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DarkDragoon

DarkDragoon

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Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
Hazygoose said:
mal and cobb lie down on train tracks to wake themselves up. if you remember correctly, they didn't play kicks from sleep levels 1-3 because...well...there was ****ing no one else there. when they get their heads squashed by the train, they immediately woke up in real life. you CAN die there, the only problem is that your world is so real you obviously can't talk yourself into killing yourself. like i said, the dream states seem circuitous, so a 4th state death leads to an awaken state, as opposed to a 5th state. more on this at the end...

ellen page and fischer, on the other hand, got "kicks" in the 4th state, were shown 'waking up' in the 3rd state and riding the rest of the kicks back to the 1st dream state. on that same note, since saito and cobb missed the kick to get back into the 3rd dream state, they had to find a way to get straight back to reality. how do you do this? by killing yourself in the 4th level. this is why cobb gives saito the same speech he gave mal when they were on the tracks, the "leap of faith" speech...basically you tell someone they should kill themselves, they're like "lulz y wuld i do dat?" and you say "just trust me on this." if i ****ing walked up to you with a gun and told you to shoot yourself in the head, you would tell me to go **** myself. so yeah, that's the reason it is so hard to leave the 4th level. by killing themselves, saito and cobb don't have to go back to the 3rd layer (they would have missed the kick and would have just been chilling there for a long time), and instead awaken immediately.

i hope that makes sense in explanation. because saying killing yourself in the 1st dream state puts your right in the 4th dream state (while under sedation), but killing yourself in the 4th dream state puts you in the 3rd dream state makes absolutely no sense at all logically, even disregarding the fact that they straight up show us that it leads to cognizance. it was also well-timed of course, killing themselves in the 4th state about the same time that they woke up...i would assume that if you were under heavy sedation and killed yourself in the 4th state with like 7 hours of sleep to go that you would shoot out of your dream but still be asleep...like stage 2 sleep or something. that seems like the only way to rationally explain all of it.
Click to expand...
I forgot about the train tracks. Okay, now it all makes sense.

...kind of.
xD

Shadowball2 said:
you know a dude named Russell who thinks he can play Marth (lol)? Reguardless... sure I'll play you. MA doesn't play eachother anyways ask Cog. HIIIIIIIIII Cog! =D
Click to expand...
MA plays together all the time while I'm at WPI.
Cog plays no one.
-DD
 
EC_Joey

EC_Joey

Smash Lord
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
1,719
Location
何?
DarkDragoon said:
Also,
Magus just cracked all of the Melee.dat files. The ProjectM team now has full, unaltered access to all of Melee's raw data for hitbox sizes, momentum, knockback, scaling, speeds, etc. **** just got real-er.
-DD
Click to expand...
Sounds like your list of **** to fix just multiplied like a hundred bunnies in heat.
 
Zombie Lucille Ball

Zombie Lucille Ball

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
3,823
Location
stop hitting me, Ricky
Hazygoose said:
i really don't see how people walk away from that movie thinking that it's a dream at the end. the top wobbling could be argued endlessly, but it's hard to imagine that exact motion would be there unless nolan 1)wanted you to know he woke up, obviously giving the ending of a movie more of a "bang" by immediately ending it there, as opposed to waiting 20 seconds for it to completely fall or 2)wanted it to be ambiguous and without any solution by having it neither topple nor infinitely spin.

not to mention for every "hint" at the ending being a dream state there seems to be hard evidence IN the movie against it. mainly i just don't see how if the 3rd level is so unstable that they argue about how they can even enter it for like 10 minutes with the chemist and the 4th level is whack as **** that it is even possible to be in a 5th. it's seems circuitous in that 1->2->3->4...but if you die in the 4th you shoot right back up to 1? problem is it's such a deep slumber that no one considers killing themselves, as both times they have the "leap of faith" speech. so yeah, if it's circuitous, there is absolutely no mentioning or even hinting at how a 5th state is even possible, and could cause a break in a very established pattern...to say the chain is broken nearly negates the entire movie.

just my $0.02 i have already had 3 4-hour long discussions about this movie. headsplitting, but that's just one more reason to love it.


