DDD vs. Sonic

[da K.I.D.]

true dat

10inhales

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic has far more methods of dealing damage than DDD who typically relies on his throws to rack up damage.
Sonic's ASC combo done PERFECTLY can deal chunk of 43% damage. Far superior to anything DDD can do to Sonic.
On average a combo from Sonic onto DDD WILL deal from 26~32% damage.

This.
Couldn't have worded better why this match up is neutral.

Sonic racks up damage far too easily on Dedede thanks to his size.

And please cut all the Inhale talk. You'd have to be braindead to roll into a Dedede's Inhale. It's like you're forgetting that all of Sonic's approaches are cancellable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Eh I still would have to say DDD would have a slight advantage over Sonic.

What he does have is effective against Sonic and considering it takes less to KO sonc than DDD, Sonic is being forced to work harder because DDD can slow Sonic's approaches down a bit.

Iam reluctant to say the last bit though since a similar issue cocurs with Olimar and that one turned out to be neutral. @_@ Made me surprised it did.

 

[CO18]

Noone has to be brain dead to run into inhale,I use inhale succesfully vs every character since it ***** shield.

Not sure about your techniques since I don't know Sonic very well but I don't know how situational they are considering I havent played one sonic that inhale didnt work very effectively against.

In addition this matchup could be neutral but It is defintley in Dedede's favor considering he can cg sonic.
Obviously I know by now that you believe he can get out after the 2nd throw which I believe is untrue considering how there is not one Sonic I play which includes the best in Florida that I cant cg at will who all know that the most effective way to escape is up+b and attempt to do so every single time which leads me to belive that the ddd players youre playing are not cging properly.

Even if what you say were to be true because of Move degradation all a Dedede player would basically have to do is Grab Attack once after grabbing sonic before he down throws again which would basically nullify the degradation allowing him to cg the length of the stage.

With that being said Dedede's cg is a better means of racking up damage than anything sonic can do since its a free 30-40% everytime he grabs you which defintley makes the matchup in favor of Dedede.

 

[TwinkleToes]

King Dedede is one of the top 3 fattest (in terms of weight) characters in the game, attempting to kill him vertically should only be tried as a last resort

Vertically he's THE heaviest character. His sideways weight is 4th behind Bowser, DK, and Snake (in that order).

 

[brawlerbrad91]

ugh, i think we've covered just about everything, so does someone want to agree on a matchup number.

I'm sticking w/ 6:4 in DDD's favor for exactly the reasons i said earlier

DDD's Advantages:

-better ground range
-earlier kill moves
-has a projectile
-dies pretty late most of the time in this matchup
-can cg sonic

Sonic's advantages:

-good mostly lagless way of getting around waddles/gordos
-faster aerial movement
-faster aerials in genaral, not including bair i believe
-combos DDD in the air well
-faster tilts


6:4 DDD

so if anyone disagrees w/ the matchup then let me know, i might make it 55:45, but i definitely think it's 6:4

 

[Browny]

I think we could still use some videos... i cant find a single one on youtube of any tourney sonic vs dedede match. i dont have a single DDD main on my wifi FC list so i cant really help here >_>

 

[brawlerbrad91]

yeah, we could use some, i'll look for some also

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'll have a look, too.
Although unless something else is discovered I still firmly believe that this is neutral.

 

[Tenki]

I missed this thread :3

Really? I thought Dedede was of the "puffball" type, along with Kirby and Meta Knight, which means that they're considered lighter in terms of a vertical kill and thus easier to land one. Dedede doesn't seem like it, but I could have sworn I heard somewhere it's a better idea to kill him vertically than horizontally. Is this just a rumor?

Dedede is an exception to this, being about 10-15% easier to kill horizontally than vertically. (relative to adjustments you'd make to kill someone like say, Marth)

How is his ^B punishable?
Considering that Sonic will be at an early percent he most likely wouldn't even need to use his ^B.

Inhale at Sonic's landing point is such an annoyance.

I played a (rather laggy) wifi match (across the country o_O) with ToiletHumor, and he has pretty amazing reading ability. Inhale was quite the annoyance against recovery.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Noone has to be brain dead to run into inhale,I use inhale succesfully vs every character since it ***** shield.

Not sure about your techniques since I don't know Sonic very well but I don't know how situational they are considering I havent played one sonic that inhale didnt work very effectively against.

In addition this matchup could be neutral but It is defintley in Dedede's favor considering he can cg sonic.
Obviously I know by now that you believe he can get out after the 2nd throw which I believe is untrue considering how there is not one Sonic I play which includes the best in Florida that I cant cg at will who all know that the most effective way to escape is up+b and attempt to do so every single time which leads me to belive that the ddd players youre playing are not cging properly.

