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confused about pivoting

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
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So i'm confused how to learn to pivot.

Is pivoting basically just beginning the turn around motion without going into a dash..so that one ends standing and can do any ground move?

so basically if you had held the direction longer you would have begun to dash? but ultimately it's no different than just turning around on the ground without dashing..except now you do it from the prior dash motion..and it's hard to time?
 

FrostByte

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1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes

The easiest way to do it (the pivot samsh) is to press A a fraction of a second before you turn or push the joystick and c-stick at the same time.
 

knightpraetor

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i'm kinda confused why those work...

so if you push a before you turn it doesn't begin the attack until after you turn? wouldn't it dash attack? that's weird..

also doesn't the C-stick outprioritize the joystick? so i guess if the first one works then logically this should as well..

it's just surprising that pressing a before turning would work..

what happens if you try to turn and hit A at exactly the same time? will it not count the A attack and just turn instead?
 

FrostByte

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If you use the C-stick, then there'd be no need to worry about accidental dash attacking and you can go on as if you meant to dashdance. When I was learning to pivot, I always used to press the A button too late, Marth would execute a reversed dash attack. That's probably why I get into that way of thinking.

If you press the buttons at the same time, there shouldn't be a problem. It's just that I found it easier learning that way.
 

RPK

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I have and its pretty easy for me...I just dash cancel and quickly F smash the other way I dashed using the Cstick. And I do it fast enough so that its basically like a pivot. Hardest though would of course be tilts...ugh...
 

FrostByte

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What are some applications for the pivot? If you see your opponent dash toward you and you want to throw in a fsmash to stop them?
It's basically a more elaborate method of spacing when compared to something like a wavedash and it's quicker than marth's infamous walk - smash. It's a very handy tool to use in that situation, but It's more of a final resort if you can't get close enough for the grab.


I have and its pretty easy for me...I just dash cancel and quickly F smash the other way I dashed using the Cstick. And I do it fast enough so that its basically like a pivot.
Only problem is that it's impossible to pull from the initial dash. I sometimes use the method, but I do different things under different circumstances. Against Shielding opponents, I'd cc then dash for a grab. Against spotdodgers, I'd dash, cc, wait for the dodge and then Fsmash, or dash, cc, dash back through the dodging opponent and claim a free pivot grab.
 

Shai Hulud

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You can pivot any attack, but it's ridiculously hard to do anything but the smash attacks, ftilts, or grabs.

Best application I've seen is dash away and if they follow you launch a pivoted fsmash into their face.
 

ArcNatural

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Another possibility for the pivot is if Fox or Falco don't DI to avoid getting tipped from a upthrow. You can dash pivot F-smash and possibly still hit the tip.
 

knightpraetor

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so basically as i understand it..i am ok using A at the same time as the direction shift to pivot tilt etc

but pushing A before the actual direction shift works as well as long as it is within a few frames? and so you recommend i learn it that way because if i'm a little late then i still get the pivot?


actually i'm still really confused..if you can hit A before the turn around..then what differentiates between a tilt and a smash...I seem to be able to do both..but i don't really have full control since i don't understand what's causing one over the other
 

Silver Sytos

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So Dash one direction, stop, and then press right on stick and cstick at same time?

This seems useful in a chain grab if a ff tries to DI toward the middle of marth, because DD and wavedash DD are a bit too slow to grab them.
 

Shai Hulud

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To clear up some confusion--Dash-dancing is essentially a consequence of interruption of the initial dash with the standing animation (aka pivoting). At any point during an initial dash, if you tap the control stick very slightly in the opposite direction, you revert to a standing position. From this you can do anything, including start another initial dash, in either direction. So when you're dash-dancing, you're basically immediately overriding the standing animation with another dash.

