Comprehensive "Guide" to Fixed and Set Knockback? (title pending)

[SuSa]

He can Nair lock just like a jab lock, and fox's lasers can't do that to my knowledge...

Which "weak hitbox" because I know there are some hitboxes that don't do squat for that aerial.


:mewtwo:

 

[Denzi]

Falco's Reflector is no.

Dang it, I'm wrong again (it doesn't really have much knockback till crazy high percents though.

 

[The_Dyne]

Which "weak hitbox" because I know there are some hitboxes that don't do squat for that aerial.

This is the only vid I can find that demonstrates them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_dsnSjCmb8

 

[Kinzer]

I went ahead and tested Link, his first Bair kick has set knockback.

 

[SuSa]

I went ahead and tested Link, his first Bair kick has set knockback.

So does Gale Boomerang I believe (when it knocks somebody down)

EDIT:

Wow, theres a lot more attacks then I thought there would be.

IDEAS:

Lucario's First hit of Dair?
Samus down-B bombs?
Some parts of Peach's Down air?
First 3 hits if Lucas's down air?
Falco Nair? (all but last hit)
Fox Fair (all but last hit)
Jigglypuffs Sing? (it's that awesome, to be mentioned)



:mewtwo:

 

[The_Dyne]

TL's first hit of Fsmash
TL's first hit of Dsmash? Idk can't test atm...

 

[M15t3R E]

Pikachu's thunder jolt (neutral B).

 

[The_Dyne]

Pikachu's thunder jolt (neutral B).

Ground only? Or the little air ball too?

 

[SuSa]

TL's first hit of Fsmash
TL's first hit of Dsmash? Idk can't test atm...

Both confirmed.

Second one is Semi-Confirmed. (fixed knockback only during the 'doesn't miss the 2nd swing' %'s)

:mewtwo:

 

[TheUmbreonMonarchy]

Pika Jolt = No.

 

[M15t3R E]

Ground only? Or the little air ball too?

Both seem to have exactly the same knockback, and both are fixed.

 

[SuSa]

Pika Jolt = No.

Confirmed @ 999% it hits Wario in the air.

EDIT:
Mister_E, nope.

:mewtwo:

 

[Kinzer]

Well don't look at me, I just went in training mode, picked Bowser as the dummy since he is really big, and just hit him with the first Bair kick. Didn't kill him at 0%, or at 999%, so I assume it has fixed knockback.

 

[SuSa]

Well don't look at me, I just went in training mode, picked Bowser as the dummy since he is really big, and just hit him with the first Bair kick. Didn't kill him at 0%, or at 999%, so I assume it has fixed knockback.

I'm just tired, I use Bair for HRC.

Bat Drop > ff Bair > repeat.

Racks up % for my over 2000 strat for Link.

:mewtwo:

 

[M15t3R E]

Confirmed @ 999% it hits Wario in the air.

EDIT:
Mister_E, nope.

:mewtwo:

How do you know?!
Test it yourself. I tested it from 0-200%. I tested it on Kirby, and no, I didn't test it in training mode.

 

[The_Dyne]

Pit first hit of Fsmash
Pit first hit of Utilt
Pit sideB = NO

 

[SuSa]

How do you know?!
Test it yourself. It does the same knockback from 0-200%.

When I say Confirmed @ 999% , hit Wario in the air. That means I went into Training Mode, stuck Wario at 999%, and hit him with a grounded Thunderjolt.

Then stuck him at 0% and placed him back in the starting position (first arrow of FD) and hit him with thunderjolt.

0-200% =/= 0-999%

Noticeable difference.

:mewtwo:

 

[TheUmbreonMonarchy]

Confirmed @ 999% it hits Wario in the air.

Aerial Jolts kill, grounded ones don't unless you're literally right next to the opponent, but the knockback does change from 0-999%.

 

[M15t3R E]

When I say Confirmed @ 999% , hit Wario in the air. That means I went into Training Mode, stuck Wario at 999%, and hit him with a grounded Thunderjolt.

Then stuck him at 0% and placed him back in the starting position (first arrow of FD) and hit him with thunderjolt.

0-200% =/= 0-999%

Noticeable difference.

:mewtwo:

The knockback changes by such a miniscule amount from the percentage range that truly matters, namely 0-150%, that it's practically fixed knockback.
But if you want to be really technical, then fine have it your way.

