Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

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Generic wolves or not, if that one leak is real about everyone on it, then there COULD be Armored Evolutions for the Lycanrocs (probably only the original two since Dusk is supposed to be a "special snowflake" in itself).
 

LukeRNG

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Well, now i feel silly for calling Sobble a snail.
But just like previous generations it took me time to like them and honestly, i'm having a hard time choosing one.
As of now i might be team Sobble but by just an inch.
I'm sure that Gamefreak still need work with handling the switch given that they've been used to handhelds for so long and they might've started developing Sword and Shield since late 2016 or in 2017. Which is why i didn't expect too much of a change in a visual standpoint or how ''linear'' the region looks. Gen 9 will be the real drastic change. But they sure made the game look amazing with the cellshading.

Also, we reached 50 pages!
 
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Delzethin

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It is interesting that the logos have heraldic wolf heads, if only because it could tie into the cover legendaries or even the region as a whole. I've seen speculation that maybe legendaries based on Skoll and Hati, from Norse mythology, may be in play here. Perhaps we're dealing with sibling gods who championed opposing kingdoms in the past, kingdoms that would later reach a truce and unite into the region we know know.

...Wait, is this Galar or Valentia?

Either way, it's probably not relevant for us in particular, but it'd be a victory for wolf 'mons as a whole.

I'm not sure whether I buy into that rumor of Armored Forms yet. People have been guessing we were getting a UK region for a few months now, and fake leaks have followed suit. Sword and Shield aren't too surprising to where they couldn't have been guessed, especially since a knight motif fits a UK-based region so well. I think we need more evidence in that rumor's favor before we can believe it, to be on the safe side.

Wouldn't it be wild if they gave Lycanroc something new here, though? Maybe something crazy like it turning out that the line's actually native to Galar since wolves and werewolf myths are more of a European thing? That they were transplanted to Alola via explorers in the past, and the ones who aren't exposed to Solgaleo or Lunala's energy can take on a different, "true" form?

Don't mind me, just baselessly spitballing, heh. Nothing serious.
 
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Garteam

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Generic wolves or not, if that one leak is real about everyone on it, then there COULD be Armored Evolutions for the Lycanrocs (probably only the original two since Dusk is supposed to be a "special snowflake" in itself).
I think if Lycanroc does get an Armoured Form/Mega Evolution/Fancy Hat, I think it'll only go to the Dusk form. It's pretty clear that it's the one that Game Freak are particularly partial to. Plus, it may be easier to design one armour set than three. Granted, this would also mean there would need to be a way to obtain Dusk Lycanroc in game, unless Game Freak wants to get really scummy and lock content behind an event from 2 years ago.
 

Luigifan18

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It is interesting that the logos have heraldic wolf heads, if only because it could tie into the cover legendaries or even the region as a whole. I've seen speculation that maybe legendaries based on Skoll and Hati, from Norse mythology, may be in play here. Perhaps we're dealing with sibling gods who championed opposing kingdoms in the past, kingdoms that would later reach a truce and unite into the region we know know.

...Wait, is this Galar or Valentia?

Either way, it's probably not relevant for us in particular, but it'd be a victory for wolf 'mons as a whole.

I'm not sure whether I buy into that rumor of Armored Forms yet. People have been guessing we were getting a UK region for a few months now, and fake leaks have followed suit. Sword and Shield aren't too surprising to where they couldn't have been guessed, especially since a knight motif fits a UK-based region so well. I think we need more evidence in that rumor's favor before we can believe it, to be on the safe side.

Wouldn't it be wild if they gave Lycanroc something new here, though? Maybe something crazy like it turning out that the line's actually native to Galar since wolves and werewolf myths are more of a European thing? That they were transplanted to Alola via explorers in the past, and the ones who aren't exposed to Solgaleo or Lunala's energy can take on a different, "true" form?

Don't mind me, just baselessly spitballing, heh. Nothing serious.
Norse mythology legends, eh? We already got some of those — Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde are all based on inhabitants of Yggdrasil. (Xerneas is Odin's stags who live at the base of the tree (yes, there's four of them), Yveltal is the eagle who nests at the top, and Zygarde is the serpent Nidhogg, who dwells beneath the roots. Ratatoskr the squirrel is strangely absent, though... really, they missed a golden opportunity for a Mythical squirrel Pokémon with a W-shaped tail.)
 

RandomAce

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Ayyy 50 pages! Another milestone for us. I'm happy this thread still managed to stay alive so far.

It is interesting that the logos have heraldic wolf heads, if only because it could tie into the cover legendaries or even the region as a whole. I've seen speculation that maybe legendaries based on Skoll and Hati, from Norse mythology, may be in play here. Perhaps we're dealing with sibling gods who championed opposing kingdoms in the past, kingdoms that would later reach a truce and unite into the region we know know.

...Wait, is this Galar or Valentia?

Either way, it's probably not relevant for us in particular, but it'd be a victory for wolf 'mons as a whole.

I'm not sure whether I buy into that rumor of Armored Forms yet. People have been guessing we were getting a UK region for a few months now, and fake leaks have followed suit. Sword and Shield aren't too surprising to where they couldn't have been guessed, especially since a knight motif fits a UK-based region so well. I think we need more evidence in that rumor's favor before we can believe it, to be on the safe side.