So what determines what attack actually comes out? Well there are actually TWO standing frames during a dash-dance, one in each direction. You have precisely these two frames to input whatever attack/movement you want. For an fsmash to come out, you have to do a smash attack during those two frames--but you start the smash when you moved the control stick, and because of the two frame limit the timing is not nearly as forgiving as a regular smash attack. If you get an ftilt it's either because you're pressing A too late or you're not tilting the control stick enough. In my experience it's almost always the latter. If you get a neutral A it's because you cancelled the initial dash and let the control stick return to neutral before hitting A.

In my experience, the harder I smash the control stick, the more likely I am to get an fsmash, and the weaker I move the control stick, the more likely I will get an ftilt or even a neutral A.

But I stopped using A for pivoting, because you can do so much more with the c-stick (theoretically you can do more using A but most of the moves are virtually impossible), most importantly the ability to fsmash IN EITHER DIRECTION. When you use the C-stick the timing is not as important because you don't have three different moves using the same button combination as in the above case. Still, two frames is a pretty small window. I've found the most consistent method of pivoting with the c-stick is to rapidly but weakly flick the control stick in the opposite direction I want to fsmash, then immediately hit the c-stick. If you flicked the control stick properly, you should go to the standing animation, meaning you have MORE THAN 2 FRAMES. You have however many you need, and if it takes you 4 frames, that's still a hell of a lot faster than wavedash => fsmash.

It is so easy to get tippers this way. I would say it's better than CCing a full dash as well; i.e., if you aren't terribly far away, it's better to foxtrot => pivot because when you CC a full dash you slide a distance that depends on both your running speed and the crouch angle. IMO it's harder to spot that "tipper range."

I'm starting to look into this pivoting business in more detail. I've been owning some level 1 cpus. I'm very surprised so few people use this tech considering how ridiculously useful it is for Marth.

There's the fsmash out of dash-dance that everyone knows about, but you can also fsmash at any point during an initial dash (I guess this is the same as dash-dancing, only you never see the turn-around dash). So you can do things like the ever popular fthrow => fsmash EVEN IF THEY DI CORRECTLY.

^^^^
I hope this post was at least marginally clear, but it's very late so it's quite possible I was rambling.
 

julealgon

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I never knew you could cancel a starting dash without dashing backwards... this is very interesting. I will test this out when I get home.
 

3GOD

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Lots of useful stuff....
So you can do things like the ever popular fthrow => fsmash EVEN IF THEY DI CORRECTLY.
I have been playing around with Marth lately, and I think you are really onto something great with this...if you can reach a point where a grab = a free fsmash, your marth will become beastly no doubt. Also, if they DI away from the fthrow (as they should to avoid the standing fsmash) they will be DI-ing away during the pivoted fsmash.

ps - Are you still going to INNsomnia V, and do you think you might want to stay with me at this guy Handorin's house? I think some of the good guys from FL are staying there as well.
 

FrostByte

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Yeah, this could be a major breakthrough if anyone is able to master it. I've done it before, but I never actually thought of implementing it into my style of play. I've been practicing it for a while now, I just need to see if I can use it in real matches.

Pivoting Marth for top tier!
 

Shai Hulud

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I have been playing around with Marth lately, and I think you are really onto something great with this...if you can reach a point where a grab = a free fsmash, your marth will become beastly no doubt. Also, if they DI away from the fthrow (as they should to avoid the standing fsmash) they will be DI-ing away during the pivoted fsmash.
Pivoting at will is ridiculously hard. I said earlier that there were two frames to pivot, but I think I may have been mistaken and it may actually be just one frame. I think it goes straight from the standing one direction => dashing opposite direction animation without the intermediate standing direction.

Still, I think it is masterable, at least to a high degree of confidence like 95% or something. And it's a lot easier to pivot when you know exactly when you're going to do it, like after an fthrow. Right now I can pivot generally about 60% of the time, but higher success after fthrows. For some reason I find it a lot easier to pivot when I'm dashing left, and can do it almost every time.

