confused about pivoting

[JesiahTEG]

Frostbyte, just wanted to say you were right. Pivoting is possible 9/10 times, I was being an idiot. My apologies.

 

[knightpraetor]

i agree that i think it's just one frame that allows you to pivot..but when i hit the opposite direction from a dashdance..does it move to that frame immediately? or do i need to wait a twentieth of a sec or something before hitting the C-stick...i mean i know it looks like you immediatley change direction..but i dunno if there lag frames between inserting the command and not..unlikely..but just wanted to make sure..

 

[Shai Hulud]

i agree that i think it's just one frame that allows you to pivot..but when i hit the opposite direction from a dashdance..does it move to that frame immediately? or do i need to wait a twentieth of a sec or something before hitting the C-stick...i mean i know it looks like you immediatley change direction..but i dunno if there lag frames between inserting the command and not..unlikely..but just wanted to make sure..

It moves to that frame once your control stick goes past the neutral position. I'm not sure exactly how far it has to go past the neutral position--you just have to practice the timing a lot until you get a feel for it. To me it seems like I press the control stick VERY SLIGHTLY before the C-stick. Like 1-frame before.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wait a minute, If there's only one frame for the pivot then how is it possible that we can get jabs, tilt, and smashes all during that same time frame? There's no way that we are moving the control stick past neutral and able to move it far enough to smash in just one 60th of a second. The jabs and tilts are understandable because all you have to do is move the control stick just enough to start the dash animation in the opposite direction, but why does the smash work? And why is it possible for people like us to be able to succesfuly pivot 9/10 times? Have you confirmed this one frame time limit or is it just speculation because it doesn't make much sense to me. I can pivot very well, but I'm not even moving my fingers that fast (I use the c-stick for pivoting smashes).

It just doesn't make much sense to me and I'd like a more detailed explination if possible.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Wait a minute, If there's only one frame for the pivot then how is it possible that we can get jabs, tilt, and smashes all during that same time frame? There's no way that we are moving the control stick past neutral and able to move it far enough to smash in just one 60th of a second. The jabs and tilts are understandable because all you have to do is move the control stick just enough to start the dash animation in the opposite direction, but why does the smash work? And why is it possible for people like us to be able to succesfuly pivot 9/10 times? Have you confirmed this one frame time limit or is it just speculation because it doesn't make much sense to me. I can pivot very well, but I'm not even moving my fingers that fast (I use the c-stick for pivoting smashes).

It just doesn't make much sense to me and I'd like a more detailed explination if possible.

I don't have action replay but I'm pretty sure it's just 1 frame. When you do tilts and neutral A's you're not exactly "pivoting" you're cancelling the dash attack into the standing animation.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why do people care how it works that much? Marth is the best at pivoting and he can abuse it because of his range and power behind his f-smash.

Isn't that the most important thing?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why do people care how it works that much? Marth is the best at pivoting and he can abuse it because of his range and power behind his f-smash.

Isn't that the most important thing?

Yes, but I like to know how things work when I play.

So when you get a tilt or a jab then that doesn't count as pivoting? If that's the case then how many frames do you have to get a tilt or a jab than a foward smash?

 

[knightpraetor]

ya i agree that doesn't make sense..with one frame you shouldn't be able to do both tilts and smashes..i wish i understood how it works better..i hate teaching my hands without understanding why it works...it speeds up the learning curve if you understand what's going on usually

or maybe you mean that pivots occur on the frame where it shifts to standing upright..while the tilts can be done earlier by timing it before then?

 

[Ixninjax]

basically when you dash towards your back there's one frame where your in your neutral standing position as you turn around to dash. And as you know you can do any move when your in your neutral position (smash, tilt or whatever). It doesn't matter what move you do whether it be a tilt or a smash because it's basically the same as standing still.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So your saying that my finger on the control stick is actually moving at the same time as the c-stick with 1/60 second accuracy every time that I pivot.

Sweeeeeet!

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would say that for the most part in pivoting, you just get lucky with it. As Marth dashes I just mash the analog in the direction I want to f-smash then hit A or the c-stick at the same time. Usually I pull off pivoting about 80% of the time, with little difficulty.

 

[Dark Sonic]

80% isn't just luck you know. I rarely miss a pivot with the c-stick but I rarely get the pivot with the a button. I think it's more of getting a feel for the timing than it is luck. Since your using two hands all you have to do is get them to move at the same time. It can't all be luck if people are pulling it off 8-9 times out of 10. I was just debating whether or not our fingers are actually that accurate. Then again there are a few foxes I know that can double shine and that only uses one hand.

You should use the c-stick whenever you want to pivot a smash. If you use the c-stick you can smash in whatever direction you want. It makes f-throw to f-smash a godly combo because you've got nearly instant spacing. You can even charge the smash just by using z so you can still smash wherever you want.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I can do 9 or 10 shines with Fox easy.

