Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Cosmic77]

Yeah, I don't get how Decidueye fans wouldn't keep up for some of the same reasons we do: No spirit*, and the lack of an Alola stage and USUM music is perfect for how challenger packs are set up.

*Assuming they do deconfirm. I wouldn't want that, because it's an absurdly high number of deconfirmations.

The lack of morale for Decidueye stems mostly from the assumption that only one Pokemon from a modern Gen will get in each Smash game. It's a valid point, since there's only a few instances in Smash history where a single modern (modern at the time the roster for the game was decided) game has gotten two reps at once. Red/Blue, OoT, and Awakening are the only three examples I can think of from the top of my head.

Plus, the user who owns the Decidueye support thread is almost an exact opposite of Delzethin in terms of blind optimism. It hit him pretty hard when Verge made those comments, and he basically threw in the towel after Incineroar's reveal.

 

[Garteam]

The lack of morale for Decidueye stems mostly from the assumption that only one Pokemon from a modern Gen will get in each Smash game. It's a valid point, since there's only a few instances in Smash history where a single modern (modern at the time the roster for the game was decided) game has gotten two reps at once. Red/Blue, OoT, and Awakening are the only three examples I can think of from the top of my head.

Plus, the user who owns the Decidueye support thread is almost an exact opposite of Delzethin in terms of blind optimism. It hit him pretty hard when Verge made those comments, and he basically threw in the towel after Incineroar's reveal.

Kid Icarus Uprising also technically counts, seeing how we got both (who, let's be honest, would have a snowball's chance in hell without Uprising) and .

I think Decidueye is ultimately dead in the water. He probably wouldn't have gotten mentioned as a candidate for the base game in an interview if Sakurai still thought he could make the battle. It's a shame too, considering I actually like Decidueye a fair bit. At least he'll always have Pokken.

 

[Super10ZX]

I think I have a theory as to why Incineroar was chosen over other Gen 7 candidates (I haven’t had time to read through the whole thread yet, so apologies if this idea was already mentioned). When Smash 4 came out, Ash’s Greninja was still a Frogadier. In fact, it didn’t evolve into Greninja until over a year after SSB4 was released. Maybe a similar case is happening with Ash’s Torracat, though since the Sun and Moon anime will be done by the end of the year they better evolve it quick. Guzma is only appearing in the anime now, so this longer approach to things isn’t exclusive to Incineroar.

Also, you can add me to the support list. I’m more of a Decidueye guy myself, but Lycanroc could be cool with its rock abilities. He’s always been my second pick for a Gen 7 Pokémon.

 

[Delzethin]

Didn't the interviewer bring up Krystal in that specific question? I don't remember that answer as being "Actually, we planned Krystal but she didn't make the cut" as much as it was "No, Krystal wasn't planned and Wolf only got in because we needed derivative characters at the end of the cycle"

Even then, Incineroar isn't exactly a derivative character and saying he must've been in because he must've been easy to make is not only a big assumption in a thread where assumptions and "must-be's" are as dreaded as the devil, but also an assumption made in both contempt of the candidate chosen and in an overestimation of your own character (as Lycanroc in this scenario would've been too unique to make the cut, instead of, I dunno, not as interesting or important as you make him out to be)

I know Delz threw it out there as a theory, and this post isn't an attack on something only half-serious, but this thread seems to be pretty hardcore in speculating and it's an atmosphere that's influenced this and other posts I make in this thread

Well, in the interview in question, the way the two are described makes it plausibly seem like it came down to one or the other. Krystal was strongly considered but couldn't get off the ground because they'd have had to build her from scratch, while Wolf narrowly made it due to ease of develpoment yet was not a last-minute addition. It seems as it Brawl's heavy workload forced them to make a pragmatic decision and shelve their concept for one character because they didn't have the time to get the model and details right, while another character got the all clear because they would not have that problem.

Though that pertains more to Decidueye than to us, since it seems like bad timing and an unusually early roster cutoff did us in for the base roster, not developmental issues.

I think I have a theory as to why Incineroar was chosen over other Gen 7 candidates (I haven’t had time to read through the whole thread yet, so apologies if this idea was already mentioned). When Smash 4 came out, Ash’s Greninja was still a Frogadier. In fact, it didn’t evolve into Greninja until over a year after SSB4 was released. Maybe a similar case is happening with Ash’s Torracat, though since the Sun and Moon anime will be done by the end of the year they better evolve it quick. Guzma is only appearing in the anime now, so this longer approach to things isn’t exclusive to Incineroar.

Also, you can add me to the support list. I’m more of a Decidueye guy myself, but Lycanroc could be cool with its rock abilities. He’s always been my second pick for a Gen 7 Pokémon.

The problem with that theory is while Ash didn't actually have a Greninja until later into the XY anime, it was getting a lot of focus and attention throughout the anime leading up to then, even as a Froakie and Frogadier. In the Alola anime, Ash's Lycanroc has been the one with that spotlight, including being the focus of two Grand Trials, two Tapu encounters, three (and counting) battles with Gladion (playing the role of Ash's rival for Alola), and being present for multiple major plot developments (even leading the charge against possessed!Lusamine). Even had an entire story arc running in the background about getting closer to evolving, with characters wondering what form he'd evolve into! And that's not even counting Gladion's own Lycanroc (basically his ace for the anime, used more often than Silvally), or Olivia's in a few episodes!

Compared to that, Ash's Torracat has one Totem battle, two out of the three Masked Royal paralogue episodes (the third was focused on Kukui himself trying to be in two places at once), and an admittedly tragic backstory. It's just not the same, you know? Not to say it's impossible, but it seems unlikely based on the situation so far.

Then there's also timing to consider. Ash got his Greninja in December 2015, with a little less than a year to go before Gen 7 took over. December 2018 came and went without an evolution, and we're in March now and Ash's Torracat still hasn't evolved and there hasn't even been any buildup toward it yet. May not evolve again at all, and even if it does, it'd be really sloppy writing to have a character suddenly take over as team ace who hasn't had the role at all so far and hasn't had anything hinting that it'd happen.

