Congratulations, Min Min! ARMS character(s) for Smash discussion

[Sigran101]

That's okay, it's an honest mistake.


Well the way I see it, if they're all put together as a 4-in-1 fighter, I think the only animations that would need to be changed would be their idle, their taunts, and their victory animations. Aside from that, given their average heights being rather similar, they could use the same punches, kicks and whatnot as eachother. But I totally understand where you're coming from here.


I guess I see what you mean there, though my argument was never that they should be alts instead of Echoes, but rather I'm trying to put together how they could be alts of eachother. Personally I don't really mind either, though I think at this point given how this DLC seems to be the last batch and that each of them lists a single fighter with each Challenger Pack, it's very unlikely we'll be getting any more Echoes.


Nah, it's fine. I sometimes unintentionally do stuff like that from time to time as well.


No problem, and thanks for being willing to calmly talk this out.

The changes you mentioned would constitute an echo, but I suppose I could see them bending the rules a bit for dlc, and since the ARMS characters are super close to working as alts even if they're not quite there.

I think Springman's ability would be fine on all four, and Min Min and Ninjara's abilities being visual effects could be okay, even if it's not the ideal way to represent them. The problem, I think, is Ribbongirl's extra jumps. No matter what visual effects they use, I just can't imagine Springman having extra jumps. It would be too weird. I think the only solution would be to not use Ribbongirl's ability. That would be a bit of a misrepresentation, but not nearly as outrageous than Dark Samus' moveset misrepresentation, so I guess it's possible.

As long as they bend the rules and give them some unique animations, I could see it happening I guess. It would just depend on whether Sakurai is willing to blur the lines between alts and echoes.

Thank you for giving a real argument. Most people promoting this idea just go "They all have stretchy arms lol" and don't consider how differences would have to be handled or understand that there's more to them than that.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

As long as they bend the rules and give them some unique animations, I could see it happening I guess. It would just depend on whether Sakurai is willing to blur the lines between alts and echoes.

He already blurred the line between echo and unique with and , so I wouldn't doubt it much.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He already blurred the line between echo and unique with and , so I wouldn't doubt it much.

To be fair, isn't Ken an Echo mainly for legacy reasons? Being the first clone in a fighting game and all?

 

[Guynamednelson]

To be fair, isn't Ken an Echo mainly for legacy reasons? Being the first clone in a fighting game and all?

Also because he has the same body shape as Ryu, and his weight, jump height etc. were not changed despite his walk/run speed.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

To be fair, isn't Ken an Echo mainly for legacy reasons? Being the first clone in a fighting game and all?

That is true. Still stands for Isabelle though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Also because he has the same body shape as Ryu, and his weight, jump height etc. were not changed despite his walk/run speed.

Being fair, those similarities also exist in Street Fighter (except weight because of how different Smash is), so it's not really that big of a deal.

But I still feel it's mostly due to legacy because they have way too many differences.

 

[kirbsmash]

Who here is hoping for the champ?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Who here is hoping for the champ?

I made a thread, so I sure am lmao

Shameless plug to said thread

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Always room for more clown art on April Fools!

Lola Pop #ARMS pic.twitter.com/W9T1cUVaHL

— Mama Mess (@mess_sama) April 1, 2020

 

[smashkirby]

Having officially given ARMS a proper try, I'm in a weird position where I want a specific character and a specific stage: Mechanica and Ramen Bowl.

Mechanica's my current favorite (and no, it's not just because I like the girl-in-a-mech trope that Tron Bonne and D.va follow). She'd make a unique heavyweight with decent projectiles and smashes from the Homie rockets and hammers.

Ramen Bowl is my favorite stage, just from aesthetics alone. How well it would translate into Smash, I don't know, but I just really dig it.

And to round it all off, music. We NEED Ribbon Ring.

Wow, I feel the same way! Mostly in regards to Mechanica being the playable ARMS rep and all the other stuff you mentioned.

 

[SwitchButton]

I think the only animations that would need to be changed would be their idle, their taunts, and their victory animations.

And their walking, running, crouching, jumping, and falling animations. Which cannot all happen with an alt costume. This is FOUR characters worth of animation work. I don't get what part of "DAISY" you're missing.

To be fair, isn't Ken an Echo mainly for legacy reasons? Being the first clone in a fighting game and all?

Because Ken being a costume would misrepresent the character. The same way the ARMS cast being costumes would misrepresent them.