 

[Velox]

I would just like to say that FASTLIKETREE has a method to do pivoting with 100% accuaracy with any move, not just f-smash. I use the same method he uses and I can do it with greater accuracy than I can full hop with Roy.

Uses? If you can not see the uses of such a move then you are probably not generally good enough at the game yet where you should start using such a technique, even if you have the tech skill. Come back in 6 months to a year and it will probably be clear to you then how useful such a technique can be.

And it's called the "DA Dash"... none of this "pivoting" stuff... Give the move its proper credit.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I would just like to say that FASTLIKETREE has a method to do pivoting with 100% accuaracy with any move, not just f-smash. I use the same method he uses and I can do it with greater accuracy than I can full hop with Roy.

Uses? If you can not see the uses of such a move then you are probably not generally good enough at the game yet where you should start using such a technique, even if you have the tech skill. Come back in 6 months to a year and it will probably be clear to you then how useful such a technique can be.

And it's called the "DA Dash"... none of this "pivoting" stuff... Give the move its proper credit.

Would you be so kind as to share this method of pivoting that has 100% accuracy?

 

[Velox]

Well, don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't want to be helpful, but because I don't know him personally, and it's one of those "trade secret" type of things, I don't know how he would feel/react if it were posted publically. That's the first problem. Secondly I wouldn't even know how to explain it written out anyways. It's not overly hard to figure out though, ask him personally and maybe he'll tell you, I dunno, I think that's how my friend found out about.

And to get an idea of how much FLT uses this in his game (to crush the idea that nobody would attempt to make this a part of their game), I remember one tournament where FLT had to actually stop a tournament match between him and Xelic and get a different controller because the older controller he was using was too worn out to DA dash effectivly.

It's also the center piece of my game actually.

And I don't exactly see it as a high risk move, because usually when I mess up like a f-smash (I use a modified method to f-smash), I dash attack in the opposite direction, which isn't really all that punishable. Usually you can get away before the opponent can dash in and grab you after your dash attack, Marth's dash attack is not as laggy as some people say.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Do you mean flicking the controler in the opposite direction after initiating a dash so that you can cancel the dash animation and stand up and turn around instead of dashing the other way? That's a different tecnique and is not considered pivoting. It is very useful, but it's not the same thing. I can see full well the uses of this manuver, but it is more difficult to catch the opponent with this. Against a fast opponent you will simply get hit because you suddenly stopped moving.

Pivoting is canceling the dash animation with the attack itself by attacking on the standing frame in between the dash dance. It is guaranteed to be faster than the method your saying
because it skips the standing and turn around part.

 

[Velox]

I'm pretty sure the DA dash and pivoting are the same thing. There's no set definiton on one of them being used merely cancel your dash and one being used to attack with, because you can attack out of a DA dash just like you would with a pivot. It's the same principal. You could pivot and not do anything after it such as your definition of the DA dash.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No you can't pivot and do nothing because then you'd dash back in the other direction. A pivot is when you input an attack to interupt the dash dance, not when you cancel the dash with the turn around animation. That takes more time than the pivot because you can't attack while your turning around. DA dash is basically pivoting into turning around instead of attacking.

 

[Velox]

Hmmm, I think you're right actually, I know what you're talking about now. I was pretty sure you could attack while you were turning around after the DA dash anyways because when I do it I seemingly can, but maybe there is some extra lag there that is hard to see. I can't really research it further though without an AR, because to the naked eye I can't see an extra frames of lag.

Yeah, I really can't tell the difference if I am doing a jab during the pivot or after the turn around lag, or even during the turn around lag.

Edit*** Regardless though, I still think the DA dash was meant when it was discovered to mean either pivoting or doing your description of the DA dash. I'm pretty sure it is all inclusive.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm glad we agree on something. Now I just wish that I could fight fastliketree so that I could get utterly pwn'd and experience pivoting utilized to a higher degree then what I use it for.

BTW I just watched some matches of fastliketree on youtube. He does use this manuver quite a lot in some of his older videos, but in his newer ones he's toned that down a bit. It's not that great as an approach and it looks like he was playing rather defensive. It does help continue and finish combos though. It's also a nice thing to have for mindgames. Lol Dash back and pivot a smash in their face. Unfourtunately the most recent vids of him are 3 months old

 

[Velox]

heh, yeah, I haven't actually gotten to play him either (I'd get owned senseless though). Everytime I see him at a tourney though I like stalk him though, lol. I love watching him play, I learn so much just from watching him, he's a brilliant player no doubt. I don't see any of his characters pivot much though besides his Marth.

And yeah, there isn't much videos of the top Texas players at all (besides Rob and Cave), FLT hasn't even been to but like one tourney this whole year though... and that was like the beginning of January...

 

[Shai Hulud]

If you initial dash cancel (or DA dash as you're calling it) then you aren't necessarily doing your attack in 1 frame, which makes this method inferior as it it on average slower.