Sorry for rambling like that. It's just...frustrating, when we got a character here who has done so much in the same vein as Greninja get so little credit for it just because it's not a starter. So many Smash speculators seem to think you have to be a starter or have to be someone non-Pokémon fans talk about a lot in order to stand a chance. Being on the back end of a double standard like that...it leaves a chip on your shoulder after a while.

Glad to have you here, though! I swear I'm not angry at you for bringing it up, I'm just naturally really critical of stuff. Even wears on myself sometimes, haha.

Plus, the user who owns the Decidueye support thread is almost an exact opposite of Delzethin in terms of blind optimism.

Hey now, I can't pull off blind optimism. It's something closer to "not until the fat lady sings".

 

[WeirdChillFever]

To be fair, before Greninja was confirmed, not even Greninja got a lot of Smash-related credit for his anime appearance. To be fair, I'm not entirely sure on how the confirmation of Greninja matches up with the anime timeline because again you can't expect me to watch a wholeass anime for a character I didn't support from a series whose choice didn't matter to me.

Despite that, I don't share Delzethin's sentiment that Lycanroc wasn't given a fair chance because he's not a starter, because leaks muddled the water quite quickly. It's hard to say how and if Lycanroc's momentum would've developed without that.

 

[Cosmic77]

To be fair, before Greninja was confirmed, not even Greninja got a lot of Smash-related credit for his anime appearance. To be fair, I'm not entirely sure on how the confirmation of Greninja matches up with the anime timeline because again you can't expect me to watch a wholeass anime for a character I didn't support from a series whose choice didn't matter to me.

A single episode of the anime is usually planned several months in advance, and seeing how Ash was implied to catch Froakie in literally the first episode of XY (which premiered in October, 2013), I think it's safe to assume that anyone in the Froakie line would be recommended to Sakurai.

I think a lot of people are making the mistake of looking at the anime episodes that aired close to when Sakurai decided the roster. Yes, Ash didn't have a Greninja or Incineroar when the Smash games were being made, but did GameFreak inform Sakurai that Ash had a Froakie and Litten? Did they tell him that the writers had plans to evolve them toward the end of the series? These are things we have to ask instead of assuming the plot was written episode by episode.

 

[Garteam]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2019/03/armoured_mewtwo_trademarked_in_japan

It looks like the armoured evolution rumour may be real. Alternatively, they may just be referring to the armour that Giovanni used to control Mewtwo in the first movie.

If this is real, fingers crossed that things turn out our way and Lycanroc gets a cool new set of armour.

 

[Guynamednelson]

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2019/03/armoured_mewtwo_trademarked_in_japan

It looks like the armoured evolution rumour may be real. Alternatively, they may just be referring to the armour that Giovanni used to control Mewtwo in the first movie.

If this is real, fingers crossed that things turn out our way and Lycanroc gets a cool new set of armour.

Wouldn't they have filed a trademark for something like "Armored Evolution" instead? This could just be for Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution.

 

[Delzethin]

Whoa, we surged right by the 2,000 point mark without even noticing! Let no one say we aren't still hanging on despite us being so isolated.

To be fair, before Greninja was confirmed, not even Greninja got a lot of Smash-related credit for his anime appearance. To be fair, I'm not entirely sure on how the confirmation of Greninja matches up with the anime timeline because again you can't expect me to watch a wholeass anime for a character I didn't support from a series whose choice didn't matter to me.

Well, with Greninja there's also the fact that the Smash reveal happened less than 6 months into the Kalos anime, so there hadn't been time to see how things were going yet.

I didn't get into Smash 4 speculation until a little while after Greninja's reveal, but from what I remember seeing, people's thoughts on Pokémon were going something like this:

- At the beginning, there wasn't much talk at all. Some people had an eye on Zoroark, as X and Y hadn't been announced yet, while others played the "we have everyone who matters already" card. Most discussion was pointed toward other franchises instead.
- Upon the reveal of Mega Mewtwo Y in the 2013 Mewtwo movie, then of Mega Evolutions as a whole, most speculators just penciled in Mewtwo returning with a new form and called it a day, deciding Mewtwo was "more deserving" than any other 'mon could've been due to being a veteran.
- Other Pokémon were hardly brought up at all. I don't remember any of the starters seeing any serious talk, because it was also believed that the idea of starters were "represented already" by Pokémon Trainer. Greninja hadn't even been rated by RTC upon its reveal!

So, I guess you could say the Smash community has a history of weird ideas when it comes to Pokémon talk. Remember a year ago, when the common belief even up until May was that they'd stick in a character from Gen 8 to "promote" the new generation that had to be coming a year early despite there being no proof of Gen 8 happening early?

 

[Noipoi]

Remember a year ago, when the common belief even up until May was that they'd stick in a character from Gen 8 to "promote" the new generation that had to be coming a year early despite there being no proof of Gen 8 happening early?

Oof, don't remind me. The days before Gen 8 were rough, i'm just glad Sword and Shield have been announced.

By the way, just wanted to let you guys know I still think Lycanroc would be cool. Behind Poipole, Incineroar and Mimikyu it's probably my favorite Alola Pokemon.

 

[RandomAce]

Since I haven’t said something here for some time, I may as well throw my hat in the ring.

I think the main reason why it ended up being mostly being between Decidueye and Incineroar is mainly due the developement circumstances and when Sakurai chose the Pokémon newcomer.

Ultimate has some of the least new contest in any Smash game, with the least newcomers (including echoes) and stages to date. It’s clear that development for new content was limited, and this bleeds into the newcomers who’s moveset don’t go in the same level as Smash 4’s in terms of gimmicks and off the wall ideas (for instance Inkling is the only character with a gimmick having an Ink Tank, and Isabelle is a semi-clone of Villager). So I think one factor that played into which Pokémon Sakurai was going for was how straightforward a Pokemon’s potential move set and build is to more easily visualize and develop. Decidueye and Incineroar show this, they both have concepts and body types that immediately ring a bell to how they would fight and more easily visualize and develop. The absence of Primerina is another point, since despite being a starter along with Decidueye and Incineroar, her body type and concept make it harder to visualize and develop and are up for interpretation, which I don’t Sakurai and his team would’ve taken this time around (and generally be more interested in the other options available).

