Deadpool

[hectohertz]

So let's say we were making a deadpool character by taking the most broken moves and putting them together into one character made of pure ****

so far i've got

aerials:
bair - shiek/zelda
fair - falcon
dair - falco
nair - peach
uair - fox/pika(?)

tilts:
utilt - jiggs/falco/kirby/marth
dtilt - marth
ftilt - shiek
jab - ganon/fox

smash:
dsmash - peach
fsmash - marth/mario(not sure i buy this one)
usmash - fox

specials:
down-b - jiggs/fox/falco
side-b - mario (gets a little more movement than docs cape)
up-b - fox
b - falco

throws:
uthrow- marth/fox
dthrow- shiek
fthrow- jiggs
bthrow- doc

jump - jiggs
grab - marth

base - falcon

discuss

 

[TheGoat]

marth upthrow and jiggs down b

 

[P.C. Jona]

fox's up throw is better
sheik downthrow
m2 or ness or dk back throw idk theyre all strong
jiggs forward throw


falcon knee
falco dair
sheik bair
pikachu up air

jiggs jumps + fox upb
falco shine
doc/mario cape sideb
falcon laser

fox jab

sheik ftilt
marth dtilt
marth uptilt

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

we've done this numerous timesss

 

[hectohertz]

@steezy: where

@pc: i used some of your stuff. if there are any you think i did wrong, explain and i'll probably cave

 

[Quic]

Either sheik or Zelda's bair would be better than Jiggs'

 

[The Good Doctor]

we've done this numerous timesss

You realize this fact never stops anyone on this forum....
ugh...

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

we've done this numerous timesss

this x100000

 

[Pink Reaper]

This is going to sound strange, but trust me on it, Kirby's Utilt. It's faster than Jiggs' by a lot and it would combo for much longer than both Jiggs/Falco's utilts.

Also Mario's Fsmash is better than Marth's. It has huge range and is significantly more safe to spam.

Marth's Grab is the one you want.

Also the base should probably be Falcon. He has the best combination of weight, fall speed and movement speed to allow him to abuse whatever he wants.

 

[FoxLisk]

you guys are trying to just pick each character's best move. you gotta think about combo and edgeguard potential instead. like, you could easily pick moves with free 0-deaths. like, sheik's ftilt, falco's utilt, cfal's dair, marth's fair, sheik's dtilt, and then, with all of those, CF's speed, and the rest, nearly any first hit leads into a rest. that's way better than having 10 really strong moves that are all relatively difficult to land.

 

[ph00tbag]

--Weight of Bowser
Long CC window, hard to KO.
--Size of Pichu
Pichu's eensy weensy hitbox is its only strength.
--Run speed, Air control, fast-fall speed, and SH height of Captain Falcon
Captain Falcon has some of the best mobility in the game, and these all contribute.
--Normal fall speed of Samus
Floatiness plus heavyweight equals a ***** to combo.
--Full Jump height of Falco
Good for continuing combos.
--Traction of Samus/Marth
Not so low that punishing out of shield is hard, but not so high that mobility is hindered.
--Jump count of Kirby/Jigglypuff
Need I say more?
--Float ability like Peach
Not just good for recovery, low aerials with 4 frames of landing lag makes this even better.

bair - Shiek/Fox/Falco
It's like a sex kick behind you.
fair - Marth
One of the best walling moves in the game.
dair - Falco
Fast, powerful spike. Marth's may be better, but we don't want to give him too much love.
nair - Standard sex kick
Sex kicks are always the best neutral airs.
uair - Marth
Juggles galore.

tilts:
utilt - Marth
More juggles. Plus, this move is stupid... STUPID.
dtilt - Marth
Poke, frame trap, gimping move. You get the picture.
ftilt - Sheik
Combo launcher and good poke.
jab - Ganon
Fairly safe, high damage, fast. Good defensive option.
dash - Sheik
Launches early, semi-spikes late, good distance, hard to punish, gives a long range boost grab, puts Sheik very low.

smash:
dsmash - Peach
Not the safest, but still fast, with good damage and knockback to boot.
fsmash - Falco
Fast, powerful, good range, and safe if spaced properly.
usmash - Fox/Pikachu
Between the two, hard to say. Ultimately, it's a very good combo move and KO move.

specials:
down-b - Fox
Fox's shine alone is a high tier character.
side-b - Samus
One of the best edgeguarding moves in the game, plus smash version can KO. Good for gimps and zoning as well.
up-b - Marth
Recovery is already broken. So instead of choosing a broken up b, just go for a solid DP/gimping move.
b - Fox
Spammable, no hindrance if reflected, full screen pressure.

throws:
uthrow- Marth/Fox
Juggle starter.
dthrow- Shiek
Go figure.
fthrow- DK
Moar throw options. Another combo throw, a reasonable KO throw, and a super duper holy crap amazing gimping throw. And on a character with as STUPID GOOD recovery. srsly.
bthrow- Ness
Why not?

grab - Marth
Why you'd pick anyone else's is beyond me.