Even if what you say were to be true because of Move degradation all a Dedede player would basically have to do is Grab Attack once after grabbing sonic before he down throws again which would basically nullify the degradation allowing him to cg the length of the stage.

With that being said Dedede's cg is a better means of racking up damage than anything sonic can do since its a free 30-40% everytime he grabs you which defintley makes the matchup in favor of Dedede.

A good Sonic should very rarely get inhaled by DDD.
yeah it will happen maybe one or twice or four times, but at that point the SOnic user should figure it out and use his many other methods for punishing inhale such as the DAC.


That is really the only means that DDD has for increasing the damage for Sonic by a large amount.
Meanwhile Sonic has much more not including the possible strings that he has.
Sonic is far more adept at racking up damage than DDD since all DDD has to rely on is his CG.

Since Sonic doesn't have to really focus on a large amout of DDD's moves, he knows what moves would be safest.
Bair/ASC for example are good methods of avoiding the CG.
Meanwhile Sonic has his grabs, his ASC, his rounded spincharge, his aerial ability for means of racking up damage.

DDD is not a character for racking up damage anyways, other than his CG many of his moves act like pokes which are effective.


As for the best in Flordia I can care less for bests and what not. Some playstyles are better than others and frankly, Sonic should be assuming a passive aggressive stance towards DDD in the matchup.
That or it is a self proclaimed best or, he is the ebst since every sucks even more than him.
hence no siting best Sonic in said state please.

I rarely get inhaled unless I acted incredibly predicably and usually thats off stage where for some odd reason, I cannot Bair DDD out of the inhale like I would if he were on the ground.

I also don't get grabbed often because I canuse the ASC as a method of attacking DDD without worrying about getting grabbed. Because I would still be too high to be grabbed and would be able to footstool away. If DDD tries to spot dodge he gets hit. If he rolls opposite of me I an cancel o the ground and continue pressuring. If he rolls the way I am goin I can hit him and do a 26~32% combo as well as continue poking at him once he is in the air.

If he continues to shield he will get his shield eaten and I can footstool away.
At which point that leaves him with his U tilt which is threatening in such a position though a footstool does get him away from the U tilt in time.


I am more towards it being 55:45.

I have several DDD mains on my FC and several of which I have played in person.

 

[TwinkleToes]

ugh, i think we've covered just about everything, so does someone want to agree on a matchup number.

I'm sticking w/ 6:4 in DDD's favor for exactly the reasons i said earlier

DDD's Advantages:

-better ground range
-earlier kill moves
-has a projectile
-dies pretty late most of the time in this matchup
-can cg sonic

Sonic's advantages:

-good mostly lagless way of getting around waddles/gordos
-faster aerial movement
-faster aerials in genaral, not including bair i believe
-combos DDD in the air well
-faster tilts


6:4 DDD

so if anyone disagrees w/ the matchup then let me know, i might make it 55:45, but i definitely think it's 6:4

Sonic's bair definitely has more start-up lag, but I think its landing lag is less (although the difference is fairly negligible).

I think you should also mention that DDD is also rather easy to tech chase. For some Sonics such as myself and InterimOfZeal tech chasing is a fairly substantial part of the damage building so it would probably be good to note that Sonic is going to try to pseudo-chain throw you out of a down throw a lot and mix that up with all kinds of random crap.

6-4 is fine...

 

[Tyser]

A good Sonic player = A psychic according to ShadowLink. Dedede poops Sonic, that's all.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Poops? What does that even mean? @___@

 

[ShadowLink84]

It means that a good DDD ***** a good Sonic everytime.

Since a good Sonic ill always get caught by inhale.
Always run into the mallet.
Always get walled.
Always get CG'ed.
Always get KO'ed early.
Oh and my favorite, always have issues killing a DDD@150% or higher.

Wait what?

Tyser if you cannot comprehend my posts do me a favor and ceasemaking foolish posts that fail to summarize what has been said.

tl;dr lurk more post less.

 

[ruiisu]

...

I also think its 6:4 in favor of D3 but after playing one particularly strong Sonic... I have to definitely say that this match-up goes to the better player or the one with a better read on his opponent. D3 has nice pokes and good keep away but Sonic has many ways to get around.

I think it all comes down to wether the D3 player can make the switch between Offense and Defense proportion-wise to the distance of Sonic to the player. Likewise, I think Sonic needs to be able to play a really good mix-up and avoid being read.

I have been able to catch spin dashes with grabs and do uptilts on poor hedgehogs that gave away their intention of jumping the spin dash. So lets not completely put this one to rest I would love to learn more about beating Sonic due to that one guy at the last tourney that won it all with him.

Edit: PS @ 150%? D3 could die twice after a well placed hit from Sonic...

 

[Greenstreet]

Wow. Heated discussion. I would say it's nuetral and comes down to placement, but if a Sonic is purely offensive and ignores placement, it is slightly Dedede's....obviously.
But in my experience: nuetral.

