Congratulations, Min Min! ARMS character(s) for Smash discussion

[Kirbeh]

So is the next 2 months going to be a lot of arguments about if we could have alts of other characters or not? Getting a little tiresome. If it happens it happens if not it doesn't. Lets not keep fighting about this...

It really is an agree to disagree sort of deal isn't it? Though arguing over who its going to be seems like it's going to prevalent regardless of whether there's focus on the alts thing or not. Narrowing down who it might be, but still not telling us who it is certainly does seem to complicate speculation in it's own way.

When Misango gets revealed Im sure his one fan will be ecstatic!

Nah, they'll be happy on the inside, but will try to maintain an appearance of indifference so as not to oust themselves as the one Misango fan.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

This is what happens when we're only told hints, unfortunately.

You think they might drop another hint shortly before the character’s reveal?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You think they might drop another hint shortly before the character’s reveal?

They outright said they wouldn't say more until the release, right?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

They outright said they wouldn't say more until the release, right?

Did they? I don’t recall

but if that’s true then... welp. This’ll be torture

 

[Perkilator]

Anyways, here’s my concept for a Ramen Bowl stage:

Spoiler: Ramen Bowl Stage Concept

Game of Origin: ARMS (2017)


Description: The Ramen Bowl is an arena with a giant bowl in the middle. There is a gong in the background and tons of audience outside the arena. Other ARMS characters (such as Spring Man*, Twintelle, and Max Brass, just to name a few) make cameo appearances in the background.


*The Spring Man Assist Trophy is disabled on this stage.


Layout: The stage is basically one big downward half-circle with a large flat surface in the center. Platforms shaped like plates occasionally appear from opposite sides.


Gimmicks and Hazards: The red center of the stage will sometimes break if fighters hit it enough times while fighting. The platforms appear a couple seconds before the center breaks, so there could be a more stable fight. When the center breaks, there’s a 50/50 chance it will reveal either a spider web trampoline (taken from the Mausoleum stage) or a bottomless pit. After 35 seconds, the gong bangs with green dragon aura around it, and the center is repaired.


When the center is intact, drones will occasionally fly by and drop items. The items they drop are:


-HP Juice: Functionally identical to the Healing Field, so THAT item is disabled.

-Rush Juice: Increases the fighters’ attack and speed, but slightly lowers their defense. It also slowly fills up their Final Smash Meter, but only when it’s turned on.

-Fire Bomb: A giant bomb that explodes in a huge radius, ignoring shields (35%, far knockback)

-Shock Bomb: A giant bomb that explodes in the same radius as the fire bomb, but fighters caught in the explosion are stunned for a couple seconds (35%, medium knockback)


Music:
-Grand Prix (Main Theme)~New Remix

-Spring Stadium~New Remix

-Ribbon Ring

-Ninja College~New Remix

-Mausoleum~New Remix

-Ramen Bowl~New Remix

-Scrapyard

-Cinema Deux~New Remix

-Buster Beach

-Snake Park

-DNA Lab~New Remix

-Sky Arena~New Remix

-Via Dolce~New Remix

-Temple Grounds

-Sparring Ring

-[NAME REDACTED]

-Vs. Hedlok~New Remix

 

[Kirbeh]

Anyways, here’s my concept for a Ramen Bowl stage:

Spoiler: Ramen Bowl Stage Concept

Game of Origin: ARMS (2017)


Description: The Ramen Bowl is an arena with a giant bowl in the middle. There is a gong in the background and tons of audience outside the arena. Other ARMS characters (such as Spring Man*, Twintelle, and Max Brass, just to name a few) make cameo appearances in the background.


*The Spring Man Assist Trophy is disabled on this stage.


Layout: The stage is basically one big downward half-circle with a large flat surface in the center. Platforms shaped like plates occasionally appear from opposite sides.


Gimmicks and Hazards: The red center of the stage will sometimes break if fighters hit it enough times while fighting. The platforms appear a couple seconds before the center breaks, so there could be a more stable fight. When the center breaks, there’s a 50/50 chance it will reveal either a spider web trampoline (taken from the Mausoleum stage) or a bottomless pit. After 35 seconds, the gong bangs with green dragon aura around it, and the center is repaired.


When the center is intact, drones will occasionally fly by and drop items. The items they drop are:


-HP Juice: Functionally identical to the Healing Field, so THAT item is disabled.

