Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[RandomAce]

I blame people complaining about Oshawott going from a bipedal otter to a quadrupedal sea lion for this. But hey, at least in all its stages, it's a melee weapon-using sea mammal.

Samurott was another quesionable final evo at first. You got two otters, and then the last one looks completely different than Dewott being a quadrupal sea lion.

Samurott is still awesome though.

 

[Delzethin]

Careful with the theme talk, guys. Far as we know, the only time a starter trio has ever been deliberately designed around a specific theme was when the Kalos starters ran with the classic fighter-mage-rogue trio. The Sinnoh starters may have been themed after various stories and legends, the Unova starters may have been themed after nobility/authority positions in various cultures, and the Alola starters may have been themed after types of performances, but we have no confirmation of such. Far as I know, at least.

I realize we as human beings have a tendency to seek out patterns, but it can lead to us forcing them where they may not necessarily exist. Remember after the Alola starters' initial reveal, how Popplio's clown motif had a lot of people convinced the entire trio's evolved forms would have a circus theme? We shouldn't jump to such conclusions about the Galar starters either. Let's play this by ear and see how it pans out without trying to squeeze them into a pattern that need not necessarily exist.

 

[Luigifan18]

Careful with the theme talk, guys. Far as we know, the only time a starter trio has ever been deliberately designed around a specific theme was when the Kalos starters ran with the classic fighter-mage-rogue trio. The Sinnoh starters may have been themed after various stories and legends, the Unova starters may have been themed after nobility/authority positions in various cultures, and the Alola starters may have been themed after types of performances, but we have no confirmation of such. Far as I know, at least.

I realize we as human beings have a tendency to seek out patterns, but it can lead to us forcing them where they may not necessarily exist. Remember after the Alola starters' initial reveal, how Popplio's clown motif had a lot of people convinced the entire trio's evolved forms would have a circus theme? We shouldn't jump to such conclusions about the Galar starters either. Let's play this by ear and see how it pans out without trying to squeeze them into a pattern that need not necessarily exist.

I vaguely recall there being an official statement on the Unova starters being based on royalty, but I can't recall the exact source.

 

[Guynamednelson]

how Popplio's clown motif had a lot of people convinced the entire trio's evolved forms would have a circus theme

I never thought that, but I wish Popplio's evolutions didn't change its motif.

 

[Luigifan18]

I never thought that, but I wish Popplio's evolutions didn't change its motif.

Come to think of it, the Rowlet line was the only Alolan starter line to maintain a largely consistent motif; the archer motif is made explicit with Decidueye, but Rowlet is also noted to attack by firing leaves with remarkable accuracy (though there might be an argument that Rowlet's leaves are more analogous to throwing knives than arrows; Rowlet's leaf-firing motion doesn't bear a particularly strong resemblance to firing a bow IIRC). Dartrix is noted to be able to propel sharp leaves from its wings with incredible precision, but there isn't much said about exactly how it does this, and Bulbapedia's wording implies that its wings are like a firearm somehow... but this makes little sense, because it would be incredibly silly to present transitioning from a gun to a bow as an upgrade as opposed to the other way around. Also, nothing about Dartrix's anatomy suggests that its wings could act like a firearm, so it's more logical to infer that it’s using some hybrid of Rowlet's and Decidueye's methods (perhaps its wings act like an atlatl, though those were designed to facilitate the throwing of spears rather than knives or arrows).

Behold Rowlet, the...err…master of flight? pic.twitter.com/m9jwUmSPhI

— Pokémon (@Pokemon) November 30, 2016

In contrast, as previously mentioned, Popplio abruptly transitions from "circus performer" to "singer" upon evolving to Brionne (the transition from Brionne's J-Pop to Primarina's opera is far less abrupt, since both of those at least involve singing). Popplio isn't noted to make any particularly special use of its voice; the closest the Pokédex gets to that is mentioning its penchant for blowing bubbles. As for Litten and Torracat, very little about them suggests a wrestling motif. There is some slight foreshadowing in Torracat's anatomy, as its front legs are thicker and more muscular than its hind legs, suggesting a focus on upper-body strength; however, without hindsight, this doesn't point to it becoming bipedal and becoming a wrestler upon evolving into Incineroar.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Popplio jumps from performer, to performer, to performer. It's far from a stretch in hindsight.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Popplio jumps from performer, to performer, to performer. It's far from a stretch in hindsight.

Well, yes. I just wish the type of performer wasn't changed. Also, people have been doing this thing where you fill out the remaining 15 slots. Feel free to post your own, I'm just doing it here so I don't have to be scolded for not praising Cat Jesus.

 

[RandomAce]

Popplio jumps from performer, to performer, to performer. It's far from a stretch in hindsight.

I was about to say the same thing. It wasn’t that ’d when I first saw that popplio became primerina. They’re both performers after all, so it still felt natural and not as much of a surprise.

Well, yes. I just wish the type of performer wasn't changed. Also, people have been doing this thing where you fill out the remaining 15 slots. Feel free to post your own, I'm just doing it here so I don't have to be scolded for not praising Cat Jesus.
View attachment 200023

Tbh, I have been thinking about 15 newcomers for some time. I might as well put down a list:

Spoiler: “15 Slot” List

1. Lycanroc
2. Elma
3. Rex
4. Bandanna Dee
5. Byleth/Edelgard
6. Isaac
7. Spring Man
8. Chorus Kids/Andy
9. Gen 8 Pokémon
10. Joker
11. Erdrick
12. Lloyd
13. Sora
14. Banjo
15. Geno

It’s a bit of a prediction of how where I can see DLC going. Some are less likely than others, but hey, we’ve seen crazy things and some of these characters represent that.