 

[Sigran101]

And their walking, running, crouching, jumping, and falling animations. Which cannot all happen with an alt costume. This is FOUR characters worth of animation work. I don't get what part of "DAISY" you're missing.



Because Ken being a costume would misrepresent the character. The same way the ARMS cast being costumes would misrepresent them.

I agree on the first part, but I think they're saying Ken blurs the lines in the other direction. He's closer to a semi clone like Isabel.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Because Ken being a costume would misrepresent the character. The same way the ARMS cast being costumes would misrepresent them.

I meant being branded as an Echo rather than having his own fighter number like fellow semi-clone Isabelle got.

 

[SwitchButton]

I meant being branded as an Echo rather than having his own fighter number like fellow semi-clone Isabelle got.

Ah I see.

 

[Sigran101]

I meant being branded as an Echo rather than having his own fighter number like fellow semi-clone Isabelle got.

To be fair, Isabel had a lot more differences than Ken.

 

[fogbadge]

when i first saw the video i thought it was gonna be another terry trailer, where it takes forever for us to see who the character is. took me a moment to realize it was arms

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You might think the approach taken will be super-faithful, but I won't overlook the possibility of the Smash staff doing yet another liberal take for a first party, whether it's done minimally or not. They've done this many times before.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To be fair, Isabel had a lot more differences than Ken.

But Ken also has more differences than some of the non-Echo clones, right?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

But Ken also has more differences than some of the non-Echo clones, right?

Him and Chrom both, Chrom took Ike’s up B despite him being designated Roy’s Echo

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Him and Chrom both, Chrom took Ike’s up B despite him being designated Roy’s Echo

Being fair, that is the only unique move Chrom has from Roy, and some clones have had unique moves before Ultimate , so it's not unprecedented

 

[Spatman]

Simply trying to look at this from Nintendo's point of view, the announcement generally reinvigorated the fanbase for the game (whether thats good or bad, doesn't matter, its more attention) and the fact they didn't reveal exactly who it is further increases this attention to the game (as well as ARMS, which is likely the ulterior motive) so it ends up being a win win situation for their company.

Besides, many people were expecting a ARMS character in the base game so the announcement came as an initial surprise but I think has been received well enough due to people accepting it as a recent first party IP.

Yes, its unfortunate that we have to do so much waiting but isn't that a good problem to have? As oppose to having nothing to look forward to? No FP2?

mmm, I think you are right, from this perspective it has muche sense

paadoxically, tho, I was quiet before the reveal, I felt we should have waited some months before knowing new informations about FP2; since ARMS character reveal, instead, I feel like I can't wait anymore, hahah

 

[GolisoPower]

Okay, guys, big idea:

Do you guys think the ARMS character will release on the day E3 2020 was supposed to start? (June 9-11) I mean, think about it: E3 was gonna be a big event, and that event had always been a good time and place to reveal new fighters, whether it's PAC-MAN, Ridley, Hero or Banjo & Kazooie. Revealing whoever the ARMS character is on that date would make sense, regardless of whether or not E3 was gonna be canceled.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Okay, guys, big idea:

Do you guys think the ARMS character will release on the day E3 2020 was supposed to start? (June 9-11) I mean, think about it: E3 was gonna be a big event, and it that event had always been a good time and place to reveal new fighters, whether it's PAC-MAN, Ridley, Hero or Banjo & Kazooie. Revealing whoever the ARMS character is on that date would make sense, regardless of whether or not E3 was gonna be canceled.

You might be on to something there, it would make sense. Bonus points if there is another character trailer reveal sometime afterwards, depending on the current industry situation at that point.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Got this in my feed.

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel that the series of origin was revealed just so they won't feel pressured to make a CGI trailer, and just get on with in-engine scenes.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I feel that the series of origin was revealed just so they won't feel pressured to make a CGI trailer, and just get on with in-engine scenes.

I always felt that first-party trailers could use in-game 3D assets from their game of origin, so long as they're high-quality enough that nobody will be the wiser when they first see them.

So far, is the only character to even use Ultimate gameplay assets in their standalone reveal trailer due to their very nature as a bonus character, so I'm honestly not sure if they'd treat the ARMS fighter the same as a silly one-off.

Also, getting a gameplay trailer might be problematic anyway with the current state of affairs.

 

[Perkilator]

I feel that the series of origin was revealed just so they won't feel pressured to make a CGI trailer, and just get on with in-engine scenes.