-Rush Juice: Increases the fighters’ attack and speed, but slightly lowers their defense. It also slowly fills up their Final Smash Meter, but only when it’s turned on.

-Fire Bomb: A giant bomb that explodes in a huge radius, ignoring shields (35%, far knockback)

-Shock Bomb: A giant bomb that explodes in the same radius as the fire bomb, but fighters caught in the explosion are stunned for a couple seconds (35%, medium knockback)


Music:

-Grand Prix (Main Theme)~New Remix

-Spring Stadium~New Remix

-Ribbon Ring

-Ninja College~New Remix

-Mausoleum~New Remix

-Ramen Bowl~New Remix

-Scrapyard

-Cinema Deux~New Remix

-Buster Beach

-Snake Park

-DNA Lab~New Remix

-Sky Arena~New Remix

-Via Dolce~New Remix

-Temple Grounds

-Sparring Ring

-[NAME REDACTED]

-Vs. Hedlok~New Remix

Neat concept, I especially like that you managed to squeeze in something from the Mausoleum stage.

Not going to lie though, when I opened the spoiler tab, I fully expected to just be greeted by a picture of an actual ramen bowl.

 

[GolisoPower]

Hey...which Mii Costumes should come with the ARMS character?

I mean, they'd obviously include the Heihachi because of the fighting game connection, but what else?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Hey...which Mii Costumes should come with the ARMS character?

I mean, they'd obviously include the Heihachi because of the fighting game connection, but what else?

I think it's going to be another repeat of Banjo and Byleth's waves. So if anything we should predict which indie character is getting the deluxe Mii costume treatment.

 

[GolisoPower]

I think it's going to be another repeat of Banjo and Byleth's waves. So if anything we should predict which indie character is getting the deluxe Mii costume treatment.

Then, in that case, I'd want Ori as a Deluxe Mii Costume with "Light of Nibel". That song is absolutely banger and I'd love to fight to that.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think it's going to be another repeat of Banjo and Byleth's waves. So if anything we should predict which indie character is getting the deluxe Mii costume treatment.

If it's an indie.

They could always throw a curveball and give us something like Geno.

 

[Voe]

Hey...which Mii Costumes should come with the ARMS character?

I mean, they'd obviously include the Heihachi because of the fighting game connection, but what else?

Heihachi or some other Tekken character as a mii costume would be cool. But then there's always the possibility that we could end up with a Banjo & Kazooie situation where the costumes that come with the next fighter end up being completely unrelated to ARMS or any type of fighting genre.

 

[zferolie]

Hey...which Mii Costumes should come with the ARMS character?

I mean, they'd obviously include the Heihachi because of the fighting game connection, but what else?

As long as Shantae doesnt get mii'd im good

If it's an indie.

They could always throw a curveball and give us something like Geno.

Oh man i can just imagine the rage if that happened

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Oh man i can just imagine the rage if that happened

Oh, there'd be rage.

But there'd be even more rage if there was no Geno at all.

 

[MrElectroG64]

What if Sakurai just went full madman and made an ARMS fighter that had multiple characters as Alts that almost were echoes of each other? Like, have all their stats be the same, but maybe have a single special move or something that is dedicated to that character's specific special ability, then have that be interchangeable between each palette? In terms of development time, it'd be on par with Hero I'd imagine, since he had a sort of similar situation. After that, just tweak some of the animations of the few characters in the alts list that may benefit from it the most, like Dr. Coyle, who floats for her idle and movement, or Byte, who is much more rigid in his movemet.

It's a crazy idea, one that hasn't happened before in smash, but I feel like it's something sakurai would do in the name of being the unpredictable madman he is.

 

[Kirbeh]

What if Sakurai just went full madman and made an ARMS fighter that had multiple characters as Alts that almost were echoes of each other? Like, have all their stats be the same, but maybe have a single special move or something that is dedicated to that character's specific special ability, then have that be interchangeable between each palette? In terms of development time, it'd be on par with Hero I'd imagine, since he had a sort of similar situation. After that, just tweak some of the animations of the few characters in the alts list that may benefit from it the most, like Dr. Coyle, who floats for her idle and movement, or Byte, who is much more rigid in his movemet.

It's a crazy idea, one that hasn't happened before in smash, but I feel like it's something sakurai would do in the name of being the unpredictable madman he is.

I mean, at that point they aren't almost echoes, they just are. What does and doesn't count as an Echo is already vague and inconsistent as it is. If you give them all a major difference, then at that point you defeat the purpose of making them into alts.