Not sure if Echoes would be considered a part of the 15 or not, but I also see some echoes happening.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This is official artwork for the upcoming Japan championship. Something about someone in the background makes me think we're screwed.

 

[Delzethin]

So, some interesting Persona-related news dropped earlier that is tangentially related to topic we've discussed before:

A mysterious new character in the latest Persona 5: The Royal trailer (which still isn't listed for Switch) has some interesting connections to a Smash Bros. datamine and may give us a smaller DLC release window: https://t.co/MONpdhJ9W7 pic.twitter.com/qWdUlenzfo

— Nintendo Wire (@NinWire) March 23, 2019

We finally have a title for the definitive edition, and our first look at a new girl who might have been alluded to in the pieces of Joker's data that were uncovered by dataminers. While her lines in the trailer proper imply she's not a female version of Joker and rather something else instead, it's...curious.

But the big thing of note here is that Atlus is planning on revealing more details on April 24th. If this new girl is involved in Joker's moveset, then I doubt Atlus would want our first detailed look at her to be on someone else's terms. After all, if higher ups at Atlus knew Joker's addition to Smash was coming sooner, wouldn't they take measures to ensure the fans knew more about her before then and get something out earlier in the month? Meaning there's a plausible chance that the potential Smash Direct in April doesn't happen until after the 24th.

And if it's happening later than expected...that'd potentially raise the odds of us getting multiple reveals there, wouldn't you think?

This is official artwork for the upcoming Japan championship. Something about someone in the background makes me think we're screwed.

Easy now; a poster for a VGC event is hardly indication of anything, especially when there're representatives from every generation present and 'mons playable in Smash who aren't present (Lucario and Greninja, notably). These promotional posters always feature different characters for different reasons--we actually have seen at least one Lycanroc show up in these before, if I remember right. Perhaps they wanted at least one fully evolved starter of each type on the ground there. Perhaps they wanted bulky-looking starters in particular for artistic effect. Maybe it was even because Incineroar is common in the VGC ruleset in particular. I mean, the only 'mons here who aren't starters or legendaries are Pikachu and Eevee, which seems to be an artistic choice. There is no evidence for this meaning anything regarding Smash going forward.

I know, it's easy to jump to worst case scenarios. We're all pretty high-strung in the Smash community nowadays, for various reasons.

Besides, why would they include anything in a poster now that'd spoil anything set to be revealed afterward? Who's to say the artist would even have known if such a thing was going to happen?

 

[RandomAce]

So, some interesting Persona-related news dropped earlier that is tangentially related to topic we've discussed before:

A mysterious new character in the latest Persona 5: The Royal trailer (which still isn't listed for Switch) has some interesting connections to a Smash Bros. datamine and may give us a smaller DLC release window: https://t.co/MONpdhJ9W7 pic.twitter.com/qWdUlenzfo

— Nintendo Wire (@NinWire) March 23, 2019

We finally have a title for the definitive edition, and our first look at a new girl who might have been alluded to in the pieces of Joker's data that were uncovered by dataminers. While her lines in the trailer proper imply she's not a female version of Joker and rather something else instead, it's...curious.

But the big thing of note here is that Atlus is planning on revealing more details on April 24th. If this new girl is involved in Joker's moveset, then I doubt Atlus would want our first detailed look at her to be on someone else's terms. After all, if higher ups at Atlus knew Joker's addition to Smash was coming sooner, wouldn't they take measures to ensure the fans knew more about her before then and get something out earlier in the month? Meaning there's a plausible chance that the potential Smash Direct in April doesn't happen until after the 24th.

And if it's happening later than expected...that'd potentially raise the odds of us getting multiple reveals there, wouldn't you think?

If I’m not aware, apparently Mystic stared that Joker was apparently going to be released on the 24th. I’m not sure if that’s his prediction or genuine info, but regardless this new character seems to fit with that “Jane” datamine, and seeing how we’ll get to know more about her on the 23rd (which is 24 in Japan time), it’s looking more likely that we’re going to get new info, much later than expected.

Although, is it possible that they could show Joker first, and keep the alt as a secret until later? Nintendo doesn’t show all the alternates of characters until either later or until release. Maybe on the 24th after they showcase P5R they could make a surprise announcement that “she’s also in Smash as an alternate for Joker!”, and then Joker gets released around that same time.

But this is if she is something akin to being a Female counterpart to Joker. Although the data may seem like such would happen, it’s possible that she is a completely different character that isn’t like joker at all based on some findings people found, and thus, wouldn’t even be apart of Joker and wouldn’t necessitate a need to wait until SegaFes.

Personally, I hope Joker gets shown before late April. It’s been a long wait already. But I guess with this long wait, means that more progress are on the other fighters that could also be revealed soon.

Easy now; a poster for a VGC event is hardly indication of anything, especially when there're representatives from every generation present and 'mons playable in Smash who aren't present (Lucario and Greninja, notably). These promotional posters always feature different characters for different reasons--we actually have seen at least one Lycanroc show up in these before, if I remember right. Perhaps they wanted at least one fully evolved starter of each type on the ground there. Perhaps they wanted bulky-looking starters in particular for artistic effect. Maybe it was even because Incineroar is common in the VGC ruleset in particular. I mean, the only 'mons here who aren't starters or legendaries are Pikachu and Eevee, which seems to be an artistic choice. There is no evidence for this meaning anything regarding Smash going forward.

I know, it's easy to jump to worst case scenarios. We're all pretty high-strung in the Smash community nowadays, for various reasons.