Rest really isn't that good, folks.

 

[Stev]

you guys are trying to just pick each character's best move. you gotta think about combo and edgeguard potential instead. like, you could easily pick moves with free 0-deaths. like, sheik's ftilt, falco's utilt, cfal's dair, marth's fair, sheik's dtilt, and then, with all of those, CF's speed, and the rest, nearly any first hit leads into a rest. that's way better than having 10 really strong moves that are all relatively difficult to land.

OMG, stomp -> rest would be SSSOOOO broken! Also, what's the point in having fox's upthrow if you have pika's uair?

 

[Iron Dragon]

Pikachu's up smash is the strongest in the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think just taking a bunch of launchers, Falco's laser, Zelda's Fair, Falco's Dair, and Falco's Shine and lumping them on something like Fox or Falcon's body is pretty good.

Probably use Sheik's D-throw, Pikachu's U-throw (CGs FFers from 0-90 or so, which makes it better than Fox's because you get better follows).

I actually think GaW's F/B-throws are the best here because they combo to aerials and regrabs if you DI them in (or don't DI them), which is useful. DIing them away can send very far, which is nice too. You'd literally only be using them at the edge. Even then, between Pika's U-throw and Sheik's D-throw it's pretty superfluous to have other throws at all (since Sheik's D-throw still works at the edge, and you could just U-throw F-smash before you get to the edge vs FFers or D-throw --> tech chase something into **** before the edge). But whatever.

 

[ph00tbag]

Why combo someone when you can gimp or KO them safely?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Comboing someone to death consistently is functionally similar to gimping them or KOing them. But I'm guessing you're not being that general. I'm going to assume you're addressing my choice of GaW's F/B-throw.

It's better than other throws because:

1) If they DI in, you combo to Dair and gimp them.

2) If they don't DI in, you run jump off Fair and KO them.

3) If they DI away, you shoot them with lasers and it's functionally similar to a more traditional B/F-throw like Peach/Puff/whatever. At worst it works the same as those other throws, at best it's a great gimp setup that's better than most normal gimp setups.

The idea is that this fills a niche for low-mid percent gimp setups.

B-throws like Ness's aren't that useful if you have a throw combo (or two) that works on every character, regardless of percent and DI, that auto-kills at a reasonable percent.

 

[ph00tbag]

Comboing someone to death consistently is functionally similar to gimping them or KOing them. But I'm guessing you're not being that general.

I am being general. My whole approach is to minimize room for error. Why go to all the trouble of reading DI and smash DI for every hit if you can just force the opponent off the stage and below the ledge in a one or two hit combo. The efficiency of pressure and ability to lock the opponent into an offstage position are more important than the ability to do damage.

A combo that leaves the opponent offstage is preferable to a combo that puts the opponent in knockdown onstage, especially if the former is not a particularly long combo.

B-throws like Ness's aren't that useful if you have a throw combo (or two) that works on every character, regardless of percent and DI, that auto-kills at a reasonable percent.

Why have a third combo throw, though? You have sheik's dthrow, which combos to KO moves against just about any floaty character at KO percents, and Pikachu's uthrow (which I'll agree is a better choice than Marth's or Fox's), which combos to KO moves against just about every fast-faller at KO percents. And both throws combo or CG against most characters at any percent regardless of DI. If you add G&W's bthrow, you now have a superfluous combo throw, and no guaranteed KO off grab if, for whatever reason, you have not killed your opponent yet at over 100%.

Plus, throws that count as gimping set-ups are covered by DK's fthrow->dthrow, far more than G&W's f/bthrow (especially if you give the character a reasonable vertical recovery option). Just about every function a throw can serve (combo starter, chaingrab, edgeguard set-up, KO, gimp) is covered here. IMO that's more important because if G&W lands a grab at too high a percent, he doesn't really have an option--Ness does.

 

[KirbyKaze]

True death combos are better than death gimps because they work on the whole stage, not just near the edge.

If they lead to an easy edgeguard, that is also preferable to a gimp because it works anywhere.

That is why I picked my character's moves the way I did.

Third combo throw?

Hardly...

If they DI in they get sent off further than if they DIed it away initially because it links to your best KO move(s) and autodeaths them

If they DI it away then it sends them really far, which is what you wanted anyway because then you have lasers and other nonsense to kill them

Ness's b-throw (and KB throws like it) is useless on this sort of character either way because at the percents where it becomes good you have better throws that autocombo to a kill move

 

[ph00tbag]

That movelist I posted is capable of some pretty heavy combos, too. Note the aerials, most of which were selected just as much for combo abilities as for defensive abilities. The combos, though, are generally focused on getting the opponent offstage, and I think we both agree that that is a good thing for a combo to do.