Or maybe there IS a CG trailer, but they just revealed the series because it may not be finished yet and Digital Frontier didn’t want to feel rushed complete it?

 

[MrElectroG64]

Hey everyone, just gonna paste this here from the general DLC Character Speculation Thread. I haven't posted in this thread yet, but have been discussing the ARMS rep in detail in the main DLC one, and would like to start discussing it here too!

"Hey everyone. I just now cobbled together a quick little image that shows how even some of the most unlikeliest of characters can actually be alternate costumes of Springman! I'm a fairly firm believer that the ARMS fighter will indeed be Springman with at least a few of the other ARMS characters as alts, namely Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and Min Min. That being said, we could also get a fighter more in line with Bowser Jr., in that every single palette swap for the fighter is an alternate costume for a totally different character! I already listed who some of them could be in a post a while ago, being: Ribbon, Ninjara, Min Min, Byte, Lola Pop, Misango, Springtron and Coyle, with Springman as the base, of course, but I also suggested the idea that some of the characters whose models might not work 1-1 with springman's skeleton right off the bat could actually be altered in some ways in order to fit in well enough to look good as an alt for him. Well, this image is exactly that!

Here's a link to it on Flickr, since Smashboards likely won't let you view it at its full size and resolution here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/184893183@N07/49729021982/in/dateposted-public/


I know it won't be a very popular opinion to have all eight palette swaps be totally different alternate costumes, however I merely wanted to detail that it could actually be possible as an option for an ARMS fighter! At least, more possible than many might have thought. I recognize that if characters like Helix, Dr. Coyle or Lola wouldn't be able to use their special abilities at all as alts, but honestly, with how crowded and complicated the ARMS character will inevitably be already, I doubt any kind of special ability would really be added to an ARMS character's moveset at ALL, unless its one of the more simple ones, like Springman or Ribbon Girl's. Abilities like Helix's would more than likely bar him from being playable on his own at all...

Anyways, let me know what you guys think of it! Also, sorry for any spelling or grammatical errors if you find any, I usually make these kinds of images on my phone when I'm bored, and you know how phone keyboards are lol."

 

[SwitchButton]

Hey everyone, just gonna paste this here from the general DLC Character Speculation Thread. I haven't posted in this thread yet, but have been discussing the ARMS rep in detail in the main DLC one, and would like to start discussing it here too!

"Hey everyone. I just now cobbled together a quick little image that shows how even some of the most unlikeliest of characters can actually be alternate costumes of Springman! I'm a fairly firm believer that the ARMS fighter will indeed be Springman with at least a few of the other ARMS characters as alts, namely Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and Min Min. That being said, we could also get a fighter more in line with Bowser Jr., in that every single palette swap for the fighter is an alternate costume for a totally different character! I already listed who some of them could be in a post a while ago, being: Ribbon, Ninjara, Min Min, Byte, Lola Pop, Misango, Springtron and Coyle, with Springman as the base, of course, but I also suggested the idea that some of the characters whose models might not work 1-1 with springman's skeleton right off the bat could actually be altered in some ways in order to fit in well enough to look good as an alt for him. Well, this image is exactly that!

Here's a link to it on Flickr, since Smashboards likely won't let you view it at its full size and resolution here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/184893183@N07/49729021982/in/dateposted-public/


I know it won't be a very popular opinion to have all eight palette swaps be totally different alternate costumes, however I merely wanted to detail that it could actually be possible as an option for an ARMS fighter! At least, more possible than many might have thought. I recognize that if characters like Helix, Dr. Coyle or Lola wouldn't be able to use their special abilities at all as alts, but honestly, with how crowded and complicated the ARMS character will inevitably be already, I doubt any kind of special ability would really be added to an ARMS character's moveset at ALL, unless its one of the more simple ones, like Springman or Ribbon Girl's. Abilities like Helix's would more than likely bar him from being playable on his own at all...

Anyways, let me know what you guys think of it! Also, sorry for any spelling or grammatical errors if you find any, I usually make these kinds of images on my phone when I'm bored, and you know how phone keyboards are lol."

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how animation and model rigs work. Your image blatantly shows it it's straight up impossible for it to be more then one character. Look at how unnatural Helix looks. Look at how much wider Max's shoulders and waistline are. Literally none of your overlaps work. You know these characters would need to share a skeleton, yes?