I'd would gladly accept 8 ARMS characters all at once that are kinda/sorta Echoes or semi-clones of each other since they already are to a degree in their own game, but I don't see it working out that way for our DLC spot.

 

[GolisoPower]

How many are in favor of just having multiple ARMS characters as a Pokemon Trainer-type character, with the "Trainer" role being filled by Biff?

It'll include a good bunch of characters into a single slot, and making a good chunk of fans happy. I don't know how many people like Pokemon Trainer or a specific Pokemon in the Trainer's command, but it would appease multiple character fanbases at once.

 

[Kirbeh]

How many are in favor of just having multiple ARMS characters as a Pokemon Trainer-type character, with the "Trainer" role being filled by Biff?

It'll include a good bunch of characters into a single slot, and making a good chunk of fans happy. I don't know how many people like Pokemon Trainer or a specific Pokemon in the Trainer's command, but it would appease multiple character fanbases at once.

It works for because that's exactly how Pokemon works. it's a representation of trainers and the series overall. The latter bit is what some hope for as a means for including some other ARMS characters as alts. That said, having them take PT's gimmick is a bigger stretch than the multiple alts idea.

Moreover, PT is still 3 separate characters. Taking the time to make 3 different characters for ARMS as DLC under a smaller team, and under poor circumstances due to COVID throwing a wrench in things just isn't feasible, let alone reasonable.

Even if we did get multiple characters, I doubt they'd be lumped together like that. There'd be no need to so, nor would it make thematic sense.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

stretch

HA!

But yeah, it makes no sense to have a PT-like idea. It would make more sense to take that concept and use it for the ARMS instead.

 

[Perkilator]

It works for because that's exactly how Pokemon works. it's a representation of trainers and the series overall. The latter bit is what some hope for as a means for including some other ARMS characters as alts. That said, having them take PT's gimmick is a bigger stretch than the multiple alts idea.

Moreover, PT is still 3 separate characters. Taking the time to make 3 different characters for ARMS as DLC under a smaller team, and under poor circumstances due to COVID throwing a wrench in things just isn't feasible, let alone reasonable.

Even if we did get multiple characters, I doubt they'd be lumped together like that. There'd be no need to so, nor would it make thematic sense.

THIS right here is exactly how I felt about .

 

[Trevenant]

Hey...which Mii Costumes should come with the ARMS character?

I mean, they'd obviously include the Heihachi because of the fighting game connection, but what else?

Just go full circle and add the other iconic fighting game franchises not yet represented. Scorpion and Sol Badguy. Both very distinct and are very influential within the genre. Bonus points if they add Goku if they consider him a FG character to blow the roof off the internet but I know that’s a long shot. A mii costume is the most he’ll probably get anyways

How many are in favor of just having multiple ARMS characters as a Pokemon Trainer-type character, with the "Trainer" role being filled by Biff?

It'll include a good bunch of characters into a single slot, and making a good chunk of fans happy. I don't know how many people like Pokemon Trainer or a specific Pokemon in the Trainer's command, but it would appease multiple character fanbases at once.

Depends on how it’s handled. It wouldn’t make much sense if they had switching as there is no real reason that would correctly represent arms. It worked well for Pokemon because switching is such a major mechanic there and shiek and Zelda before because you know spoiler for 20 year old game. Zero Suit Samus doesn’t make as much sense canon wise but it certainly does make sense when you consider that the suits Power was used up after using a final smash it does make some sense and it makes a little more if you take into consideration the context behind zero mission.

I could get behind something people proposed for the Chorus Men where Biff is in the background but just aesthetically but then there wouldn’t be much point and even then Biff isn’t really an instructor like the conductor is to the chorus men or the trainer is to the Pokemon. A fun idea I had was Biff could do cameos for the dlc characters specifically. They are the only characters who lack Palutenas Guidances and it would be a lot less work than having to do it for 70+ characters and it also may seem redundant doing both anyway considering not much has changed between 4 and Ultimate in comparison to Brawl and 4

 

[Kirbeh]

THIS right here is exactly how I felt about .

Glad I'm not the only one. I wanted Byleth to get in and was actually hyped when they were revealed. Then I saw the move set... I'm still glad that they made it, but boy do I wish they;d gone in a different direction with their moves.

EDIT: I'm assuming here you mean Byleth using the other weapons was disappointing, but I just realized you might be referring to people who wanted a PT style character with Byleth commanding the 3 Lords.