Another reason is also the fact that both Decidueye and Incineroar are starters and are more safer to go with. I think it’s clear that popularity and promotion (including the anime) are important when deciding newcomers, and the Pokémon Roster (mainly ) heavily reflect this. The main reason for this is to help narrow down on which Pokémon to choose so Sakurai and the devs don’t have to break their necks over which of the 80-100 new Pokémon to consider. It’s why I also think Decidueye and Incineroar were the last two, as they were both starters and he felt that they were safe characters that people would at least be open to and familiar with. Incineroar could’ve had the nudge of being a more prominent character in the anime, as Incineroar did have a large movie role and was shown in his concept art to be with Ash... but as we’ve seen so far, somethings may have changed as there doesn’t seem to be any build up yet for Torrocat yet despite us being seemingly past the second half of the anime run, and a lot of plot happened to Lycanroc instead. And setting up a character after a couple years of build up only for another character to jump in around the end doesn’t seem like something they would do (and is quite frankly sloppy writing). It brings up another point, timing, which I’ll touch on later.

I think these are what Lycanroc got affected by. Midday and Dusk Lycanroc have these quadrupedal builds that wouldn’t be as straightforward and a bit harder to develop since they didn’t have the same body types as Decidueye and Incineroar, and they could’ve been set aside due to that. This leaves us with Midnight who could work, but I think it brings up another point. Timing. Similar to Greninja, Incineroar was picked around S/M’s release, however, Incineroar was picked two years early compared to Greninja’s one. Despite Game Freak most likely already having plans for Lycanroc to be a bigger player this past gen, there was still the question of whether Lycanroc would actually be a big enough Pokémon popular with fans that Sakurai could take the risk of going with. Not only Dusk, but Midday and Midnight also didn’t start catching steam until early 2017, and with very little newcomers this time around, every character had to count, and there wasn’t much going on with Lycanroc during S/M’s release which made Lycanroc a risk that Sakurai may not have decided to take, and why he opted for the starters in the end.

Lycanroc’s design may also be a factor. Unlike Greninja and the other starters, Lycanroc has more tamer design. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as not everything has to look overcomplicated to work, but it could’ve also led Sakurai to be more interested in working with Incineroar and Decidueye, and also go into the fact that it was still unknown whether Lycanroc would still be popular big Pokémon and worth the risk. I’m pretty sure that when Sakurai looked at Greninja and it’s slick design and saw how it was supposed to be this next big thing as Ash’s Main Pokémon with a unique evolution, it was a no-brainer. But this time with Lycanroc, it was a bigger gamble.

Despite this, I do think Lycanroc was given some serious consideration, and was opted out for these reasons, heck I even think Lycanroc could’ve been next in line. However, many of the factors that were against Lycanroc seem null now. Pirahna Plant was added despite having a more unusual structure to work with, and despite being a big risk of using a generic enemy, people loved it. Lycanroc has proven to be a big pokemon this past generation with all the forms being popular, used a lot in marketing, and as said before, Dusk Lycanroc has had a lot of plot relevance in the anime and Midnight also joins in by being the main pokemon of Gladion (who seem to be Ash’s main rival).

The main question is: Is Sakurai and Nintendo willing to double down on Sun and Moon and add Lycanroc? It’s not certain, but Lycanroc isn’t as much of a gamble as much as they were back then and have a fan base to boot, along with the moveset and gimmick possibilities for an interesting moveset that Sakurai looks for are there. So I’d say Lycanroc has a fair chance.

In the end though, let’s see if what more we can unfold, and hopefully if they unfold in our favor.
——————————————————————

Eyyy! Another 1,000 post milestone! The Lycanroc discussion still lives!

Sorry for another wall of text from yours truly (I feel like I’m Diem now when he talks about Dakr Samus sometimes) but the recent discussion fired me up. And I thought now was the time to get my head straight and share my whole thoughts regarding the whole situation with Gen 7 and what I think of Lycanroc at the moment. I did want to mention about how Vergeben deconfirmed Lycanroc. Seeing how similar to Decidueye, there was nothing in the base game to prove it, however, Decidueye was mentioned to be considered, where we didn’t here anything about Lycanroc yet. But it’s still pure speculation at the moment and a whole other can of worms.

Finally, a welcome to Super10ZX as a new supporter. It’s been 3,000 years A long time since we got a new supporter, so it’s nice to see a fresh face at a time like this.

Let’s keep up the good fight!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Another reason is also the fact that both Decidueye and Incineroar are starters and are more safer to go with.

As I've said before, Incineroar is simultaneously safe and unsafe, being a starter, the one who has the most anime prominence, and was probably the easiest choice to make a unique fighter, but is not the king of popularity or promotion in Alola. You can see some more examples of simultaneous safety and non-safety on the Pokemon roster:
Could be built directly off Kirby, was popular at the time with a recurring anime gag. However, people doubt its popularity now.
Heavily promoted at the time, obvious clone of Pikachu. However, even the anti-tier crowd thought it was F-tier until Ultimate, and there are people who want more badass Gen 2 Pokemon.
Makes sense in terms of "complete the starter/evolutionary stage trio", but Bulbasaur and Venusaur are way more popular. Would've never gotten in had PT not been a thing.

Lycanroc itself would be one of these "simultaneously safe and unsafe" characters:
+Bigger fan favorite
+More anime prominence
-Harder to make, have to consider items
-The crowd that wants Decidueye or Gen 8 Pokemon
-Debates on whether or not Pokemon SM or the franchise in general deserves this number of reps
-It could even be doubtful that Lycanroc is a bigger fan favorite, because I'll admit it, Smash has been a big help for Incineroar's popularity. People who wanted Grinch characters or Decidueye will still say the cat's a blast to play.