Besides, why would they include anything in a poster now that'd spoil anything set to be revealed afterward? Who's to say the artist would even have known if such a thing was going to happen?

I think it’s obvious Incineroar would be used in something like this, since Incineroar is one of the most used Pokémon right now in VGC, and it recently got in Smash. They would’ve done something to cash in on that.

Does it affect Smash going further? Not at all. There’s more to it than just a poster. Even if Lycanroc was on it, it wouldn’t mean much other than “I guess this is one more thing that shows Game Freak cares about it”.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Keep in mind that promo art for official championships is not focused on what's common on competitive teams. It just made me worried that they're gonna crank up the Incineroar promotion to help justify it being the Gen 7 newcomer over others.

 

[Super10ZX]

So, some interesting Persona-related news dropped earlier that is tangentially related to topic we've discussed before:

A mysterious new character in the latest Persona 5: The Royal trailer (which still isn't listed for Switch) has some interesting connections to a Smash Bros. datamine and may give us a smaller DLC release window: https://t.co/MONpdhJ9W7 pic.twitter.com/qWdUlenzfo

— Nintendo Wire (@NinWire) March 23, 2019

We finally have a title for the definitive edition, and our first look at a new girl who might have been alluded to in the pieces of Joker's data that were uncovered by dataminers. While her lines in the trailer proper imply she's not a female version of Joker and rather something else instead, it's...curious.

But the big thing of note here is that Atlus is planning on revealing more details on April 24th. If this new girl is involved in Joker's moveset, then I doubt Atlus would want our first detailed look at her to be on someone else's terms. After all, if higher ups at Atlus knew Joker's addition to Smash was coming sooner, wouldn't they take measures to ensure the fans knew more about her before then and get something out earlier in the month? Meaning there's a plausible chance that the potential Smash Direct in April doesn't happen until after the 24th.

And if it's happening later than expected...that'd potentially raise the odds of us getting multiple reveals there, wouldn't you think?

That’s interesting. I definitely feel a Smash Direct is coming, but I was expecting it to probably be in early April. Maybe the Direct happens on April 25 (the day after this Persona announcement). We will definitely get the 2nd DLC character in an April Direct, and multiple reveals could happen, but I’m not expecting it.

My idea was Joker would be shown and given a release, then the second character (likely Erdrick) would be revealed with just a time frame of release. If a third character were to happen, someone like Bandana Waddle Dee makes the most sense, as he makes a lot of sense to get in, but isn’t incredibly exciting for an E3 reveal compared to someone like Banjo-Kazooie. If that happens, and they reveal 1 character at E3, then it would feel a little off to have only 1 character remaining after E3.

Anyway, I’ve been meaning to do my idea for the 14 character slots, but never got around to doing it until now. I’m going to say what I think would happen (if this happens at all) vs what I would want to happen:

What I think would happen:
1. Erdrick
2. Banjo-Kazooie
3. Bandana Waddle Dee
4. Monster Hunter
5. Geno
6. Spring Man
7. Rex and Pyra/Mythra
8. Isaac
9. Waluigi
10. Gen 8 Pokémon
11. Chorus Men
12. Shovel Knight
13. Shantae
14. Rayman

What I would want to happen:
1. Fawful
2. Starfy
3. Shovel Knight
4. Susie
5. Waluigi
6. Midna
7. Dillion
8. Ninjara (or just Spring Man with a Ninjara alt)
9. Decidueye
10. Bandana Waddle Dee
11. Ashley
12. Banjo-Kazooie
13. Lycanroc
14. Geno

 

[LukeRNG]

Ok, so we're doing this now. I didn't think much of the 15 characters, but speculation is fun anyways so here goes:

Characters i think will/could get in (in no particular order aside from the last one), asuming the dlc lasts up to at least late 2020 or early 2021:

Spoiler: Likely Characters

1-. Erdrick.
2-. Crash Bandicoot.
3-. Banjo Kazooie, Steve or Master Chief (i really don't know who is more likely).
4-. A Namco rep (Heihachi, Lloyd or Agumon).
5-. A second gen 7 rep (Lycanroc or someone else i can't think about).
6-. Monster Hunter or Amaterasu.
7-. A Zelda Rep (Impa or a champion from BotW).
8-. Bandana Waddle Dee.
9-. Xenoblade Character (Elma or Rex).
10-. Fire Emblem Three Houses Rep.
11-. NES or SNES character.
12-. A fighter ballot pick.
13-. A new nintendo IP.
14-. Pokemon from gen 8.

And now the characters i want in, even if some are very unlikely (and others will never happen):

Spoiler: Characters i want.

1-. Grovyle from Mystery dungeon or Sceptile.
2-. Samurott.
3-. A Fossil Fighters rep.
4-. Silvally.
5-. Lycanroc (the only one i think has a big chance).
6-. Geno.
7-. Dillon.
8-. Decidueye.
9-. Heracross.
10-. Revali.
11-. Sora.
12-. Spyro.
13-. Agumon.
14-. Pokemon from gen 8.

Knowing that 15 dlc characters are most likely not going to happen, i can still hope.

Speaking of the update on april, one mode i want and think is likely is Boss rush. I know you can technically fight all the bosses at the end of world of light in the true ending, but i want something that doesn't include the platforming, has the dificulty meter from classic mode, and i can fight the hands as well. And if they decide to add more bosses with the upcoming updates, they can be added to boss rush as well. I know it's unlikely, but there's some bosses that i feel should've been in the game to begin with.

 

[Cosmic77]

Keep in mind that promo art for official championships is not focused on what's common on competitive teams. It just made me worried that they're gonna crank up the Incineroar promotion to help justify it being the Gen 7 newcomer over others.