 

[MrElectroG64]

I mean, at that point they aren't almost echoes, they just are. What does and doesn't count as an Echo is already vague and inconsistent as it is. If you give them all a major difference, then at that point you defeat the purpose of making them into alts.

I'd would gladly accept 8 ARMS characters all at once that are kinda/sorta Echoes or semi-clones of each other since they already are to a degree in their own game, but I don't see it working out that way for our DLC spot.

I might have worded that a bit wrong, but yeah just echoes that are counted as alts and selectable the same way alts would be. It's definitely an out there idea, but something that's possible, unexpected and somehow at the same time exactly like something sakurai would do, that everyone would have sworn up and down was impossible before he does it (many such cases).

 

[Perkilator]

Glad I'm not the only one. I wanted Byleth to get in and was actually hyped when they were revealed. Then I saw the move set... I'm still glad that they made it, but boy do I wish they;d gone in a different direction with their moves.

EDIT: I'm assuming here you mean Byleth using the other weapons was disappointing, but I just realized you might be referring to people who wanted a PT style character with Byleth commanding the 3 Lords.

Yes, the latter, but I do somewhat agree with the former (especially with no Crest of Flames anywhere).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I might have worded that a bit wrong, but yeah just echoes that are counted as alts and selectable the same way alts would be. It's definitely an out there idea, but something that's possible, unexpected and somehow at the same time exactly like something sakurai would do, that everyone would have sworn up and down was impossible before he does it (many such cases).

So basically, this?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think it's going to be another repeat of Banjo and Byleth's waves. So if anything we should predict which indie character is getting the deluxe Mii costume treatment.

We got Spring Man and Ribbon Girl in the defaults so they could easily expand on it with more ARMS characters. But I think they'll do a grab bag of random characters.

 

[Kirbeh]

I might have worded that a bit wrong, but yeah just echoes that are counted as alts and selectable the same way alts would be. It's definitely an out there idea, but something that's possible, unexpected and somehow at the same time exactly like something sakurai would do, that everyone would have sworn up and down was impossible before he does it (many such cases).

It'd be interesting for sure and Echoes do already have the option of being stacked on the CSS, but its also kind of my problem how they handled things this time around. Merging multiple characters on the CSS doesn't mean there are less characters being added to the actual workload, it just appeases people who don't like clones (who still aren't happy that they exist to begin with.) Plus that just feels more cluttered to me from a UI standpoint.

It basically be "Echoes can be stacked or separate, but not these ones though. They're treated like alts, because reasons."

 

[MrElectroG64]

It'd be interesting for sure and Echoes do already have the option of being stacked on the CSS, but its also kind of my problem how they handled things this time around. Merging multiple characters on the CSS doesn't mean there are less characters being added to the actual workload, it just appeases people who don't like clones (who still aren't happy that they exist to begin with.) Plus that just feels more cluttered to me from a UI standpoint.

It basically be "Echoes can be stacked or separate, but not these ones though. They're treated like alts, because reasons."

well I mean, they won't be considered echoes officially. They'll still be called alts ingame, they'd just have traits of echoes. They all still have the same properties and stats, just a single special move changed and possibly some animation changes here and there.

also, the "Echoes can be stacked or separate, but not these ones though. They're treated like alts, because reasons." is indeed strange, but exactly like something sakurai would do, as he's done similar exceptions to rules and whatnot in the past.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

well I mean, they won't be considered echoes officially. They'll still be called alts ingame, they'd just have traits of echoes. They all still have the same properties and stats, just a single special move changed and possibly some animation changes here and there.

also, the "Echoes can be stacked or separate, but not these ones though. They're treated like alts, because reasons." is indeed strange, but exactly like something sakurai would do, as he's done similar exceptions to rules and whatnot in the past.

Alts with actual differences just sounds like something Sakurai wouldn't do.

Like, that's not just "doing something he didn't do before", that's outright breaking a core aspect of fighting game design.

And it would mean 8 characters to balance, so even if the workload for making the moveset isn't long, that part will take forever.

It's unrealistic to think this'll happen in a COVID-19 world.

 

[Kirbeh]

well I mean, they won't be considered echoes officially. They'll still be called alts ingame, they'd just have traits of echoes. They all still have the same properties and stats, just a single special move changed and possibly some animation changes here and there.