Wouldn't it be wild if they gave Lycanroc something new here, though? Maybe something crazy like it turning out that the line's actually native to Galar since wolves and werewolf myths are more of a European thing? That they were transplanted to Alola via explorers in the past, and the ones who aren't exposed to Solgaleo or Lunala's energy can take on a different, "true" form?

Don't mind me, just baselessly spitballing, heh. Nothing serious.
I think Midday fits the whole "true" form of Lycanorc. It's a more "natural" evolution of Rockruff, being a more natural down to earth wolf and a similar color scheme to Rockruff, where as Midnight is vastly different mostly due to being exposed to Lunala's energy and Dusk inherets both. Sure, the idea of a new form seems interesting, but I think the three we have would still make sense and would still work in Galar.

But I could still see the idea of Lycanroc being originally from Galar and then through time were transported to Alola. I think a large aspect of Alola was how several pokemon were transported to the region, thus the Alolan forms, and as said before, it would make sense if Lycanroc were originally from a Europe based region.
 
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Cosmic77

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It wouldn't surprise me if we get another new wolf Pokémon. Seems like GameFreak has a habit of pushing canines, and I think it's more likely for them to make something from scratch rather than reusing a Pokémon from the previous Gen.
 

RandomAce

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It wouldn't surprise me if we get another new wolf Pokémon. Seems like GameFreak has a habit of pushing canines, and I think it's more likely for them to make something from scratch rather than reusing a Pokémon from the previous Gen.
That’s true, but we do see GameFreak reuse older Pokémon from time to time, so the same could hold true for Lycanroc.

Maybe we could get both a new wolf Pokémon and Lycanroc is still used. Maybe both are involved in the same thing, where Lycanroc is used to help push whatever they’re planning seeing how it’s a more familiar popular Pokémon. Or Lycanroc could simply be used with the new things like evolutions, Z Moves, or whatever they may be doing for Sword and Slash. Or Lycanroc doesn’t get used at all... hopefully not.

There are multiple different possibilities and ways Game Freak could take with Lycanroc. Let’s just hope that Lycanroc can stand the test of time and be an ongoing popular mon for multiple generations going forward.


There were no pitchforks with Smash 4 DLC, there were no pitchforks when Smash Ultimate was announced and there were no pitchforks with the leaks nor Incineroar's reveal. The world is not out to get you and your doomsday army metaphor has rarely held up, if at all
I know this may be considered double posting, and I don't want to start a flame war but I do want to want to get this off my chest.

I kinda disagree with this, and I can see why he feels like this, and it has to do with how negative it can be whenever Delz brings up Lycanroc, or when someone mentions Lycanroc recently. Sure, there were times where people were rational and stated why they don't think they have a strong chance, but there were other times where people keep bringing up how he sounded vile against a character on a video that was what, 5 months ago? and how he is flat out biased with Lycanroc in his prediction video even though he put him as one of the characters that were conditional, being akin to having some of the least chances due to them being circumstantial. I can see why some people may think that, but I've seen that some people end up honing on that and it gets annoying.

It's one of the main reasons why I barely talk about Lycanroc outside of this thread, becuase I feel that I may get eye rolled if I mentioned why I think Lycanroc has a shot and even be called biased or have the thread get into a spiteful fit over it. I know Gen 8 exists, but I'm worried that it's what makes people not hear me out.

I wish I didn't have to feel that way about it, but I do.
 
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I know this may be considered double posting, and I don't want to start a flame war but I do want to want to get this off my chest.

I kinda disagree with this, and I can see why he feels like this, and it has to do with how negative it can be whenever Delz brings up Lycanroc, or when someone mentions Lycanroc recently. Sure, there were times where people were rational and stated why they don't think they have a strong chance, but there were other times where people keep bringing up how he sounded vile against a character on a video that was what, 5 months ago? and how he is flat out biased with Lycanroc in his prediction video even though he put him as one of the characters that were conditional, being akin to having some of the least chances due to them being circumstantial. I can see why some people may think that, but I've seen that it kinda goes a bit too far and turns to ****.

It's one of the main reasons why I barely talk about Lycanroc outside of this thread, becuase I feel that I may get eye rolled if I mentioned why I think Lycanroc has a shot and even be called biased or have the thread get into a spiteful fit over it. I know Gen 8 exists, but I'm worried that it's what makes people not hear me out.

I wish I didn't have to feel that way about it, but I do.
Sadly, I think this is a symptom of the Smash community as a whole. Lycanroc in specific is far from the only character that invokes strong reactions one way or another. Not everyone is in the Smash community to have rational debate, and ill-informed opinions is far from the worst the Smash community has to offer.

Compared to the frontrunners omitted from the video, it's hard to believe bias didn't play a part. That's not a bad thing imo, and Delzethin is free to include in his content who he wants, but I can see why it invokes reaction, and with the toxicity that's present in the Smash community there's bound to be reactions that take it too far.

And feel free to talk about Lycanroc. Being called "biased" or a "wishful thinker" is far from the worst. There's a lot of choices and only so little space om the Fighter Pass, so in a way, everybody is the underdog here.
And I think that's what bothers me with Delzethin's post. The toxicity in the Smash community doesn't target Lycanroc specifically and the notion that people in a thread discussing their choice and occasionally outside it would make the whole Smash community scream sacrilege when it comes to Lycanroc specifically sounds almost egocentric, as if Lycanroc is still on the minds of everyone as a common enemy
 

Lionel_B

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Interesting to see that this topic is still active. Where then, it's just because of the Wolf of the Sword and Shield logos. xD

I wanted Decidueye, but Lycanroc would not have bothered me, in any case, I would have preferred Lycanroc a thousand times to Incineroar. And even if hope makes me live, I have the feeling that it's useless. Characters like Isaac, Bandana Dee, Waluigi will continue, but I'm afraid we will no longer ask for pokemon like Decidueye or Lycanroc in 10 years...
 