I really wouldn't consider this to be major promotion. Unless Incineroar is somehow the main focus or makes back-to-back appearances similar to this, it's not really all that noteworthy.

For now, I'd focus mainly on the anime. There's likely not going to be much Gen 7 promotion left for us to look at now that Gen 8 has been announced.

 

[Delzethin]

With April close away, it's only a matter of time until our next batch of DLC news...probably.

What form do you guys think the news will take? What kind of announcements do you think we'll see--not necessarily particular characters or modes or the like, but what types of news we'll get, when in the month we'll see it, et cetera.

 

[MasteRMerF]

With April close away, it's only a matter of time until our next batch of DLC news...probably.

What form do you guys think the news will take? What kind of announcements do you think we'll see--not necessarily particular characters or modes or the like, but what types of news we'll get, when in the month we'll see it, et cetera.

I am curious to see what/how much we'll get in the spring update, aside from, presumably Joker. I found it a little odd they announced the update and didn't really say anything about it, but more Smash Ultimate content is always welcome.

 

[RandomAce]

With April close away, it's only a matter of time until our next batch of DLC news...probably.

What form do you guys think the news will take? What kind of announcements do you think we'll see--not necessarily particular characters or modes or the like, but what types of news we'll get, when in the month we'll see it, et cetera.

I think we’ll see a Smash Direct some time in early to mid April (around the next week or two). We’ll probably get an announcement of it the day before.

I think it’ll show Joker’s Gameplay Trailer, moveset showcase, and release date. Then we’ll see a showcase of the 3.0 update. Then a newcomer, their moveset, and release time.

If possible, I think less likely we’ll get some Mii Costumes and maybe a second newcomer (or tease of a second newcomer).

 

[Delzethin]

Here's a random idea that came to me earlier. Check out the chart three seconds into the clip here:

5 new sets of DLC await with the Super #SmashBrosUltimate Fighters Pass, each containing 1 new fighter, 1 new stage and a number of additional music tracks! Joker joins the battle before the end of April!

👉 https://t.co/4n5zZMUtq9 pic.twitter.com/KtcDErsLv3

— Nintendo of Europe (@NintendoEurope) March 26, 2019

Maybe we could design a mockup graphic of Lycanroc based on that style? Just for fun, and maybe to give us a little more of an air of legitimacy.

Also, the way they phrased "before the end of April" seems to imply Joker may still be a few weeks away...

 

[RandomAce]

Here's a random idea that came to me earlier. Check out the chart three seconds into the clip here:

5 new sets of DLC await with the Super #SmashBrosUltimate Fighters Pass, each containing 1 new fighter, 1 new stage and a number of additional music tracks! Joker joins the battle before the end of April!

👉 https://t.co/4n5zZMUtq9 pic.twitter.com/KtcDErsLv3

— Nintendo of Europe (@NintendoEurope) March 26, 2019

Maybe we could design a mockup graphic of Lycanroc based on that style? Just for fun, and maybe to give us a little more of an air of legitimacy.

Also, the way they phrased "before the end of April" seems to imply Joker may still be a few weeks away...

Anything to help give Lycanroc an idea of what it could look like in Smash is good in my book.

Although, it seems they’re using pre-existing art for Joker here, I think they would be probably use the official S/M art for Lycanroc on this.

Spoiler: Example

Also, the way they’re sort of hyping up Joker here, and how close we are to April makes me think that upcoming new is actually coming sooner than later.

 

[Delzethin]

Anything to help give Lycanroc an idea of what it could look like in Smash is good in my book.

Although, it seems they’re using pre-existing art for Joker here, I think they would be probably use the official S/M art for Lycanroc on this.

Spoiler: Example

View attachment 201631

Also, the way they’re sort of hyping up Joker here, and how close we are to April makes me think that upcoming new is actually coming sooner than later.

We're in a weird spot where we don't know if the use of a Joker still from the reveal trailer is part of a trend or if it's just a placeholder because they haven't shown off the ingame render yet. That said...the official art's still (probably) our best bet either way.

And if anything, the way they emphasized "by the end of April" seems to be their way of saying "be patient and don't freak out if he's not here right away like Piranha Plant was". Though it hardly matters for us, other than raising the odds of multiple reveals happening the later this potential Smash Direct is...

 

[Guynamednelson]

Points in Banjo's favor are being leaked.

Remember how I thought the Duck Hunt theory could work for Lycanroc instead? Let's remember why someone would connect Duck Hunt with Banjo and see if someone finds files with Duck Hunt names in Banjo's data if it's true.

 

[Garteam]

Points in Banjo's favor are being leaked.

Remember how I thought the Duck Hunt theory could work for Lycanroc instead? Let's remember why someone would connect Duck Hunt with Banjo and see if someone finds files with Duck Hunt names in Banjo's data if it's true.

I really don't think it's Banjo.

I could see why someone would come to that conclusion, both are mammals with birds on their backs, but they're pretty different in every other way. Duck Hunt is a quadruped that makes heavy use of projectiles and disjointed attacks. Banjo would probably be a mid-weight would specializes in all-around gameplay. I'd say that Mario or Pac-Man would be a better base for him.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I really don't think it's Banjo.

I could see why someone would come to that conclusion, both are mammals with birds on their backs, but they're pretty different in every other way. Duck Hunt is a quadruped that makes heavy use of projectiles and disjointed attacks. Banjo would probably be a mid-weight would specializes in all-around gameplay. I'd say that Mario or Pac-Man would be a better base for him.