 

[RandomAce]

So some new episodes for the Sun and Moon anime have been leaked/shown along with a couple of new things that have happened recently . So for anyone that wants to see how the anime is doing so far, here’s a quick summary.

Spoiler: In case you like to keep the anime a surprise.

Ep. 112: A New Speices has been discovered. I Got A Meltan!

Yep, after learning about the new Pokémon and stopping Team Rocket once again, Ash finally adds another Pokémon to his team. Meltan! Surprising but not completely unexpected. The episode has been just released by the way.

Ep. 113: The Magikarp King

The famous Magikarp King is a famous child actor in a popular tv-series. But, something seems to go wrong this time around. Looks like a filler episode.

Ep. 114: Ultra Beast Encounter! Pheromosa!

A new Ultra Beast has appeared in Alola, this time it’s Pheromosa takes the spotlight. Most likely a fight between Ash and her and they most likely will send her back to where she originally came from.

Ep. 115: Golisopod and Guzma!

FINALLY! Ya boy Guzma at last showed up in the anime. But this isn’t just a meet and greet, Ash is challenging Guzma to a Pokémon battle! I’m stoked for this one.

And that’s what we have so far. Looking into Ash’s potential fight with Guzma, I’m willing to bet Lycanroc will be used against Golisopod, seeing the trend of how these bigger types of battles have been involving Lycanroc recently. And also, aside from Pikachu and Lycanroc, all Ash has is a Rowlet, Torrocat, and just now a Meltan. C’mon Ash, we’re two years in and that’s all that was managed?

This anime run so far seemed to be slowest in terms of team build up.

 

[Delzethin]

Despite this, I do think Lycanroc was given some serious consideration, and was opted out for these reasons, heck I even think Lycanroc could’ve been next in line. However, many of the factors that were against Lycanroc seem null now. Pirahna Plant was added despite having a more unusual structure to work with, and despite being a big risk of using a generic enemy, people loved it. Lycanroc has proven to be a big pokemon this past generation with all the forms being popular, used a lot in marketing, and as said before, Dusk Lycanroc has had a lot of plot relevance in the anime and Midnight also joins in by being the main pokemon of Gladion (who seem to be Ash’s main rival).

The main question is: Is Sakurai and Nintendo willing to double down on Sun and Moon and add Lycanroc? It’s not certain, but Lycanroc isn’t as much of a gamble as much as they were back then and have a fan base to boot, along with the moveset and gimmick possibilities for an interesting moveset that Sakurai looks for are there. So I’d say Lycanroc has a fair chance.

In the end though, let’s see if what more we can unfold, and hopefully if they unfold in our favor.

Yeah, it's a strange situation. On one hand, time is of the essence and about 90% of speculators think we're not worth giving a look, believing Gen 8 must be getting pushed ASAP despite there being serious questions about timing. On the other, several other concerns are less so now, especially with Piranha Plant being a confirmed example of a character picked for its uniqueness.

Also...at the risk of looking stupid, who is Diem again? Are they someone I've heard of?

-It could even be doubtful that Lycanroc is a bigger fan favorite, because I'll admit it, Smash has been a big help for Incineroar's popularity. People who wanted Grinch characters or Decidueye will still say the cat's a blast to play.

There seems to be a big split in opinion, from what I've seen. It seems like the majority of Incineroar's support base now is comprised of non-Pokémon fans--not all, but I've definitely noticed that a lot of people who've followed Gen 7 who have openly shown disappointment. I've been in conversations with people, had the topic turn to Pokémon for unrelated reasons, and had them say out of the blue that they wanted Decidueye or someone else. Hard to say what it means in the long run, but it really shows how divided opinions still are.

Meanwhile, we're almost in the opposite situation. We hardly get the time of day outside our home fandom, yet it seems like Lycanroc's popularity among Pokémon fans has been holding up. I swear, I stumble across people on social media in comments and such with Lycanroc avatars once a week, without even actively looking. And it's like a 33-33-33 split between the forms, no less. I even saw a guy in one of r/pokemon's weekly question threads the other day asking if the USUM Rockruff promo was still going, and if not, how to get their hands on one! And at AGDQ this year, one of the runners' couch supporters had a Rockruff hat on!

So there's definitely an audience, albeit one that doesn't get acknowledged much in Smash speculation. And if they designed a moveset that emphasized uniqueness well enough, you'd pick up even more support. At least, if #PlantGang is any precedent.

So some new episodes Sun and Moon anime have been shown for upcoming episodes along with a couple of new things that have happened already. So for anyone that wants to see how the anime is doing so far, here’s a quick summary.

Spoiler: In case you like to keep the anime a surprise.

Ep. 112: A New Speices has been discovered. I Got A Meltan!

Yep, after learning about the new Pokémon and stopping Team Rocket once again, Ash finally adds another Pokémon to his team. Meltan! Surprising but not completely unexpected. The episode has been just released by the way.

Ep. 113: The Magikarp King

The famous Magikarp King is a famous child actor in a popular tv-series. But, something seems to go wrong this time around. Looks like a filler episode.

Ep. 114: Ultra Beast Encounter! Pheromosa!

A new Ultra Beast has appeared in Alola, this time it’s Pheromosa takes the spotlight. Most likely a fight between Ash and her and they most likely will send her back to where she originally came from.

Ep. 115: Golisopod and Guzma!

FINALLY! Ya boy Guzma at last showed up in the anime. But this isn’t just a meet and greet, Ash is challenging Guzma to a Pokémon battle! I’m stoked for this one.

And that’s what we have so far. Looking into Ash’s potential fight with Guzma, I’m willing to bet Lycanroc will be used against Golisopod, seeing the trend of how these bigger types of battles have been involving Lycanroc recently. And also, aside from Pikachu and Lycanroc, all Ash has is a Rowlet, Torrocat, and just now a Meltan. C’mon Ash, we’re two years in and that’s all that was managed?