 

[Yuna]

Does Luigi's down taunt have fixed knockback even when it Meteor Smashes (as opposed to just hitting someone who's on the stage)? Test this by spamming jump after getting hit by it at different %s and seeing when you can Meteor Cancel at the earliest.

And these moves for which knockback differs depending on characters, is that not true for all moves with set knockback? The knockback is calculated based on who just got hit, but since it's set as long as it's the same character getting hit by it in testing, it counts as "set".

 

[The_Dyne]

I didn't think that you could meteor recover from Dtaunt.

Pit's Nair, except last hit of course.

 

[Villi]

The weak hitboxes of Zelda's nair have set knockback; although they can send behind, in front of, or above her depending on where she hits. Probably the same for her other multi hit moves, but there isn't a way to cancel those like you can nair.

 

[Adapt]

ZSS:

• first/second jab hits
• first hit of up-B
• 3rd hit of up-B
• first hit of up-smash
• middle hits of up-smash
• neutral B

Other:

• Charizard: first hit of bair (spike with wings)
• Kirby: spiking hit of up-B
• Luigi's down taunt. (spiking and grounded)
• Toon link: first hit of down smash
• DDD's down throw

All of these are confirmed using brawls launch speed data

 

[DanGR]

OLIMAR

Side-B - Confirmed - Except for Purple.

Purples have set knockback.

 

[ColinJF]

Luigi's down taunt does have fixed knockback.

And Yuna is right--launch speed from a fixed knockback move is always a function of w1 (and w2 if the part with just w1 exceeds 2550).

 

[Yuna]

I didn't think that you could meteor recover from Dtaunt.

Pit's Nair, except last hit of course.

You can Meteor Cancel all Meteor Smashes in Brawl (AFAIK).

Also, D3's moves technically have set knockback on dthrow no matter who he dthrows, whether he can infinite them or not. The fact that the knockback changes if the move gets staled is inconsequential since this is true for all moves which stale.

Of course knockback changes if a move is staled. But if at the same level of stalement, the opponent will always fly off the same set distance no matter what % they have, then the knockback is set.

Luigi's down taunt does have fixed knockback.

Also as a Meteor Smash (it's not like I get hit by it often enough to know)? It's kinda the Luigi Shine then! Only useless.

And Yuna is right

It sounds so sexy coming from your mouth.

 

[SuSa]

Does Luigi's down taunt have fixed knockback even when it Meteor Smashes (as opposed to just hitting someone who's on the stage)? Test this by spamming jump after getting hit by it at different %s and seeing when you can Meteor Cancel at the earliest.

And these moves for which knockback differs depending on characters, is that not true for all moves with set knockback? The knockback is calculated based on who just got hit, but since it's set as long as it's the same character getting hit by it in testing, it counts as "set".

First part:

No tourney legal stage allows you to recover from it... you can tech into the stage, but thats it.

For differing on characters, I mean it differs vastly.

DeDeDe's CG on Falco, DeDeDe's CG on Mario, for two examples.

:mewtwo:

 

[ColinJF]

The reason Dedede's down throw "differs vastly" is that it gives launch speeds both above and below 2550, and once you cross 2550 there is a w2 * c term.

Really, "differing vastly" doesn't mean anything specific though.

 

[M15t3R E]

Okay here's one. Pikachu's bair. It is a multi-hit attack that has relatively no knockback before its final hit.
An opponent can break out of the bair before the final hit if the Pikachu doesn't execute it correctly or hits the ground before it's over, but the knockback will still be the same.
I figured since others are talking about the first or last hits of a jab combo, I should be allowed to break down other moves like Pikachu's bair, amirite?
EDIT: D-smash is the same as Bair in this regard.

 

[Yuna]

No tourney legal stage allows you to recover from it... you can tech into the stage, but thats it.

So it's just so strong you cannot Meteor Cancel it in time even on, say, FD?

For differing on characters, I mean it differs vastly.

Doesn't matter. The knockback is set. It's always the same knockback no matter what %. It's just that some characters weigh more or less than others or just randomly fly off differently. The knockback is still set. If you hit Kirby with X-move, if the knockback stays the same whether he's at 0% or 999%, then it's set, even if Yoshi flies off at a different distance (but still always the same).

