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Deadpool

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Well, you're still ignoring the compromise I put up. I'd like to think that captures both the easy and the good, so there's no real need to belabor the point further.


I'm not really thinking of either move as a comping move. I'm thinking more of it's ability to prevent camping. There are other moves that can be used for creating a wall and camping at safe distances, but few moves are as hard to camp against as Fox's laser.
I didn't address it because DK's cargo throws are designed to work in the air, and on the ground, while most normal throws are only designed to work on the ground. I'm not sure how these moves would change in the air, and I think some of them get absolutely stupid (Kirby's U-throw replaces DK's Cargo U-throw).

It also forces me to thoroughly rework everything about what I want on this character because it opens up a crapton of gimping power that I previously didn't consider.

I also think it's a buzz-kill answer quite honestly because it doesn't really answer anything, it just says, "Here, have more moveslots."

Fox's lasers are harder to camp than Falco's lasers because you can move towards Fox while he's doing them and not suffer except for your percent going up (unless he stops and does something else). Falco is different because he actually inhibits movement and therefore gets to set the pace to how he wants to move and act. The exceptions are Peach and Puff but quite honestly I think that one's more attributable to how Falco's jumps are so awkwardly high. He can't shoot at mid height.

this would probably be more interesting if you had to pick a base character and were restricted to 3 move swaps or something

Captain Falcon as base

Peach's Dash Attack
Falco's Laser
Sheik's D-throw

Is what I'd start with I think
 

Stevo

Smash Champion
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150km north of nowhere, Canada
DK as base

Falcon's Nair or Marth's Fair (approach option get)
Roy d-tilt (another option besides grab to start up-air chaining)
.... maybe falco down-b? Falcon forward-b? Fox forward-b?


not an optimized choice of course but would be hella fun.
 

Roneblaster

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KK is perfectly right but how fun would it be to infishine people with falcon?

Falcon with
Peach's Dash Attack
Falco's Lazerz
Fox's Shine


KK said it best "Falcon with peaches dash attack: Henceforth all matchups in falcons favor"
 

ph00tbag

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I also think it's a buzz-kill answer quite honestly because it doesn't really answer anything, it just says, "Here, have more moveslots."
Because that would be broken.

Although putting Kirby's uthrow on DK's cargo uthrow would be hilarious.

Fox's lasers are harder to camp than Falco's lasers because you can move towards Fox while he's doing them and not suffer except for your percent going up (unless he stops and does something else). Falco is different because he actually inhibits movement and therefore gets to set the pace to how he wants to move and act. The exceptions are Peach and Puff but quite honestly I think that one's more attributable to how Falco's jumps are so awkwardly high. He can't shoot at mid height.
So switch your moves around so other moves inhibit approaches better. I don't really think Falco's laser is necessary for the character to be broken. And I certainly think Fox's laser doesn't hurt.
 

Stevo

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change the second swing of Marth's forward-b to Mewtwo's up-b if angled up and falco's forward-b if angled forward.

(not serious, just showing that doing things like changing DK's forward throw's individual directions to whatever throws you want is starting to go a little too far, same with adding a Nana to a fox or something)

but I guess this topic is kinda pointless other than showing off some creativity anyway, so whatever, who cares.

Master hand as the base character obviously.
 

KirbyKaze

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So switch your moves around so other moves inhibit approaches better. I don't really think Falco's laser is necessary for the character to be broken. And I certainly think Fox's laser doesn't hurt.
Falco's laser is almost strictly better.

They're beaten the same way. But one has the benefit of limiting movement and approach options. The fact that he can do this from fullscreen makes this tool impossible to replace... there isn't another move in the game that does that anywhere near effectively as Falco's laser. Because of the stun, he prevents opposing characters from setting up their camping too, so if both characters try to camp, the stun laser always wins.

That it can assist approach is bonus. And something Fox's laser cannot do.

Falco's is better. On pretty much every type of body you can think of.
 

ph00tbag

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The slower rate of fire of Falco's laser makes it strictly worse at preventing camping, though. He doesn't get enough coverage, and a shorter jump wouldn't really help either, because he'd only get two shots off. There are more openings in Falco's laser spam. The thing about Fox's laser is, you have to get hit by them. Even if your movement is hindered by Falco's laser, you don't have to get hit to approach or camp.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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no seriously, why are you still debating like this character actually is falco? ****, it could be falcon with a jump just slightly higher than Falco's allowing for SHDL.