That's still super important though. It's on par with or arguably more than (depending on who you ask) what characters like get.

Mind you, my gripe is wholly on the inconsistent handling of clone characters. Your idea is still interesting it just happens to create more mess because of the mess Ultimate was already made into.

Regardless if they're going to have actual move differences they should not be treated as alts, because they aren't by definition.

Not to go too off topic, but if we hypothetically got a few ARMS characters just leave them as that, a few separate characters with similar moves. We already have spacies, shotos and Marth gang, just add ARMS fighters to the list of groups.

Echoes should have always been separate, and the characters who should've been stacked are actual variations like .

That's the mini rant, back on topic.

 

[MrElectroG64]

Alts with actual differences just sounds like something Sakurai wouldn't do.

Like, that's not just "doing something he didn't do before", that's outright breaking a core aspect of fighting game design.

And it would mean 8 characters to balance, so even if the workload for making the moveset isn't long, that part will take forever.

It's unrealistic to think this'll happen in a COVID-19 world.

Yeah, because Sakurai has never broken rules before... Besides, Sakurai can do whatever he wants. He's had the three Gen1 starters selectable via the CSS, as well as ZSS and Samus in brawl.

It also really wouldn't be eight characters to balance, it would be one single character to balance, who happens to have 7 extra moves. Hero had more moves to develop and balance than that. Overall, hero is still the more ambitious character to develop, or at the very least even, if you could the extra costumes in comparison.

Also, it isn't THAT unrealistic to expect something like this during the virus's slow downs, even though I don't actually expect it to happen that much, if at all. This plan would have been made long before COVID struck Japan and Sakurai wouldn't just drop those plans to cut corners and get the character done quicker. he's already got one of, if not THE longest times between releases of DLC characters, meaning he'd have the longest development time. It's perfectly doable.

That's still super important though. It's on par with or arguably more than (depending on who you ask) what characters like get.

Mind you, my gripe is wholly on the inconsistent handling of clone characters. Your idea is still interesting it just happens to create more mess because of the mess Ultimate was already made into.

Regardless if they're going to have actual move differences they should not be treated as alts, because they aren't by definition.

Not to go too off topic, but if we hypothetically got a few ARMS characters just leave them as that, a few separate characters with similar moves. We already have spacies, shotos and Marth gang, just add ARMS fighters to the list of groups.

Echoes should have always been separate, and the characters who should've been stacked are actual variations like .

That's the mini rant, back on topic.

well, Dark Pit and Richter were both characters that were added for the hell of it since they had a little time left after development ended. It's not fair to use them as a standard, as they were made after the designated time given to make their original characters had ended. I get what you're saying with the rest of your post though lol.

EDIT: whoops! forgot to add this to the existing post, instead of making a new one. my bad.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, because Sakurai has never broken rules before... Besides, Sakurai can do whatever he wants.

I'm not saying he never broke rules. I'm just saying palettes bringing only visual differences rather than outright changing gameplay is basic game design.

This is why Echo Fighters exists and why Street Fighter has so many Shotoclones. Any difference is worth a slot, because you're no longer playing the same character if a palette changes something in the moveset.

He's had the three Gen1 starters selectable via the CSS, as well as ZSS and Samus in brawl.

Being able to select your starting Pokemon among a 3-in-1 tag team fighter isn't "breaking a rule", it's common sense.

ZSS and Samus had that big gimmick where the Final Smash would be so strong it broke the armor. Making a cute easter egg that makes you play Zero Suit from the start makes sense, especially since it happens in Subspace's earlier levels, so it was already coded into the game.

It also really wouldn't be eight characters to balance, it would be one single character to balance, who happens to have 7 extra moves. Hero had more moves to develop and balance than that. Overall, hero is still the more ambitious character to develop, or at the very least even, if you could the extra costumes in comparison.

Hero's balancing could be shortened by the fact that it was RNG. Didn't matter if some spells were broken if you could just reduce the odds of them happening.

Your idea does not have such a luxury, and also removes the very concept of a "ditto ARMS match", meaning no two player can play the exact same character.

Also, it isn't THAT unrealistic to expect something like this during the virus's slow downs, even though I don't actually expect it to happen that much, if at all. This plan would have been made long before COVID struck Japan and Sakurai wouldn't just drop those plans to cut corners and get the character done quicker.

Except he did.