 

[SuSa]

The reason Dedede's down throw "differs vastly" is that it gives launch speeds both above and below 2550, and once you cross 2550 there is a w2 * c term.

Really, "differing vastly" doesn't mean anything specific though.

The fact characters like Pikachu/Zelda/Sheik/Falco/Meta Knight get the knockback they get compared to the rest makes it... well I guess Semi-Correct? lol

EDIT:

Yuna puts up a very good argument, about whats "set". I'm wrong thanks for showing me the light.

ps:

Yuna is always right it seems like.

:mewtwo:

 

[Flamingo]

I believe that the spiking hitbox on both ivysaurs nair and charizards bair have set knockback

Lol Ivy's nair doesn't spike.. O.o

 

[Adapt]

On moves with set knockback, stale moves has no effect on the knockback

The stale move system only effects the growth rate of a move's knockback, and since these moves have no growth rate... the speed at which they knock people is unchanged.

and of course moves with set knockback will vary between characters. The point is that they don't change with more damage.

The fact characters like Pikachu/Zelda/Sheik/Falco/Meta Knight get the knockback they get compared to the rest makes it... well I guess Semi-Correct? lol

It's still set knockback for that particular character

 

[SuSa]

On moves with set knockback, stale moves has no effect on the knockback

The stale move system only effects the growth rate of a move's knockback, and since these moves have no growth rate... the speed at which they knock people is unchanged.

and of course moves with set knockback will vary between characters. The point is that they don't change with more damage.



It's still set knockback for that particular character

Read my edit, and I may add the first part of this post to the OP

:mewtwo:

 

[M15t3R E]

The fact characters like Pikachu/Zelda/Sheik/Falco/Meta Knight get the knockback they get compared to the rest makes it... well I guess Semi-Correct? lol

EDIT:

Yuna puts up a very good argument, about whats "set". I'm wrong thanks for showing me the light.

ps:

Yuna is always right it seems like.

I thought Yuna's argument was already understood to be considered "set" knockback.
If any one particular character receives the same knockback every time, then it's "set". Duh.
Few moves are the same set knockback regardless of the opponent.

 

[Yuna]

Shouldn't every single one of Zelda's multi-hit moves qualify for having no knockback (for the initial hits)? Or does knockback actually increase with damage?

After all, they just stun you for the final hit, they don't knock you anywhere.

I thought Yuna's argument was already understood to be considered "set" knockback.
If any one particular character receives the same knockback every time, then it's "set". Duh.
Few moves are the same set knockback vs. the entire cast.

Exactly, AFAIK, this is the definition of "set" knockback. And very few moves have the same knockback no matter which character is being hit, yes. Fox's Shine, for instance, in Melee, had differing knockback depending on character (not entirely sure about Brawl).

 

[SuSa]

Shouldn't every single one of Zelda's multi-hit moves qualify for having no knockback (for the initial hits)? Or does knockback actually increase with damage?

After all, they just stun you for the final hit, they don't knock you anywhere.

If you can't DI out, sure why not.

Even if you can, I think those are set anyways.

*goes to edit up*

*this should go with basically all multi-hit moves that stun*

:mewtwo:

 

[M15t3R E]

Shouldn't every single one of Zelda's multi-hit moves qualify for having no knockback (for the initial hits)? Or does knockback actually increase with damage?

After all, they just stun you for the final hit, they don't knock you anywhere.


Exactly, AFAIK, this is the definition of "set" knockback. And very few moves have the same knockback no matter which character is being hit, yes. Fox's Shine, for instance, in Melee, had differing knockback depending on character (not entirely sure about Brawl).

Yes, technically. This is the same argument that I made for Pikachu's bair and d-smash.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna puts up a very good argument, about whats "set". I'm wrong thanks for showing me the light.

(I'm a bit late, just saw it)
You're welcome.

Yuna is always right it seems like.

Not always. Just a vast majority of the time.

 

[SuSa]

(I'm a bit late, just saw it)
You're welcome.


Not always. Just a vast majority of the time.

I see a lot of your arguments over many things.

You're right, a lot.


I'm still suprised theres this many moves.....


More things to test:

Is Mario's cape "set" (unless it reverses a move obviously)
Luigi's Down-B (except last hit?)

:mewtwo: