Counter out of shield?

[Animal]

If the spacies can shine out of shield, than couldn't marth down b out of shield also? Could countering out of shield be at all effective? or is wding back to fsmash alot more ****.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Counter

Total: 59
Counters: 5-29

--when it counters--
Total: 46
Hit: 14-20 (or 1 frame later for real
strong moves)
Invincible 1-16
plus 4 frames of jump lag and add 2 for the fact your not frame perfect.

 

[Animal]

....is that a no? haha

 

[Signia]

It's a great idea in matchups where counter isn't bad, just not as a way to get out of tight shield pressure. It'll take 9 frames minimum so it's only the best option at times when you know they'll approach because they know they can safely hit your shield. I only do this against falco and rarely in other matchups because throws beat counter, and falco's throws aren't very threatening. Counter just wrecks falco when he's caught playing mindlessly.

Delayed attacks will also beat it, but if you can get them to delay their attacks, you can get away with all sorts of shenanigans.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Incoming more bull**** frame data from jungle

nair - 10
bair - 11
fair - 9
dair - 10
uair - 9
up b - 8 (I think)
counter - 9
grab - 7


counter would be a fairly decent option for those applying shield pressure behind you
, trying to force you to roll, it seems.

 

[AustinRC]

I've actually used this a lot in matches recently it has a good bit of uses imo. I do use it against Fox and Falco but it works for me because I light shield their aerial then I heavy shield into the counter oos. Takes them longer to reach you if they still try going for another aerial giving you the few frames you need. Granted you have to be smart with it other wise you fall victim to walk up and grab lawl.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Incoming more bull**** frame data from jungle

nair - 10
bair - 11
fair - 9
dair - 10
uair - 9
up b - 8 (I think)
counter - 9
grab - 7


counter would be a fairly decent option for those applying shield pressure behind you
, trying to force you to roll, it seems.

Up+B is frame 6

jump 1 + 5 attack startup

 

[Niko45]

I may be wrong but it seems to me that counter has slightly more range than fair OOS so if falco is lasering in your face just out of range I'll use it.

 

[xbombr]

I may be wrong but it seems to me that counter has slightly more range than fair OOS so if falco is lasering in your face just out of range I'll use it.

Theorycraft:

Why would a Falco stand at this distance and continuously laser if you're in your shield? He would either be right up next to you pressuring your shield with aerials, shines, dtilt if he think it'll stab, maybe a jab or two, and mixing in grabs or slightly further away than your counter and FAir OoS's range and lasering if he has good spacing. The reach difference can't be so much that it'll catch Falco's by surprise that you hit them since they probably already know about FAir OoS and have a rough idea of where to position themselves when lasering. Unless I'm underestimating the range counter has, Falco shouldn't be continuously lasering within it's range because the distance he can jump between lasers and aerials is larger. You might get one laser in this range to keep you locked down before an aerial or he retreats and that would be probably your only chance to catch him against lasering...

/Theorycraft

Could work against bad laser spacing and overly aggressive Falcos I guess though.

I could see this working against a predicted laser -> grab or laser -> shine approach though. The laser sets off your counter and they move right into it's hitbox. Like Jungle said, the other best option is shield pressure against your back.

IMO,You'd be mad susceptible to blank fire if you used this as anything more than a mix up. There's enough lag on the end where you're basically giving Falco a free combo. Probably not worth the risk in the long run if you're playing against someone smart.

edit:

I've actually used this a lot in matches recently it has a good bit of uses imo. I do use it against Fox and Falco but it works for me because I light shield their aerial then I heavy shield into the counter oos. Takes them longer to reach you if they still try going for another aerial giving you the few frames you need. Granted you have to be smart with it other wise you fall victim to walk up and grab lawl.

That's a pretty ingenious use of this. You could probably do this with other OoS options too.

 

[otg]

How would you go about flat out countering OOS? Would you not have to jump first? And if you have to jump first, wouldn't his other oos options be way faster (aka better?) I'm just curious.

I mean, the only reason spacies shine OOS is so good is because the shine is jump cancelable. No one else in the game has the same luxury.

 

[painlord k11]

i do love way to use counter more....... =D i like utuilizing all my moves!!!

 

[xbombr]

Rest OoS, UB OoS, ect. ect.

Up on the Cstick and Down-B immediately. If you mean like holding R and pressing down-b and nothing else, then no.

Spacies don't Shine OoS just because it's jump cancelable. It comes out uberfast, they can combo from it, and goes through everything. Anything with invincibility on it is a good OoS option unless the start up is too long to make use of it or it'll never hit anything (like Sheik's UpB).

You can't jump cancel Samus's UB OoS and that practically defines her defensive game outside of WD'ing. It's even match up changing, like against Falco where he can no longer just aggressively pressure your shield.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Up+B is frame 6

jump 1 + 5 attack startup

sank you sank you

OTG: Shine oos is so good because it comes out so fast, so that even if you do jump (which most people do) its still out faster than most things your opponent can hit you with.

Also, all that data i posted includes jump frames.

 

[Dart]

Counter

Total: 59
Counters: 5-29

--when it counters--
Total: 46
Hit: 14-20 (or 1 frame later for real
strong moves)
Invincible 1-16
plus 4 frames of jump lag and add 2 for the fact your not frame perfect.

quoting epic post

 

[.Ðempt]

Not worth it imo. Chances are if you're shielding, its cause theyre right there attacking you, which means they're probably going to try to grab you. Your best move is attack, Fair if theyre in front, Bair (or dsmash cause you lean the opposite way, and the 2nd swing sets up better) if they're behind.