Keep in mind this is what the unanimated Duck Hunt model looks like

It's from Smash 4 but since Ultimate was built directly off of it I don't think that matters.

 

[Cosmic77]

Keep in mind this is what the unanimated Duck Hunt model looks like
View attachment 202219
It's from Smash 4 but since Ultimate was built directly off of it I don't think that matters.

Even though this pose has him standing up, nearly all of his moveset animations feature him standing/running on all fours. While the Duck might make Kazooie a little easier to program, Sakurai would likely have an easier time developing Banjo by choosing a biped character, possibly even a human.

 

[Delzethin]

Points in Banjo's favor are being leaked.

Remember how I thought the Duck Hunt theory could work for Lycanroc instead? Let's remember why someone would connect Duck Hunt with Banjo and see if someone finds files with Duck Hunt names in Banjo's data if it's true.

Is there something new beyond the scrap data for Rare spirits we found way back on release? I haven't seen anything brought up anywhere else yet. Granted, I've also been working on a thing, so I haven't been actively looking at all today.

There's also the possibility that Banjo and Kazooie did get picked, but aren't yet in development because they'll be one of the last couple newcomers in this set. We do know these deals are set up way in advance when it comes to third party content--there were rumors of a second Square-Enix character last August, yet Sir Open Secret is not only DLC but hasn't been revealed yet over half a year later, and talk of Minecraft content from last May still hasn't amounted to anything from Microsoft whatsoever yet...aside from the aforementioned Rare scrap data.

I really don't think it's Banjo.

I could see why someone would come to that conclusion, both are mammals with birds on their backs, but they're pretty different in every other way. Duck Hunt is a quadruped that makes heavy use of projectiles and disjointed attacks. Banjo would probably be a mid-weight would specializes in all-around gameplay. I'd say that Mario or Pac-Man would be a better base for him.

Keep in mind this is what the unanimated Duck Hunt model looks like
View attachment 202219
It's from Smash 4 but since Ultimate was built directly off of it I don't think that matters.

That's the big question mark here, if our theory about the game crashes ends up meaning anything: Are veteran characters' models used as reference purely for the new character's rig, or for their animations instead? With Smash 4's DLC, it trended toward the latter--in fact, there're examples of obscure stuff actually using the source character's files, such as (if I remember right) Roy's idle animation changing to match Marth's when he's holding certain items! But how is Ultimate handling it? After all, Piranha Plant doesn't use much from Bowser Jr. at all aside from the vague shape of the model and hurtboxes.

So which would matter more if Banjo & Kazooie are in development? Would they pick a character to reference that had two models to start with, one being a bird already, without being able to use any of said character's animations? Or would they pick a character like Mario who whose basic animations and proportions they could use with some basic resizing, while needing to add another model for Kazooie?

Or there's the very real possibility that the theory about the game crashes being caused by characters whose assets are being used for DLC is just a red herring. Or who knows, maybe we could pull a Shulk and get in anyway.

Hm...

 

[Guynamednelson]

Is there something new beyond the scrap data for Rare spirits we found way back on release? I haven't seen anything brought up anywhere else yet. Granted, I've also been working on a thing, so I haven't been actively looking at all today.

https://twitter.com/GenosPapa/status/1111473711704666112

I'm now starting to think that if Pikachu wasn't already in, it never would be, since it's not a humanoid starter with an obvious fighter archetype.

 

[RandomAce]

Here's a random idea that came to me earlier. Check out the chart three seconds into the clip here:

5 new sets of DLC await with the Super #SmashBrosUltimate Fighters Pass, each containing 1 new fighter, 1 new stage and a number of additional music tracks! Joker joins the battle before the end of April!

👉 https://t.co/4n5zZMUtq9 pic.twitter.com/KtcDErsLv3

— Nintendo of Europe (@NintendoEurope) March 26, 2019

Maybe we could design a mockup graphic of Lycanroc based on that style? Just for fun, and maybe to give us a little more of an air of legitimacy.

Also, the way they phrased "before the end of April" seems to imply Joker may still be a few weeks away...

Coming back to this, I decided to try out some mock ups, they’re not best, but I did what I could.

Spoiler: Mock Ups

By the way, how are the stock icons for the other two Lycanroc’s going? I still haven’t seen any pop up yet.

As for the whole Banjo debate going on. Banjo making it in, still isn’t even a likely thing yet. So far, it’s a rumor that an insider has heard a bit that he decided to share, and he was only strong in Steve not being in.

Regardless, Banjo using Duck Hunt as a base is possible? Even if Mii Swordfighter and Duck Hunt are even used as starting points for new characters, I can only see Kazooie being referenced by the Duck, and even then a lot would have to be from scratch since there’s barely anything the Duck does that can be realized for Kazooie. The same thing goes for Banjo with the Dog where they probably wouldn’t have much to go off that can be built off for Banjo other than the fact that the dog might have a similar build and fur color. I feel like it’s a rehash of how in Smash 4, some people said Banjo & Kazooie would be a Duck Hunt 2.0 when they wouldn’t be alike in any way other than “they’re both mammals that use birds”.

Tbh, I think Lycanroc wouldn’t completely be based on Duck Hunt. But I could see them pulling some aspects from Wolf as well. I know I argued before how Wolf and Lycanroc are very different, but I’m talking about their assets. For instance, Wolf’s head can more easily be used to be shaped into a Lycanroc’s as their heads are more anatomically similar. Wolf’s claw attacks could also be used as reference point for some of Lycanroc’s attacks as well, since they’re mostly likely going to use a lot of slashing in their movesets due to their also large claws.

