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[#HBC | Ryker]

Question: What plans does Nintendo have for the competitive scene moving forward?
Answer: Sakurai doesn't work with the competitive events directly. he loves the fans and will keep an eye on it

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

http://meleeiton.me/2014/06/10/invitational-impressions/

 

[Raziek]

Neal Ronaghan: Brawl had a 4 person team give grades to the power of characters. New one has 12 person team.
I actually want to cry.

How could you actually be THIS BAD at balancing a game.

 

[giraffelasergun]

Are there any links of the stream of the tournament?

 

[ranmaru]

damn

guess I'm only getting smash 4 to play for funzies and with items on amirite

no mobility

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Neal Ronaghan: Brawl had a 4 person team give grades to the power of characters. New one has 12 person team.
I actually want to cry.

How could you actually be THIS BAD at balancing a game.

You know better. Consideration of a 4 man scenario dramatically limits how bad characters can be and super mitigates abusable **** in 1v1s (like chaingrabs).

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

damn

guess I'm only getting smash 4 to play for funzies and with items on amirite

no mobility

Not necessarily bad. Melee mobility makes it so that slow characters might as well not exist.

 

[ranmaru]

hmm we'll see

I'll still get it tho. I mean the characters seem fun and all.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ledge mechanics make me happy.

 

[Raziek]

You know better. Consideration of a 4 man scenario dramatically limits how bad characters can be and super mitigates abusable **** in 1v1s (like chaingrabs).

Are you sure you read what I said correctly?

4-man balance team.

As in:

Ryker, Raziek, J, and Ranmaru sit in a room and play friendlies to balance Smash 4.

As opposed to actually using a competitive community and gathering valuable feedback.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It's still not aimed at us primarily, Raz.

 

[ranmaru]

...

let's do that this coming apex

 

[Raziek]

It's still not aimed at us primarily, Raz.

I don't rightly give a ****.

I don't care who it's aimed at, that is not even close to a sufficient balance team, regardless of the scenario you're trying to balance.

 

[#HBC | J]

I just need to play the game, pick a character, fall in love, get decent with the character, and then they will be LT until the very end of the competitive spree where they reach Mid tier just ever so slightly.

 

[Raziek]

 

[BSL]

I don't rightly give a ****.

I don't care who it's aimed at, that is not even close to a sufficient balance team, regardless of the scenario you're trying to balance.

64 and melee were sakurai alone

 

[#HBC | Mac]

how come brawl gets a version 2.0 but not melee

 

[Raziek]

how come brawl gets a version 2.0 but not melee

 

[BSL]

i don't know why people keep saying that

 

[Gova]

Because it is

 

[Raziek]

Actually, you know what, let me correct that.

You don't have to move on. You can play Melee all you want.

But Smash has moved on with its life. It's not ever going to go back to the way things were.

Stop trying to get back together with your ex-girlfriend.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

He just came off kind of full of himself. Unbottoning his shirt after a win, milking the crowd before the last match.

I'm being naughty tonight. Sorry Circus.

 

[Gova]

Actually, you know what, let me correct that.

You don't have to move on. You can play Melee all you want.

But Smash has moved on with its life. It's not ever going to go back to the way things were.

Stop trying to get back together with your ex-girlfriend.

But the ex was the one. obv

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

except when it's not. competitiveness is COMPLETELY subjective, i don't think i should have to grind hours of my life getting good at advanced techniques or button combinations in order to be considered decent at a game. the ability to pick up a game and rely on innate skill that will render the best result, imo, is what qualifies skill. but then again, that's just my opinion, because the value of competitiveness completely relies on the community that deems it competitive. turning off items and picking stages that aren't ****ing bizarre craziness will immediately make any smash game that is ever going to be conceived competitive. just cuz things AREN'T the same doesn't make it worse. it makes it different. oh and just because the POLISHED mechanics of brawl aren't the same as the UNPOLISHED mechanics of melee doesn't make the UNPOLISHED mechanics of melee better than the POLISHED mechanics of brawl, and just because the new smash game has more similar mechanics to the POLISHED ones of brawl compared to the UNPOLISHED mechanics of melee don't make it better. it just makes the mechanics have more technical refining. oh have i made it clear that the mechanics in melee are objectively unpolished and they weren't supposed to be there, and it's the community's exploitation of those unpolished mechanics that we call advanced techniques? i feel like people keep forgetting that to conveniently back up their preference of melee's mechanics. and of course, going back to the whole competitiveness is subjective thing, i can't call those who prefer melee wrong.

did i ramble? good cuz that was the point.

 

[Circus]

Comboing in Street Fighter was born as a bug, or an "objectively unpolished mechanic that wasn't supposed to be there." That bug pretty much single-handedly created the fighting game scene as we know it today.

jussayin

 

[#HBC | Mac]

the ability to pick up a game and rely on innate skill that will render the best result, imo, is what qualifies skill..

you can't define skill using the word skill

competitiveness is subjective <-- about the only part of your post I agreed with.

melee advanced techs aren't that crazy, it's not like you have to put in billions of hours of practice to get to a solid level. And then there are much simpler characters to play. plus most (video) games have more complicated mechanics.

because a game is less polished doesn't make it less good.

but w/e i don't wanna rehash the whole melee vs brawl argument.

 

[BarDulL]

i mean, as long as there isn't an overly dominant character like MK, and there aren't any cheesy tactics like planking/flying under the stage over and over, i'm sure it's not going to be a terrible game.

Spoiler

my general take of the situation/jumbled thoughts:

i feel like the more and more realistic (in terms of general physics) a game series becomes, the less interesting or captivating said series seems to be with respect to older generations of said game's hardcore community (halo, mario kart, smash, list goes on for ages).

what i mean by realism is that, for example, sakurai seems to have a growing trend of making each new iteration of smash more realistic than the next by removing things that blatantly disobey atypical laws of physics or obviously weren't within the creator's intentions, i.e. melee's dash dance/wave dash, or brawl's DACUS/glide toss.

i feel like this assertion holds true for other games as well: BXR/BXB/Quad-shot etc. were removed from H2. snaking in MKDS was removed. the general outcry from the hardcore communities for their respective games was pretty much the same.

i mean, each new iteration of a series generally looks graphically more amazing than the next, but by making these games more and more realistic/polished, the creators are also taking away all of the freedom and utility that players would have otherwise had in previous iterations of a series, even if that utility was never meant to be there in the first place.

i just don't know if older generations are in the right or in the wrong to be upset.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

lol good catch on the skill thing, i'm ****ing WIRED on coffee so my fingers are kinda just going.

i ain't saying melee < brawl or brawl < melee, i'm just saying that dogging nintendo for leaning more toward the polished mechanics is silly. tbh i like both games equally but differently, i just feel more of a need to defend brawl because on this forum brawl overwhelmingly gets more unwarranted hate. they're both fantastic games that anybody with a soul can enjoy. one day can be spent geeking out on melee with your friends who like the competitive aspect of it, the next day can be spent getting baked and popping in some brawl n kickin back with your homies, the next day can be spent banging a chick while you and your friend who's video taping are simultaneously playing through subspace together.

...okay that last one isn't feasible at all, subspace was ****. but the point is that change isn't bad. change is just different. i like that brawl isn't the same game as melee, and honestly, this smash doesn't really seem like brawl 2.0 to me. they're just different.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

but the point is that change isn't bad. change is just different.

That's what she said.

(Right before she broke up with me.)

 

[#HBC | J]

Sometimes I feel you need a good hug, Acro.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Sometimes I feel you need a good hug, Acro.

Were you aware that you can hug yourself?

 

[#HBC | J]

Acro you are hitting me in the feels. Staaaahp.

 

[BarDulL]

i mean, as long as there isn't an overly dominant character like MK, and there aren't any cheesy tactics like planking/flying under the stage over and over, i'm sure it's not going to be a terrible game.

Spoiler

my general take of the situation/jumbled thoughts:

i feel like the more and more realistic (in terms of general physics) a game series becomes, the less interesting or captivating said series seems to be with respect to older generations of said game's hardcore community (halo, mario kart, smash, list goes on for ages).

what i mean by realism is that, for example, sakurai seems to have a growing trend of making each new iteration of smash more realistic than the next by removing things that blatantly disobey atypical laws of physics or obviously weren't within the creator's intentions, i.e. melee's dash dance/wave dash, or brawl's DACUS/glide toss.

i feel like this assertion holds true for other games as well: BXR/BXB/Quad-shot etc. were removed from H2. snaking in MKDS was removed. the general outcry from the hardcore communities for their respective games was pretty much the same in this accord.

i mean, each new iteration of series generally looks graphically more amazing than the next, but by making these games more and more realistic/polished, the creators are also taking away all of the freedom and utility that players would have otherwise had in previous iterations of a series, even if that utility was never meant to be there in the first place.

i just don't know if older generations are in the right or in the wrong to be upset. i mean, i guess they can be upset, but i do know the thrill of playing melee at such a fast pace, and no other game compares. :-x

honestly when i look at it that way, the hardcore community is pretty selfish. but i guess we all are to an extent though. i'll add more to this later

someone talk to me about this pls :3 (and whether or not i'm completely off base or if someone else can make a lick of sense of why hardcore communities should at all feel entitled to see each new iteration of a series be as fast paced and complex as the previous iteration)

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Acro you are hitting me in the feels. Staaaahp.

Will you be my first true friend. Please.

 

[#HBC | J]

Stop playing with my heart. ;_;

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Stop playing with my heart. ;_;

I'm sorry. I'll stop.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

someone talk to me about this pls :3 (and whether or not i'm completely off base or if someone else can make a lick of sense of why hardcore communities should at all feel entitled to see each new iteration of a series be as fast paced and complex as the previous iteration)

Their sense of entitlement is unjustified, hence why we call it entitlement. Expecting a Triple A game developer like Nintendo to cater to the competitive meta gaming community is unreasonable. There are incentives for Nintendo to cater to the tournament preference of high pace play, however the creation of their product is completely at their own discretion.

 

[BarDulL]

Their sense of entitlement is unjustified, hence why we call it entitlement. Expecting a Triple A game developer like Nintendo to cater to the competitive meta gaming community is unreasonable. There are incentives for Nintendo to cater to the tournament preference of high pace play, however the creation of their product is completely at their own discretion.

i feel like this is the correct answer even though i'm a die hard melee fan at heart. the hardcore community is technically being pretty selfish to want to impose their values and ideals on the next iteration in a series (in a manner of which they prefer of course). i don't think they're necessarily in the wrong for wanting to protect their game, their community, and its growth though, albeit doing so inadvertently may undermine the capacity for the series to have flourishing communities for each new iteration.

kinda actually makes me dislike hardcore communities similar to the melee community in retrospect. i'm 50/50 on it. i still respect their passion, just not when it's forcibly imposed on others.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

People get salty because companies like Capcom totally listen to the competitive community wrt game balance, and are catered to constantly. Smashers just want that, but they'll probably never get it. Nintendo of America seems to like the competitive scene a lot, but the bigwigs in Japan don't give even half a ****.

Cuz they don't have to, their game will make billions without our help. Chances are, Smash WiiU is still going to be the biggest selling title for the duration of the console's life. Smash3DS will probably sell pretty well, but it's got Pokemon to compete with and will likely not measure up. I bet it still makes boatloads.

I dunno, I played Brawl for awhile, and it was still fun. I have every smash game, and I like them all. I enjoy playing them, and I enjoy watching tournaments for all of them. I'm probably still going to buy this one too, whether it "meets the standards" of the melee community or not. I consider myself a "smasher", and I always will. Even if the game I like to play isn't considered "the right game" by the "cool kids".

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I don't rightly give a ****.

I don't care who it's aimed at, that is not even close to a sufficient balance team, regardless of the scenario you're trying to balance.

I'm pretty sure the over 100 play testers likely also get a say, but not the final say.