 

[MrElectroG64]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how animation and model rigs work. Your image blatantly shows it it's straight up impossible for it to be more then one character. Look at how unnatural Helix looks. Look at how much wider Max's shoulders and waistline are. Literally none of your overlaps work. You know these characters would need to share a skeleton, yes?

Elaborate then, please. How does it "blatantly show it it's straight up impossible for it to be more then one character"? And yes, I realize they have to share a skeleton, considering the image is about exactly that. This exact thing is already in smash in the form of the Koopalings, and multiple characters in ultimate have altered animations between their alternate costumes, so I genuinely have no idea what I'm missing here.

EDIT: Helix hardly looks changed, what do you mean? Characters have their proportions messed with all the time in smash. Look at Olimar/Alph, for example. They both are proportionally very different from each other in Pikmin 3, yet they're alternate costumes of each other in smash. Literally the same situation as Helix. Max Brass also is completely fine. With the slight alterations given to him in figure 3, he still fits perfectly onto the same skeleton as springman. Just because his muscles are bigger than springman's doesn't mean that he can't still fit onto the skeleton. Brass's shoulders being beefier literally means nothing. Another example of proportions being changed around drastically in smash would be Bayonetta, who was changed to have the proportions of a regular woman. His waste size is severely skewed by how his legs are bent outward, vs springman having his legs almost touching in comparison.

No matter way I slice it, I just don't see where your argument has any merrit. Every single thing that I listed in my image has literally already happened before in smash.

 

[SwitchButton]

This exact thing is already in smash in the form of the Koopalings

The koopalings' deformed bodies are utterly disgusting to look at in Smash, which is why they are hidden inside of a clown car, whom is the one to do all of the animating and fighting. They're glorified hats for the clown car. If Jr had the fight on his own then the Koopalings would not be in the game.
With this argument you're basically saying that Snake and Ryu can be alt costumes for one another because they both wear bandanas and have exposed brunette hair

Helix hardly looks changed, what do you mean?

You gave him uncanny long legs and wide shoulders, and the fact that you had to give him a beefy chest to match spring man shows how nonsensical this all is. Also, how is Helix to animate? Helix can't run. At all.

Characters have their proportions messed with all the time in smash.

Not to the point where it betrays their character and looks like a Brawl mod. Even if the Koopalings look gross they still look like their normal recolor selves while in the clown car

Look at Olimar/Alph, for example. They both are proportionally very different from each other in Pikmin 3

Olimar and Alph are essentially the exact same character in design and function and they share 100% of their animations in Pikmin 3. They walk the same, they whistle the same, they throw pikmin the same. Alph is a fraction shorter then Olimar.

With the slight alterations given to him in figure 3, he still fits perfectly onto the same skeleton as springman

Then why can I very clearly see his body fading outside of springmans? Thats not okay for costumes. In your edit Max's shoulder's are too wide, his legs are too tall and too far apart, his waist is too high. You can clearly see that Max's belt line goes over Spring Man's shirtline. How would that animate? Would Spring Man's torso become a deformed waist whenever he bent in any direction? Alt costumes cannot alter the skeleton or the hitboxes in any way.

No matter way I slice it, I just don't see where your argument has any merrit.

"It works cause I say it would" does not qualify as "slicing it". You haven't actually given any kind of explanation or evidence as to how a possible alt costume could work.

 

[meleebrawler]

I always felt that first-party trailers could use in-game 3D assets from their game of origin, so long as they're high-quality enough that nobody will be the wiser when they first see them.

So far, is the only character to even use Ultimate gameplay assets in their standalone reveal trailer due to their very nature as a bonus character, so I'm honestly not sure if they'd treat the ARMS fighter the same as a silly one-off.

Also, getting a gameplay trailer might be problematic anyway with the current state of affairs.

Ryu and Bayonetta's trailers were pure gameplay, even though the former tries to disguise it with the SFII Championship-styled opening. And we were told by Sakurai near the beginning of DLC for this game to not expect CGI trailers for every fighter, so I don't really believe in any supposed patterns regarding this.

I thought first-parties were handled nicely in the last few years and that the stuff that makes them feel "close enough" is simply creative liberties since Nintendo games tend to be so simplistic in nature that Smash is essentially where they have their biggest moveset.

And when it feels off for a character, it instead is a reference to a mechanic.

For example, I'm not too fond of how Byleth's moveset is because carrying the house leaders' weapons is weird... but it still means she's using the entire weapon triangle or sword, lance and axe, which is a staple in Fire Emblem. Or how Robin has durability in his weapons.

