Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
Firstoff let me say no johns here, Armada won Apex and he deserved to. He beat Mango, he beat Peepee, he beat Hbox. Let me also state that the reason for this thread can be applied to players other than Hbox who may be getting counterpicked so it's not targetting 1 player exactly. Hopefully this will help contribute to YL vs Puff not being played in tournament. Why? Because of how the counterpicking system works and how it works against Young Link.
For our example with Hbox:
He has to hate playing the YL v Puff matchup... obviously enough to start training a pocket ness. He has a stage advantage counterpick at least for FD because lack of plats reduced YL options, however that changes when FD is banned/striked. Here is the thing... If the other player (armada for example) sticks to his guns, then every time you lose a game against young link you can take the next one almost free.
How does this work?
1) Hbox picks puff, Armada picks YL normal hype match occurs (lol). Let's say that Hbox loses the match.
2) If he loses, then he picks stage, Armada is now forced to go YL or face puff with peach which he is originally counterpicking. He goes YL.
3) HBOX CAN NOW PULL OUT ANY POCKET COUNTER TO YL. I'LL GIVE YOU A HINT HE IS A LOW TIER FOR A REASON, LOTS OF BAD MATCHUPS. GRAB A GANON, FOX, FALCO, SHIEK, DOC... TAKE YOUR PICK. GO TO TOWN.
4) At this point Armada knows that if he wins while choosing YL the second match is free (hbox will most likely have a good stage choice AND a counter character to YL). whereas if he loses game 1 w/ YL hbox is up a game in the set.
5) Armada starts picking peach against puff or at least some non-YL counterpick. Hype ensues like never before. People keep watching through GFs. Everyone is happy.
If Hbox wins a match and is up in the set then Armada will be inclined not to pick YL just because he is down in the set and the matchup is as we all saw MUCH CLOSER THAN BEFORE. Last stock, last seconds, time outs? Not what you're trying to get out of a char CP. Too large a gamble, plus if he wins that one then Hbox will once again get to wrap the set up in the next game without YL or using a YL counter provided it's necessary.
The only time Hbox might have to use his YL counter against peach would be if he wanted to avoid Puff vs YL in the first match or in the event he lost the 1st match and won the second. In that case Armada can try to win game 3 by counterpicking peach to Hbox's YL counter, or if Hbox uses puff, he can play Puff vs YL. In that scenario Hbox may want to simply use his secondary to cover both options.
Please, don't pick up a counter NESS you should have just trained a high tier YL counter. Ganon is an awesome choice if you want someone who isn't super fast on input but with solid range punishes, as a puff player you could probably learn him quick. You'd probably take to Doc really quickly as well. Just please.... to ANYONE who is having this kind of counterpick problem.... realize that you don't have to get counterpicked in the matchup like this. YL vs Puff never had to have happened. It could have been YL vs some YL counter or just Peach vs Puff.
I'm out.
_________________________
EDIT: How it plays out:
Note: because of your secondary discouraging YL, you will get to play peach or some other favorable matchup every time you lose, meaning if you lose game 1 then even in a best of 5 your favored to come down to game 5 where in games 1 and 3 you still had a close matchup to try and grab a lead which would most likely stop the opponent from picking YL.
Select your characters as “Double Blind” for game 1. Now its a guessing game between whether they think you'll choose the secondary or the main. Puff vs YL is close, Puff vs Peach the opponent wants to avoid, so choosing puff is solid. If you go Secondary and he goes Peach tbh you’re probably losing game 1 but favored to go to the last game of the set where only half the matches will be Puff vs YL and any win you get will make them most likely stop picking YL even if you go puff. Or if you go Secondary in game 1 he may go YL and you will get game 1 giftwrapped which would make you heavily favored to win. So really, choose your own adventure. If you win game 1 you are favored to win the set, if you lose game 1 you are favored to have it come down to the last match in a close matchup. If you use Puff for game 1 it will either be close or in your advantage, and if you go secondary it will most likely be **** or get *****.
If you win game 1 you will most likely be playing Peach vs Puff. If you were to lose game 2/4 in the Puff vs YL matchup, then you will be guaranteed game 3/5 as YL vs Secondary (Hard counter) with stage advantage as well, or Peach vs Puff (your main) with stage advantage, which is what you wanted in the first place. Winning game 1 is highly advantageous.
If you lost game 1 then you are at a slight disadvantage, you will be guaranteed Peach vs puff for game 2/4 or YL vs your secondary (Hard counter) and able to draw it even. This means even if you kept trading wins by losing the CLOSE puff vs YL matchup for games 1 and 3 (if best of 5) you are guaranteed to have matchup favor pushing you towards the final game of the set. This means you only have to win 1 or 2 of the YL vs Puff matches to take the set depending on if its best of 3 or 5 and if you won or lost game 1. If you manage to win either game 1 or 3 (if best of 5) then you are now heavily favored in the counter-picking and it becomes less likely peach will choose to go YL against you even though you won and selected your character first.