Just saying what usually happens out there.

 

[xbombr]

You can't Dsmash OoS...

FAir and BAir OoS aren't exactly great vs. Shield pressure either as they're two of the slowest options available.

Granted I agree that counter isn't a great OoS option since you're still susceptible to grabs and it's around the same speed as an aerial OoS, it goes through more stuff due to the invincibility.

 

[.Ðempt]

*Sigh*

I wasn't talking about dsmash OoS. Drop your shield, then dsmash. Now Im not a frame expert but it cant take a whole lot of frames to do that, at least not imo, but we got people for that, so w/e.

Regardless, what other options would you turn to if you have pressure on you?

 

[Staco]

It works pretty well against players which like to pressure your shield, for example a lot of Falco players.
Cause they are alway coming from the air they will attack your shield most of the time and not just land and grab you. (esle you could just grab em)

 

[stelzig]

*Sigh*

I wasn't talking about dsmash OoS. Drop your shield, then dsmash. Now Im not a frame expert but it cant take a whole lot of frames to do that, at least not imo.

Just drop shield and attack under shieldpressure? Former brawl player or something?
You will definetly not have time to just drop it, there's a reason all normal out of shield options (bar grab and roll/dodge) involve jumping out of it. Even less have time to hit with the back hit of dsmash... If anything you could try wavedashing out like the first post suggests and dsmash instead of fsmash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shield drop with Marth takes 16 frames. So no. That won't work.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I wavedash outta shield when under pressure. worst case scenario is if I mess up I roll away to safety.

Or if there's a platform above me, more likely I'll up-b.
I only fair outta shield(tends to be full hopped too, with a descending fair cause I'm like that, good or bad as it is) when they're at fair tipper range/beyond fair tipper range and approaching.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Shield drop with Marth takes 16 frames. So no. That won't work.

You could powershield like me. haha, risky as heck but I seem to be lucky at shielding

 

[stelzig]

Doesn't it still take the same number of frames to drop your shield when powershielding, and just reduce shieldstun?

 

[Staco]

Doesn't it still take the same number of frames to drop your shield when powershielding, and just reduce shieldstun?

If you ps normal attacks your will have got almost no shielddroplag.
If you ps projectiles you will reflect them, but you still got shielddroplag.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

oh, yea. you still got SOME shield drop lag

but then again, that's if you want an option that drops your shield.
Anything done from the shield can be done instantly after powershield.
Powershield shl to shieldgrab, anyone?

 

[Animal]

i saw ayoshi dmsash outta shield tru fax

 

[MT_]

(mainly referring to falco)

When comparing counter oos to up-b oos, doesn't it cover more options/less risk of missing? Also, at low percentages an up-b oos is easily punishable if it hits weak (if at all). If you can counter then it'll set up for a tech-chase. Also, counter oos will work when falco is right on top of you (and slightly above) where usually up-b won't hit very well.

I'm thinking counter oos is a good alternative to just rolling away from shield pressure because it covers all spacings. It doesn't matter where your opponent is; in front, behind, on top, it'll work unless they completely predicted you or you mistime it in their pressure.

 

[Zodiac]

in the right situation is seems perfectly feasible, think of it as a jc grab, jump out of sheild and quickly down b, im gonna go test it.

Edit:Tested, If your fast enough it works on the ground just like a jc grab would, the goal now is finding a proper time to use it. Im going to test tomorrow night in actual combat if my sheild gets pressured.

 

[AustinRC]

MT just use it like how I was using it against everyone when I was in Texas! It ***** Mitchel <3!!!

 

[Diakonos]

I use it from time to time. It can be useful if Falco thinks you're a StairMaster or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXkfC3vPZDM at 2:44.

I don't think a dair would have hit there, and a fair I think would have traded. As well, notice that he was behind me.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Doesn't it still take the same number of frames to drop your shield when powershielding, and just reduce shieldstun?

Powershielding normal attacks results in zero shield drop lag. However, you still have to go through shieldstun and shield hitlag as normal.

Powershielding projectiles results in zero shield stun. However, you still have to go through shield drop lag as normal (unsure if shieldhitlag is affected at all).

The more you know



As for the whole counter OoS thing. Counter OoS takes at LEAST 9 frames (5 frame jump+4 frame counter startup), making it a slower option than grab. So there's a decent reference point for if you wanna try to counter OoS during pressure (just ask, "would I have time to grab this?").

 

[Signia]

As for the whole counter OoS thing. Counter OoS takes at LEAST 9 frames (5 frame jump+4 frame counter startup), making it a slower option than grab. So there's a decent reference point for if you wanna try to counter OoS during pressure (just ask, "would I have time to grab this?").

Yeah in good pressure counter OoS will fail. But If they're pulling shenagians around your shield, it might be useful, as it lasts longer than a grab. Also, if they're behind you, this is one of his better options, as you can't grab, do a quick aerial out of shield, or even up-B. I'd usually opt for WD out of shield, but if they think they can smack the back of your shield nonchalantly, a counter OoS is a decent choice.

Also, countering by the edge can get some you some unexpected gimps/edgeguard opportunities. If you DI incorrectly, the counter sends you at a low angle, with the hitstun wearing off after they drop below the ledge. It's not easy to DI correctly either, as it's hard to tell which direction you'll be sent. I especially like the counter for punishing fools trying to aerial me without their DJ.