Also Falco's lasers are better than Fox's. Like, its not even a question. Fox's lasers dont do anything to stop counter camping strategies because it doesnt actually force a character forward. Samus isnt interrupted during attempted missles by Fox lasers, you cant stop Peach from pulling turnips, you cant screw up Sheiks needle charge. As an independent move, especially on a non-existent super character that is the idea of this thread, Falco's lasers are strictly better.
 

ph00tbag

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no seriously, why are you still debating like this character actually is falco? ****, it could be falcon with a jump just slightly higher than Falco's allowing for SHDL.

Also Falco's lasers are better than Fox's. Like, its not even a question. Fox's lasers dont do anything to stop counter camping strategies because it doesnt actually force a character forward. Samus isnt interrupted during attempted missles by Fox lasers, you cant stop Peach from pulling turnips, you cant screw up Sheiks needle charge. As an independent move, especially on a non-existent super character that is the idea of this thread, Falco's lasers are strictly better.
But to do any of those things, they have to take damage. While they've been setting up these moves, they've taken hits. Against any character with Falco's laser, instead of focusing on setting up some kind of approach with their own projectile, they've just shielded the hits (or possibly just ducked under the first if this character has a higher short hop), and no one's gotten anywhere. If anything, it just means people have to learn to play a match-up without using their projectile. No matter who was using Falco's laser, their opponent would just rely more on their other spacing options, and at a close enough distance, that includes PSing, which turns the tables. And don't give me that bull**** about "but only Falco has to worry about PSing." The fact is, every character has to change their strategy when one of Falco's lasers is moving towards them. If you PS Falco's laser, then you are manipulating their approach, whosoever is firing it at you.

You guys keep arguing like I'm saying Fox's laser is used for the same **** Falco's is. This is absolutely not true. My point is, Fox's laser is used for psychological pressure that Falco's just doesn't provide, and IMO that psychological pressure is invaluable to a character that has tools that already cover most of the effects at the important ranges that Falco's laser provides, without the negative side effects. Namely, Marth's fair.
 

DippnDots

Feral Youth
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it's impossible to duck under falco's lasers if he does it right, which either forces you to shield or jump. that can be pivotal in falco or anyone with falcos laser as they approach as you've forced them to act a certain way, and can then punish it. For a lot of characters, being above someone isn't good, and since we're making an OP character it's assumed that if you can force them into a certain action you can punish it.

as far as power shielding, its definitely possible to incorporate into your playstyle, but that doesnt mean that you'll be able to shut down the effectiveness of falcos lasers strictly through powershields, or we'd be seeing that happen in high level tourney play.

speaking from experience here, i played hbk one time, my falco vs marth, and he used powershields flawlessly to throw me off and a lot of times would do this sexy powershield wavedash out grab and then proceed to butt hurt me. So yeah, you're right, its definitely possible, but for some reason we don't see people doing this to players who are actually good, so that's where im drawing the line.

edit: and i mean, you don't see high level players completely controlling a match with powershielding lasers, not that you dont seem them doing it.
 

KirbyKaze

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But to do any of those things, they have to take damage. While they've been setting up these moves, they've taken hits. Against any character with Falco's laser, instead of focusing on setting up some kind of approach with their own projectile, they've just shielded the hits (or possibly just ducked under the first if this character has a higher short hop), and no one's gotten anywhere.
Only you have gotten somewhere because you've forced them into shield or whatever (duck not really legit option for 24/26 characters because lasers can hit the vast majority of ducks) and thus have gotten a lot of field control, set the pace of the match, and now have the dominant position.

Fox's lasers, meanwhile, have done 8%.

If anything, it just means people have to learn to play a match-up without using their projectile.
So by pushing B, you've actually killed moveslot(s) of the opponent? And you're saying Fox's 8% here and there is better?

No matter who was using Falco's laser, their opponent would just rely more on their other spacing options, and at a close enough distance, that includes PSing, which turns the tables.
Forcing someone to rely on their other spacing / approach / defense options is very good. It limits them, which in turn makes their game more narrow. I shouldn't have to explain why forcing someone to play such a linear, narrow game is a good thing.