This anime run so far seemed to be slowest in terms of team build up.

The Alola anime keeps setting new trends, it seems. An legendary and an Ultra Beast as guest party members, a mythical following suit now, and a team ace that isn't a starter (though Ash's Krookodile in Unova was an ambiguous example, with how the Unova anime's plot got thrown off the rails by the irl earthquake). Who knows, maybe after all this time, Melmetal will be the one to fill the "big, burly guy" niche for Ash's Alola team.

There's also one more episode revealed beyond the one's you've listed. Apparently it'll be about Lillie and Gladion looking into why their dad disappeared.

 

[Garteam]

I think is going to ultimately be one of those characters that is much more well known for being a Smash icon than a mainstay in their home series, like , , or . There's also Incineroar's niche of fitting very well and becoming very used in VGC's extremely particular ruleset, although that's also another double-edged sword. He's seen a much greater increase in competitive usage, but there's often an appeal in seeing Pokemon that are used less in competitive. The Garbodors basically built his YouTube channel on the premise of "I'm going to use these weird, obscure Pokemon in the highest level of competitive Pokemon" and he's seen great success.

Remember when people thought that Lycanroc-Dusk would be OU? Good times.

Anyway, it's pretty interesting that Ash got a Meltan (his first steel type actually!). I wonder if Meltan will be like Aipom and he'll actually bring him on his Galdar journey, which would be interesting given the number of leaks which state Meltan will have important role in Sword/Shield.

 

[RandomAce]

Also...at the risk of looking stupid, who is Diem again? Are they someone I've heard of?

Diem is a smashboards regular who hangs out in the Ultimate Social Thread a lot and is an avid Dark Samus supporter.
Knows a lot about a Dark Samus. From time to time, he goes into a lot of detail on Dark Samus and maybe a couple of other stuffs. They’re very long, which is why I made the comparison (no hate to him though).

Meanwhile, we're almost in the opposite situation. We hardly get the time of day outside our home fandom, yet it seems like Lycanroc's popularity among Pokémon fans has been holding up. I swear, I stumble across people on social media in comments and such with Lycanroc avatars once a week, without even actively looking. And it's like a 33-33-33 split between the forms, no less. I even saw a guy in one of r/pokemon's weekly question threads the other day asking if the USUM Rockruff promo was still going, and if not, how to get their hands on one! And at AGDQ this year, one of the runners' couch supporters had a Rockruff hat on!

So there's definitely an audience, albeit one that doesn't get acknowledged much in Smash speculation. And if they designed a moveset that emphasized uniqueness well enough, you'd pick up even more support. At least, if #PlantGang is any precedent.

The Alola anime keeps setting new trends, it seems. An legendary and an Ultra Beast as guest party members, a mythical following suit now, and a team ace that isn't a starter (though Ash's Krookodile in Unova was an ambiguous example, with how the Unova anime's plot got thrown off the rails by the irl earthquake). Who knows, maybe after all this time, Melmetal will be the one to fill the "big, burly guy" niche for Ash's Alola team.

There's also one more episode revealed beyond the one's you've listed. Apparently it'll be about Lillie and Gladion looking into why their dad disappeared.

I forgot about that episode. Regardless, I’m willing to see how the rest of the year is going to turn out. Ash still has a long ways to go from the looks of it, and the anime seems to be flowing in a very different direction compared to previous entries.

I also want to catch up with a something WeirdChillFever did brought up about Lycanroc’s support. But we did have a big spring of support starting spring of last year. A lot of people then, did seriously begin to consider Lycanroc and was seen as one of the most likeliest Pokémon newcomers. However, I think what put a dent was when Vergeben came in disconfirming Lycanroc, and the belief that Gen 7 may not get another Pokémon.

I think if that didn’t happen, we may have been able to get bigger than where we are now. But that’s not to say what’s going on now isn’t respectable on it’s own already.

Remember when people thought that Lycanroc-Dusk would be OU? Good times.

Man, I wish Game Freak do give some sort of buff for Lycanroc in the upcoming games. Midday and Dusk seemed just a bit short of becoming pretty good Pokémon to more reliably use in a more competitive setting.

Midnight may need some more work though, but I think with the right adjustments to it’s overall stats, I can see it work in the way they originally enviousned Midnight. Maybe also give a different version of counter than just using regular counter with a benefit that allows Midnight to survive and deal back damage, similar to how Midday got a Rock Type quick attack sort of thing.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think is going to ultimately be one of those characters that is much more well known for being a Smash icon than a mainstay in their home series, like .

I just realized:

• Fire users
• Red hair to indicate this
• Ability to shoot fire at a distance is not shown in Smash
• Both could be a product of rushed development
• From a series that is considered evil among roster perfectionists
• While people who are bigger fans of Smash than their origin series find them fun, fans of their generation tend to have a few characters they'd like to see instead, including a much more popular character who is stuck in a support role (Lyn, Mimikyu)
• Associated with cats: Besides the obvious, Roy is "The Young Lion".

 

[Cosmic77]

I think is going to ultimately be one of those characters that is much more well known for being a Smash icon than a mainstay in their home series, like , , or . There's also Incineroar's niche of fitting very well and becoming very used in VGC's extremely particular ruleset, although that's also another double-edged sword. He's seen a much greater increase in competitive usage, but there's often an appeal in seeing Pokemon that are used less in competitive. The Garbodors basically built his YouTube channel on the premise of "I'm going to use these weird, obscure Pokemon in the highest level of competitive Pokemon" and he's seen great success.

This is why I don't like starters getting in Smash. Regardless of how popular you become, you're guaranteed to be cast aside when the new generation rolls around. There's just not much of a reason to keep promoting them when they're the posterchild of an old Gen. Even Greninja, a Pokemon that was once voted to be Japan's most popular Pokemon, is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Now I'm not saying Lycanroc would fare any better (though I guess I sorta am saying that), but aside from Charizard and the other Gen 1 starters, which starter Pokemon have been consistently advertised and promoted throughout the years? Maybe Blaziken, but that's about it.