But those are my thoughts.

 

[Arcadenik]

Keep in mind this is what the unanimated Duck Hunt model looks like
View attachment 202219
It's from Smash 4 but since Ultimate was built directly off of it I don't think that matters.

Amazing! That’s how I envisioned Duck Hunt Dog before SSB4. A bipedal dog that uses ducks as weapons.

 

[Delzethin]

https://twitter.com/GenosPapa/status/1111473711704666112

Ah, I remember him. He was heavily involved in speculation near the end of the base roster's reveal cycle.

So from what he's saying, all he's heard are rumors and to take them with a grain of salt. Not enough to sway things on their own, but something worth keeping an eye on in the long run.

Personally, I've been thinking there'll be a Microsoft character in this set of DLC, said character will be the last reveal for this set...and I keep going back and forth between Steve and Banjo and honestly it's probably a coin toss between them. If one does get in, I could see the other potentially making it if a second "season" of DLC happens.

I have no insider information, though. Just a guess on my part.

--------------------

Meanwhile, I've been coming up with ideas for extra touches and details that could go into a Lycanroc moveset to really make them shine. Like, imagine a Dusk form concept where the taunts change to be fiercer looking and sounding if you perform them while your berserk mode is active? Maybe they'd even create an aurora effect that'd come from the left blast zone?

 

[RandomAce]

Some interesting things have come up.

For instance, the promotional banner that had Joker changed from “Approaching April” to “Approaching”. Some people have also been hinting that there may be an announcement at the end of the PAX North American Smash Open happening right now, it’s also being streamed by Nintendo. Not necessarily a reveal, but something similar to what happened at EVO 2018 where they announced an Smash Direct.

Whether that means much... is up to you. But with all the russlings happening recently, I think we may get some news very soon. I still think we could get a first and third party revealed with this direct, should it come.

EDIT: Well you can forget about anything PAX related here. As there was, expectedly, nothing.

 

[Delzethin]

Well, so much for a PAX announcement. What we believed was insider teasing was actually just speculation.

However, turns out Best Buy may have let Joker's render slip early in their weekly ad, so...damned if I know what's going on.

-------------------------

So, I've been mulling over a question I've heard brought up a lot any time I try to bring in new support: "Why would they look at Gen 7 again when Gen 8 is coming soon?" Why look at the older games when a big new entry is coming up, why not take the chance to champion that instead?

Well, the main thing is it wouldn't be a matter of "pick Gen 7 or Gen 8" so much as "Gen 8 (probably) wasn't an option when this wave of DLC was picked in November, but they might have checked out a part of Gen 7 that itself hadn't been an option for the base game". But I think I've found precedent of this exact thing happening before:

Everything about Inkling, from appearance to alts to their moveset, is based on the original Splatoon even though Splatoon 2 released halfway into Ultimate's development. Their stage is pulled from Splatoon 1 (though it's also present in 2), and their assist trophy is the Squid Sisters as of the time Splatoon 1 took place. In fact, the only content in Ultimate from Splatoon 2 is a few spirits, about 1/3 of the music tracks on Moray Towers, and Lil' Judd hanging out next to Judd while the fighting is going on.

Splatoon 2 was still mid-development when Ultimate's base roster was ironed out, so Sakurai and the devs focused on Splatoon 1 for the lion's share of that series' content. Something similar could happen with Pokémon for the Fighter Pass, especially since Sword & Shield were still a full year away when the newcomers were chosen.

Also, the Splatoon 2 music & spirits just makes the lack of USUM content even weirder. I realize there was a four month difference between their releases, but damn...

 

[Guynamednelson]

In fact, the only content in Ultimate from Splatoon 2 is a few spirits, about 1/3 of the music tracks on Moray Towers, and Lil' Judd hanging out next to Judd while the fighting is going on.

There's also the Splatoon 2 Inkling costume for Mii Gunners. Why they would take the time to make such a costume and not think about making it for the actual playable Inklings instead, I have no idea.

EDIT: I just thought about Ryu as well: He joined the world of Smash when SFV was on the way, yet he mostly references SFII with a couple of nods to III and IV.

 

[RandomAce]

Well, so much for a PAX announcement. What we believed was insider teasing was actually just speculation.

However, turns out Best Buy may have let Joker's render slip early in their weekly ad, so...damned if I know what's going on.

-------------------------

So, I've been mulling over a question I've heard brought up a lot any time I try to bring in new support: "Why would they look at Gen 7 again when Gen 8 is coming soon?" Why look at the older games when a big new entry is coming up, why not take the chance to champion that instead?

Well, the main thing is it wouldn't be a matter of "pick Gen 7 or Gen 8" so much as "Gen 8 (probably) wasn't an option when this wave of DLC was picked in November, but they might have checked out a part of Gen 7 that itself hadn't been an option for the base game". But I think I've found precedent of this exact thing happening before:

Everything about Inkling, from appearance to alts to their moveset, is based on the original Splatoon even though Splatoon 2 released halfway into Ultimate's development. Their stage is pulled from Splatoon 1 (though it's also present in 2), and their assist trophy is the Squid Sisters as of the time Splatoon 1 took place. In fact, the only content in Ultimate from Splatoon 2 is a few spirits, about 1/3 of the music tracks on Moray Towers, and Lil' Judd hanging out next to Judd while the fighting is going on.

Splatoon 2 was still mid-development when Ultimate's base roster was ironed out, so Sakurai and the devs focused on Splatoon 1 for the lion's share of that series' content. Something similar could happen with Pokémon for the Fighter Pass, especially since Sword & Shield were still a full year away when the newcomers were chosen.

