Competitve Smash vs Competitve 2D fighters. Discussion.

[Laijin]

Hello everyone.
There is a topic I have thinking about for awhile now and that 2D Fighters & Smash. The point of this topic is for me to find out the true opinions of what most people that play 2D fighters think of smash and vice versa. Just replace the phrase "2D fighter" with the best 2D fighter of your choice(MvC2, SFIV, Guilty Gear,etc etc), it doesn't really matter. What I am looking for is just some feedback on the thoughts of what each community thinks of the other. So please try to make intelligent posts and if you dislike something about the other, please give reasons why. So please bare with me and follow this post and give me feedback on your opinions. I would really like an intelligent discussion to evolve from this.

To save some arguments from happening, there are a couple of things I would like to point out before I start. We will just say these are true to save us from some potential arguments, cause thats not really the point of this thread.

1.Smash is a 2D fighter. While not obviously a traditional 2D fighter, smash shares lots of similarities to 2D fighters. So for this topic, smash is a 2D fighter.

2. When I say smash in this discussion I really mean Melee because many of the things I mention won't really apply to Brawl and most of you will agree with me when I say the top metagame for Brawl is pretty gay and not fun. Anyways..thats not the point of this topic and thats my opinion. So just keep in mind when I say smash, I mean Melee.

Alright

Anyways. There is one fact that remain true about both sides(Smash and 2D Fighters).

-Most smashers do not play other 2D competitive fighters.
-Most 2D fighter players DO play other 2D competitive fighters.

The reason for this is simply because obviously melee is very much so different than any other 2D fighter there. Is this big difference the reason why both don't really play the other side? If you really break it down, both games require you to critically think/react/make assumptions/mind games, etc etc. You're using your brain a lot when you play either game, however unlike other genres, the thought process is generally the same.

Now what really separates 2D fighters from smash are two things:
-I believe in smash, the player has a lot more to worry about, think of, react to and perform than a normal 2D fighter. There is a smash equivalent to every normal situation in a 2D fighter, plus more(for smash).
-Smash takes much more tech skill than most 2D fighters. Marvel & Guilty Gear are pretty close too. Its a different set of tech skill, but nonetheless the difference is there.

Pretty much what I'm saying here is smash is harder to play than 2D fighters. This is purely my opinion, but from my experience with both this is the conclusion I have come up with.

This is really my opinion here, so feel free to argue against this if you disagree. I want to get all the facts to form a strong opinion, so if I overlooked something please let me know!

Finally, Melee seems to have a lot of potential to grow. Although its not balanced by any means, it has proven time and time again to be ever changing. Just 3 years ago, we thought we knew everything about the game and made a "Final tier list" where Marth and Fox were at the top. We thought the game had hit a wall. Obviously we were wrong since the game once again took another step in evolution and evolved. The tier list shifted a bit and Marth is now considered to be one of the lower of the high tiers while Jigglypuff is now one of the best characters in the game(An unheard of thought 3 years ago).
2D fighters don't seem to have this much potential for growth. They usually hit a plateau about a year into their metagame(sometimes even less) and everything there is to know about it is known. Of course there are some exceptions to this, but eventually 2D fighters don't really have much change in their metagame after max of a few years.


Now my question for you guys is this:
Do you agree with me?
If not, please give an intelligent reason why you don't.

Also. If you have experience with both smash and 2D fighters, please post your thoughts!

If you read this, give me your opinion on what you think of my thoughts. I'll be posting this on SRK later to get their opinions as well. Thanks for your time!

Here is the equivalent SRK thread: http://shoryuken.com/f2/competitive-smash-vs-2d-fighters-discussion-254150/

 

[Rubyiris]

You got one major fact wrong:

Most smashers DO play other 2d fighters competitively.

 

[Laijin]

You got one major fact wrong:

Most smashers DO play other 2d fighters competitively.

Really? I can examples as to why that is inaccurate.

1. I have been pretty large events where both smash and another fighting game was present. I'll use the CEO in FL for example. The SFIV tournament easily had over 150 entrants while the smash tournies collectively probably had about 100(brawl & melee). There were only like two people that entered both SF and smash. Me and some other dude.