 

[Binx]

I think that the DA dash is slightly superior due to the increased reliability, if you could pivot with 100% accuracy then yes it would be better. But I would say if you could DA 100% and pivot at 90% then DA is better still. Although I recognize a failed pivot just means a dash dance which usually isn't bad anyways ha. I still can't seem to get the timing, are we sure its only one frame now?

 

[Shai Hulud]

It is just one frame, unless you cancel into the standing animation, in which case there is no limit.

 

[knightpraetor]

meh, now i'm not sure which to learn..it's time consuming to practice these things so i wish i ahd some idea how much more lag DA dashing has...or wahtever you want to call it...because if it's not much then the increased accuracy will be more worthwhile

 

[Shai Hulud]

meh, now i'm not sure which to learn..it's time consuming to practice these things so i wish i ahd some idea how much more lag DA dashing has...or wahtever you want to call it...because if it's not much then the increased accuracy will be more worthwhile

Consistency is the most important thing. Personally I find it fairly difficult to pivot to the standing animationj (DA dash..) so I don't really bother with it. Theoretically you can DA dash with no more lag than regular pivoting, but this will probably not happen, as the advantage of DA dash to begin with is that it requires less precision. But I'd think most of the time you wouldn't be incurring more than a couple frames additional lag. Probably not that significant.

 

[knightpraetor]

so i'm at maybe 40% accuracy with regular pivots..given another 80 hrs of training i should get it i think...or i can do DA dash..but meh all that is lower priority..right now priority one is getting edgeteching consistent past 100% on mines..right now i have 1/8 roughly
something like that...i'm also practicing short phantasms and moonwalking...moonwalking is really hard...i was thinking learning to DA dash would help me moonwalk because you want that same sort of partial stick flick that just barely has enough to turn it around...except with moonwalking you have to immediately swirl the stick afterwards to get the crouch and DI Backwards

 

[Binx]

moonwalking really is useless, it can be thrown in maybe once in a set as a mindgame, but usually it wont do you any good at all. F B DB D DF F its easy to moonwalk, just useless. Edgeteching can't go past 100% I dont think since 100% is the most anything can be done. Short phantasm's are pretty good for mindgames, just look at PCs falco. DA dashing and pivots are both kind of difficult, but so usefull, I dont think its nearly as good as pivoting into forward smashes during tech chases though... wish pivot wasnt so hard.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can edgetech at any percent. It's just at higher percents ASDI won't cause you to hit the stage and tech, so you MUST smash DI. The pivot smash is easier if you learn to move the c-stick and the control stick in unison as your pivoting. I don't know for sure why it's easier, but I think it has to do with the c-stick being anolog rather than like a button. I think it reads the smash on every frame and does it on the first frame possible. That means that on it's reading the smash every frame while your moving the control stick back to neutral, but it's unable to smash because your in the dash animation. However, as soon as that pivoting frame comes around then it's able to smash and does so if the c-stick is still moving.

At least that's what I think.

 

[Mr.C]

you can use pivots for mindgames, spacing

you can pivot any move ....some are harder then others

pivoting also allows you to stay in your running animation meaning you arnt as open as if you were wavedashing. Because you can instantly shield, grab, attack, roll etc

the most common way to use a pivot is run in dash dance away the opponent will normally dodge because he thinks you are going to grab etc you can either space a fsmash, grab or use any of your tilts or jabs.

an easy way to pivot is dash and flick the control stick the opposite direction
if you do this fast as possible you should be able to pivot everytime.

and moonwalking is not useless, with cf you can easily clear the whole stage in a moonwalking animation....incase none of you know... i invented the moonwalk
there is an upgraded version of the moonwalk that you guys have not seen most likely....but it pretty much allows cf to moonwalk the whole stage almost instantly, link can do the same but with smaller affects.

Since Flt is from Texas we pretty much incorporated the pivot into our game play, the only people in texas i have seen that has mastered pivoting is Flt and I....we actually sat down and tried to learn how to pivot uptilt for a good hour....pivot uptilts are the hardest thing to pull off in smash no doubt lols

 

[RT]

Being able to pivoting u-tilts doesn't sound like a bad idea. I have to start practicing this...

 

[Mr.C]

Being able to pivoting u-tilts doesn't sound like a bad idea. I have to start practicing this...

oh dude lol its is 100% the hardest thing in the game to do....

if you get down pivot uptilts ill have babies with you lols

 

[Shai Hulud]

and moonwalking is not useless, with cf you can easily clear the whole stage in a moonwalking animation....incase none of you know... i invented the moonwalk
there is an upgraded version of the moonwalk that you guys have not seen most likely....but it pretty much allows cf to moonwalk the whole stage almost instantly, link can do the same but with smaller affects.

And how would one perform this "upgraded" moonwalk?

 

[Mr.C]

its pretty hard to explain id have to make a video....hopefully next tournament i go to someone has a video camera.