Also, the Splatoon 2 music & spirits just makes the lack of USUM content even weirder. I realize there was a four month difference between their releases, but damn...

Seeing how some companies have promotional assets of Joker now. Joker seems to be coming sooner and sooner.

As for the whole Gen 7 vs Gen 8 thing. The way Incineroar was chosen is actually precedent for this. Sakurai didn’t decide between Decideuye and Incineroar a year before Sun and Moon came out, but it was actually when Sun and Moon released that he first looked at who to choose from. He only left a place holder to look for later.

Greninja was the only characater who was chosen before X and Y launched, and that was still a big risk since changes could’ve been done between then and he may not have been the blowout star he ended up being.

If a S/S pokemon were to join in this fighter pass, Sakurai would’ve had to chose that Pokémon as he did with Greninja, and seeing how that changed with S/M, it’s possible that Sakurai isn’t going to the same thing. It’s more likely that Sakurai would wait until Sword and Sheild released to gain an idea of who to choose from, and by that time, the Fighter pass would be around it’s last character and a couple of months left. It would be more likely for a Sword and Shield pokemon to appear in a second or later pass.

This opens up a time frame for Lycanroc as a sort of “now or never” decision similar to Corrin. If only the right circumstances can allow Lycanroc to be looked at and hopefully be given the limelight.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Greninja was the only characater who was chosen before X and Y launched, and that was still a big risk since changes could’ve been done between then and he may not have been the blowout star he ended up being.

I actually think Sakurai's choice influenced them to do things like Protean to ensure Greninja was popular. Meanwhile Incineroar was chosen after its design stirred up controversy, Mimikyu became a fan favorite with an established anime role, and Lycanroc was on the way to have that as well.

 

[Cosmic77]

Well, so much for a PAX announcement. What we believed was insider teasing was actually just speculation.

However, turns out Best Buy may have let Joker's render slip early in their weekly ad, so...damned if I know what's going on.

-------------------------

So, I've been mulling over a question I've heard brought up a lot any time I try to bring in new support: "Why would they look at Gen 7 again when Gen 8 is coming soon?" Why look at the older games when a big new entry is coming up, why not take the chance to champion that instead?

Well, the main thing is it wouldn't be a matter of "pick Gen 7 or Gen 8" so much as "Gen 8 (probably) wasn't an option when this wave of DLC was picked in November, but they might have checked out a part of Gen 7 that itself hadn't been an option for the base game". But I think I've found precedent of this exact thing happening before:

Everything about Inkling, from appearance to alts to their moveset, is based on the original Splatoon even though Splatoon 2 released halfway into Ultimate's development. Their stage is pulled from Splatoon 1 (though it's also present in 2), and their assist trophy is the Squid Sisters as of the time Splatoon 1 took place. In fact, the only content in Ultimate from Splatoon 2 is a few spirits, about 1/3 of the music tracks on Moray Towers, and Lil' Judd hanging out next to Judd while the fighting is going on.

Splatoon 2 was still mid-development when Ultimate's base roster was ironed out, so Sakurai and the devs focused on Splatoon 1 for the lion's share of that series' content. Something similar could happen with Pokémon for the Fighter Pass, especially since Sword & Shield were still a full year away when the newcomers were chosen.

Also, the Splatoon 2 music & spirits just makes the lack of USUM content even weirder. I realize there was a four month difference between their releases, but damn...

Sakurai could've easily added more Splatoon 2 content if he really wanted to. I mean, Mario got a new stage, Cappy, and his Wedding Outfit even though Splatoon 2 had been out for almost three months before Odyssey hit store shelves. The game Yoshi's eighth alt is taken from just came out last week. Luigi has a new grab inspired by a game that isn't even officially out yet.

Why we don't have much Splatoon 2 content is up to interpretation, but personally, I believe it's because Sakurai wanted to focus on the original game as much as possible when introducing Splatoon to Smash.

Greninja was the only characater who was chosen before X and Y launched, and that was still a big risk since changes could’ve been done between then and he may not have been the blowout star he ended up being.

If a S/S pokemon were to join in this fighter pass, Sakurai would’ve had to chose that Pokémon as he did with Greninja, and seeing how that changed with S/M, it’s possible that Sakurai isn’t going to the same thing. It’s more likely that Sakurai would wait until Sword and Sheild released to gain an idea of who to choose from, and by that time, the Fighter pass would be around it’s last character and a couple of months left. It would be more likely for a Sword and Shield pokemon to appear in a second or later pass.

This opens up a time frame for Lycanroc as a sort of “now or never” decision similar to Corrin. If only the right circumstances can allow Lycanroc to be looked at and hopefully be given the limelight.

I think the method Sakurai uses for selecting Pokemon newcomers is simpler than we think it is.

Regardless of whether or not a Pokemon becomes popular, it likely all depends on who Game Freak will attempt to make popular. Sakurai asks who they plan on promoting, Game Freak gives him a list, and he selects a Pokemon who he believes is unique but also "safe". That's probably why our previous two newcomers were starters. All three are practically guaranteed to be popular to some degree, they're extremely iconic to their respective Gen, and there's way less risk than selecting a Pokemon who could potentially fizzle out one week after it's announced.

I think a better question for us to ask is, "Will Sakurai care enough to wait and judge the popularity of the Sword/Shield Pokemon for himself, or will he be content with Game Freak handing over development notes and nudging him in a specific direction?"

 

[Delzethin]

Alright. Remember how I've been mulling over ideas for how to leave some kind of impact regardless of what happens? To have some way of getting word out?