2. The largest tournaments for smash only has smash. Smash was at both EVO and Final Round(the two biggest national tournaments for fighting games). The attendance for both of those tournaments for smash sucked pretty hard when they were there(especially at FR) especially when compared to APEX, Pound and Genesis despite EVO and FR being really massively huge events.
So my only conclusion I could come up with that is that smashers don't like going to non-smash events if the only game there is not smash.

Also. How many top players in smash competitively and actively play other 2D fighters and consistently attends tournaments for them? Thats my point. In other 2D fighters, a lot of the top players play other games as well and perform well in them.

 

[Rubyiris]

Really? I can examples as to why that is inaccurate.

1. I have been pretty large events where both smash and another fighting game was present. I'll use the CEO in FL for example. The SFIV tournament easily had over 150 entrants while the smash tournies collectively probably had about 100(brawl & melee). There were only like two people that entered both SF and smash. Me and some other dude.

2. The largest tournaments for smash only has smash. Smash was at both EVO and Final Round(the two biggest national tournaments for fighting games). The attendance for both of those tournaments for smash sucked pretty hard when they were there(especially at FR) especially when compared to APEX, Pound and Genesis despite EVO and FR being really massively huge events.
So my only conclusion I could come up with that is that smashers don't like going to non-smash events if the only game there is not smash.

Also. How many top players in smash competitively and actively play other 2D fighters and consistently attends tournaments for them? Thats my point. In other 2D fighters, a lot of the top players play other games as well and perform well in them.

Nearly every person who I have personally met, or talked to online plays either GG, BB, or MVC2, or at least one competitive non-fighting game like Halo, or a rhythm sim.

 

[Laijin]

Nearly every person who I have personally met, or talked to online plays either GG, BB, or MVC2, or at least one competitive non-fighting game like Halo, or a rhythm sim.

Its usually the opposite for me. Most smashers I talk to literally don't play any other competitive fighting game. Occasionally I'll meet some that do(and some play Halo). But for the 6 years I have been in the community, its pretty uncommon/rare from my experiences. =\

Maybe its a west coast thing. lol. Most of the tournaments I have been are east coast

 

[Shoopman]

I'm gonna agree with Ruby. A lot of smashers I know dabble in either Street Fighter, BlazBlue, or MVC2. Even if they don't play competitively they still enjoy the game.

 

[Laijin]

I'm gonna agree with Ruby. A lot of smashers I know dabble in either Street Fighter, BlazBlue, or MVC2. Even if they don't play competitively they still enjoy the game.

That wasn't really my point. A lot of people "dabble" in those games.
My point was smashers don't normally play those games competitively/not as competitively as they would with smash meaning they would travel out to Apex for a national smash tourney across the nation, but wouldn't do so for like EVO since they don't take it that seriously

 

[Cosmo!]

i don't see why it matters how active smash players are in traveling to something like EVO. they are clearly two different things, some people play both, some people play one, but they are different.

most grandmaster chess players don't travel to the world series of poker. (your response to this should be, "so?")

 

[Laijin]

i don't see why it matters how active smash players are in traveling to something like EVO. they are clearly two different things, some people play both, some people play one, but they are different.

most grandmaster chess players don't travel to the world series of poker. (your response to this should be, "so?")

Alright. Maybe that was a bit of an exaggerated example.

Anyways. In my experience, I rarely meet smashers that play other games. So while it maybe true that smashers do play other games competitively, its really rare for me to personally meet one. I will say though that over the years that number has been growing for me.

 

[Laijin]

Alright. Lets just say people do play both.
Lets move on and hit the other points.
What are your opinions on my other points?

 

[Geist]

Well while I don't play any 2D fighters to the extent I've played Smash, I've dabbled in most of the well known fighters (except KoF and Melty Blood and w.e.). However I recently picked up BB and SSF4 pseudo-seriously, joined the communities, etc.