would anyone in the hartford area be ballin' enough to accept gas money and drive me from bradley to wesleyan on SEPTEMBER 4TH :o i will also pay for din-din and we can play some smash or whatever else...? ehhh? ehhhhhhhhhhh? <3
Click to expand...
Hazygoose said:
mal and cobb lie down on train tracks to wake themselves up. if you remember correctly, they didn't play kicks from sleep levels 1-3 because...well...there was ****ing no one else there. when they get their heads squashed by the train, they immediately woke up in real life. you CAN die there, the only problem is that your world is so real you obviously can't talk yourself into killing yourself. like i said, the dream states seem circuitous, so a 4th state death leads to an awaken state, as opposed to a 5th state. more on this at the end...

ellen page and fischer, on the other hand, got "kicks" in the 4th state, were shown 'waking up' in the 3rd state and riding the rest of the kicks back to the 1st dream state. on that same note, since saito and cobb missed the kick to get back into the 3rd dream state, they had to find a way to get straight back to reality. how do you do this? by killing yourself in the 4th level. this is why cobb gives saito the same speech he gave mal when they were on the tracks, the "leap of faith" speech...basically you tell someone they should kill themselves, they're like "lulz y wuld i do dat?" and you say "just trust me on this." if i ****ing walked up to you with a gun and told you to shoot yourself in the head, you would tell me to go **** myself. so yeah, that's the reason it is so hard to leave the 4th level. by killing themselves, saito and cobb don't have to go back to the 3rd layer (they would have missed the kick and would have just been chilling there for a long time), and instead awaken immediately.

i hope that makes sense in explanation. because saying killing yourself in the 1st dream state puts your right in the 4th dream state (while under sedation), but killing yourself in the 4th dream state puts you in the 3rd dream state makes absolutely no sense at all logically, even disregarding the fact that they straight up show us that it leads to cognizance. it was also well-timed of course, killing themselves in the 4th state about the same time that they woke up...i would assume that if you were under heavy sedation and killed yourself in the 4th state with like 7 hours of sleep to go that you would shoot out of your dream but still be asleep...like stage 2 sleep or something. that seems like the only way to rationally explain all of it.
Click to expand...
Basically, your problem is with Mal & Cobb's first foray into "Limbo". You're saying the rules don't seem to be consistent with them because then why would Ariadne jump to lvl 4 instead of all the way back to 1 (I'm using the "real world" as level 1 in this post...whether or not that means I think the "real world" is another dream-level, well decide foryourself lol) when she killed herself? Well that's because when Mal & Cobb went to limbo for the first time, they bypassed all the other levels. This isn't explicitly explained, but they somehow (through "experimenting") got either straight to limbo or went through the other levels quickly. When Mal & Cobb were in limbo the first time, there were no other levels and that's why they jumped back up to 1 when the train came. Same thing with Cobb & Saito when they eventually jumped back to 1. You can't just jump past levels if they exist, you have to go through each one. And the dreamer's level is the one who remains awake in it:
lvl 1: plane ride.
lvl 2 (van driving): Yusuf
lvl 3 (hotel stuff): Arthur
lvl 4 (modern warfare 2 snow): Fischer
Limbo
When Mal & Cobb experimented in their living room, it was just:
lvl 1: living room
Limbo.

Shadowball2 said:
you know a dude named Russell who thinks he can play Marth (lol)? Reguardless... sure I'll play you. MA doesn't play eachother anyways ask Cog. HIIIIIIIIII Cog! =D
Click to expand...
Hi.

DarkDragoon said:
MA plays together all the time while I'm at WPI.
Cog plays no one.
-DD
Click to expand...
Western Mass does not count. In fact, I'm introducing legislation to make a "West Massachusetts" (like North Carolina or West Virginia), splitting everything west of 495 off into its own state. You'd need a passport to get to Massachusetts proper. I will then sell the city of Worcester to Satan for $10 so he can eat it and put it out of its misery.
 
Mogwai

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
10,449
Location
I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
don't mind me, I'm just really starting to feel left out.
We're no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do I
A full commitment's what I'm thinking of
You wouldn't get this from any other guy
I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling
Gotta make you understand

CHORUS
Never gonna give you up,
Never gonna let you down,
Never gonna run around and desert you,
Never gonna make you cry,
Never gonna say goodbye,
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

We've known each other for so long
Your heart's been aching but you're too shy to say it
Inside we both know what's been going on
We know the game and we're gonna play it
And if you ask me how I'm feeling
Don't tell me you're too blind to see

(CHORUS)

CHORUSCHORUS
(Ooh give you up)
(Ooh give you up)
(Ooh) never gonna give, never gonna give
(give you up)
(Ooh) never gonna give, never gonna give
(give you up)

