Comprehensive "Guide" to Fixed and Set Knockback? (title pending)

[The_Dyne]

Snake's first 2 jabs.
His upB projectile.
The Ftilt is NOT fixed on aerial opponents.

 

[M15t3R E]

Well what about Diddy's Banana's?

Those have knockback, but in essence, its about the stun from the slip/trip.

But it has knockback
With knockback always comes stun. Jiggly's Up B is just stun without knockback.


Oh, what about Snake's nair before the final hit?

 

[SuSa]

Note: Olimar's Side B should exclude the purple Pikmin.

DangR said it was fixed..... was he wrong?

Snake's first 2 jabs.
His upB projectile.
The Ftilt is NOT fixed on aerial opponents.

Cypher, I thought so.

But it has knockback
With knockback always comes stun. Jiggly's Up B is stun without knockback.

So it's like Fox's laser? but it puts them to sleep!

:mewtwo:

 

[M15t3R E]

So it's like Fox's laser? but it puts them to sleep!

:mewtwo:

Fox's lasers are weird. It lacks both knockback and stun. =s
So I don't think we can call that set or fixed knockback, as it deals no knockback.

 

[joenopride]

Can we start knocking off characters that have none? I've tested mostly everything with Marth and I feel confident that none of his attacks have fixed or set knockback.

The only question marks are all of the hits of multi-jab down-b. The 1st, 3rd, and last hits I am confident do not have fixed knockback. I just can't get that ****ed 2nd hit to connect!

 

[The_Dyne]

Peach's first jab.
Her upB except for last hit and the lingering hit box.
Her Dair is NOT fixed. Any of the hits. Seriously, just tested it.

 

[M15t3R E]

^Peach's first jab is already on the list.

So what about Snake's nair before the final hit?

 

[Denzi]

DangR said it was fixed..... was he wrong?
:mewtwo:

Yes, I just checked. Purple Pikmin aren't fixed.

 

[The_Dyne]

Oh, crap. I forgot to list those too. Yeah...

Snake's Nair and Dair before final hit...

 

[Yuna]

So it's like Fox's laser? but it puts them to sleep!

:mewtwo:

Only Fox's laser lacks both hitstun and knockback.

 

[Denzi]

How about the wind from Pit's up B and G&W's Uair/Up B? They move you...

 

[ColinJF]

Special status effects like Sing or Zero Suit Samus's down smash or pk freeze are not instances of "hitstun". I would imagine each of these status effects has its own rules.

 

[The_Dyne]

I think we should avoid wind...

EDIT: Also, I was wrong about Wolf's weak Nair. It kills at 999%.
His upB hits, besides the kick of course.

 

[SuSa]

OP Updated, some things removed. (Fox's laser)

So what about Jigglypuffs Sing? (want more comments before I take it down)

@denzi

I don't consider that knockback

:mewtwo:

 

[Yuna]

Special status effects like Sing or Zero Suit Samus's down smash or pk freeze are not instances of "hitstun". I would imagine each of these status effects has its own rules.

In games such as Soul Calibur, this effect is referred to as "Stun" (where are "Hitstun" is an effect due to being hit, "Stun" is a special type of animation certain moves will put you in, during most of which you can mash out of).

How, Smash is a bit different in how there are many types of "Stun" with many different animations accompanying them instead of us one animation per character when you get Stunned. A similar effect of the same nature is the Staggering effect, but this isn't what's happening here.

 

[SCOTU]

i think moves that deal no knockback should be listed as "No Knockback", (this includes jigg's up b)
Moves that appear to have no knockback need to be watched out for though (i.e. falco's laser DOES have knockback).

 

[Denzi]

Should G&W's 60% bucket be counted because it's always an instant kill no matter the opponent's percent?

 

[M15t3R E]

You can take down Pikachu's down smash, primarily because the "knockback" you receive from SDI'ing out of it differs depending on your percentage.

BUT add Pikachu's fair before the final hit.

 

[SuSa]

i think moves that deal no knockback should be listed as "No Knockback", (this includes jigg's up b)
Moves that appear to have no knockback need to be watched out for though (i.e. falco's laser DOES have knockback).

So since this is a thread about Fixed/Set Knockback, should I just leave out Fox's B and Jigglypuffs Up B, or include them each in their own special category?

Jigglypuff's Up B - Stun

Fox's Neutral B - No stun OR knocback

 

[The_Dyne]

I specifically found that Pika's Fair wasn't fixed.
Also check my edit above...

 

[Yuna]

Should G&W's 60% bucket be counted because it's always an instant kill no matter the opponent's percent?

No, because knockback increases depending on percentage.

 

[joenopride]

I think the wind gusts should count as having knockback since they both register under "Max Launch Speed".

In any case, both of those move's knockback appears to be weight dependent, so it's definitely not set. If you wanna include it, the Launch Speed doesn't change based on percent.

 

[Yuna]

So since this is a thread about Fixed/Set Knockback, should I just leave out Fox's B and Jigglypuffs Up B, or include them each in their own special category?

Jigglypuff's Up B - Stun

Fox's Neutral B - No stun OR knocback

This is what I think would be best, creating a new class called "Stun". Fox's laser is unique (I think), so it, along with any moves with wind in them, should go into a "Special" category.