In all honesty, the communities for games with more social interaction (as opposed to a game community that's supported mostly online, like Halo), feel the same on an underlying basis. The people are dedicated, tight-knit, more friendly, etc.
Of course, I've had hostility from people because I play Smash. But I also want to point out that even though there's some bias, it mostly stems from misconceptions people have about the community, the same I would assume some smashers have towards them. The more coherent arguments I've heard stemmed either around the fact that people didn't agree with the drastic rule changes that are necessary to play the game competitively, but appreciated Smash itself (completely reasonable), and people that thought the Smash community was made up of whining kids and ******* (less true).
On SWF, SRK, Dustloop, information is provided to people who need it, and the communities mutually help eachother. Overall, beginners are generally warmly accepted in these communities, I find.

Now branching off to what I feel about gameplay, I feel like Smash is one the most difficult 2D fighters to master, along with Guilty Gear. But it's hard to really judge between the other more traditional 2D fighters, when they share a lot of similar mechanics, and it's especially hard to compare them to Smash skill-wise. The thing is that Smash carries a huge 'freestyle'-like gameplay to it, to the point where it almost feels like a dance. So many options are open at the same time, and there are so many different paths that branch out into different outcomes.
In more traditional fighters, I feel like spacing and zoning is heavily involved with baiting into complex setups. Once one move is landed, it usually is followed up by a small pool of moves that function as block strings and combos, whereas in smash, depending on DI, positioning, percentage, etc, almost any move can be followed up with any other move at some point in time. The variables are astounding.
Judging skill is still hard though. A game like street fighter demands a much different type of skill. Some haters like to describing them as 'auto-combos', without realizing the time and effort that goes into landing some of those strings, and knowing exactly when to utilize them.

I have more on my mind, but I'll stop before it gets tl;dr
it did anyways.

 

[Laijin]

Nice post! I have heard things about other communities not really respecting smash much. The most common reasons/misconception that I have heard are:

1. You guys don't use sticks. How can we take you seriously?(Seems to be a misconception within their own communities as well).
2. Most smashers are kids, they smell, and their *******.

Kids. No. For brawl this might be more true. However, for melee the average age is probably around 18-23. Everyone that plays melee played the game since they were a kid. So the community just literally grew up. Of course there are a bunch of high school kids playing the game as well, but most melee players are at least 18+ nowadays.

They smell. Happens at every tournament for any game I have been to that has a small venue with A LOT of people. People don't know what deodorant is.

Their *******(not true).

I agree though. It is pretty hard to compare smash to another 2D fighter in terms of skill. However I look at it like this: The time invested into a 2D fighter to reach absolutely pinnacle there is(the top of top metagame) takes less time than it does for smash. How is it possible to judge this? Well. Most other fighting games have hit their top metagames. Melee has not obviously. It continues to grow and change like the beast it is. Thats one of the biggest reasons why I think that.

On "auto-combos". Yes, both require you to train and practice tech skill and combos and such. However, once you really get a combo down in most 2D fighters your not likely to drop it. There are not any variables in most games that will prevent you from dropping a combo besides pure human error(Besides BB and GG where you have bursts and such). Normally in a 2D fighter, once your in the air or in hit stun, there is no way out of it. You either hope your opponent drops his combo or it ends without killing you.
In smash, you have many things to worry about, which way your opponent techs, how are they going to DI your next hit/throw, etc etc. So many variables are thrown at you at any given situation. So yea..in 2D fighters its more about baiting, footsies, block strings, mix ups, etc etc. However in smash all of these things exist plus more. Thats why I think that.

Edit: Obviously mix ups don't really exist or wake up game. Things like that. But you get the point..

 

[Geist]

Totally agree with you.
I can't say I've hit the level where I can do the more advanced combo strings though. :S
Going from the smash variation of combos to the more traditional kind left me in a bit of a shock state at first, I'm still not used to them lol. The fact I've been playing Smash for the majority of my entire life would lend a hand in that too.

And yeah that stick argument still makes me scratch my head. I'm pretty sure someone said there were a few very highly skilled players at EVO and MLG who used controllers for SF4.