Limiting their abilities like this (since Smash, to paraphrase Mow, "is just a game of what you can and cannot do") is better than what Fox's laser does, which is just light punishment if they're not within a certain range. It doesn't actually stop them from setting up or limit them all that much because very often you can just take the 8% and not care about it - you wind up with a better chance of hitting Fox, or making ways of limiting him, which can be totally worth the stunelss, KBless damage.

Powershield does nothing, unless it was already unsafe for him to laser.

And don't give me that bull**** about "but only Falco has to worry about PSing." The fact is, every character has to change their strategy when one of Falco's lasers is moving towards them. If you PS Falco's laser, then you are manipulating their approach, whosoever is firing it at you.
Falco's laser approach is flawed. There, I said it.

But lasers still do way more for Falco's approach than they do for Fox's. Since lasers do, literally, nothing for Fox's approach. And they enable a ton of stuff for Falco's approach. And Falco's camping is still better for forcing actions, and outcamps every character if he's smart about it.

You guys keep arguing like I'm saying Fox's laser is used for the same **** Falco's is. This is absolutely not true. My point is, Fox's laser is used for psychological pressure that Falco's just doesn't provide, and IMO that psychological pressure is invaluable to a character that has tools that already cover most of the effects at the important ranges that Falco's laser provides, without the negative side effects. Namely, Marth's fair.
Taking 8% for a free setup with no combo potential or any real significance beyond the damage is not a greater psychological pressure than stopping moveslots, forcing people to block, forcing people to jump, sometimes outright beating their approach, eating jumps, limiting where people can jump, etc.

edit: Marth's Fair doesn't fullscreen.
 

Roneblaster

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your bascially saying that falco's lazerz are useless. watch any falco match and count the lazerz.


yeah real useless, now put those same lazerz on a perfect character.
 

ph00tbag

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(duck not really legit option for 24/26 characters because lasers can hit the vast majority of ducks)
You can't tell me I'm the only one arguing like this character with Falco's laser is Falco now. Higher jump means higher laser, especially if you're trying to SHDL.

Only you have gotten somewhere because you've forced them into shield or whatever and thus have gotten a lot of field control, set the pace of the match, and now have the dominant position.

Fox's lasers, meanwhile, have done 8%.

So by pushing B, you've actually killed moveslot(s) of the opponent? And you're saying Fox's 8% here and there is better?

Forcing someone to rely on their other spacing / approach / defense options is very good. It limits them, which in turn makes their game more narrow. I shouldn't have to explain why forcing someone to play such a linear, narrow game is a good thing.

Limiting their abilities like this (since Smash, to paraphrase Mow, "is just a game of what you can and cannot do") is better than what Fox's laser does, which is just light punishment if they're not within a certain range. It doesn't actually stop them from setting up or limit them all that much because very often you can just take the 8% and not care about it - you wind up with a better chance of hitting Fox, or making ways of limiting him, which can be totally worth the stunelss, KBless damage.

Powershield does nothing, unless it was already unsafe for him to laser.
Limiting what someone does at full screen is pointless. It's safer to do nothing at fullscreen anyway if your opponent is just camping you, unless your opponent is trying to approach, but as you say:

Falco's laser approach is flawed. There, I said it.
At least on this point, we agree.

Taking 8% for a free setup with no combo potential or any real significance beyond the damage is not a greater psychological pressure than stopping moveslots, forcing people to block, forcing people to jump, sometimes outright beating their approach, eating jumps, limiting where people can jump, etc.
When I shield a laser from Falco, and he's not approaching, I don't really think, "oh no, he hit my shield." I think "why's he just shooting his laser? It's not doing any damage, and he's not using it to cover his approach." But when Fox shoots his laser, even if I'm blocking it, I'm feeling it, because there are so many more of them.

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy for not being bothered when Falcos just spam lasers without actually using them.

edit: Marth's Fair doesn't fullscreen.
Fox's laser does. Plus, if your character is faster and has better air control than either of those two characters, his fair has better effective range, and is safer. Plus, you've got float canceling, so it's better than a laser at close range in almost every way.
----------------------------------------
Actually, though... I wonder how floating would affect Falco's lasers. That would be an interesting avenue to go down.
 
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