And I still disagree on Ness's bthrow, because you're talking about when that move becomes useful, and I'm talking about when G&W's f/bthrow cease to be useful. I'm talking about covering every base, here.

Edit: Although I suppose a suitable compromise would be to ask why all options out of DK's fthrow have to be DK's follow-up to fthrow. This could work fine.

uthrow: Pikachu
fthrow: DK
->uthrow: Mewtwo
->f/bthrow: G&W
->dthrow: DK's dthrow follow-up to fthrow
bthrow: Ness
dthrow: Sheik

 

[KirbyKaze]

When Ness's B-throw becomes useful, if you have Sheik D-throw and Pikachu's U-throw, those two throws are better choices.

Because Ness's B-throw is useless at low percents and is outclassed by the automatic death combo produced by Sheik/Pikachu's throws (plus the follow) then there's no point to it at the percents you'd be using it...

Whereas GaW's is actually better at some percent... low percent.

Judging from your move selection, I'm not sure you actually understand what makes characters good. This largely stems from your decision to not pick Falco's laser, and some other unusual choices.

 

[ViciousEnd]

I think it also depends on the theme, or objective you are trying to create with this character. You could create a defensive wall that can never be broken, or a rush down combo monster that can combo the entire cast into a variety of KO moves. Trying to create a blend of them decentralizes the idea, and thus results in a much less broken character.

For the most part the grabs would remain largely the same, as would choosing Falco's lasers, but from there the whole moveset would be tailored based on what kind of character you are trying to achieve.

 

[victra♥]

wouldn't the optimal usmash be pikachu's usmash since its faster(?) and stronger than fox's?

also isn't mewtwo's up-b the best? and if we're sticking with side-b for recovery purposes and we're going to have as many jumps as jiggs, why not just stick with pound?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Pikachu's Usmash has a pretty wonky hitbox and is extremely short.

 

[Steelia]

AND

Shield - Yoshi
Definitely Yoshi.

Best shield in the game.

What about dodges? I always thought Mario's side dodge was pretty efficient. Mewtwo's def. got some roll going, but they're probably a tad slow... Sheik's one isn't bad, either.

 

[ph00tbag]

You're still saying that a combo is more useful than a guaranteed KO move, KK. I'm baffled, at this point. I don't know if you're disagreeing with me because you genuinely think I'm wrong, or if you just want to keep arguing about it. The fact that you've completely ignored my compromise makes me think it's the latter.

Let me put it this way: when money is on the line, your opponent is at 200%, and you have just grabbed them, do you want to run the risk of tourney nerves throwing off your combo, or just hit back and net the KO? Maybe it's because I have bad tourney nerves, but I'd rather have no room for error, there. It just seems logical to have that fallback option. And if you have as many grab options as I've shown in my last post, why not have one of them fill that option? If you want a broken character, shouldn't they have as many really good options as possible?

This largely stems from your decision to not pick Falco's laser, and some other unusual choices.

If Falco's laser is PS'd, it can interrupt Falco's approach, and his camping. It's too much of a double edged sword, IMO. Fox's laser doesn't stuff approaches, and he can't use it to cover his approach, but a PS'd laser doesn't stop you from camping. Incidentally, this also gives you more control over where the match takes place.

It's not that I don't think Falco's laser is a good option to have. I just think Fox's laser is better.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yes, but this character isnt Falco, this character doesnt give a **** about powershields.

 

[Stev]

Yes, but this character isnt Falco, this character doesnt give a **** about powershields.

This made me lol

 

[Pi]

just give falcon jiggs downB
upair rest
downair rest
nair rest
fair rest
downthrow rest
upthrow rest
side b rest
uhhh what am i missing here

 

[Pink Reaper]

Bair Rest?
Usmash Rest?
Gentalman Rest?
FALCON KYICK REST?!

 

[MooseEatsBear]

Phanna addressed this a while ago.

Not to herp, but derp:

My attempt at the ultimate character
ultimate smash character
(fun topic) What combination of moves would make the buffest character?
How would YOUR ultimate character be?
Your Ideal Character: Different moves;Different character

 

[DippnDots]

I think it would be funny to slap bowsers up-b onto this character instead of foxs, not for the purpose of recovering but just to make it impossible to shield pressure him.

I mean, with a character like this, he shouldn't ever be recovering.

 

[Steelia]

I think it would be funny to slap Giga Bowser's up-b onto this character instead of foxs

Fixed.
Perfect. That thing is like unstoppable and cannot be spiked except by some stroke of invincibility frame luck, even the slightest touch (when used on the ground) can throw a fighter away, laughs in the face of all attacks and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[Stevo]

this would probably be more interesting if you had to pick a base character and were restricted to 3 move swaps or something

 

[DippnDots]

clearly this deadpool character should have a nana counterpart also

 

[~Twitch~]

if you give him jiggs' jump instead of yoshi's jump then you, sir, are ********.