 

[BlackWaive]

I've played against the Sonic Champion at GameFAQs on numerous occasions, and I have yet to win an entire set.

If I stay grounded, I get punished by spindashes, sometimes cancelled into spinshots. Assuming that the spindash is fully charged, it is very difficult to grab. That attack is fast on its own, but when you factor in about 1/4 second of button lag, it feels impossible to grab consistently. The timing needs to be perfect, or else by the time you grab, Sonic will be at your head.

Inhale gets countered by a quick F-air, or an early cancel into an overhead spring drop and/or spinshot.

I feel that Sonic's goal is to get Dedede airborne. Dedede does have the B-air, which is very useful for edgeguarding Sonic, but Sonic is too fast for Dedede to target. Because of his powerful Spring Jump, a grounded Sonic can choose where and when to approach the aerial Dedede. I don't know much about the specifics of Sonic's attacks, but I do know that they come out very fast and can combo Dedede for alot of damage.

So I think that Shadowlink84's interpretation of this matchup is correct. Although admittedly, I haven't fought the Sonic Champion that many times, so I may just be inexperienced in the matchup.

-BlackWaive, current GameFAQs Dedede Champion

 

[JRobPaq]

I dont own a Wii, I own a GCN and N64 and have both SSB. BUT! I have played Brawl enough to know that
DDD does have a 6:4 advantage over Sonic because DDD is;
1. Cooler
2. More Powerful
and
3. Better Moves

 

[Tyser]

DDD poops Sonic. That is all.

 

[JRobPaq]

Agreed. Wait what! o_O

 

[R!S3]

I play against one of the best sonic players in Florida on a regular basis and I have noticed distinct advantages each character has against each other.

Sonic advantages:

Fast
Aerial superiority
Excellent spacing moves
Very good recovery
ASC


DDD advantages:

Chain grab
Excellent recovery
Heavy
Excellent WOP
Many killing moves

While CO18 is correct about using inhale...(It does **** sonic's approach 9 times out of 10)

ShadowLink84 is also correct, a good sonic player will not get inhaled more then 4 times in a match.

I think the main problem most DDD players don't realize is:

Sonic CAN be a VERY dangerous character. I think most sonic players are just garbage. Very few people are good with him. I think the problem is that so few good sonic players exist (R4ZE...Tenki...Lucky...RockCroc...Boxob...) that outsiders think they are all terrible.

In my experience:

A good sonic has an advantage over a mediocre DDD

A mediocre sonic is at a disadvantage to a mediocre DDD

 

[Samus-T]

sonic cant get out of the chaingrab. DDD's inhale and ground game should beat sonic in the match up

 

[R4ZE]

nah, its just that there is apperently under 10 D3's in the world that know how to cg properly.



i say we settle this democraticly.


all the sonics elect the best sonic player, D3 elect their best, and then we put the best d3 vs the best sonic, and let THEM tell us how it is.


I would say the matchup is probly 5/5 even flat zero


of course any varience in skill and i would say the match could go heavily either way. which would explain the amount of debate over the topic eh?

 

[BlackWaive]

nah, its just that there is apperently under 10 D3's in the world that know how to cg properly.

I can chaingrab properly over WiFi, with grab jabs and all - although I let my opponent escape in the first few grabs, so that I can determine how many grab jabs they'll let me have.

all the sonics elect the best sonic player, D3 elect their best, and then we put the best d3 vs the best sonic, and let THEM tell us how it is.

In that case, I would elect HolyNightmare. Or Kai973.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Don't get eaten by inhale. Seriously, it's not hard. Every single one of Sonic's approaches is cancellable. If I get inhaled more than twice in one match I will jab forks into my eyes.
I don't know, I see this match-up as neutral.
Not that a good Dedede player would do so, but throwing out the laggier moves he has will lead to punishment. Dedede is a big combo bag, especially if you get him into the air via an ASC, because he lacks any real GTFO moves up there. His recovery is also interceptable. Sonic has the 6th fastest horizontal airspeed, coupled with a very good recovery, so this is always an option. He outshines Dedede in the air too, though bair is a pain.
What hits me about Dedede too is that he's not a character used to rack up damage. His chaingrab accomplishes that, all his other attacks act like long range pokes. If the Sonic player doesn't get grabbed, by juggling the Dedede, what does he do then? What effective ways has he got of racking up damage? I THINK the 2nd hit of uair outranges Dedede's dair, but don't hold me to that.

Dedede can chaingrab Sonic. It always depresses me trying to get out of it as I start to leave grounded springs on the stage while being snatched off the top of them >.> He also outranges Sonic on the ground, and kills faster. Most of his kill moves are predictable or easy to see coming (F/dsmash spring to mind). Utilt is his best kill move against Sonic, most definately.