Sakurai was prepared to make each Hero alt a different protagonist, but it wasn't considered a realistic option.

he's already got one of, if not THE longest times between releases of DLC characters, meaning he'd have the longest development time. It's perfectly doable.

Anything is doable with enough time. But that doesn't mean anything can be a good idea.

 

[Kirbeh]

well, Dark Pit and Richter were both characters that were added for the hell of it since they had a little time left after development ended. It's not fair to use them as a standard, as they were made after the designated time given to make their original characters had ended. I get what you're saying with the rest of your post though lol.

Try to edit your post next time just so mods don't get on your case for double posting.

Now then, that was indeed the case for DP in Smash 4, but not Ultimate. Because "Everyone is here!" had been decided on he of course got to came back. Sakurai then chose to leave him unchanged, more than likely to not add to the already immense workload.

Simon and Richter is a different case as they were developed together with Sakurai mentioning how they even technically echo each other because from the get go, he'd been pulling from both to make one base move set.

Moreover, in regards to Hero, all moves are accessible regardless of which alt you choose. By giving each a unique special, that fundamentally changes the characters balance. They would likely only be balanced against each other as most echoes are, but that one move could change how each plays to a degree. At that point it makes more sense to focus on one and make a proper, Echo or even a semi-clone.

We've gotten plenty of curves balls so I'm open to most possibilities and Sakurai makes some wacky decisions for better or worse, so I'm not counting your idea as completely off the table. But from a development standpoint that just seems less likely to be because of how counter intuitive it is.

Sakurai does what he wants, but he still tries to design things well. Making multiple Echoes as Alts defeats the purpose of highlighting Echoes in the first place and intrudes both on the UI design and character balance, both things he worked very hard on to make the way they currently are.

 

[MrElectroG64]

I'm not saying he never broke rules. I'm just saying palettes bringing only visual differences rather than outright changing gameplay is basic game design.

This is why Echo Fighters exists and why Street Fighter has so many Shotoclones. Any difference is worth a slot, because you're no longer playing the same character if a palette changes something in the moveset.


Being able to select your starting Pokemon among a 3-in-1 tag team fighter isn't "breaking a rule", it's common sense.

ZSS and Samus had that big gimmick where the Final Smash would be so strong it broke the armor. Making a cute easter egg that makes you play Zero Suit from the start makes sense, especially since it happens in Subspace's earlier levels, so it was already coded into the game.


Hero's balancing could be shortened by the fact that it was RNG. Didn't matter if some spells were broken if you could just reduce the odds of them happening.

Your idea does not have such a luxury, and also removes the very concept of a "ditto ARMS match", meaning no two player can play the exact same character.


Except he did.

Sakurai was prepared to make each Hero alt a different protagonist, but it wasn't considered a realistic option.


Anything is doable with enough time. But that doesn't mean anything can be a good idea.

hmmm... ok, well the whole hero almost having 8 alts definitely shoots down my idea, among other things. Oh well, it was worth a shot. I suppose there's always the chance of having four costumes instead of eight. I feel like having Springman, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and Min Min as alts of each other is still quite feasible, even if they inevitably don't go with the whole "alts as echoes" idea. All of their abilities are unobtrusive enough to be part of a singular moveset, aside from maybe Ninjara. They could also always just not have Ninjara as the alt, in favor of someone else. Who do you guys think it could be? If the base character weren't to be springman, who else could it be that might be able to have alts? I generally don't think that any character will have alts if springman isn't the base, but its still interesting to think about.

Try to edit your post next time just so mods don't get on your case for double posting.

Now then, that was indeed the case for DP in Smash 4, but not Ultimate. Because "Everyone is here!" had been decided on he of course got to came back. Sakurai then chose to leave him unchanged, more than likely to not add to the already immense workload.

Simon and Richter is a different case as they were developed together with Sakurai mentioning how they even technically echo each other because from the get go, he'd been pulling from both to make one base move set.

Moreover, in regards to Hero, all moves are accessible regardless of which alt you choose. By giving each a unique special, that fundamentally changes the characters balance. They would likely only be balanced against each other as most echoes are, but that one move could change how each plays to a degree. At that point it makes more sense to focus on one and make a proper, Echo or even a semi-clone.

We've gotten plenty of curves balls so I'm open to most possibilities and Sakurai makes some wacky decisions for better or worse, so I'm not counting your idea as completely off the table. But from a development standpoint that just seems less likely to be because of how counter intuitive it is.

