Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[allshort17]

Okay wait. Melee can get away with SD because it was "brutally technical", but SSB4 players have to be chained to a leash because the Circle Pad misread Up B as Side B and screwed them over?

Ultimately though, we're not deciding the ruleset for only Smash 4 3DS, but all of Smash 4. The WiiU version will be out in a month, so thinking we have to design our ruleset around 3DS limitations is flawed. I do believe the argument that Melee gets a by because of the technicality is off because the tech skill is required to play the game and thus players are expected not to mess up or at least not do things they know they can mess up and result in a death. Melee's probably deserves 4-stocks because it's easier to zero to death someone in that game or score an early percent combo to death. Plus, gimps are easier.

About tension in Smash, Smash inherently will always have it because it's one of the few competitive games where you can die at any moment, even without the opponent causing it. The threat of an early SD or gimp will always be present, so everyone will still have the ability to mount a comeback. The reason why the game is taking so long now is because people aren't really playing a ledge or offstage game anymore. Once people get more accustom to gimp set-ups, break the ledge mechanics, and understand how to punish bad recoveries the game will move faster.

One could view the stocks as rounds. You could argue the 2 stocks = 2 rounds, which is standard in most fighting games. This sets-up a pacing more in-line with other fighting games, making it more accessible for people coming from the FGC to pick up and understand. This is important because the surge in Melee popularity has brought a surge in overall competitive Smash. How I see it, the system is more like Vampire Savior or Killer Instinct where players operate on essentially one life bar broken-up into 2 pieces. The system rewards close rounds because players keep all progress made. So if you're worried about coming back, again, Smash's stock system still gives a far chance to make one. More stocks will more likely increase the distance needed to mount a comeback.

 

[Leebee]

2 stocks is more like having 2/3 of your lifebar instead of the entire thing.

which, if we're going by the data that was in Thinkaman's topic about match length, is making people more wary about being offensive lest they lose a stock and essentially be about to lose.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

This little mentality right here is the heart of the problem. Why... on earth... are we determining competitive rules based on people making dumb mistakes? If you SD, you deserve to suffer. You made a mistake. The game did not suddenly cheat you. Also, what does it matter how many stock you have if you SD on your last stock?

Melee was the only game where talk of SDs influencing stock count was tolerated because it was a brutally technical game. Wavedashing off the ledge was a critical component that could easily lead to SD by flubbing the air dodge timing/angle. SDs only happen in Brawl and Sm4sh when attempting an insane edge guard. If you flub your inputs in those snail-paced games, you deserve the death.

I don't think 3 stock is the end of the world, but I still think 2 stock is the perfect amount. I'm just blown away at the justifications for 3 stock. "Tension" is a bad answer too. Melee had good tension. Brawl had long/boring/false tension.

Accidentally doing side-b instead of up-b happens WAY too often. Besides there are only 2 stocks in matches which I feel is perfect and probably won't be changed, so if you SD you automatically lose a match. I agree with the 2 stock rule,but if SDing is punished the way it is it might have to be changed. It gives no chance of making a comeback because the match ends immediately because your thumb slipped a little or if you have the original 3DS and not the XL you might have your circle pad come off (Yes this has happened to me).

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Ultimately though, we're not deciding the ruleset for only Smash 4 3DS, but all of Smash 4. The WiiU version will be out in a month, so thinking we have to design our ruleset around 3DS limitations is flawed. I do believe the argument that Melee gets a by because of the technicality is off because the tech skill is required to play the game and thus players are expected not to mess up or at least not do things they know they can mess up and result in a death. Melee's probably deserves 4-stocks because it's easier to zero to death someone in that game or score an early percent combo to death. Plus, gimps are easier.

About tension in Smash, Smash inherently will always have it because it's one of the few competitive games where you can die at any moment, even without the opponent causing it. The threat of an early SD or gimp will always be present, so everyone will still have the ability to mount a comeback. The reason why the game is taking so long now is because people aren't really playing a ledge or offstage game anymore. Once people get more accustom to gimp set-ups, break the ledge mechanics, and understand how to punish bad recoveries the game will move faster.