Guynamednelson

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Interesting to see that this topic is still active. Where then, it's just because of the Wolf of the Sword and Shield logos. xD
It's not just that.
  • Thinking Lycanroc would've been a better choice in terms of popularity, marketing, and moveset potential
  • Wondering if theories about spirits deconfirming and Duck Hunt being used as the base for a DLC fighter mean anything
  • Noticing how the game is set up for DLC for another Gen 7 Pokemon by not having an Alola stage or any music from USUM
I feel sorry for the Decidueye thread, despite not really wanting it. Decidueye fans too can benefit from my final bullet point, alongside the idea that spirits deconfirm and Sakurai mentioning it in an interview.
 

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Pokemon speculation this go around has been pretty toxic for Ultimate speculation. In Brawl, everyone was kind of on-board with the idea that Lucario was made to be the new Pokemon rep. Likewise in Smash for, basically everyone accepted that Mewtwo returning was the most likely Gen 6 rep, so there was a little bit of tension after Greninja was revealed but it quickly subsided once Mewtwo was confirmed for DLC. In this game? We had at least 4 major camps this time around (Decidueye, Lycanroc, Mimikyu, and Incineroar) so it's felt like there's been a level of fighting among supporters. This only became exacerbated once Vergeben put his support behind Incineroar, where tensions rose even more and certain people saw this as a good opportunity to explain why their character was best and the others could go suck an egg.

I think leftover sentiments from this period of speculation is why there's a section of the fanbase that gets offensive whenever Lycanroc is brought up, as some still see it as a veiled attack against the other Pokemon reps. However, this is something I think the fanbase really needs to get over (and I've seen some bits and pieces of this behaviour in our own camp, so we're not exactly innocent of this either). Lycanroc and Incineroar can co-exist, and support for one is not an attack on the other.
 

Cosmic77

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Pokemon speculation this go around has been pretty toxic for Ultimate speculation. In Brawl, everyone was kind of on-board with the idea that Lucario was made to be the new Pokemon rep.
Actually, I don't remember Lucario ever being considered an obvious choice back in Brawl. No one had really picked up a pattern on Pokemon newcomers yet, and once PT was revealed, most people gave up on a second (or rather fourth) Pokemon. His leaked reveal took a lot of people by surprise.
 

Delzethin

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I know this may be considered double posting, and I don't want to start a flame war but I do want to want to get this off my chest.

I kinda disagree with this, and I can see why he feels like this, and it has to do with how negative it can be whenever Delz brings up Lycanroc, or when someone mentions Lycanroc recently. Sure, there were times where people were rational and stated why they don't think they have a strong chance, but there were other times where people keep bringing up how he sounded vile against a character on a video that was what, 5 months ago? and how he is flat out biased with Lycanroc in his prediction video even though he put him as one of the characters that were conditional, being akin to having some of the least chances due to them being circumstantial. I can see why some people may think that, but I've seen that it kinda goes a bit too far and turns to ****.

It's one of the main reasons why I barely talk about Lycanroc outside of this thread, becuase I feel that I may get eye rolled if I mentioned why I think Lycanroc has a shot and even be called biased or have the thread get into a spiteful fit over it. I know Gen 8 exists, but I'm worried that it's what makes people not hear me out.

I wish I didn't have to feel that way about it, but I do.
Hey, thanks.

It's not easy running the ship, so to speak. Being the face of something opens you up to a lot of scrutiny, especially if you're advocating for something that isn't so commonly discussed. We all have our high points and low points, our shining moments and stupid mistakes, but when there's spotlight on you, it all gets magnified.

Especially in the Smash community, where it seems your reputation hinges on your results. What idea you present or what questions you bring up, often, matter less than whether you were right last time. It's like our obsession with tier lists has bled over into character speculation! And so you get people trying to assert their spot on the social totem pole, often by attacking others who are wounded or vulnerable. Unpopular opinions, undesired or "undeserving" characters, even people who don't main high or top tiers can wind up with targets on their backs at times.

It's why I'm so protective of you guys; I don't want you to have to endure the full force of attacks that should never reach such a point yet occasionally do nonetheless. I get too defensive sometimes, and it's something I'm trying to work on, but damn it, I'd seen it all before. I don't know if anyone here followed Smash 4 speculation, but for a span of about a month and a half after E3 2014, everyone who supported Robin here started getting attacked simply for doing so. People had jumped on the bandwagon of the Gematsu leaks, declared Chrom the Only Possible Option, and looked for holdouts and skeptics to attack to satiate their newfound feeling of righteousness. People were dropping into the Robin thread just to gawk at us for "denying the truth", and weren't held accountable because the overall community believed they were "right". Even a few staff members got in on it, shutting down talk in the general thread, on grounds of "Robin isn't happening, stop talking about them, you're all in denial". Now, I'm not saying every Chrom supporter or Gematsu believer acted that way--in fact, we got along pretty well with the Chrom thread mainstays--but the problem was the people who'd jumped on board late just so they could be right, and how they were given free reign because people had thought they'd "won".