Sakurai does what he wants, but he still tries to design things well. Making multiple Echoes as Alts defeats the purpose of highlighting Echoes in the first place and intrudes both on the UI design and character balance, both things he worked very hard on to make the way they currently are.

Yep, I already went ahead and reported my second message to have it merged with the one before it.

 

[Sigran101]

Alts with actual differences just sounds like something Sakurai wouldn't do.

Like, that's not just "doing something he didn't do before", that's outright breaking a core aspect of fighting game design.

And it would mean 8 characters to balance, so even if the workload for making the moveset isn't long, that part will take forever.

It's unrealistic to think this'll happen in a COVID-19 world.

It's unrealistic to think this'll happen in any world.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

OR what if we are getting 6 ARMS characters and its just that every character in fighters pass 2 will be an ARMS character?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Brings up some good points.

 

[GolisoPower]

Brings up some good points.

The idea of having both ARMS being split into both buttons as he said, and also not having traditional Specials on top of that, does sound like something worth tweeting about, and I never would have thought of that.

 

[Twin Shot]

I could see the reveal trailer doing something like this:

Springman is summoned via AT then starts fighting a roster character like Incineroar and then all of a sudden another Springman jumps in and punches the AT crumbling the disguise and revealing that Springman the AT was Springstron the entire time (...GASP!) Then moving forward they just have the AT skin swapped.

If they don’t go this route, they can just as easily disable it when Springman is a fighter (like Alucard in Wii Studio, Knuckles in Green Hill and Alphonso) OR, you know, just select a different rep altogether.

Anyway you cut it, though, most of the more popular characters already have spirits in Ultimate, so that will likely be addressed somehow (like making the fighter spirit you unlock for classic being the official smash render and the OG spirit is the one toggled begins it with the original art)

Speaking of popular - I just jumped into ARMS again and there is a Party Crash event (which they have brought back as these have been retired a while ago..) between Springman and Ribbon Girl called “Battle for Stardom” which I thought was interesting as it could be honing in on those two (despite Min Min taking it the last one)


I thought it would be cool if they actually give us both a new fighter and an echo - would imagine the base move sets would be somewhat similar (with maybe some adjustments like what arm is used in certain moves), but this would allow the two fighters the ability to keep their unique mechanics in Smash (and we get 2 fighters for the same price, huzzah!)

 

[meleebrawler]

I could see the reveal trailer doing something like this:

Springman is summoned via AT then starts fighting a roster character like Incineroar and then all of a sudden another Springman jumps in and punches the AT crumbling the disguise and revealing that Springman the AT was Springstron the entire time (...GASP!) Then moving forward they just have the AT skin swapped.

If they don’t go this route, they can just as easily disable it when Springman is a fighter (like Alucard in Wii Studio, Knuckles in Green Hill and Alphonso) OR, you know, just select a different rep altogether.

Anyway you cut it, though, most of the more popular characters already have spirits in Ultimate, so that will likely be addressed somehow (like making the fighter spirit you unlock for classic being the official smash render and the OG spirit is the one toggled begins it with the original art)

Speaking of popular - I just jumped into ARMS again and there is a Party Crash event (which they have brought back as these have been retired a while ago..) between Springman and Ribbon Girl called “Battle for Stardom” which I thought was interesting as it could be honing in on those two (despite Min Min taking it the last one)


I thought it would be cool if they actually give us both a new fighter and an echo - would imagine the base move sets would be somewhat similar (with maybe some adjustments like what arm is used in certain moves), but this would allow the two fighters the ability to keep their unique mechanics in Smash (and we get 2 fighters for the same price, huzzah!)

That's probably just the start of looping all previous Party Crashes so that latecomers won't miss out on their badges. Battle For Stardom was the very first Party Crash, that Spring Man won quite handily. It's kind of like the Conquests from Smash 4.

Edit: And from the looks of things, Spring Man still is.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So is the next 2 months going to be a lot of arguments about if we could have alts of other characters or not? Getting a little tiresome. If it happens it happens if not it doesn't. Lets not keep fighting about this...

Still beats the Shantae thread going into no-spoilers mode after Seven Sirens was finally confirmed to get a release date, but the full version is already out on mobile, so topics are about anything but Shantae again. Thanks, Apple.

On the bright side, the chances of "I told you sos" occurring will make it all the sweeter, so it's worth putting up with the naysayers sometimes. Imagine being in my shoes when I insisted that we wouldn't necessarily get one season of DLC.