One could view the stocks as rounds. You could argue the 2 stocks = 2 rounds, which is standard in most fighting games. This sets-up a pacing more in-line with other fighting games, making it more accessible for people coming from the FGC to pick up and understand. This is important because the surge in Melee popularity has brought a surge in overall competitive Smash. How I see it, the system is more like Vampire Savior or Killer Instinct where players operate on essentially one life bar broken-up into 2 pieces. The system rewards close rounds because players keep all progress made. So if you're worried about coming back, again, Smash's stock system still gives a far chance to make one. More stocks will more likely increase the distance needed to mount a comeback.

I feel like 2 stocks is perfect because I have had a lot of matches that last a long time from my opponent stalling that would be even worse if there were 3 stocks. After a while I'm sure people will figure out more, but right now I think things should be more forgiving with 2 stocks and only losing 1 stock for SDing.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Okay wait. Melee can get away with SD because it was "brutally technical", but SSB4 players have to be chained to a leash because the Circle Pad misread Up B as Side B and screwed them over?

No, Melee does not get a free pass. As was mentioned, a much bigger reason for Melee's stock count is the general speed of the game. A stock is often lost in the first 10 seconds. More stock is required to allow for meaningful exchange of combat. SDs are far from the main reason Melee has 4 stock.

I'm sorry your 3DS is broken. I am not having those problems. We don't make rules for players being unable to control their characters properly.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

No, Melee does not get a free pass. As was mentioned, a much bigger reason for Melee's stock count is the general speed of the game. A stock is often lost in the first 10 seconds. More stock is required to allow for meaningful exchange of combat. SDs are far from the main reason Melee has 4 stock.

I'm sorry your 3DS is broken. I am not having those problems. We don't make rules for players being unable to control their characters properly.

You just must be one of the lucky few if you have not made any mistakes on smash 3DS trying to recover then.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You just must be one of the lucky few if you have not made any mistakes on smash 3DS trying to recover then.

I've made mistakes. That's not what I said. I don't have a defective 3DS as the cause of mistakes I make. And my mistakes are just that: mistakes. Why do I deserve extra stock? My opponent certainly didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Lake3ly]

Maybe

I agree with most of your post, but your first paragraph. Here's the problem: On the Wii U version specifically you would have to either transfer or create the Mii. This might seem like no hassle but what if a hundred people want to make Miis? Also what about every time you have to switch consoles? It's a very time consuming deed and people don't like to waste time at tournaments.

For 3DS I can see them allowing you to have your own Miis as long as they adhere to the "standard" (although I don't know how they would regulate that effectively), but for the Wii U version I kind of doubt you will have the freedom to make your own Miis on every Wii U console.

Maybe you could leave the height and weight? At the default at the middle of the slider. Just a thought

 

[Chiroz]

Maybe
Maybe you could leave the height and weight? At the default at the middle of the slider. Just a thought

My post was about how there will either be standard Miis or you will be forced to transfer them. No one is going to wait while you create a Mii on a console.

Either way how can you check the height and weight of a Mii without going into the Mii creator? These are hard things to check.

 

[Lake3ly]

My post was about how there will either be standard Miis or you will be forced to transfer them. No one is going to wait while you create a Mii on a console.

Either way how can you check the height and weight of a Mii without going into the Mii creator? These are hard things to check.

I'm not in favor of miis in the first place. It was just a possible counter argumentargument

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I've made mistakes. That's not what I said. I don't have a defective 3DS as the cause of mistakes I make. And my mistakes are just that: mistakes. Why do I deserve extra stock? My opponent certainly didn't do anything wrong.

Exactly you don't deserve an extra stick, you deserve to only lose 1 stock because it is simply a mistake and you should be able to come back from them.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

and you should be able to come back from them.

No. Stop saying this.