 

[Laijin]

Totally agree with you.
I can't say I've hit the level where I can do the more advanced combo strings though. :S
Going from the smash variation of combos to the more traditional kind left me in a bit of a shock state at first, I'm still not used to them lol. The fact I've been playing Smash for the majority of my entire life would lend a hand in that too.

And yeah that stick argument still makes me scratch my head. I'm pretty sure someone said there were a few very highly skilled players at EVO and MLG who used controllers for SF4.

Yea. There are some REALLY good players. But even within their own community, generally if you play on Pad people don't respect you and think you automatically suck. Its the dumbest stereotype.

 

[KirbyKaze]

smash is a stupid game

 

[Signia]

In my experience most smashers (that I've seen on the boards) do indeed know very little about other FG communities.

I myself have never been actively part of a 2D FG community, I but I was active (ish) in communities for 3D fighters SoulCaliburIV and VirtuaFighter5. Both local communities had players of higher average age than my local smash community. However, I do enjoy playing any random 2D fighter I can get my hands on.

In comparison to 2D fighters, Melee feels like such a patchwork game. It barely holds together, and the game is almost designed by its community the way the rules have affected it. Obviously this is was good for the game, but things like changing the stage rules can seriously impact the effectiveness of characters and playstyles.

Also, Melee's system is incredibly hard to understand in comparision to 2D fighters. I've played very few smashers that actually understand how DI really works or who has frame advantage at any given time (ask yourself if you even know how/why crouch canceling works the way it does based on knowledge of DI). So many smashers, when I question the reasoning behind their choices, reply with "I just do things and they work, so I keep doing them." It feels so much harder to figure out an opponent playing smash than it is for 2D fighters. It seems that this is the case because the game is so complicated that almost every player is still in that "newb phase" where they don't know what beats what. Matches seem to be more about knowing more than your opponent (like how to play the matchup or edgeguard effectively) than predicting your opponent correctly. Even those are overshadowed by the dexterity requirement. I've played well over a year and I still don't know what beats what in any given situation, and I think very few people do.

What you end up with is players just guessing what to do next. Combined with the sheer amount of options you have at any given time, it becomes close to impossible to predict what players like these will do next. The solution here is to cover a lot of options at once, but this situation leads to players not considering what their opponents are thinking or planning, which is the core of multiplayer aspect of competitive games. The de-emphasis of this is a real turn-off for me, and this may be the case for other gamers of other competitive communities.

Now look at more traditional 2D fighters. Their systems are simpler, and much easier to understand. Now, complexity is good, make no mistake, but Smash's complexity often feels like inconsistency. Stale moves, 3 hitboxes per move, analog stick inputs, analog shielding (hardshielding, lightshielding, or in between produces different amounts of knockback and shieldstun), 3 phases of DI (SDI, ASDI, DI), and varied knockback based on percentage, weight and fall speed? So many variables to consider when figuring what will happen next, and in turn what you should do next. Inability to see wtf will happen next reflects bad design. The GAME ITSELF should be predictable. Unpredictability should come from your opponent's choices. I am sure the game is very predictable, it's design elegant, even, to Magus420 but the system is too cryptic for even your average hardcore gamer.

Despite these problems, I still love Melee for its fluid controls allowing for fast-paced and exciting play. Just don't think that Melee is the pinnacle of game design, please.

 

[ryuu seika]

Thanks Signia, you've just explained to me why this game is so great.

Never understanding the full workings of a game means the magic never wears off.

 

[G.L.]

i love smash, but i enjoy other 2 d fighters also. the reason i like smash more is just because of the enhanced movement. i played MvC and i really liked it. the other 2d fighters are fun and i can respect why others play them , but i like the originality of the smash combos, (not that other games aren't original) but both are fun. i think that once you get to a high level of play, other fighters can get as deep as smash does.

 

[Laijin]

Thanks Signia, you've just explained to me why this game is so great.

Never understanding the full workings of a game means the magic never wears off.

Wow. I never thought about it like that. But that is a key reason why the game still continues to grow and change dramatically even close to 9 years after its release. Its truly wonderful really. You never know what to expect next and the game has yet to get old for most of us.