We've known each other for so long
Your heart's been aching but you're too shy to say it
Inside we both know what's been going on
We know the game and we're gonna play it

I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling
Gotta make you understand

(CHORUS)
 
Zombie Lucille Ball

Zombie Lucille Ball

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
3,823
Location
stop hitting me, Ricky
Mogwai said:
don't mind me, I'm just really starting to feel left out.
We're no strangers to love
You know the rules and so do I
A full commitment's what I'm thinking of
You wouldn't get this from any other guy
I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling
Gotta make you understand

CHORUS
Never gonna give you up,
Never gonna let you down,
Never gonna run around and desert you,
Never gonna make you cry,
Never gonna say goodbye,
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you

We've known each other for so long
Your heart's been aching but you're too shy to say it
Inside we both know what's been going on
We know the game and we're gonna play it
And if you ask me how I'm feeling
Don't tell me you're too blind to see

(CHORUS)

CHORUSCHORUS
(Ooh give you up)
(Ooh give you up)
(Ooh) never gonna give, never gonna give
(give you up)
(Ooh) never gonna give, never gonna give
(give you up)

We've known each other for so long
Your heart's been aching but you're too shy to say it
Inside we both know what's been going on
We know the game and we're gonna play it

I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling
Gotta make you understand

(CHORUS)
Click to expand...
This was masterful. Well done, sir.


 
Hazygoose

Hazygoose

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
1,999
Location
straight outta Locash
CogSmooch said:
Basically, your problem is with Mal & Cobb's first foray into "Limbo". You're saying the rules don't seem to be consistent with them because then why would Ariadne jump to lvl 4 instead of all the way back to 1 (I'm using the "real world" as level 1 in this post...whether or not that means I think the "real world" is another dream-level, well decide foryourself lol) when she killed herself? Well that's because when Mal & Cobb went to limbo for the first time, they bypassed all the other levels. This isn't explicitly explained, but they somehow (through "experimenting") got either straight to limbo or went through the other levels quickly. When Mal & Cobb were in limbo the first time, there were no other levels and that's why they jumped back up to 1 when the train came. Same thing with Cobb & Saito when they eventually jumped back to 1. You can't just jump past levels if they exist, you have to go through each one. And the dreamer's level is the one who remains awake in it:
lvl 1: plane ride.
lvl 2 (van driving): Yusuf
lvl 3 (hotel stuff): Arthur
lvl 4 (modern warfare 2 snow): Fischer
Limbo
When Mal & Cobb experimented in their living room, it was just:
lvl 1: living room
Limbo.
Click to expand...
eames was the one who stayed back on the "snow level." not that it's important but yeah. point being:

naw
and
duh

i saw where you were going at first...with mal and cobb...i guess it's never explained either way if they had entered 1 or more levels independently...but saito and cobb, how can you say they went straight to limbo when like over half of the movie is them doing otherwise. saito is the first person to go from 3->4, and even though it's not explained how leo goes from one section of limbo to another (the beach on saito's mind), it would make way more sense for him to have relocated assuming it was the same limbo just different areas or transfered to a "different" limbo than to wake up in the plane (which he couldn't have done considering they were drugged) and going straight into the 4th level on his own.

so the mal and cobb going straight to the 4th level would make sense independently, but because of the above, it is much more logical to assume that mal and cobb entered and left through the same rules, instead of coming up with new rules for every single different scenario. that just makes no sense at all.
 
DarkDragoon

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
_V_ said:
Do those Wavedashing My Anti-Brawl shirts still exist anywhere? I am feeling nostalgic and I want one.
Click to expand...
This.
I've seen Patric wear his like, 20 times, and now I'm feeling like I want one too.

EDIT:
<3 You Dazwa.
-DD
 
thumbswayup

thumbswayup

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,566
Location
wars not make one great
The more I think about it, the more I think the entire movie is a dream, although that's not what I thought when I first walked out of the theater. This is the kind of movie I truly cherish, because Nolan leaves it entirely up to interpretation and no matter how many times you see the movie you'll find something new in it to argue about each time. Also, did anyone else get that Cillian Murphy's character's name is BOBBY FISCHER and Ellen Page's totem is a bishop? It's a god**** chess mind **** game of insane proportions. I guess that would make Leo the king and Mal the queen and us the pawns lol I don't know where I'm going with this.
 