So we'd have:
* (Nobody Cares (any move that doesn't fit into this thread and thus remain unmentioned))
* Fixed Knockback
* Set Knockback
* Stun
* Special

 

[Denzi]

So since this is a thread about Fixed/Set Knockback, should I just leave out Fox's B and Jigglypuffs Up B, or include them each in their own special category?

Jigglypuff's Up B - Stun

Fox's Neutral B - No stun OR knocback

I'd put them in their own categories, if not just to avoid qusestions about them later.

Yuna's list looks fine to me.

 

[SuSa]

OP has been updated.

"set" knockback is mentioned next to the move if it's set.. not about to make a third group just for that. (since "set" is a "fixed" knockback that just happens to be "true" for every character. )

(Anyone want to get the wind data?)

(Should we put MPH for wind data? To start showing exactly how much 'knockback' these moves have? Should we try and get MPH data for everything that we can?)

:mewtwo:

 

[joenopride]

The definitions of each category need to be pretty strict.

I'd proprose that we use Max Launch Speed as an indicator of knockback.

Fixed Knockback - registers the same mph no matter what percent on a single character
Set Knockback - registers the same mph no matter what percent or character it is used upon
No Knockback - doesn't register mph

My two bits.

 

[joenopride]

OP has been updated.

"set" knockback is mentioned next to the move if it's set.. not about to make a third group just for that. (since "set" is a "fixed" knockback that just happens to be "true" for every character. )

(Anyone want to get the wind data?)

(Should we put MPH for wind data? To start showing exactly how much 'knockback' these moves have? Should we try and get MPH data for everything that we can?)

:mewtwo:

I have wind data already for G&W and Pit at least. Fixed Knockback.

 

[The_Dyne]

I think we should avoid wind...

EDIT: Also, I was wrong about Wolf's weak Nair. It kills at 999%.
His upB hits, besides the kick of course.

Just to make sure you see it Havokk.

Also, Lucario isn't on your list.
His first 2 jabs.
His first hit of Ftilt.
His first hit of Dair is NOT fixed.

For wind, don't forget Sheik's reappearing, or Ness' downB.

 

[SuSa]

Should I move Ganon's Side-B to "Special" since it technically has "No Knockback" according to the MLS? (Max Launch Speed)

:mewtwo:

 

[SCOTU]

I think the categories should just be "Fixed", "Set", and "No" Knockback. That covers everything that doesn't have a knockback growth, which is the point of this thread (as it looked like to me).

 

[M15t3R E]

2 things:

You typed "Forward Smash" for Pikachu. Did you mean Forward air?
Also, re-read what SmashWiki has to share with us in the OP. Certain moves have fixed knockback up until a certain %. These moves include, but are not limited to, Bowser/Charizard's fire attacks, Pikachu's t-jolt and QA, and IC's blizzard. Do you think it's worth noting these type of moves?

 

[joenopride]

Adding mph for every attack would be neat as a long term project. For now, focusing on getting all of them in and classified is probably good enough.

 

[Denzi]

You have nothing written for Olimar <_<

 

[SuSa]

2 things:

You typed "Forward Smash" for Pikachu. Did you mean Forward air?
Also, re-read what SmashWiki has to share with us in the OP. Certain moves have fixed knockback up until a certain %. These moves include, but are not limited to, Bowser/Charizard's fire attacks, Pikachu's t-jolt and QA, and IC's blizzard. Do you think it's worth noting these type of moves?

That Fsmash was for Pit, thanks for catching that.

I'm sort of just the 'editor' to all the things, letting pretty much everyone else cover the testing, Yuna/SCOTU covering anything else important.

I just throw my two cents in here and there, test things here and there, and otherwise just edit the OP.

:mewtwo:

 

[The_Dyne]

Fox's first hit of Uair.
NOT his Fair or Dair
Pika's Quick attack, Fair = NOT fixed

Sorry for any confusion caused.

Ness' (or is it Ness's?) Yo-Yo charging hits are fixed.

 

[SuSa]

You have nothing written for Olimar <_<

Side-B is like Fox's Neutral B.

It deals damage with no knockback/stun (that I know of) besides Purple, Purple is not 'fixed' or 'set' knockback, so I delete side B altogether.

I leave the character there JUST in case something is found for them (maybe Olimar's neutral air?) so I don't have to remake it.

:mewtwo:

 

[joenopride]

Did you see my Pit/G&W post?

Pit's UpB - Fixed
G&W's Uair - Fixed

 

[Denzi]

People with "windboxes" (if you decide to list them):

Pit - Up B
G&W - Up B
G&W - Uair
Tlink - Dair
Ness - Psi Magnet
Shiek - Up B

I'm pretty sure thats all of them (aside from Kirby and D3, who are already covered).

 

[The_Dyne]

Did you see my Pit/G&W post?

Pit's UpB - Fixed
G&W's Uair - Fixed

The wind you mean. Uair does have a hit box otherwise...

 

[SuSa]

Was hoping it'd be SET :/ ... all well... lol

:mewtwo:

*goes to update "Specials" in the OP*