 

[EPsilon933]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK7cgQR1MSs&feature=email&email=comment_received

ninjachipzanuff
16 minutes ago
gay, 0/5 stars, get cancer and die

Hopefully these traditional fighter kids are the scrubbiest among the community, right? 16% of the comments on this video were insulting Smash (before I gave up tolerating and started blocking users and deleting posts). It's so annoying.

After peeking at his channel a bit, thankfully he is a pathetic scrub. Forget this comment?

 

[Laijin]

Here is the equivalent SRK thread:
As expected, its already getting a lot of ignorant posts. I don't really expect anything intelligent to come out from that thread given those communities. Stereotypes are not built from nothing.

http://shoryuken.com/f2/competitive-smash-vs-2d-fighters-discussion-254150/

 

[Pengie]

I think SRK is hilarious. The stereotype used to be that they hated everything that wasn't Capcom, but now their hate is so far up its own *** that they started to hate on Capcom's **** too

 

[Laijin]

Now their arguing about if smash is a fighting game or not.

One dude even said they hate the community because the players are immature/childish.
Whaaat.
Can't remember the last time I saw those characteristics in a smash player.

 

[LLDL]

Only other fighting game other than smash that I've been playing is Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, and Street Fighter Alpha 3.

 

[Walt]

I know Lucien plays SFIV(I think MvC2 too) and pretty sure Bob$ plays Guilty Gear. I've been learning GG from a friend who is one of the best Guilty Gear players in norcal. Also my best friend who quit smash is very competitive at Blaz Blue and Guilty Gear.

 

[Zodiac]

You got one major fact wrong:

Most smashers DO play other 2d fighters competitively.

I wouldnt say most but yes they do play other fighters, I play Brawl,melee,third strike, TvC and soon to be ssf4. My favorite remains smash but what Im finding is that traditional 2d fighters are kind of like really fast versions of brawl. camp camp camp and then a burst of activity. and melee is just so different you cant really compare it. but it has longer burt's than 2d fighters have generally.

 

[Masmasher@]

i love smash but im gonna keep it 100
DO NOT POST THIS ON SRK

 

[Laijin]

Yea I learned that the hard way.
Its pretty much come down to this:

They don't like fighting games that are different from Street Fighter.

 

[Pengie]

Actually that thread that was posted seems to be staying somewhat civil. Who knows maybe they're will actually be an intelligent discussion on SRK

 

[Laijin]

Actually that thread that was posted seems to be staying somewhat civil. Who knows maybe they're will actually be an intelligent discussion on SRK

lol @ intelligent discussion.

Yea I doubt that.

 

[Masmasher@]

In my experience most smashers (that I've seen on the boards) do indeed know very little about other FG communities.

I myself have never been actively part of a 2D FG community, I but I was active (ish) in communities for 3D fighters SoulCaliburIV and VirtuaFighter5. Both local communities had players of higher average age than my local smash community. However, I do enjoy playing any random 2D fighter I can get my hands on.

In comparison to 2D fighters, Melee feels like such a patchwork game. It barely holds together, and the game is almost designed by its community the way the rules have affected it. Obviously this is was good for the game, but things like changing the stage rules can seriously impact the effectiveness of characters and playstyles.

Also, Melee's system is incredibly hard to understand in comparision to 2D fighters. I've played very few smashers that actually understand how DI really works or who has frame advantage at any given time (ask yourself if you even know how/why crouch canceling works the way it does based on knowledge of DI). So many smashers, when I question the reasoning behind their choices, reply with "I just do things and they work, so I keep doing them." It feels so much harder to figure out an opponent playing smash than it is for 2D fighters. It seems that this is the case because the game is so complicated that almost every player is still in that "newb phase" where they don't know what beats what. Matches seem to be more about knowing more than your opponent (like how to play the matchup or edgeguard effectively) than predicting your opponent correctly. Even those are overshadowed by the dexterity requirement. I've played well over a year and I still don't know what beats what in any given situation, and I think very few people do.