HollaAtchaBoy

HollaAtchaBoy

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Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
4,985
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203 nuggaaaaaaah
Christina Hendricks is currently giving me the measure of half-chub generally reserved for Zero-to-Death combos, and then some.

She's the only thing making Jimmy Fallon's show watchable.
 
Hazygoose

Hazygoose

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
1,999
Location
straight outta Locash
having employers younger than me
makes me feel hella ********
at least it's just part time
cannot wait to get a law degree
then my employers will just be old *****
 
DarkDragoon

DarkDragoon

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,694
Location
AZ
NNID
LordDarkDragoon
thumbswayup said:
The more I think about it, the more I think the entire movie is a dream, although that's not what I thought when I first walked out of the theater. This is the kind of movie I truly cherish, because Nolan leaves it entirely up to interpretation and no matter how many times you see the movie you'll find something new in it to argue about each time. Also, did anyone else get that Cillian Murphy's character's name is BOBBY FISCHER and Ellen Page's totem is a bishop? It's a god**** chess mind **** game of insane proportions. I guess that would make Leo the king and Mal the queen and us the pawns lol I don't know where I'm going with this.
Click to expand...
Bahaha.
That's clever and I'm sure it could be taken to some sort of absurd-yet-logical end.
-DD
 
Zombie Lucille Ball

Zombie Lucille Ball

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
3,823
Location
stop hitting me, Ricky
Hazygoose said:
eames was the one who stayed back on the "snow level." not that it's important but yeah. point being:

naw
and
duh

i saw where you were going at first...with mal and cobb...i guess it's never explained either way if they had entered 1 or more levels independently...but saito and cobb, how can you say they went straight to limbo when like over half of the movie is them doing otherwise. saito is the first person to go from 3->4, and even though it's not explained how leo goes from one section of limbo to another (the beach on saito's mind), it would make way more sense for him to have relocated assuming it was the same limbo just different areas or transfered to a "different" limbo than to wake up in the plane (which he couldn't have done considering they were drugged) and going straight into the 4th level on his own.

so the mal and cobb going straight to the 4th level would make sense independently, but because of the above, it is much more logical to assume that mal and cobb entered and left through the same rules, instead of coming up with new rules for every single different scenario. that just makes no sense at all.
Click to expand...
There is some debate regarding who's dream the snow level is. There are lines in the film itself that say it's Fischer's ("Why couldn't I have dreamed of a beach?") but that may just be misdirection and it really could have been Eames all along. That doesn't really matter, though. Can we agree that when Eames snowmobiles past the group of soldiers, throws a grenade at one, GIVES HIM A THUMBS UP, and then rides away while it explodes is the manliest thing ever?

I never said Saito & Cobb went straight to limbo...not sure where you got that from. They came straight OUT of limbo, though, because at that point the other dream-levels had vanished. I'm not remotely concerned with how Cobb got from the buildings part to the ocean compound part of limbo, since it's a shared dream-space. We already saw that that same compound is kind of Saito's default place earlier in the film so it would make sense that he would construct that as his home in limbo. Cobb "waking" in the ocean waves just re-enforces the themes of waking/dreaming and the 'rule' that you never really remember how you get to a place in a dream.

I guess the biggest plothole (something Nolan has a problem with sometimes) is how Cobb & Mal got to limbo on their own the first time. It's not terribly important to the larger story, and can be explained away with a little effort, but if you're running a fine-toothed comb over the movie it sticks a bit.

Dazwa said:
http://www.cafepress.com/sleepyk
Click to expand...
WTF IS YOUR AVATAR? Crono Carl??

thumbswayup said:
The more I think about it, the more I think the entire movie is a dream, although that's not what I thought when I first walked out of the theater. This is the kind of movie I truly cherish, because Nolan leaves it entirely up to interpretation and no matter how many times you see the movie you'll find something new in it to argue about each time. Also, did anyone else get that Cillian Murphy's character's name is BOBBY FISCHER and Ellen Page's totem is a bishop? It's a god**** chess mind **** game of insane proportions. I guess that would make Leo the king and Mal the queen and us the pawns lol I don't know where I'm going with this.
Click to expand...
Nice catch, re: Bobby Fischer! Have you read about the filmmaking metaphor the movie is, though? Cobb: Director (Leo based him on Nolan...they even look alike), Ariadne: Screenwriter, Arthur: Producer, Eames: Actor, Saito: Moneyman/studio head, Fischer: Audience. The best movies "incept" us. Make us realize/feel something when nothing we're seeing is "real".
Edit: even the totems kind of play this out, too: the director of a film has to keep everything precariously spinning upright like a top, the producer has to jury-rig things so they go according to plan, like loaded dice.