For our example with Hbox:
He has to hate playing the YL v Puff matchup... obviously enough to start training a pocket ness. He has a stage advantage counterpick at least for FD because lack of plats reduced YL options, however that changes when FD is banned/striked. Here is the thing... If the other player (armada for example) sticks to his guns, then every time you lose a game against young link you can take the next one almost free.
How does this work?
1) Hbox picks puff, Armada picks YL normal hype match occurs (lol). Let's say that Hbox loses the match.
2) If he loses, then he picks stage, Armada is now forced to go YL or face puff with peach which he is originally counterpicking. He goes YL.
3) HBOX CAN NOW PULL OUT ANY POCKET COUNTER TO YL. I'LL GIVE YOU A HINT HE IS A LOW TIER FOR A REASON, LOTS OF BAD MATCHUPS. GRAB A GANON, FOX, FALCO, SHIEK, DOC... TAKE YOUR PICK. GO TO TOWN.
4) At this point Armada knows that if he wins while choosing YL the second match is free (hbox will most likely have a good stage choice AND a counter character to YL). whereas if he loses game 1 w/ YL hbox is up a game in the set.
5) Armada starts picking peach against puff or at least some non-YL counterpick. Hype ensues like never before. People keep watching through GFs. Everyone is happy.
If Hbox wins a match and is up in the set then Armada will be inclined not to pick YL just because he is down in the set and the matchup is as we all saw MUCH CLOSER THAN BEFORE. Last stock, last seconds, time outs? Not what you're trying to get out of a char CP. Too large a gamble, plus if he wins that one then Hbox will once again get to wrap the set up in the next game without YL or using a YL counter provided it's necessary.
The only time Hbox might have to use his YL counter against peach would be if he wanted to avoid Puff vs YL in the first match or in the event he lost the 1st match and won the second. In that case Armada can try to win game 3 by counterpicking peach to Hbox's YL counter, or if Hbox uses puff, he can play Puff vs YL. In that scenario Hbox may want to simply use his secondary to cover both options.
Please, don't pick up a counter NESS you should have just trained a high tier YL counter. Ganon is an awesome choice if you want someone who isn't super fast on input but with solid range punishes, as a puff player you could probably learn him quick. You'd probably take to Doc really quickly as well. Just please.... to ANYONE who is having this kind of counterpick problem.... realize that you don't have to get counterpicked in the matchup like this. YL vs Puff never had to have happened. It could have been YL vs some YL counter or just Peach vs Puff.
I'm out.
_________________________
EDIT: How it plays out:
Note: because of your secondary discouraging YL, you will get to play peach or some other favorable matchup every time you lose, meaning if you lose game 1 then even in a best of 5 your favored to come down to game 5 where in games 1 and 3 you still had a close matchup to try and grab a lead which would most likely stop the opponent from picking YL.
Select your characters as “Double Blind” for game 1. Now its a guessing game between whether they think you'll choose the secondary or the main. Puff vs YL is close, Puff vs Peach the opponent wants to avoid, so choosing puff is solid. If you go Secondary and he goes Peach tbh you’re probably losing game 1 but favored to go to the last game of the set where only half the matches will be Puff vs YL and any win you get will make them most likely stop picking YL even if you go puff. Or if you go Secondary in game 1 he may go YL and you will get game 1 giftwrapped which would make you heavily favored to win. So really, choose your own adventure. If you win game 1 you are favored to win the set, if you lose game 1 you are favored to have it come down to the last match in a close matchup. If you use Puff for game 1 it will either be close or in your advantage, and if you go secondary it will most likely be **** or get *****.
If you win game 1 you will most likely be playing Peach vs Puff. If you were to lose game 2/4 in the Puff vs YL matchup, then you will be guaranteed game 3/5 as YL vs Secondary (Hard counter) with stage advantage as well, or Peach vs Puff (your main) with stage advantage, which is what you wanted in the first place. Winning game 1 is highly advantageous.
If you lost game 1 then you are at a slight disadvantage, you will be guaranteed Peach vs puff for game 2/4 or YL vs your secondary (Hard counter) and able to draw it even. This means even if you kept trading wins by losing the CLOSE puff vs YL matchup for games 1 and 3 (if best of 5) you are guaranteed to have matchup favor pushing you towards the final game of the set. This means you only have to win 1 or 2 of the YL vs Puff matches to take the set depending on if its best of 3 or 5 and if you won or lost game 1. If you manage to win either game 1 or 3 (if best of 5) then you are now heavily favored in the counter-picking and it becomes less likely peach will choose to go YL against you even though you won and selected your character first.