Even though Robin made it after all, even though those would-be zealots got their comeuppance...I still remember the weeks before then. I suppose they've left scars that were reopened for a while last year. No one said this was easy, especially when, at times, it can feel like some are waiting for you, for anyone to be "wrong" so they have someone to attack.

I can't let that happen again. Hopefully it never does. But it's veered close at times, and right now character speculation on the boards is at a point where suggesting anything that doesn't follow popular talk carries a chance of putting a target on your back simply for not conforming...and there's something wrong with that.

Actually, I don't remember Lucario ever being considered an obvious choice back in Brawl. No one had really picked up a pattern on Pokemon newcomers yet, and once PT was revealed, most people gave up on a second (or rather fourth) Pokemon. His leaked reveal took a lot of people by surprise.
I saw a Lucario pop up quite a bit in people's roster guesses back then. Though once Pokémon Trainer was revealed, those numbers did fall off. I don't remember if any arguments took place of whether one was "more deserving" than the other.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I know Gen 8 exists, but I'm worried that it's what makes people not hear me out.
I think it has more to do with how one non-Kanto gen has never had multiple reps before. Even though the same could be said about Young and Toon Link coexisting, third-party series having multiple reps, third-party series having ATs but not fighters...

And of course, the desire to either not have another Pokemon on the roster or have it be another starter.
 
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Cosmic77

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I think it has more to do with how one non-Kanto gen has never had multiple reps before. Even though the same could be said about Young and Toon Link coexisting, third-party series having multiple reps, third-party series having ATs but not fighters...

And of course, the desire to either not have another Pokemon on the roster or have it be another starter.
Personally, I don't see a difference between Awakening getting three characters and S/M getting two. It really doesn't make sense how someone can defend one and not the other. If anything, a second S/M Pokemon should be less contoversial since Pokemon are carried over into future Gens, whereas FE characters are cast aside to spin-offs and random DLC that has no impact on the main game.
 

Guynamednelson

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Personally, I don't see a difference between Awakening getting three characters and S/M getting two. It really doesn't make sense how someone can defend one and not the other. If anything, a second S/M Pokemon should be less contoversial since Pokemon are carried over into future Gens, whereas FE characters are cast aside to spin-offs and random DLC that has no impact on the main game.
Not to mention, one single Zelda game always has multiple reps. Even in this game where they try to diversify where the character designs besides Toon Link come from, 2 come from BotW and 2 from OoT. Hell despite Sheik's design coming from BotW I'd say OoT has 3 reps.
 
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osby

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Personally, I don't see a difference between Awakening getting three characters and S/M getting two. It really doesn't make sense how someone can defend one and not the other. If anything, a second S/M Pokemon should be less contoversial since Pokemon are carried over into future Gens, whereas FE characters are cast aside to spin-offs and random DLC that has no impact on the main game.
2/3 of those characters were echoes.
 

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Personally, I don't see a difference between Awakening getting three characters and S/M getting two. It really doesn't make sense how someone can defend one and not the other. If anything, a second S/M Pokemon should be less contoversial since Pokemon are carried over into future Gens, whereas FE characters are cast aside to spin-offs and random DLC that has no impact on the main game.
For what it's worth, it seems to be the same crowd up in arms about both ideas, the types who believe that each franchise's worth is judged by how many "reps" it has on the roster. A lot of people lost interest in Pokémon after the '90s once it was no longer a fad, and others deliberately cut ties out of fear of being called childish, and so those types often think the series shouldn't be allowed to have more attention. Something similar happens with Fire Emblem, a franchise that only recently got big, one that some people believe shouldn't get to be placed on the same level as others from their childhoods.

It's all built on the idea that reputation is zero-sum, that one series becoming more prominent somehow takes away from others. Leads to a handful of speculators trying to arbitrate who should be allowed in based on "deservedness", often out of fear or stress.

Stress can lead you to do some really dumb and irrational things. I am no exception, either.

And of course, the desire to either not have another Pokemon on the roster or have it be another starter.
That's another thing that still weighs on me: It seems that the main reason so many haven't even bothered to ever take us seriously is because...Lycanroc doesn't have the right status. Seems like the greater Smash community thinks that to get into Smash, you have to either be a starter or be "popular enough" among speculators--lot of whom don't follow Pokémon closely--to think you "deserve" to get in. I think this is why so much of our talk of Lycanroc's sheer uniqueness or how Ash's team MVP in the anime right now is one just...falls on deaf ears. Lycanroc is not a starter and wasn't commonly talked about by people outside the Pokémon fanbase right away, and so it makes it really difficult to be taken seriously.

Especially now that our absence so far is seen as proof we were "undeserving", because the Smash community puts so much emphasis on results to an unhealthy extent. As well as since so many have decided a Gen 8 starter must be getting in ASAP in order to advertise the new games, despite things under the surface not being so clear-cut.

It just...stings, feeling like we're on the wrong end of a double standard. Excluded, locked outside and stuck looking in, few even interested in sparing a moment to hear us out. I think we've all been feeling that lately, and I don't know what can be done about it.

I feel so...powerless.
 