Where are you getting that I should come back? What moral imperative is driving you to say that?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

No. Stop saying this.

Where are you getting that I should come back? What moral imperative is driving you to say that?

It means you should be able to at least turn the match around in your favor if you have the ability to instead of just losing the match instantly because of a mistake.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It means you should be able to at least turn the match around in your favor if you have the ability to instead of just losing the match instantly because of a mistake.

Unless I'm missing something, an SD isn't an instant loss unless you're playing 1 stock, which I don't think is being seriously proposed by anyone.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Unless I'm missing something, an SD isn't an instant loss unless you're playing 1 stock, which I don't think is being seriously proposed by anyone.

You can set it to make you lose 2 stocks for SDing. I guess that is how it is set in tournaments because it is to punish you so you don't SD again. In a 2 stock match you would be punished by instantly losing if that is how it is set.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You can set it to make you lose 2 stocks for SDing. I guess that is how it is set in tournaments because it is to punish you so you don't SD again. In a 2 stock match you would be punished by instantly losing if that is how it is set.

I have literally never seen this used in a Smash tournament ever.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I have literally never seen this used in a Smash tournament ever.

Neither have I,but reading all the other posts on this thread that is how it seems to be.

 

[Wyntir]

Mii Fighters should be allowed in 3DS tourneys. As far as wii u, if the transfer thing from 3ds n wii u is quick n easy. Don't wanna take forever to set up a Mii or custom moves

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Mii Fighters should be allowed in 3DS tourneys. As far as wii u, if the transfer thing from 3ds n wii u is quick n easy. Don't wanna take forever to set up a Mii or custom moves

Yeah I think the 3DS version could have custom tournaments since you don't have to wait to set custom moves up you just set them up on your own time.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You can set it to make you lose 2 stocks for SDing. I guess that is how it is set in tournaments because it is to punish you so you don't SD again. In a 2 stock match you would be punished by instantly losing if that is how it is set.

... wat? You can make it so you lose 2 points for SD'ing in Time mode. I have never seen that option for stock. You lose 1 stock per death no matter what.

 

[Ben Holt]

I think most people would agree that more stocks = more accurate tests of skill. Theoretically, 99-stock would be the most accurate game.
But what people are ultimately debating on is time. I know TOs would want shorter games, but we should be thinking about the players primarily. Players probably wouldn't want excessively long games either, but they would want ample time to adapt. So in my opinion, 3 stock is the perfect compromise between accurate skill testing and reasonable length.
2 stock is simply too short.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

... wat? You can make it so you lose 2 points for SD'ing in Time mode. I have never seen that option for stock. You lose 1 stock per death no matter what.

Ah okay I feel really dumb now. Why were discussing SDing being punished in the first place then?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You can set it to make you lose 2 stocks for SDing. I guess that is how it is set in tournaments because it is to punish you so you don't SD again. In a 2 stock match you would be punished by instantly losing if that is how it is set.

Unless you're playing Timed Matches without Stocks, this is absolutely irrelevant.


Instead of saying either 2 or 3 stocks, I say we can fit both of them in the same tournament.

To speed the tournament up and weed out the SDers and Easily Gimpable Players, we should use 2 stocks, 5 minutes, bo3 in the early matches.
To build up hype for the later matches like Quarterfinals and Semis, we should use 3 stocks, 7 minutes, bo3 from top 16 on.
The reasoning for that is that the tournament runs faster, and the hype for the main matches have a proper build up.
Both 2 Stocks and 3 Stocks are flawed alone. (Not that my solution doesn't have it's flaws)

Custom Moves should be allowed. They are a big feature in Smash 4 and they're not overly unbalanced.
Equipment is banned on sight though. The core of this game's balancing should be maintained. We can't have Ganondorf with Sonic's Speed and OHKO power with super armor or some silly stuff like that.

Mii Fighters are a curious case. Apparently there's a difference between body types, but they are probably balanced somehow or are subtle enough to be irrelevant.

Regarding stages, I don't have the 3DS version and the Wii U version is not out yet, so I really shouldn't be commentating this kind of stuff.
But it's important to note that there are 2 Omega Styles. Platform and Tower. On ban stage, the player should be able to ban both or only one of the forms, and have free pick between any Omega forms it wants.
Platform Omegas have stalling tactics like Sonic's Homing Attack one and Tower favors characters with wall jumps or specials like ZSS Flip Jump.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have a question that may have been asked already but if it has I don't remember the answer. So forgive me if this is redundant.

What practical difference would there be between 3 stock BO3 and 2 stock BO5 matches? Right now the only real difference that comes to mind is between-match processes like counterpicking and striking happening more often, but if the players and tournament setup are efficient about it I'm not sure how much time that would really add. From a gameplay and results perspective I have absolutely no idea.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I have a question that may have been asked already but if it has I don't remember the answer. So forgive me if this is redundant.

What practical difference would there be between 3 stock BO3 and 2 stock BO5 matches? Right now the only real difference that comes to mind is between-match processes like counterpicking and striking happening more often, but if the players and tournament setup are efficient about it I'm not sure how much time that would really add. From a gameplay and results perspective I have absolutely no idea.

Aside from mid-match procedures, there's a little difference in match time (The math was done in another post in this thread), and it doesn't really change nothing but a set or two of 2 stock matches.
It's kinda useful for tournaments who want to focus more on For Glory rules or players who want to keep their strategies, but it doesn't help to fix any of the 2 stock match problems. (Short individual match, less risky play, gimp prone and etc.)

As I said before, 2 Stock matches are good for the early matches of the tournament to speed things up so it doesn't take forever, but 3 Stock matches really build the hype for late matches.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Aside from mid-match procedures, there's a little difference in match time (The math was done in another post in this thread), and it doesn't really change nothing but a set or two of 2 stock matches.
It's kinda useful for tournaments who want to focus more on For Glory rules or players who want to keep their strategies, but it doesn't help to fix any of the 2 stock match problems. (Short individual match, less risky play, gimp prone and etc.)

As I said before, 2 Stock matches are good for the early matches of the tournament to speed things up so it doesn't take forever, but 3 Stock matches really build the hype for late matches.

I was more thinking that if 3 stock BO3 is generally seen sufficient to adapt to the opponent, then 2 stock BO5 would be worth considering since it involves a similar number of total stocks. (Slightly more, actually.) The difference would be instead of adapting over the course of a match, you'd adapt over the course of a set. It would also increase the influence of counterpicking and possibly necessitate a wider stage list. All of these could be argued as either positives or negatives, really, depending on how one thinks a tournament should play out.

Plus the between-match time issues I mentioned earlier.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

No, Melee does not get a free pass. As was mentioned, a much bigger reason for Melee's stock count is the general speed of the game. A stock is often lost in the first 10 seconds. More stock is required to allow for meaningful exchange of combat. SDs are far from the main reason Melee has 4 stock.

I'm sorry your 3DS is broken. I am not having those problems. We don't make rules for players being unable to control their characters properly.

And who is the "we" making these rules? If Brawl was set to 3 stocks and SSB4 plays similarly, then there's no reason to make such short matches at 2-stock.

 

[SixSaw]

People should keep in mind when they make the argument that 2-stock games are too short to allow players to adapt that players of other fighting games make due with significantly less.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

People should keep in mind when they make the argument that 2-stock games are too short to allow players to adapt that players of other fighting games make due with significantly less.

And having played many of these fighting games, several them at a competitive, high level, 3 stocks is the way to go.

 

[Dragoomba]

And who is the "we" making these rules? If Brawl was set to 3 stocks and SSB4 plays similarly, then there's no reason to make such short matches at 2-stock.

Except for the fact that characters live twice as long in this game. Also, many Brawl players have thought Brawl should have been 2 stocks for a while now due to its campy gameplay.

 

[Wyntir]

Yeah I think the 3DS version could have custom tournaments since you don't have to wait to set custom moves up you just set them up on your own time.

That will bring a great diverse to both versions competively but that's a good thing honestly

 

[EclipseSmash]

People should keep in mind when they make the argument that 2-stock games are too short to allow players to adapt that players of other fighting games make due with significantly less.

You cant SD though in f.e. Street Fighter, can you?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

And who is the "we" making these rules? If Brawl was set to 3 stocks and SSB4 plays similarly, then there's no reason to make such short matches at 2-stock.

I've been trying to convey to you: Brawl's choice of 3 stock was flawed. There was no Brawl-specific criteria applied to arrive at 3 stock. Brawl was flooded by ex Melee players because everyone had high expectations from that game. 3 stock was chosen because it roughly resembled the length of a 4 stock Melee match. Years went by; it became clear that Brawl just wasn't even the same game. More Brawl matches went to time than I've ever seen at a tournament. And when I challenged this notion with Brawl advocates, I was told that the stalling is "exciting" and "part of the game" and "an important strategy". To me, that just made it a bad game, but I'll let that argument die with the game.

Brawl should have been 2 stock. As a result, I feel Smash 4 should be 2 stock.

 

[Chimera]

I've been trying to convey to you: Brawl's choice of 3 stock was flawed. There was no Brawl-specific criteria applied to arrive at 3 stock. Brawl was flooded by ex Melee players because everyone had high expectations from that game. 3 stock was chosen because it roughly resembled the length of a 4 stock Melee match. Years went by; it became clear that Brawl just wasn't even the same game. More Brawl matches went to time than I've ever seen at a tournament. And when I challenged this notion with Brawl advocates, I was told that the stalling is "exciting" and "part of the game" and "an important strategy". To me, that just made it a bad game, but I'll let that argument die with the game.

Brawl should have been 2 stock. As a result, I feel Smash 4 should be 2 stock.

Smash 4 is not the same game as Brawl. For the same reason that you advocate that Brawl should not have 3 stock ( "wasn't even the same game" are your words), Brawl should not be dictating the stock count for Smash 4.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

2 Stock isn't so short. Especially with many players not taking too much risks near the ledge due to the new ledge mechanics and SD/Gimping risks. Not to mention Vectoring. (Which coupled with the current blastzones makes killing a daunting task)

SD's happen in the 3DS version. In the Wii U version? Nope. Not even on Wiimote + Nunchuck. Gimping is a strong strategy in this game and players are supposed to know that there's this risk and possibility.

But what most people seem to be forgetting while discussing this is that Tournaments aren't just a bunch of matches in quick session. There is a time issue with both Streaming and Schedule.
And more important, the public. When people watch a Tournament (Both Competitive, Casual and Players waiting for their match mid-tournament) they want to see mainly 2 things. High-Level play and unchartable amounts of Hype.

If all matches take long, especially with the currently defensive metagame, people will get tired. It already happens, which is one of the reasons we're discussing this. We need tournaments that run quickly, smoothly, and are hype.
Unfortunately, large scale tournaments currently take too long. As such, 2 stock matches are optimal in the early stages to speed the bracket up and finish the tournament in a reasonable time.

It also has the advantage of giving high level footage in a format similar to For Glory, which is a mockery designed to raise interest about the competitive side of smash. If casual players want to improve, they watch good quality footage and learn tactics and techniques that improve their win ratio and as a result, get better and wanting to learn more. If we have a format similar to For Glory but with more stages, we develop these players curiosity and let them study more and join the competitive community as a result.

When the bracket gets small enough (16 Players) we change to a 3 Stock, 7 Minute, Bo3 Format to extend matches, and give players more room to work with regarding Risk-Reward and it has the great effect of hyping the crowd and stream watchers by giving the distinct impression of "Now only the best players remain. The real matches start now."

We can't just play the game. We can't just develop the current competitive scene. We have to extend it. We have to think bigger.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Smash 4 is not the same game as Brawl. For the same reason that you advocate that Brawl should not have 3 stock ( "wasn't even the same game" are your words), Brawl should not be dictating the stock count for Smash 4.

Fine, but characters live longer in Smash 4 so far. It is stupid hard to finish people. We've gone from Samus' charge shot being able to kill at 75% (Melee) to not killing at 150%. So, Smash 4 matches should be 1 stock! :D

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I've been trying to convey to you: Brawl's choice of 3 stock was flawed. There was no Brawl-specific criteria applied to arrive at 3 stock. Brawl was flooded by ex Melee players because everyone had high expectations from that game. 3 stock was chosen because it roughly resembled the length of a 4 stock Melee match. Years went by; it became clear that Brawl just wasn't even the same game. More Brawl matches went to time than I've ever seen at a tournament. And when I challenged this notion with Brawl advocates, I was told that the stalling is "exciting" and "part of the game" and "an important strategy". To me, that just made it a bad game, but I'll let that argument die with the game.

Brawl should have been 2 stock. As a result, I feel Smash 4 should be 2 stock.

I don't know who in their right mind would think that stalling was a legitimate strategy, but maybe this is not only why I didn't watch Brawl tournaments, but I'm also glad I wasn't involved. Thanks to the new ledge punishing frames - when you cling a ledge twice, it's a freebie to your opponent - I seriously doubt that's going to happen like it used to. Some people might say it takes longer to die in this game, but I don't see it. Gimping is as strong as ever, and as several others have said, 2-stocks is just too short of a match. I mean, if the point is to make tournaments shorter, then it sounds like you're just trying to rush them out the door. And honestly, having played other fighting games where lifebars can last quite a while, I think 3-stock matches are just as good as "best 2 out of 3" rounds used in other series like Street Fighter, Injustice, and Mortal Kombat. And honestly, if they were "3 out of 5" rounds, that WOULD be too long.

Except for the fact that characters live twice as long in this game. Also, many Brawl players have thought Brawl should have been 2 stocks for a while now due to its campy gameplay.

This is the first I've heard of that. I always played 3-stocks in Brawl in serious matches, and yet, I've also seen people argue that 4-stocks would be suitable in SSBB and SSB4, which would indeed be far too long. Even if it is campy and not offensive, in-your-face waveshine combo fast, 3-stocks is a perfect balance.

2 = too short.
4 = too long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Gimping is as strong as ever, and as several others have said, 2-stocks is just too short of a match. I mean, if the point is to make tournaments shorter, then it sounds like you're just trying to rush them out the door.

This is the only reason I will tolerate 3 stock. At least the stupid edge game has been drastically simplified. You can rely on the fact that the opponent has to do something as the invincibility wears off. I still vehemently disagree that 2 stock is too short (mainly due to all attacks being weaker in general), but I don't think 3 stock will "ruin the game" or anything.

 

[Chimera]

Fine, but characters live longer in Smash 4 so far. It is stupid hard to finish people. We've gone from Samus' charge shot being able to kill at 75% (Melee) to not killing at 150%. So, Smash 4 matches should be 1 stock! :D

I disagree that characters live all that much longer in the new Smash, and I think gimping people and edge guarding in general to be MUCH stronger than they were in Brawl. I don't think matches at 3-stock would be much different than the 2/3 out of 2/3 games of Injustice or Street Fighter.

 

[CosmicFuzz]

Most of my games amongst friends, fellow smashers and For Glory end in about 2-3 minutes using the 2 stock, 5 minute format but I feel as though those games end way too quickly.

The key thing is that Smash 4 requires you to fight off the stage as much as you have to fight on stage. Continuing to stay in Neutral will prolong the game and match drastically compared to past Smash games.

For now I agree that 2/5 BO3 is the mode most Smashers will work with. Once the Wii U version comes out, we can truly see how the metagame evolves for Smash 4.