Basically you can tipper from any fthrow for any DI, except perhaps on fast-fallers at low damage. But in general, if they don't DI, you just fsmash for the tipper. If they DI away, dash => pivoted tipper. If they DI towards you (perhaps they catch on to your pivoting smashes) then just dash backwards => pivoted tipper.

You can also do things like sweet-spotted FAIR => pivoted tipper. It's pretty common to tipper after a sweet-spotted FAIR if they happen to DI into that range. But with pivoting it doesn't matter where they DI--all that matters is that they're stunned long enough for you to pivot and fsmash. If a space animal DIs out of a utilt chain, even outside the normal punishable tipper range, you can dash => pivoted tipper.

I find it interesting people have mostly just considered pivoting's use for fmashes in the same direction that you're turning around, when the real application is fmashing in the dash direction. Turn-around fsmashes are good if you can trick your opponent, but same direction f-smashes just work as guaranteed finishers for various combos regardless of DI.

I really think a Marth that's mastered pivoting would be God tier. It's so useful.

ps - Are you still going to INNsomnia V, and do you think you might want to stay with me at this guy Handorin's house? I think some of the good guys from FL are staying there as well.
Yeah I'm going. I sent you a PM.
 

Razgriz

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Wow....... I'm going to training mode for some practice...... maybe I'm just being silly or overdramatic, but I almost feel that Shai Hulud has developed something that could quite literally put Marth on top. Wow.
 

Shai Hulud

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Wow....... I'm going to training mode for some practice...... maybe I'm just being silly or overdramatic, but I almost feel that Shai Hulud has developed something that could quite literally put Marth on top. Wow.
Unfortunately you can't practice with the C-stick in training mode, and it's virtually impossible to do pivoted smashes in the initial dash direction using the A button. I don't know why they disabled the C-stick for 1-player mode. So lame.

People have known about pivoting for a long time but it's mostly been ignored. Smashers just say "too hard" or "not useful" and move on. Much like most of them did when wavedashing was discovered. :ohwell:
 

Razgriz

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Unfortunately you can't practice with the C-stick in training mode, and it's virtually impossible to do pivoted smashes in the initial dash direction using the A button. I don't know why they disabled the C-stick for 1-player mode. So lame.

People have known about pivoting for a long time but it's mostly been ignored. Smashers just say "too hard" or "not useful" and move on. Much like most of them did when wavedashing was discovered. :ohwell:
Well then I just put two controllers in and practice in VS mode by myself.

Yeah... I'm guilty of being among those who said wavedashing was useless and was just showing off. Shame. Shame.:urg:
 

Shai Hulud

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Imagine what pros would be like if they all mastered power shielding ;D
IMO powershielding is more difficult and less useful than pivoting. It requires frame-perfect timing like pivoting, but also EXTREMELY FAST REACTION TIME, which you don't need in order to pivot. The timing for dash-canceled tippers is very predictable, just difficult to implement. The timing for powershielding is both difficult to implement and not very predictable, as it depends on what attack your opponent is using.

I've been trying to develop further uses for pivoting and IDC (inital dash cancelled attack, an abbreviation I will use for pivoting attacks in the same direction as the initial dash). The most promising thing I've come up with is tech-chasing into pivoted tippers.

Pivoting has limited use against a mobile opponent, as after a while it could become predictable and spot-dodging or shielding would make it punishable.

However, pivoting tippers as punishment for flubbed techs, whiffed attacks, etc., would be extremely useful. Also, I think this could really revolutionize Marth's grab game via fthrow => IDC fsmash and tech-chase => pivoted tipper.

Yes, it's difficult but any tech that is doable can be mastered. This isn't as difficult as infinite JC shining, for instance, yet some players have mastered that (e.g., DaShizWiz).
 

Shai Hulud

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Does anyone have any videos of Marth's pivoting? It sounds very interesting.
I wish I had a capture card. If I did I'd make some videos showing some potential applications.

I don't think any pros use pivoting extensively. I've seen Ken do it, but I don't recall where and I think it was in the traditional pivot from dash dance form rather than IDCing.
 

