that I wasn't really anything else to her, and that I was only worth some pity and a cheap laugh. The relationship just felt fake, and I didn't want to lie to myself anymore. I don't know if any of this is really true, but It's how I feel. I'm not going to let this destroy me or ruin my life, so I had to make a choice. I decided it was not worth the trouble to hold on to this person, because they didn't want to hold onto me. I'll find someone else.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

really?

*sigh*

arrivederci