Maybe this guy could help: https://twitter.com/TKOWL_Art

He's started doing commissions for illustrated character concepts. Maybe that'd be something we could look into. I don't have much disposable income of note, and I don't know what things are looking like for the rest of you so I won't put you guys on the spot, but it'd be one possible option if your...bodies are ready for it. What, I can't not say it today.

Maybe he'd offer a discount for art of an already-built concept that he wouldn't have to come up with himself?

-------------------------

As for the whole Gen 7 vs Gen 8 thing. The way Incineroar was chosen is actually precedent for this. Sakurai didn’t decide between Decideuye and Incineroar a year before Sun and Moon came out, but it was actually when Sun and Moon released that he first looked at who to choose from. He only left a place holder to look for later.

Greninja was the only characater who was chosen before X and Y launched, and that was still a big risk since changes could’ve been done between then and he may not have been the blowout star he ended up being.

If a S/S pokemon were to join in this fighter pass, Sakurai would’ve had to chose that Pokémon as he did with Greninja, and seeing how that changed with S/M, it’s possible that Sakurai isn’t going to the same thing. It’s more likely that Sakurai would wait until Sword and Sheild released to gain an idea of who to choose from, and by that time, the Fighter pass would be around it’s last character and a couple of months left. It would be more likely for a Sword and Shield pokemon to appear in a second or later pass.

This opens up a time frame for Lycanroc as a sort of “now or never” decision similar to Corrin. If only the right circumstances can allow Lycanroc to be looked at and hopefully be given the limelight.

I don't believe we actually have an exact idea of when Greninja was decided on, even. For all we know, they may have waited then, too, which just gives us further reason to believe they wouldn't jump the gun with Gen 8 here.

Another example is...Corrin, believe it or not. Based on some dataminers delving into Smash 4's files, we've reason to believe development on Corrin started the latest of the DLC characters, specifically some time in the spring. This lines up with Sakurai's word that his team had set aside a placeholder for "a character from a newer game", but the timing here is what is getting overlooked. Because despite all the talk of how "Corrin got in before their game was even out"...that's not actually true. Fire Emblem Fates made its debut in Japan in late June 2015, about 7 1/2 months before Corrin's inclusion in Smash...and just a short couple months after development on Corrin in Smash began.

This means they pulled the trigger on Corrin at a point where Fates had either gone gold or was about to, a point where every detail about Corrin had been set in stone. This also shows just how long it can take to fully develop these characters, over half a year. In other words, for anyone from Gen 8 to even be an option for this wave, the Smash team would need to 1) have set aside a placeholder for Gen 8 despite Sakurai implying everyone was locked in last November, and 2) begin development on a character no later than nearly half a year before its debut game is finished, a point where certain aspects could still change in ways the Smash team would not be able to account for.

I actually think Sakurai's choice influenced them to do things like Protean to ensure Greninja was popular. Meanwhile Incineroar was chosen after its design stirred up controversy, Mimikyu became a fan favorite with an established anime role, and Lycanroc was on the way to have that as well.

Eh...I dunno about that. Seems a little too tail-wagging-the-dog, that such major decisions would be made based on the whims of a completely different developer from a completely different company. It's the same reason why I don't buy the idea that Smash and Pokkén affected each other's rosters--it feels like trying so hard to find patterns to the point of forcing them on where they don't necessarily exist.

 

[Cosmic77]

Alright. Remember how I've been mulling over ideas for how to leave some kind of impact regardless of what happens? To have some way of getting word out?

Maybe this guy could help: https://twitter.com/TKOWL_Art

He's started doing commissions for illustrated character concepts. Maybe that'd be something we could look into. I don't have much disposable income of note, and I don't know what things are looking like for the rest of you, so I won't you guys on the spot, but it'd be one possible option if your...bodies are ready for it. What, I can't not say it today.

Maybe he'd offer a discount for art of an already-built concept that he wouldn't have to come up with himself?

I actually know that guy. He has an account on Smashboards too. He often submitted some very creative and wonderfully illustrated entries for the Stage Creator contests I used to judge.

He might offer a small discount if I show him what we already have, but I can't say for sure. To him, I'm probably one of the many insignificant people he's come in contact with when discussing Smash over the years.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I've changed my mind. I don't care how popular Pokemon is and if there's a bajillion of those creatures, Pokemon only deserves like four reps at best and they should all be like Incineroar: Humanoid starters whose designs make their moveset incredibly obvious. Another strong-but-slow Captain Falcon would be a much better choice than a Pokemon that breaks this pattern.

 

[Delzethin]

So apparently Showdown is having some fun again this year:

Pokemon Showdown! has been updated with new HD sprites. Please have a look-> https://t.co/iS3IU9GhgT pic.twitter.com/jiTnhURuCy

— Smogon University (@SmogonU) April 1, 2019

Anyone found an image/collection of all the..."art" lying around anywhere?

I actually know that guy. He has an account on Smashboards too. He often submitted some very creative and wonderfully illustrated entries for the Stage Creator contests I used to judge.

He might offer a small discount if I show him what we already have, but I can't say for sure. To him, I'm probably one of the many insignificant people he's come in contact with when discussing Smash over the years.

Hey, I didn't realize he had an account here! Hopefully that'll make it easier to at least get in contact.

I've changed my mind. I don't care how popular Pokemon is and if there's a bajillion of those creatures, Pokemon only deserves like four reps at best and they should all be like Incineroar: Humanoid starters whose designs make their moveset incredibly obvious. Another strong-but-slow Captain Falcon would be a much better choice than a Pokemon that breaks this pattern.

Er...what's going on? Something happen elsewhere on the boards?