ArcNatural

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I recently started messing with this. Especially trying to pivot to fsmash. I don't know but for me this was extremely easy to learn quickly and I now have an extremely high success rate when I attempt this in the first dash (i.e. grab > fthrow > dash > pivot fsmash). This works extremely well on people who DI away at low % and often leads into a tipper.

I think this is extremely useful the more I get comfortable using it. Just a few days ago I predicted a fox phantasm and wavedashed back realized I was out of range and did a quick dash pivot fsmash which ended up being a tipper. Too sexy.
 

soap

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yo shai, this **** is crazy, it is revolutionizing my marth, i have also started learning how to pivot the dsmash with sheik for incoming foxes.

I have one quick question, suppose you are facing your opponent is it faster to dash the other way then pivot the fsmash, or do a quick little dashdance forward then back and then pivot the fsmash. To me it seems like it takes longer to turn around without the dashdance. The same thing when chaingrabbing spacies when they di behind you, do a quick little dashdance, or just turn around and run?
 

Shai Hulud

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yo shai, this **** is crazy, it is revolutionizing my marth, i have also started learning how to pivot the dsmash with sheik for incoming foxes.

I have one quick question, suppose you are facing your opponent is it faster to dash the other way then pivot the fsmash, or do a quick little dashdance forward then back and then pivot the fsmash. To me it seems like it takes longer to turn around without the dashdance. The same thing when chaingrabbing spacies when they di behind you, do a quick little dashdance, or just turn around and run?
It should be faster to just dash the other way, but you have to do a "hard" dash or Marth will just turn around. When you dash the same direction you can do a "soft" dash and then turn around with a similarly "soft" dash.

The Sheik pivot isn't quite as useful because his dash is so quick and short that you can just crouch cancel almost as fast as a pivot. Pivoting is still better in some situations, but it's about 100x more difficult.

I can pivot really well these days, but my Marth with pivoting still isn't my best character. Ice Climbers with pivots own =)

I'd like to see what some really good Marths could do with proper application of pivoting. I think it could really shift the balance in the space animals matches because you could punish more DI from uthrow or utilts. Also could do sweet-spotted fair => tipper for more DIs. Lots of possibilities...
 

soap

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i have yet to do alot of testing with sheiks pivot, but the dsmash has the strong and uber fast first hit in the front where her feet have really good priority, but the dsmash has no priority in the crotch region so to use it defensively with a dash cancel youd have to run, stop, turn around and then dsmash. so i mean fox shffling neutrals is on you too fast for this and for you to wavedash out the way and counterattack, so i think the pivot would be amazing to space out dsmashes, jabs, and ftilts. but i agree running forward you can always just wait a second and dash cancel cuz its so short. Sheik's pivoting i think i will use primarily defensively while with my marth i have the option for both.
 

Binx

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Wow, Im kind of a mediocre marth, he is my best character but I still miss some of my chain grabs, and I have trouble with double forward airs, I shffle pretty much perfectly, and I am working on my mind games, i was just talking about pivoting with my friend the other day and how cool it was. I hadn't thought of this application for it, but that really is amazing. I just wanna make sure I understand this, So I up throw falco at 70% he DI's too far away to forward smash and is at too much damage to get under him before he gets his jump back, so I dash towards him(Jam the joystick his way) then softly, like with a tilt, hit away from him with the joystick as if I was doing a forward tilt? then withing my 1-4 frame window c-stick smash his face in? for a tipper and pretty much gauranteed kill?
 

Dark Sonic

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That's basically it. It's really hard to get your attack out if you smash the control stick like you were dashdancing, but if you just flick the control stick instead you should just go to a standing position. I find pivoting very useful for spacing tilts and the foward smash. If you hit someone's shield with a SHFFL'd fair you have enough time to dash out, pivot, and f-tilt them in their face when they try to shield grab you if you messed up your spacing on the fair. I really think pivoting is most usefull for smashing an opponent while their still stunned from another move like a throw or l-canceled aerial. It's also very good for spacing.
 