Personally, I think Sakurai would find greater success going the Jigglypuff/Lucario route. It's arguably a riskier move, but at least there's that small chance the Pokemon doesn't fall into obscurity. With starters, I feel like that obscurity is inevitable.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Now I'm not saying Lycanroc would fare any better (though I guess I sorta am saying that)

It all depends on whether or not you can find wild Rockruff in Galar. Also, I don't think Lucario was risky at all.

 

[Garteam]

It all depends on whether or not you can find wild Rockruff in Galar. Also, I don't think Lucario was risky at all.

Lucario wasn't risky in the moment, as he was one of the most popular and pushed Pokemon in Gen 4, but he was a risk for future Smash games. There was no guarantee that Lucario would be popular post-Gen 4. Thankfully, Lucario stayed popular even after Gen 4. Heck, some people still didn't predict that Lucario would return in Smash for because they believed he was no longer popular enough.

 

[Cosmic77]

Lucario wasn't risky in the moment, as he was one of the most popular and pushed Pokemon in Gen 4, but he was a risk for future Smash games. There was no guarantee that Lucario would be popular post-Gen 4. Thankfully, Lucario stayed popular even after Gen 4. Heck, some people still didn't predict that Lucario would return in Smash for because they believed he was no longer popular enough.

Kinda restating what you already said, but Lucario sure felt like a risky Pokemon at the time. Yeah, he was popular and got his own movie, but he was also brand new. There was no guarantee that his popularity would stick, and many considered him to be an oddball choice.

If memory serves me correct, it wasn't until late in Gen 5's lifespan before GameFreak realized Lucario's potential and started plastering him on everything. Before that, he had kinda disappeared like most of Gen 4's other popular Pokemon.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If memory serves me correct, it wasn't until late in Gen 5's lifespan before GameFreak realized Lucario's potential and started plastering him on everything. Before that, he had kinda disappeared like most of Gen 4's other popular Pokemon.

Well, Zoroark was trying to be Lucario 2.0, but failed because it was hard to get in BW1. 2 fixed that, but also let you get Riolu early in the game, paving the way for things like Mega Lucario.

 

[MasteRMerF]

Lucario wasn't risky in the moment, as he was one of the most popular and pushed Pokemon in Gen 4, but he was a risk for future Smash games. There was no guarantee that Lucario would be popular post-Gen 4. Thankfully, Lucario stayed popular even after Gen 4. Heck, some people still didn't predict that Lucario would return in Smash for because they believed he was no longer popular enough.

I can honestly say Lucario getting announced for Smash 4 was one of the biggest surprises for me. Being my main in Brawl, I was certain he was going to be replaced with a newer Pokemon rep.

 

[Delzethin]

Lucario wasn't risky in the moment, as he was one of the most popular and pushed Pokemon in Gen 4, but he was a risk for future Smash games. There was no guarantee that Lucario would be popular post-Gen 4. Thankfully, Lucario stayed popular even after Gen 4. Heck, some people still didn't predict that Lucario would return in Smash for because they believed he was no longer popular enough.

Well, popularity as an argument for sticking around has never been that simple anyway, but I don't think many seriously thought Lucario wasn't popular anymore, haha. The more common argument I saw was that Mewtwo would "take his slot back". There was a belief back then that the big franchises' "representation" would be their first major characters + one newer one that'd rotate out with each game, based on the belief that the old guard was inherently more important due to seniority. There were similar arguments that Toon Link and Ike would be gone!

If memory serves me correct, it wasn't until late in Gen 5's lifespan before GameFreak realized Lucario's potential and started plastering him on everything. Before that, he had kinda disappeared like most of Gen 4's other popular Pokemon.

Well, that was more a result of the first Gen 5 games having nothing from previous generations until the postgame. As soon as BW2 came along, you could get a Riolu super early.

Kind of like how USUM has Zorua available in the early game, now that I think about it.

Not to say Zoroark isn't still well liked, it's just not on the level of Lucario, and being event-exclusive for the first couple years of its debut generation likely played a part in that. Still enough for a lot of people to care about it--in fact, one fan poll from a couple years ago asking who people were hoping to get into Pokkén as DLC saw Zoroark take 2nd place, behind only Greninja! And for all we know, it may have been timing that took Zoroark out of the running for Smash 4, even.

Hopefully we can hold steady in the long term as well. For what it's worth, that same Pokkén poll had Lycanroc tie for 8th, and that was before the Dusk form was a thing.

 

[RandomAce]

So... It’s been a while. Seeing how this place has gotten quiet, let’s start off something new.

Is there anything you guys want to see/predict to see in a potential Lycanroc smash moveset? It can be any single move, gimmick, playstyle, how you see Accelerock or Counter look like, etc.

 

[GlaceonGD]

View attachment 198883
So... It’s been a while. Seeing how this place has gotten quiet, let’s start off something new.

Is there anything you guys want to see/predict to see in a potential Lycanroc smash moveset? It can be any single move, gimmick, playstyle, how you see Accelerock or Counter look like, etc.

I feel like stone edge is a necessity for a lycanroc moveset, as it's the move that's used for splintered stormshards which would likely be the final smash. How it would work I'm not quite sure, but I've thought of a way the final smash could trigger. When you trigger your final smash, a medium sized stone outcrop (like the one lycanroc stands on in the move cinematic) would jut forward a small distance with lycanroc standing on top of it howling, and if it hits another player the rest of the cinematic would play albeit slightly edited, similar to how incineroar's final smash was changed a bit from the source material too. Apart from that I don't have many other ideas, as lycanroc isn't the character I've spent much time thinking of a moveset for.

 

[Garteam]

View attachment 198883
So... It’s been a while. Seeing how this place has gotten quiet, let’s start off something new.