Or for a non-FE example, Inkling. Sure, you can't ink the stage like in Splatoon, but Inkling is still very good at controlling the stage, and what are Turf Wars all about? Controlling turf.

Incineroar is also really well done from a design perspective. He looks like a wrestler and plays like a wrestler, even taunting when landing moves.

It's all creative liberties to make up for how simplistic the games are.

The only character I can agree is really off even if you look at it with creative liberties in mind is Isabelle. This is a character that, in my opinion, was only shoved in the playable cast because of popularity because, hot take, her being an Assist in 4 was literally the most perfect role for her.

As for Ryu, I imagine SF2 just didn't have a big enough amount of moves, so he had to borrow from SF3 and 4 for his fsmash and down b respectively.


Challenger Pack 12 - Satoru Iwata himself

Actually you do ink the stage with Inkling's Splat Roller. They just don't make it the focus of the character.

It's ironic that Byleth is the one to rep the weapon triangle, when he's from a game that doesn't actually have it, at best remnants via skills. Then again I've always been of the mind the triangle is not as essential to the series as some try to pass it off as, and Byleth using them is just as likely to be repping the titular three house leaders instead.

Now, it's time to ask some serious questions about everyone considering lumping multiple ARMS fighters in one. Is it because you're so determined to have your playable ARMS representation cake and eat it too you would do anything to ensure as many as possible don't get restricted to cameos? Or is it because you feel that ARMS gameplay is so shallow you have to lump several fighters together to make them even remotely interesting to use?

 

[Perkilator]

Now, it's time to ask some serious questions about everyone considering lumping multiple ARMS fighters in one. Is it because you're so determined to have your playable ARMS representation cake and eat it too you would do anything to ensure as many as possible don't get restricted to cameos? Or is it because you feel that ARMS gameplay is so shallow you have to lump several fighters together to make them even remotely interesting to use?

I think it might be the latter. It’s most likely the thought process who took a small glance at ARMS and assumed every character played the exact same.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It's ironic that Byleth is the one to rep the weapon triangle, when he's from a game that doesn't actually have it, at best remnants via skills. Then again I've always been of the mind the triangle is not as essential to the series as some try to pass it off as, and Byleth using them is just as likely to be repping the titular three house leaders instead.

Byleth wielding the triangle still represents how Three Houses pretty much broke how classes work by making most weapon types available regardless of class.

And honestly? There are so many sword wielders in the Fire Emblem series as a whole that the weapon triangle was skewed to the point where it was actually shaped like a sword

 

[MattX20]

How many music tracks do you expect to come with the ARMS rep? Given that it's a new IP and Nintendo owns lock, stock, and barrel, my guess is more than 12 tracks.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

How many music tracks do you expect to come with the ARMS rep? Given that it's a new IP and Nintendo owns lock, stock, and barrel, my guess is more than 12 tracks.

I could see them do like with Street Fighter and just give us every character theme, so 15.

And obiously the main theme too on top of that, and a remix of it, so 17.

It's a lot, but it's also super basic because I didn't go over Hedlok themes or side modes.

 

[MattX20]

I could see them do like with Street Fighter and just give us every character theme, so 15.

And obiously the main theme too, maybe a remix of it on top of that, so 17.

20 tracks would probably be the absolute most we can expect

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

20 tracks would probably be the absolute most we can expect

I don't really see more than 20 myself, yeah.

Somewhere between 15-20 is a safe guess, imo.

 

[SwitchButton]

How many music tracks do you expect to come with the ARMS rep? Given that it's a new IP and Nintendo owns lock, stock, and barrel, my guess is more than 12 tracks.

All of them I hope. ARMS only has like 20-ish tracks. At the very least every stage theme + Hedlok.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

How many music tracks do you expect to come with the ARMS rep? Given that it's a new IP and Nintendo owns lock, stock, and barrel, my guess is more than 12 tracks.

At least half normal/remixed, the rest in a medley.

Byleth wielding the triangle still represents how Three Houses pretty much broke how classes work by making most weapon types available regardless of class.

And honestly? There are so many sword wielders in the Fire Emblem series as a whole that the weapon triangle was skewed to the point where it was actually shaped like a sword

I found it amusing that after Chrom, that was the hair that broke the camel`s back for Sak and he made sure Byleth would have a little more variety.

I mean, lordy, even Fire Emblem Warriors heavily favored sword users.