JesiahTEG

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The thing is, no one can master it. Honestly, i'm not even trying to be negative. I talk to mew2king once in a while on AIM, and he's switched from fox to Marth. We talked about pivoting, and he explained that it's a risky tactic, since not even he himself can get it down perfectly. It's a risk everytime you use a pivot, but sometimes in matches being risky is better than playing safe.

As for applications UMBC, i'm not exactly sure on all of them, but marth is at the disadvantage when someone is behind him. Pivoting gives you the best option to attack when someone is behind you: Marth's FSmash.

Another thing is that sometimes if you DD towards/near your opponent, they will spot dodge. Get them to spot dodge and then bust out a pivot. And in case you were wondering, I haven't actually done this, i just thought it would be cool.
 

FrostByte

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The pivot is possible, since I can do it 9 out of 10 times using the A button (timing for c-stick pivots come vand go) It's not as risky as you claim it to be. If you fail a c-stick pivot, you'll just end up dash dancing anyway.

Watch some vids with FLT's Marth. He can pivot consistently
 

soap

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I cant pivot to space out approaches i always mess it up or i am thinking too much about pivoting rather than if they are actually going to approach or not. But i can do it consistently to space animals out of uthrows, or out of fthrows to floaties and it is very useful.
 

JesiahTEG

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frostbyte, not to be mean or anything but i doubt you can pivot 9 out of 10 times in a match, or else ppl would know you as a very good marth player, and i've never even heard of you. Pivoting takes a lot of skill and timing, and even the best smashers can't do it 90% of the time. If you really could do it 90% of the time, that means you'd easily have mastered marth as a character, and mastered his hardest technique, which would make your opponent unable to approach you from anywhere, which would make YOU known as the only smasher that can pivot 90% of the time in a match, and this is simply not the case. But, if you show me a vid of a match where you pivot 90% of the time, i'll gladly apologize and believe you.

and yes, it is by far marth's riskiest method of attacking.
 

FrostByte

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Yes. I can pivot fairly well. There are quite a few marth players who can use the pivot effectivley. However, the pivot, like any other strategic method can be easily avoided via spotdodging once it becomes overused. Also, I said I could do the pivot smash, using the A button. Not the DC smash using the c-stick.

Being able to use the technique doesn't automatically make you a good player. I can only use the simplest application of the method adequately, I haven't looked at the more advance applications.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HDH7qKme_I

Watch some vids of FLT, who can pivot consistently. Not as impossible as you make it out to be eh?
 

Shai Hulud

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The thing is, no one can master it. Honestly, i'm not even trying to be negative. I talk to mew2king once in a while on AIM, and he's switched from fox to Marth. We talked about pivoting, and he explained that it's a risky tactic, since not even he himself can get it down perfectly. It's a risk everytime you use a pivot, but sometimes in matches being risky is better than playing safe.
Bull****. I can pivot 9/10 times and I'm not even that good at this game. And if you miss 1/10 and you're using the C-stick nothing happens except you turn around. You could even attempt a pivot again, all of ten frames later.

And just because you can pivot does NOT make you good. I have a pretty high degree of technical skill but I still lose all the time because I don't have a lot of match experience and do things at inappropriate times.
 

Reese

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Okay guys I need something cleared up. Sometimes during a match, I would DD and fsmash, but fsmash when marth (or whoever I am playing with ) is standing upright. I had to slow down my DD to be able to do this. Usually I do smash, but sometimes I do tilts by accident. Most times I use the c-stick to do this.

Essentially I am just smashing or whatever after the initial dash animation is complete. Is this pivoting ? It sounds too simple to be pivoting. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 

hugQ Cortex

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Yes, it's pivoting. You don't have to dash dance to "pivot." All you really need is the initial dash and you can pivot a grab, f-smash, f-tilt, forward-b attack, even jabs [hard to do].
 
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