Is there anything you guys want to see/predict to see in a potential Lycanroc smash moveset? It can be any single move, gimmick, playstyle, how you see Accelerock or Counter look like, etc.

This is the way I see Lycanroc's special moves going:
Neutral - Accelerock, a chargeable move that (when released) sends Lycanroc shooting forward in a straight line with a hit box.
Side - Stealth Rock, Lycanroc shots a jagged stone which floats slightly above the ground, damaging anyone who touches it.
Up - Rock Tomb, Lycanroc produces a large boulder beneath him, which he then jumps off to gain height. If used in the air, the rock is pushed down, damaging those who touch it.
Down - Counter, Lycanroc rebuffs the opponent's hit using its large fur, which then sends them flying at 45 degree angle.

 

[Cosmic77]

Sharing this from the Ultimate Social Thread.

Spoiler: Possible Gen 8 Starters' Final Evolutions

If this is real, then the fire starter would likely go to Ash (becoming the most prominent starter in the process), and the other two could possibly belong to someone else.

I don't want to assume anything, but I feel like the odds of Sakurai choosing another fire-type starter are pretty slim. I won't rule out the Sobble evo getting in if Ash catches one in addition to Scorbunny, but I feel like a second water-type starter would also be unlikely.

I'm not even picturing a scenario where the Grookey evo gets chosen because that's just too awful to imagine.

 

[Guynamednelson]

We all know Sakurai won't pick a grass starter just to have one, and it's certainly not gonna be that one.

 

[RileyXY1]

Sharing this from the Ultimate Social Thread.

Spoiler: Possible Gen 8 Starters' Final Evolutions

If this is real, then the fire starter would likely go to Ash (becoming the most prominent starter in the process), and the other two could possibly belong to someone else.

I don't want to assume anything, but I feel like the odds of Sakurai choosing another fire-type starter are pretty slim. I won't rule out the Sobble evo getting in if Ash catches one in addition to Scorbunny, but I feel like a second water-type starter would also be unlikely.

I'm not even picturing a scenario where the Grookey evo gets chosen because that's just too awful to imagine.

Those leaked final evolutions were confirmed fake.

 

[LukeRNG]

Given that it's been a while since the reveal of gen 8, what are your thoughts on the new starters.
I've been completely won over by Sobble and it's immense potential for an amazing evolution. Grookey is probably my second option.

I must say i like the potential of the Galar region having certain areas being open fields, like the area with the lakes.

 

[Cosmic77]

Those leaked final evolutions were confirmed fake.

A shame too, because I actually liked the first two. Kinda worried the real evolutions will look worse.

Given that it's been a while since the reveal of gen 8, what are your thoughts on the new starters.
I've been completely won over by Sobble and it's immense potential for an amazing evolution. Grookey is probably my second option.

I must say i like the potential of the Galar region having certain areas being open fields, like the area with the lakes.

Personally, I feel like all three are a step back from the Alolan starters, but they aren't awful.

Scorbunny looks decent enough. Sobble is a Pokemon I'd have to see in it's later stages; it has potential, but I know they could easily ruin it. Not a fan of Grookey at all though. Maybe I'll come to love it when I see it evolve, but for now, I think it has one of the worst designs of all the grass type starters.

 

[Delzethin]

Apologies for disappearing like that. I've spent the last several days struck with what I suspect is another bout of the flu.

...I wanted to have a sad reaction image here, but I can't find the one I was thinking of for the life of me.

So... It’s been a while. Seeing how this place has gotten quiet, let’s start off something new.

Is there anything you guys want to see/predict to see in a potential Lycanroc smash moveset? It can be any single move, gimmick, playstyle, how you see Accelerock or Counter look like, etc.

I've been championing Stealth Rock as a special for a few years now, haha. Having a fast, punish-based character that can also set a trap down to control part of the stage or throw people into at low percents to confirm into stuff would add an extra dimension that we haven't seen characters of that playstyle do before.

Sharing this from the Ultimate Social Thread.

Spoiler: Possible Gen 8 Starters' Final Evolutions

If this is real, then the fire starter would likely go to Ash (becoming the most prominent starter in the process), and the other two could possibly belong to someone else.

I don't want to assume anything, but I feel like the odds of Sakurai choosing another fire-type starter are pretty slim. I won't rule out the Sobble evo getting in if Ash catches one in addition to Scorbunny, but I feel like a second water-type starter would also be unlikely.

I'm not even picturing a scenario where the Grookey evo gets chosen because that's just too awful to imagine.

Yeah, I'm not buying those, with how-

Those leaked final evolutions were confirmed fake.

...Well, there we go, haha.

The thing that had me skeptical is how...I dunno, basic they seem? I wouldn't call them bland, per se, but modern starters are much more thematically intricate in a way that most fan mockups/fake leaks aren't able to manage. Case in point, the Sobble evo falls under the typical "just make it look bigger and tougher" angle that was more prevalent in early generations, the Scorbunny evo has a basic lightning motif haphazardly thrown on with little extra going on (unless those egg looking things are supposed to be an Easter Bunny thing, which just feels out of left field), et cetera.

 

[RandomAce]

Given that it's been a while since the reveal of gen 8, what are your thoughts on the new starters.
I've been completely won over by Sobble and it's immense potential for an amazing evolution. Grookey is probably my second option.

I must say i like the potential of the Galar region having certain areas being open fields, like the area with the lakes.

Sobble looks the most interesting so far, but that’s still a bit far from like.

I don’t like any of them tbh. They all give me a vibe of “Why does ____ remind of ____”, and look a bit “too basic”. It’s a step down from Gen 7 in my opinion. The starters in Gen 7 had a sense of personality sort of built in that made them appealing and work together. Here, I don’t know, I just see “fast bunny” and “green monkey” pop up way to much in my head.

Sharing this from the Ultimate Social Thread.

Spoiler: Possible Gen 8 Starters' Final Evolutions

If this is real, then the fire starter would likely go to Ash (becoming the most prominent starter in the process), and the other two could possibly belong to someone else.