HollaAtchaBoy said:
Christina Hendricks is currently giving me the measure of half-chub generally reserved for Zero-to-Death combos, and then some.

She's the only thing making Jimmy Fallon's show watchable.
Click to expand...
Christina Hendricks gives me full raging chubb.
Mad Men is so good. I need to watch S3 asap so I can watch S4.
 
Jam Stunna

Jam Stunna

Writer of Fortune
BRoomer
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
6,450
Location
Hartford, CT
3DS FC
0447-6552-1484
Inception was awesome.

My theory is, in the next to last scene, Old Man Watanabe was incepting Cobb, since it was the only way he could keep his promise of making one phone call and sending him home.

Garrett, are you going to Vernon tonight?
 
P. O. F.

P. O. F.

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
820
Location
2008 Melee Player
Jam Stunna said:
Garrett, are you going to Vernon tonight?
Click to expand...
I have work until nine tonight. What time do people usually get there? Leave?

I've come to the conclusion that internet is the worst way to grow....period.

I think the order is Playing w people-Training Mode-Wifi.

I've been working on a few things with ibuki. Trying to improve my mix up game.
 
Jam Stunna

Jam Stunna

Writer of Fortune
BRoomer
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
6,450
Location
Hartford, CT
3DS FC
0447-6552-1484
Playing irl is preferrable of course, but I don't know about training mode being better than wi-fi. Granted, my character doesn't have the strictest timing in the world, although lag can mess up my charges.

EDIT- I should get there around 10:00 PM, and I'm not leaving until closing.
 
thumbswayup

thumbswayup

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,566
Location
wars not make one great
CogSmooch said:
There is some debate regarding who's dream the snow level is. There are lines in the film itself that say it's Fischer's ("Why couldn't I have dreamed of a beach?") but that may just be misdirection and it really could have been Eames all along. That doesn't really matter, though. Can we agree that when Eames snowmobiles past the group of soldiers, throws a grenade at one, GIVES HIM A THUMBS UP, and then rides away while it explodes is the manliest thing ever?

I never said Saito & Cobb went straight to limbo...not sure where you got that from. They came straight OUT of limbo, though, because at that point the other dream-levels had vanished. I'm not remotely concerned with how Cobb got from the buildings part to the ocean compound part of limbo, since it's a shared dream-space. We already saw that that same compound is kind of Saito's default place earlier in the film so it would make sense that he would construct that as his home in limbo. Cobb "waking" in the ocean waves just re-enforces the themes of waking/dreaming and the 'rule' that you never really remember how you get to a place in a dream.

I guess the biggest plothole (something Nolan has a problem with sometimes) is how Cobb & Mal got to limbo on their own the first time. It's not terribly important to the larger story, and can be explained away with a little effort, but if you're running a fine-toothed comb over the movie it sticks a bit.

WTF IS YOUR AVATAR? Crono Carl??

Nice catch, re: Bobby Fischer! Have you read about the filmmaking metaphor the movie is, though? Cobb: Director (Leo based him on Nolan...they even look alike), Ariadne: Screenwriter, Arthur: Producer, Eames: Actor, Saito: Moneyman/studio head, Fischer: Audience. The best movies "incept" us. Make us realize/feel something when nothing we're seeing is "real".
Edit: even the totems kind of play this out, too: the director of a film has to keep everything precariously spinning upright like a top, the producer has to jury-rig things so they go according to plan, like loaded dice.

Christina Hendricks gives me full raging chubb.
Mad Men is so good. I need to watch S3 asap so I can watch S4.
Click to expand...
Yup, that was a great read. And I never even thought to compare Leo and Nolan in terms of looks before and now they look like brothers to me, it's ****ing creepy.

Jam Stunna said:
Inception was awesome.

My theory is, in the next to last scene, Old Man Watanabe was incepting Cobb, since it was the only way he could keep his promise of making one phone call and sending him home.
Click to expand...
I never even thought of that.
 
P. O. F.

P. O. F.

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
820
Location
2008 Melee Player
Inception was great but it definitely had its flaws.

For one, it took waayyyyy too long to explain why everything was happening in the first place. Lol. I was sitting there for an hour and 20 thinking to myself "this is all cool abd all but why are they doing this ****?"
 
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