What you end up with is players just guessing what to do next. Combined with the sheer amount of options you have at any given time, it becomes close to impossible to predict what players like these will do next. The solution here is to cover a lot of options at once, but this situation leads to players not considering what their opponents are thinking or planning, which is the core of multiplayer aspect of competitive games. The de-emphasis of this is a real turn-off for me, and this may be the case for other gamers of other competitive communities.

Now look at more traditional 2D fighters. Their systems are simpler, and much easier to understand. Now, complexity is good, make no mistake, but Smash's complexity often feels like inconsistency. Stale moves, 3 hitboxes per move, analog stick inputs, analog shielding (hardshielding, lightshielding, or in between produces different amounts of knockback and shieldstun), 3 phases of DI (SDI, ASDI, DI), and varied knockback based on percentage, weight and fall speed? So many variables to consider when figuring what will happen next, and in turn what you should do next. Inability to see wtf will happen next reflects bad design. The GAME ITSELF should be predictable. Unpredictability should come from your opponent's choices. I am sure the game is very predictable, it's design elegant, even, to Magus420 but the system is too cryptic for even your average hardcore gamer.

Despite these problems, I still love Melee for its fluid controls allowing for fast-paced and exciting play. Just don't think that Melee is the pinnacle of game design, please.

about advantage theres some tiny inconsistency with smash
nothing completely devastatiing but think about it
when fox or falco does a illusion some times the edgeguraders attack will clank with it, or they will go right through . also phatom hits really piss off traditional 2d players.

 

[Pengie]

I think that might have to do with the fact that the hitbox on Fox/Falco's side B is behind them which leads to weird timings when someone tries to hit them out of it.

 

[Walt]

about advantage theres some tiny inconsistency with smash
nothing completely devastatiing but think about it
when fox or falco does a illusion some times the edgeguraders attack will clank with it, or they will go right through . also phatom hits really piss off traditional 2d players.

Clanking Illusion means you hit too late since the hitbox comes in behind where fox/falco are. So you are just clanking with a hitbox that has no character to hit. Which is why Illusion probably has the worst priority in the game since they have to put their body in front of the hitbox.

 

[Tranzworld]

This was actually something that came up over on Dustloop's XBL thread a few weeks ago. I crossposted someones thoughts about smash over here in one of my posts, I still have it:

I have a question for you guys who play smash competitively. Why do you guys play with such "ridiculous" rules? I've always personally hated to whole competitive smash scene. You guys come up with so many rules as to what makes the game "balance" but what you fail to realize is that smash was not made like other fighters, and instead of playing it in its entirety you deside what stays and gos to make it a "fair" game. I mean you guys talk about how a flat stage is neutral, which is false cause a flat stage favors some characters over others. You're going by the whole flat stage idea from other FGs, but you fail to realize that smash isn't like other FGs. It wasn't made with the typical FG balance in mind. The stages, and the items where made to balance the game overall.
So why do you guys insist that the game mush be played a certain way, claiming that the way you play it is the most balanced, even though there is no proof to show that it is balanced? Infact the way you guys play smash is the reason why metaknight, snake, DD are all top.

I think that while this is adressed more towards brawl players than melee players, I think that it still shows that all FG communities have a huge misunderstanding of eachother. A lot of it I believe is mindset. I've never played smash at a competetive level that you guys have, but something that really sticks out to me is the lack of a WANT to understand eachother.

Airdashers vs. Regular Fighters vs. Smash all take completely different skillsets to succeed in, and in all other 2D fighters minds', there is no skill involved in smash.

Also, Melee's system is incredibly hard to understand in comparision to 2D fighters. I've played very few smashers that actually understand how DI really works or who has frame advantage at any given time

I think this probably illustrates one of the major differences in the communities. Knowing frame advantages, when to tech, things like that are all essential parts of those games, and the lack of it confuses many 2D players.


I myself have converted to playing Guilty Gear and Blazblue since I started playing smash. I enjoy the longer combos and the thinking involved. Smash is, in my opinion, a bit more streamlined and requires more on the fly thinking and adaption, whereas GG/BB have a lot more depth when it comes to patience, blocking, getting advantages and taking them.