 

[ph00tbag]

yes, but this character isnt falco, this character doesnt give a **** about powershields.

:​)​​​​​​​

 

[Sraigux]

jab would definitely be ganon.

For dtilt though, I think it should be roy. Pops em straight up for a combo.

Usmash should be pikachu

Uthrow could be M2's for killing while Dthrow could be Sheik's for combos

Bthrow- Zelda

The rest seems right

if you give him jiggs' jump instead of yoshi's jump then you, sir, are ********.

Yes, if you have an up-B that has vertical recovery, than yoshi's jump would be better. Not only for DJCs but you can't be hit out of it. Calling them a ****** is a little too far though

clearly this deadpool character should have a nana counterpart also

THIS

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're still saying that a combo is more useful than a guaranteed KO move, KK. I'm baffled, at this point. I don't know if you're disagreeing with me because you genuinely think I'm wrong, or if you just want to keep arguing about it. The fact that you've completely ignored my compromise makes me think it's the latter.

Let me put it this way: when money is on the line, your opponent is at 200%, and you have just grabbed them, do you want to run the risk of tourney nerves throwing off your combo, or just hit back and net the KO? Maybe it's because I have bad tourney nerves, but I'd rather have no room for error, there. It just seems logical to have that fallback option. And if you have as many grab options as I've shown in my last post, why not have one of them fill that option? If you want a broken character, shouldn't they have as many really good options as possible?

You're right that you have a lot of options available but I think you're picking your moves based on "what's easy" and not based on "what's good", which I don't agree with.

I don't see the point of a KO throw if you already have throws that basically do that (by autocomboing into a KO move with an easy timing) and can fill the low percent game better with more stuff designed to prevent them from ever reaching such a ridiculous percent.

At any rate, it occurs to me that he doesn't need one of GaW's throws because of the nature of CGing. So I guess you're right to choose a KO throw?

If Falco's laser is PS'd, it can interrupt Falco's approach, and his camping. It's too much of a double edged sword, IMO. Fox's laser doesn't stuff approaches, and he can't use it to cover his approach, but a PS'd laser doesn't stop you from camping. Incidentally, this also gives you more control over where the match takes place.

Falco's vulnerabilities to PS and whatever stem mainly from his poor movement, which is rectified by picking a body like Fox or Falcon.

The stun also compliments this body more by outcamping anyone with Fox's laser and takes advantage of the shielding/jumping/platforming/whatever that Falco's laser creates.

Powershielding does not stop laser camping. Both forms of camping are stopped by the same thing, which is "character" lasering in an unsafe range. My qualm with Fox's laser is that because of its lack of stun, it's easier for the opponent to get to that range. Falco's gun controls ground better, and forces responses more effectively because of the stun... it even sometimes punishes people for entering that range by allowing him to link laser --> move.

It's not that I don't think Falco's laser is a good option to have. I just think Fox's laser is better.

You're wrong.

Falco's inhibits characters more than Fox's. The reason Fox's laser sometimes seems better has to do with movement, not a flaw of the actual move.

 

[ph00tbag]

You're right that you have a lot of options available but I think you're picking your moves based on "what's easy" and not based on "what's good", which I don't agree with.

Well, you're still ignoring the compromise I put up. I'd like to think that captures both the easy and the good, so there's no real need to belabor the point further.

You're wrong.

Falco's inhibits characters more than Fox's. The reason Fox's laser sometimes seems better has to do with movement, not a flaw of the actual move.

I'm not really thinking of either move as a comping move. I'm thinking more of it's ability to prevent camping. There are other moves that can be used for creating a wall and camping at safe distances, but few moves are as hard to camp against as Fox's laser.

 

[Kirby1]

Falco's lasers force the opponent to react in specific ways, and even Falco can take advantage of this and it leads into some combos even with his poor horizontal reach. If Fox had that sort of laser he'd be able to abuse it much more because his dash shffl nair covers more ground and more options. All Fox's lasers do is give the opponent a small incentive to approach, but Falco's do that too, and Falco's force characters to shield or jump or something to actually avoid them.

"Well, you're still ignoring the compromise I put up. I'd like to think that captures both the easy and the good, so there's no real need to belabor the point further."

A 0-death is functionally the same no matter what the percentage is at death, but I think that the 0-deaths that work usually come from throws like Sheik's rather than shorter combo strings. I think the misconception here is that you think that KirbyKaze is saying that long combo strings are better than short combo strings (as a concept, not a reality), but what he is actually saying is that the longer combo strings are better because they are automatic 0-deaths whereas the shorter ones aren't guaranteed ones. They could also be more reliable to do. A 0-death from a grab is more effective than one from an utilt to dair on a ledge for example.