I don't want to assume anything, but I feel like the odds of Sakurai choosing another fire-type starter are pretty slim. I won't rule out the Sobble evo getting in if Ash catches one in addition to Scorbunny, but I feel like a second water-type starter would also be unlikely.

I'm not even picturing a scenario where the Grookey evo gets chosen because that's just too awful to imagine.

The one I really liked was Sobble’s final evo. It has that mesh of cool and cute. I wish that came true. Also gives me a bit of Greninja vibes.

I’m hoping Sobble becomes similar to that. I think Sobble has the most potential to have a cool final evolution.

 

[Garteam]

Regarding final evolutions, what themes would you guys like to see the final starters have?

I really liked the pseudo-international theme they had with the Sinnoh starters (Torterra representing North America by being the World Turtle, Infernape representing Asia by being Sun Wukong, and Empoleon representing Europe by being Napoleon), so I wouldn't mind if they brought that idea back (this time focusing on the contients that didn't get reps in Gen 4?).

I'm also a fan of the Sports theme that many speculate the starters will have, that could be really fun and leave a lot of room for some ideas (having a starter based around fencing, or a starter perhaps even based around equestrian sports?).

I've also seen the idea of a cowboy theme for one of the starters, but that could be pretty strange given the European setting. Likewise, I'd rather see the starters have a cohesive theme rather than having disconnected themes like in Alola.

 

[Cosmic77]

Regarding final evolutions, what themes would you guys like to see the final starters have?

I really liked the pseudo-international theme they had with the Sinnoh starters (Torterra representing North America by being the World Turtle, Infernape representing Asia by being Sun Wukong, and Empoleon representing Europe by being Napoleon), so I wouldn't mind if they brought that idea back (this time focusing on the contients that didn't get reps in Gen 4?).

I'm also a fan of the Sports theme that many speculate the starters will have, that could be really fun and leave a lot of room for some ideas (having a starter based around fencing, or a starter perhaps even based around equestrian sports?).

I've also seen the idea of a cowboy theme for one of the starters, but that could be pretty strange given the European setting. Likewise, I'd rather see the starters have a cohesive theme rather than having disconnected themes like in Alola.

I'd really prefer we go back to basic designs when we didn't have a theme. Incineroar and Greninja are cool and all, but they kinda make Pokémon feel more cartoony. There's just something about Charizard and Sceptile's simple designs that I really enjoy.

 

[Kirby97]

Really Caleb?

 

[RandomAce]

I'd really prefer we go back to basic designs when we didn't have a theme. Incineroar and Greninja are cool and all, but they kinda make Pokémon feel more cartoony. There's just something about Charizard and Sceptile's simple designs that I really enjoy.

The three Pokémon that I think really took off with the whole theme thing were Decidueye, Greninja, and also Primerina. They all excellently used their concepts and had cool designs that worked well.

I think this is where Delphox and Incineroar missed the mark. They had these ideas of Mage and Wrestler they wanted that they wanted to use, but weren’t sure how to incorporate that theme into their designs, and as a a result looks like they just gave them them a human body and added a head and tail and called it a day. Incineroar makes it worse, since it’s prior evolutions didn’t give any indication that Incineroar was gonna be a wrestler (which is why first reactions to Incineroar were negative) where Braixen gave something people would expect and also was pretty well received.

Oh, and then there’s Chespin’s final evo. It’s okay, I don’t know much about it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think this is where Delphox and Incineroar missed the mark. They had these ideas of Mage and Wrestler they wanted that they had to use, but weren’t sure how to incorporate that theme into their designs, so they ended up giving them them a human body and sticking a head and tail and called it a day.

I blame people complaining about Oshawott going from a bipedal otter to a quadrupedal sea lion for this. But hey, at least in all its stages, it's a melee weapon-using sea mammal.

 

[Luigifan18]

Regarding final evolutions, what themes would you guys like to see the final starters have?

I really liked the pseudo-international theme they had with the Sinnoh starters (Torterra representing North America by being the World Turtle, Infernape representing Asia by being Sun Wukong, and Empoleon representing Europe by being Napoleon), so I wouldn't mind if they brought that idea back (this time focusing on the contients that didn't get reps in Gen 4?).

I'm also a fan of the Sports theme that many speculate the starters will have, that could be really fun and leave a lot of room for some ideas (having a starter based around fencing, or a starter perhaps even based around equestrian sports?).

I've also seen the idea of a cowboy theme for one of the starters, but that could be pretty strange given the European setting. Likewise, I'd rather see the starters have a cohesive theme rather than having disconnected themes like in Alola.

Hang on, didn't Gen 5 also do an empires theme with its starters? The Snivy line represents French royalty, the Tepig line is Journey to the West-mon 2.0 (Zhu Baije instead of Son Goku), and the Oshawott line represents feudal Japan.

The three Pokémon that I think really took off with the whole theme thing were Decidueye and Greninja, and Primerina. They all excellently used their concepts and had cool designs that worked well.

I think this is where Delphox and Incineroar missed the mark. They had these ideas of Mage and Wrestler they wanted that they had to use, but weren’t sure how to incorporate that theme into their designs, and as a a result looks like they just gave them them a human body and added a head and tail and called it a day. Incineroar makes it worse, since it’s prior evolutions didn’t give any indication that Incineroar was gonna be a wrestler where Braixen gave something people would expect and also was pretty well received.

Oh, and then there’s Chespin’s final evo. It’s okay, I don’t know much about it.

Chesnaught is, well... a big, bulky, armored hedgehog with anchor arms that can shrug off bombs. As for Delphox, I like foxes, so I wanted to like Delphox, but giving a mage-based Pokémon a ridiculously shallow movepool is just embarrassing. Aren't mages supposed to be versatile? No comment on Incineroar, I prefer the archer owl.

I blame people complaining about Oshawott going from a bipedal otter to a quadrupedal sea lion for this. But hey, at least in all its stages, it's a melee weapon-using sea mammal.

I actually like Samurott, so sue me.