However, at the end of the day, we're comparing apples and oranges. Smash is a fighting game unlike any other and you're never going to be able to satisfy every community.





In terms of your thoughts that smash takes more skill:

Play Carl, or Eddie, or Taokaka, or Dizzy, or Zappa dog mode. These characters require some of the most ridiculous execution that i've ever seen, and the skill required to play these characters at a high level is mind blowing.

I can't provide an opinion myself, but I would say that it's two different games that require different skillsets, and applying them may seem easier to one person or another.

 

[Pengie]

Very good post, but I would like to point out that comparing the execution barrier in Smash to the barrier in GG/BB is a little insane. Sometimes it seems like Arcsys was purposely trying to incorporate ridiculous input windows. As far as execution goes, Melee is closest to Marvel where things just happened to pan out that some characters had crazy techskill requirements.

 

[Laijin]

For the record, I have played Guilty Gear and Blazblue competitively. I was easily one of the best BB: CS players in my region(Central FL) when I played and I did play Guilty Gear with the likes of Senkei and Hotnix while I lived in CFL. So I know how difficult execution can be in those games and yes, it is pretty insane.

In terms of execution, Marvel and Guilty Gear are closest to melee. In my opinion, the execution barrier for melee is a bit higher than GG, but that statement is not ment to discredit GG's execution barrier. Its very high still and not easy to learn. I'm not sure about MvC2's barrier, but it looks very technical as well. So I can't really accurately judge that I guess.
I say it in the OP purely to invoke discussion.
I sure do wish SRK could make intelligent posts like you guys do.

 

[Tranzworld]

For the record, I have played Guilty Gear and Blazblue competitively. I was easily one of the best BB: CS players in my region(Central FL) when I played and I did play Guilty Gear with the likes of Senkei and Hotnix while I lived in CFL. So I know how difficult execution can be in those games and yes, it is pretty insane.

In terms of execution, Marvel and Guilty Gear are closest to melee. In my opinion, the execution barrier for melee is a bit higher than GG, but that statement is not ment to discredit GG's execution barrier. Its very high still and not easy to learn. I'm not sure about MvC2's barrier, but it looks very technical as well. So I can't really accurately judge that I guess.
I say it in the OP purely to invoke discussion.
I sure do wish SRK could make intelligent posts like you guys do.

I think you're looking at applying concepts here.

Wavedashing and any other technique in Melee is not nearly as difficult (the Practical ones, that is).

APPLYING it during a match is on a completely different level, though, which is what I think you're confusing with "execution barrier".

Maybe i'm reading your post wrong, though.

 

[Laijin]

I think you're looking at applying concepts here.

Wavedashing and any other technique in Melee is not nearly as difficult (the Practical ones, that is).

APPLYING it during a match is on a completely different level, though, which is what I think you're confusing with "execution barrier".

Maybe i'm reading your post wrong, though.

Hmm.
I guess when you really look at it, that can apply to most games really.
Learning all the basic techniques(Wave dashing ,l-cancelling, etc etc) are not extremely difficult. Its applying to actual matches is the hard part.
So yea, I agree with you.

 

[Tranzworld]

Hmm.
I guess when you really look at it, that can apply to most games really.
Learning all the basic techniques(Wave dashing ,l-cancelling, etc etc) are not extremely difficult. Its applying to actual matches is the hard part.
So yea, I agree with you.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to write off any of the difficulty of Melee, but I feel like the difficulty of learning the basic AT's and how to do them pales in comparison to the amount of time you have to put in to learn the intermediate GG and some of the more difficult BB combos.

 

[Laijin]

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to write off any of the difficulty of Melee, but I feel like the difficulty of learning the basic AT's and how to do them pales in comparison to the amount of time you have to put in to learn the intermediate GG and some of the more difficult BB combos.

Hmm. I've come to realize recently thats pretty hard to compare the two. The skill it takes to play GG and MvC2 is far different than what it takes to play melee. So it really is probably impossible to compare the two.
Lets just say its all really difficult. haha