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It doesn't help that Pokémon in Smash feels like a neccesary evil to most people. How much speculation and hype do you see for a specific Pokémon? Many rosters I've seen have put on "The Gen VII Pokémon" as a blank roster spot because they didn't do the research. For Lycanroc supporters, that feels frustrating, but I can't blame them. Pokémon speculation is a different beast entirely and you can't blame people for simply not caring.

Much like "The FE lord" and "The retro", it's a subcategory of speculation, a rabbit hole of its own but one that seems to return every game, hence a neccesary evil.

Lycanroc might fall on deaf ears now, but so does everyone that isn't obvious. And that's fine. It's hard to keep up with every choice's resume as a general speculator and with Lycanroc's chances being circumstantial makes it safe to assume from the surface that he isn't going to be one of the four Fighter Pass slots (and they're slots now, but I pardon the use of a word with a negative connotation)

For fans of a character, it can be frustrating not being on the general speculator's mind, but I definitely get it from their perspective. Why bother with every choice when there's only four left? It'd be so annoying if people had to hear everyone out because that's a lot to hear out because there's a lot of hardcore fans for certain characters that cling to a potential behind the screen "what-if" as their claim to having a chance in a landscape where everyone having a fair chance is sheer impossible.

Which means it's far from a Lycanroc-exclusive problem. The Assist Alliance has succesfully banded together by the virtue of their characters having dedicated fanbases, but the general public doesn't see ATs getting upgraded and that's their right. It hasn't happened before and there's no hint to it happening aside from wishful thinking.

If I gotta use some grotesque metaphor, it's the endgame. People are buried in their own character threads, not looking outside. Again, can't blame em. People are tired of toxicness in this speculation phase and generally tired too, Smash 4 DLC to Smash Ultimate release was a long time and I get the feeling people are only riding this one out for their sake of their favorites. Assist Alliance is the only big non-leak shake-up that happened and it's only out there because it combines Waluigi fans and Isaac fans, the two actually tenacious character fanbases left.

People are tired and go along with the stream. It doesn't make them dumb for not doing the research, again, just hella tired of this hotmess. I doubt people are actively bringing down Lycanroc, they're just not interested and that's their right. I know Lycanroc fans are like truthhunters digging for clues, but you can't blame others for not giving a **** anymore

I haven't seen Gen 8 thrown out as a possbility except based on this "would be neat" wishful thinking, so saying the swaths are roaming to that one is unfair, especially since the deconfirmation of Rex has caused talks of cut-off dates and some measly speculation as to what that would be
 
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Honestly when you put too much stock in things like "super unique" when that applies to any number of Pokemon, including other Gen 7 ones like Silvally or Golisopod or even the other Gen 7 contender Decidueye (which also didn't really help Lycanroc to start with considering Decidueye was the ONLY contender other than Incineroar) or "it's Ash's MVP" which means literally nothing considered that hasn't played any factor whatsoever in Smash, it is hard not to see why you're on the "wrong side" of speculation.

Instead of focusing on why people should give Lycanroc a chance and throwing a pity party for yourself because people are (reasonably) moving on from ANY Gen 7 Pokemon at this time, think critically about why Lycanroc DIDN'T make it. Without any excuses such as "it isn't a starter" or "Dusk wasn't a factor yet".
 
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Also why should people care about "he's Ash's ace" aside from making him seemingly more likely and thus making it possible people are "right" if they predict him? Liklehood is dead if it's not based on leaks or similar recent developments so appealing to that easily leads to the reaction "ok cool i personally don't care"

Also, kinda tldr from last post,
Most characters can make a case so that they're technically still possible, and if the general speculator had to listen to every fanbase's argument as to why their darling is not actually completely dead and actually still possible, they'd be burned out from speculation sooner than they already are.

And as Golden says, most characters can also make a case as to why their character is unique and there's a load of characters where that uniqueness is more apparent than with Lycanroc, by the virtue of there being a buttload of characters
 
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I believe the main reason must've been that Incineroar was the easiest to make unique compared to some others.
  • "I wanted to try making a pro-wrestler character at least once!"-This must mean Sakurai had a moveset in his head for a while for a wrestler.
  • Non-clone fighters are still built off of slightly similar ones. See: :ultkirby::ultjigglypuff:, :ultfalcon::ultlittlemac:, :ultike::ultcloud::ultcorrin:, and :ultzss::ultbayonetta:.
  • It would be easier to make Incineroar out of Ganondorf's body shape than it would be for Decidueye to be built off Pit, Lycanroc off Duck Hunt, or Mimikyu off Pikachu.
Basically, Incineroar is simultaneously a safe and unsafe choice.

+Anyone who's played SM/USUM should recognize the starters
+Easier to make than certain other Pokemon without being a clone of any kind
-Not the most popular Gen 7 Pokemon among starters or otherwise
 
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Cosmic77

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I can't speak for the rest of the thread, but being "super unique" isn't what made me think Lycanroc was so likely.

You can argue that the anime shouldn't matter when choosing newcomers, but Sakurai has shown us that it does, and that applies to Incineroar as well. Mewtwo, Lucario, Pichu, Greninja - heck, even PT, a character who's literally the inspiration for Ash himself, has two Pokemon that were prominent in the original anime. I made the assumption that Lycanroc would be the newcomer due to it's overwhelming presence in the anime, but clearly I was wrong about that.

That being said, GameFreak does its best to predict popularity and promote certain Pokemon, and I don't think it's a coincidence Sakurai chose Incineroar over Decidueye. He can claim it's because of the wrestler motif all he wants, but seeing how Incineroar is the only one of the three who's even slightly promoted in the anime, it's a little hard for me to think GameFreak didn't give him a little nudge. Either Sakurai has more psychic powers than I thought he did, or GameFreak knew that the people writing the script for the anime were planning on giving Ash a Froakie and Litten that would both evolve into their final forms.

Being wrong about Lycanroc doesn't discourage me, and I'm honestly a little surprised that the other users here have been so hard on themselves. Our line of thinking that the anime could help predict the newcomer was correct, and that gives me confidence in not only Lycanroc, but any other future Pokemon I might like who's lucky enough to find itself on Ash's team.
 
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Garteam

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While we haven't gotten a character in yet solely because they're Ash's ace, there's basically no doubt in my mind that being Ash's ace is helpful to popularity. Charizard wouldn't be the 2nd most popular Pokemon after Pikachu if an entire generation didn't grow up watching one be the backbone of Ash's Kanto adventure. Likewise, Sceptile basically dethroned Blaziken as the most popular Gen 3 starter solely because the kids who grew up watching one be the most powerful member of Ash's Hoenn team entered the mainstream Pokemon fandom. In shonen anime, the characters who preform the best in battle are almost always the ones with large fanbases (see Vegeta, Sasuke, and Hiei) and Pokemon is no exception. Even if Ash's ace doesn't get an immediate boost in popularity, it generally gives the Pokemon some legs, which really helps it stand out amongst the other ones in its generation.

Regarding Ultimate, it's pretty clear that the anime really didn't have much influence on the choice this time around. While Incineroar has had a roll as a semi-reoccuring character, Decidueye basically had nothing. Rowlet's this season's comic relief, but we've only recently seen Dartrix and have yet to see Decidueye beyond a cameo. If Sakurai was really concerned with an anime appearance, Decidueye wouldn't have gotten so far into the consideration process.

That being said, I don't think it was that out there to believe that the anime would've played a key role in the Gen 7 character. The anime has played a semi-relevant role in every Pokemon character up until now. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Charizard, and Lucario all have characterization which matches their anime counterparts. Pokemon Trainer is much higher energy than Red's relatively stoic persona to better match Ash, while Ivysaur's brighter and more expressive face better matches Ash's Bulbasaur than its aggressive and angry in-game disposition. There's really no way to know if Sakurai picked Greninja due to knowledge of its planned role in the anime, but even then the anime played a role in its jump from Smash for to Ultimate (having it's swords redesigned to better match the anime's kunais and, of course, Ash-Greninja being its final Smash).
 
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Cosmic77

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Regarding Ultimate, it's pretty clear that the anime really didn't have much influence on the choice this time around. While Incineroar has had a roll as a semi-reoccuring character, Decidueye basically had nothing. Rowlet's this season's comic relief, but we've only recently seen Dartrix and have yet to see Decidueye beyond a cameo. If Sakurai was really concerned with an anime appearance, Decidueye wouldn't have gotten so far into the consideration process.
I actually disagree with that. You have to think ahead and look at an entire Pokemon series, not just what's currently airing. Greninja hardly made sense when it was revealed in 2014 because all Ash had was a Froakie, but by mid 2016, no one would've questioned it.

The writers plan the entire basic script for the anime long in advance. It's taking a little while longer than we're used to, but I have a feeling Torracat will evolve and have a presence in the league. If that's the case, then I'd argue GameFreak knew this all along and suggested Sakurai add Incineroar over the other two starters. It would certainly make sense, especially since we know the artists associated Incineroar with Ash in it's concept art.
 

Garteam

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I actually disagree with that. You have to think ahead and look at an entire Pokemon series, not just what's currently airing. Greninja hardly made sense when it was revealed in 2014 because all Ash had was a Froakie, but by mid 2016, no one would've questioned it.

The writers plan the entire basic script for the anime long in advance. It's taking a little while longer than we're used to, but I have a feeling Torracat will evolve and have a presence in the league. If that's the case, then I'd argue GameFreak knew this all along and suggested Sakurai add Incineroar over the other two starters. It would certainly make sense, especially since we know the artists associated Incineroar with Ash in it's concept art.
I see where you're coming from, but the only thing that makes me question this is Kukui's Incineroar and the relationship they seem to be setting up with it and Torracat. Right now, it's looking like each of Ash's Pokemon are getting a rival for the League, judging by the newest opening. Lycanroc is up against Gladion's Midnight Lycanroc, Rowlet is up against Hau's Dartrix, and Torracat seems to be up against Kukui's Incineroar. If Ash and Kukui square up in the league, it may be confusing for both to have an Incineroar, especially if the two Incineroar end up taking each other on directly.

There may've been a plan to have Torracat evolve into Incineroar, which could've influenced his inclusion in Smash, but I'm nearly certain that plan got shelved for one reason or another (Perhaps it was the fanbase's divisive initial reaction to Incineroar that caused some cold feet, or Game Freak wanted to give attention to Pokemon exclusive Ultra Sun/Moon such as Dusk Lycanroc and Poipole). Either way, I don't think a bit role was really what gave Incineroar the advantage over Decidueye, unless this hypothetical evolution plan was still in play when Sakurai finalized Incineroar as his choice.
 

Cosmic77

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I see where you're coming from, but the only thing that makes me question this is Kukui's Incineroar and the relationship they seem to be setting up with it and Torracat. Right now, it's looking like each of Ash's Pokemon are getting a rival for the League, judging by the newest opening. Lycanroc is up against Gladion's Midnight Lycanroc, Rowlet is up against Hau's Dartrix, and Torracat seems to be up against Kukui's Incineroar. If Ash and Kukui square up in the league, it may be confusing for both to have an Incineroar, especially if the two Incineroar end up taking each other on directly.

There may've been a plan to have Torracat evolve into Incineroar, which could've influenced his inclusion in Smash, but I'm nearly certain that plan got shelved for one reason or another (Perhaps it was the fanbase's divisive initial reaction to Incineroar that caused some cold feet, or Game Freak wanted to give attention to Pokemon exclusive Ultra Sun/Moon such as Dusk Lycanroc and Poipole). Either way, I don't think a bit role was really what gave Incineroar the advantage over Decidueye, unless this hypothetical evolution plan was still in play when Sakurai finalized Incineroar as his choice.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see. Lana's Popplio is evolving into a Primarina soon, so that gave me some hope toward Incineroar evolving as well.
 
D

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Likewise, Sceptile basically dethroned Blaziken as the most popular Gen 3 starter solely because the kids who grew up watching one be the most powerful member of Ash's Hoenn team entered the mainstream Pokemon fandom.
Uh...
Blaziken ranked 45 on the pre-Gen 7 Top 100 Pokémon poll in Japan.
Sceptile ranked 61.

Where are you getting this whole "Sceptile dethroned Blaziken" nonsense?
 

Garteam

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Uh...
Blaziken ranked 45 on the pre-Gen 7 Top 100 Pokémon poll in Japan.
Sceptile ranked 61.

Where are you getting this whole "Sceptile dethroned Blaziken" nonsense?
Perhaps "dethrone" is a bit of a stretch, but Sceptile has definitely taken a step up in popularity. Prior to the early 2010's, Blaziken was more or less the king of Gen 3 starters in terms of fan praise. However, nowadays things tend to be a little more divided. The Hoenn starters are far closer in popularity than before, where Blaziken basically just dominated any popularity contest.

For example, if Pokken Tournament (or any sort of Pokemon game) was purposed during Gen 3, 4, or 5, odds are Sceptile wouldn't really get brought up unless it was an anime die-hard who was deciding the roster. However, Sceptile had enough fanfare to properly justify his inclusion and received an extremely warm welcome when he was formally announced for that game at the end of 2015. Likewise, Sceptile also received a ton of support for Smash for's DLC. Obviously, there were other factors at play that influenced these results (his Pokken trailer was really well done, General Gen 3 hype was caused by ORAS, and people wanted the a starter for each type), but it does show that people sincerely like the Pokemon.

Regardless, Sceptile has come a long way after many years of being totally eclipsed by Blaziken. I don't think its coincidence that Sceptile's boost in popularity came around the same time that the Hoenn babies were starting to gather a sizeable portion of the Pokemon community.
 
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Delzethin

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While we haven't gotten a character in yet solely because they're Ash's ace, there's basically no doubt in my mind that being Ash's ace is helpful to popularity. Charizard wouldn't be the 2nd most popular Pokemon after Pikachu if an entire generation didn't grow up watching one be the backbone of Ash's Kanto adventure. Likewise, Sceptile basically dethroned Blaziken as the most popular Gen 3 starter solely because the kids who grew up watching one be the most powerful member of Ash's Hoenn team entered the mainstream Pokemon fandom. In shonen anime, the characters who preform the best in battle are almost always the ones with large fanbases (see Vegeta, Sasuke, and Hiei) and Pokemon is no exception. Even if Ash's ace doesn't get an immediate boost in popularity, it generally gives the Pokemon some legs, which really helps it stand out amongst the other ones in its generation.

Regarding Ultimate, it's pretty clear that the anime really didn't have much influence on the choice this time around. While Incineroar has had a roll as a semi-reoccuring character, Decidueye basically had nothing. Rowlet's this season's comic relief, but we've only recently seen Dartrix and have yet to see Decidueye beyond a cameo. If Sakurai was really concerned with an anime appearance, Decidueye wouldn't have gotten so far into the consideration process.

That being said, I don't think it was that out there to believe that the anime would've played a key role in the Gen 7 character. The anime has played a semi-relevant role in every Pokemon character up until now. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Charizard, and Lucario all have characterization which matches their anime counterparts. Pokemon Trainer is much higher energy than Red's relatively stoic persona to better match Ash, while Ivysaur's brighter and more expressive face better matches Ash's Bulbasaur than its aggressive and angry in-game disposition. There's really no way to know if Sakurai picked Greninja due to knowledge of its planned role in the anime, but even then the anime played a role in its jump from Smash for to Ultimate (having it's swords redesigned to better match the anime's kunais and, of course, Ash-Greninja being its final Smash).
That's the strange part about all of this. Sakurai himself said back in 2013 that he likes to think ahead when it comes to Pokémon, mentioning the anime and the media side of things as being just as important as the games. Yet the only two finalists from Gen 7 that we know of are one character who only has a bit role in the anime, and another that hasn't appeared at all aside from a couple cameos! So did Sakurai pull a 180 on this stance in the time since...or did something go awry?

Like, maybe, that they weren't able to wait as long for the Pokémon side of things as they were during Smash 4 development? Or that the character who has the Greninja role in Alola is in a form that wasn't revealed until August 2017 and likely wouldn't have had its details finalized until a few months prior to that? What if Sakurai and crew had to figure out a Plan B because they couldn't afford to delay development on a character--that was already scheduled to start development late--by another 9 months without throwing off so many other parts of development in a chain reaction of red tape?

After all, apparently a couple of Vergeben's sources said they'd heard Lycanroc wasn't in despite being unsure of who was. How would they have known a character wasn't in that has nothing ingame to deconfirm them like a spirit or the Mimikyu summon...unless said character had been considered?

I believe the main reason must've been that Incineroar was the easiest to make unique compared to some others.[/URL]
    • "I wanted to try making a pro-wrestler character at least once!"-This must mean Sakurai had a moveset in his head for a while for a wrestler.
    • Non-clone fighters are still built off of slightly similar ones. See: :ultkirby::ultjigglypuff:, :ultfalcon::ultlittlemac:, :ultike::ultcloud::ultcorrin:, and :ultzss::ultbayonetta:.
    • It would be easier to make Incineroar out of Ganondorf's body shape than it would be for Decidueye to be built off Pit, Lycanroc off Duck Hunt, or Mimikyu off Pikachu.
I've been considering that myself, actually. We even know of a past example where one character got the nod over another specifically due to being easier to make: Wolf snuck into Brawl because, according to Sakurai, the team was able to build him using assets that already existed, while Krystal narrowly missed out because they'd have had to build her completely from scratch.

Ultimate doesn't appear to have had Brawl's high-pressure dev cycle, but maybe something could've necessitated they prioritize the easier character to make. Perhaps because their Plan A had fallen through due to the character filling that niche not having a finished design yet, and they needed a backup ASAP?

Eh. Just a theory so far.
 
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D

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You're looking way too far into this and getting so many details wrong about what was said.


...honestly, I think it's best I stay out of this thread from now on before I get too confrontational.....
Keep fighting the good fight, I guess.
 
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Didn't the interviewer bring up Krystal in that specific question? I don't remember that answer as being "Actually, we planned Krystal but she didn't make the cut" as much as it was "No, Krystal wasn't planned and Wolf only got in because we needed derivative characters at the end of the cycle"

Even then, Incineroar isn't exactly a derivative character and saying he must've been in because he must've been easy to make is not only a big assumption in a thread where assumptions and "must-be's" are as dreaded as the devil, but also an assumption made in both contempt of the candidate chosen and in an overestimation of your own character (as Lycanroc in this scenario would've been too unique to make the cut, instead of, I dunno, not as interesting or important as you make him out to be)

I know Delz threw it out there as a theory, and this post isn't an attack on something only half-serious, but this thread seems to be pretty hardcore in speculating and it's an atmosphere that's influenced this and other posts I make in this thread
 
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Garteam

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The weird thing about Wolf's situation was that even he made it in by the skin of his teeth. He was one of the 4 characters who made it into Brawl by the thanks to the second delay (along with :sonic:,:jigglypuff:, and :toonlink:). As such, he may not have even been on the project plan, given his creation was solely done in unaccounted for time.
Regarding the time theory, I could see it as a realistic reason that :ultincineroar: was the one who got the final cut among him and Decidueye. The Arboreal Archer has somewhat awkward body type and a fighting style that isn't shared by much of the cast. Seeing how this was presumably the final character to start formal development by a decent amount of time, perhaps the fact Incineroar didn't have these issues was a major plus. It would also explain why two newcomers have the exact same down-smash (:ultkrool: and :ultincineroar:), it was a time saving measure. Granted, this whole theory explains more about Decidueye than us, seeing how we were off the table by this point.
That being said, :ultincineroar: really could just be a cigar in this case. Sakurai did grow up in 90's arcades, where there were a million fighting games and basically everyone had their own version of Zangief. Wouldn't be that out-there to assume he's just really into the wrestler archetype. Likewise, Sakurai is really starting to take Smash's image as a real fighting game seriously (adding things like hazardless stages, a 1 on 1 UI that better suits spectatorship, and a training mode that matches the detail held by major fighters), maybe all these thoughts of "how to make Smash a respectable fighting game" led him towards archetypes and inevitably the wrestler?
 
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Noipoi

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I've been following this thread for a bit (It's inspiring how you guys keep fighting when everyone else would give up) and I think I have the answer to your current question.

Incineroar is in...

Because he's the most radical thing to come out of Alola, Sakurai could tell.

This was a joke don't hurt me.
 

Guynamednelson

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(It's inspiring how you guys keep fighting when everyone else would give up)
Yeah, I don't get how Decidueye fans wouldn't keep up for some of the same reasons we do: No spirit*, and the lack of an Alola stage and USUM music is perfect for how challenger packs are set up.

*Assuming they do deconfirm. I wouldn't want that, because it's an absurdly high number of deconfirmations.
 

Garteam

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I've been following this thread for a bit (It's inspiring how you guys keep fighting when everyone else would give up) and I think I have the answer to your current question.

Incineroar is in...

Because he's the most radical thing to come out of Alola, Sakurai could tell.

This was a joke don't hurt me.
When it comes to Alola's most radical Pokemon, there's only one option:

Also, can we all just acknowledge the fact that Sakurai made him taller for his Pokeball appearance?
 
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