Tbh I don't see the point in arguing. Most Dedede mains I know of seem to think Sonic can't kill at under 150% because the Sonic's they play ****ing suck. I know there are only like a max of like 10 good Sonic players in the world
but surely it's not beyond them to identify an incredibly bad one.

I dunno, I usually beat Dedede's. But then I only get to play mediocre ones at best. I'd like to play a good one sometime.

Edit : I see this is an old-ish thread recently bumped...meh

 

[R!S3]

nah, its just that there is apperently under 10 D3's in the world that know how to cg properly.

I can chaingrab properly over WiFi, with grab jabs and all - although I let my opponent escape in the first few grabs, so that I can determine how many grab jabs they'll let me have.

all the sonics elect the best sonic player, D3 elect their best, and then we put the best d3 vs the best sonic, and let THEM tell us how it is.

In that case, I would elect HolyNightmare. Or Kai973.

lol...Christ this is a good post

 

[BlackWaive]

lol...Christ this is a good post

I don't know if you're being sarcastic...

I misread the quoted post - I thought Sonic players were supposed to elect the best Dedede, and vice versa. (HolyNightmare and Kai973 are amazing Sonic users.)

Best Dedede? No idea.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Hold it!

Why the heck does this thread exist?

DDD beats Sonic, end of story. This thread was only made by some Sonic user/fanboy. Sonic has nothing going for him with his incredibly weak damage and knockback from his F-Smash. Dedede is also one of the heaviest characters in the game!

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Im the best DDD, duh.

 

[da K.I.D.]

#1 i dont care to argue after this
2. the match is neutral. each character can beat the other handily if the player is better.
3. the thread is starting to get flooded with D3 fan boys
4. any characters f smash can kill if is charged and placed correctly being heavy doesnt have much to do with it
5. why doesnt somebody just PM M2K and ask him or somebody else with frame data to test the CG vs spring issue
6. people like KGA are the reason i still play sonic. just to shut people like you up

 

[cutter]

If DDD executes the CG perfectly, Sonic cannot escape. If Marth can't break out of it with his Up B, neither can Sonic.

 

[JST]

I looked around, and I found a vid of DDD vs. Sonic (Stole it off of Fogo's thread. ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiIJXB9ZgUg

The DDD is a decent player. I'm not so sure about the Sonic. But hey, it's something.

Also, as you can see in the vid, Sonic doesn't have a TERRIBLY hard time killing DDD (Around 3:12).

I don't have too much insight to put into this thread, but I personally think that it's even. Then again, I haven't played any impressive Sonics (Only Sonics I've played were my friends'). However, some need to take into account that a good DDD will be REALLY good at spacing and punishing risky approaches. Especially in the air. From what I've read, people think that DDD's only spacing moves are Ftilt, Waddle Dees and Bair, but DDD is capable of more than that.

On the other hand, DDD is very easy to get combo'd. Sonic won't have much trouble racking up damage once he gets a hit in, but he still has to be very careful. DDD's aerials aren't exactly gtfo moves (Save Nair which has terrible range), they can easily catch Sonic out of what he's doing (Dair) if Sonic spaces himself poorly. Like anybody else vs DDD, Sonic has to watch his spacing and movement above all things. Thankfully, Sonic is really good at that.

 

[TKD]

I say it's either 60/40 D3's favor or 50/50. I think it's 60/40, I don't have major trouble against IceDX, the best Sonic player I've played.

You have to get used to Sonic though. Play a couple before you're not ready. At first, Sonic used to beat my D3 every time I think, which was really surprising.

 

[IceDX]

I say it's either 60/40 D3's favor or 50/50. I think it's 60/40, I don't have major trouble against IceDX, the best Sonic player I've played.

You have to get used to Sonic though. Play a couple before you're not ready. At first, Sonic used to beat my D3 every time I think, which was really surprising.

As TKD says the match is 50/50

 

[ROOOOY!]

Why did this thread need bumping Ice you NUB

Spoiler

Love you really

Have people got out of the notion that Sonic cannot even lay a finger on Dedede because of Inhale, because there is obviously no way to avoid it?
I hope so >_<

 

[IceDX]

Why did this thread need bumping Ice you NUB

Spoiler

Love you really

Have people got out of the notion that Sonic cannot even lay a finger on Dedede because of Inhale, because there is obviously no way to avoid it?
I hope so >_<

There is i figured out a way to SD into it, you have to SD then jump with proper timing and hit him just above his head....

 

[ROOOOY!]

I was being sarcastic lol. OF course you can avoid it. All Sonic's approaches are cancellable, it's not like I'm going to be absentmindedly rolling into mouths any time soon.
Just SDJ behind him for a bair?
Or you could just spinyrape him with a running upsmash, that hits him out of it too, if you hit him while you're at the apex of your mini jump.
Invincibillity frames are sexyhax.