Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

All right. We're having a simple issue here. Can we establish an average time on 2 stock matches and 3 stock matches?
The same argument is being thrown around back and forth in 90% of the posts here (2 Stocks too short, 3 stocks too long.)
Can we have an average time based on some tournament footage to calculate an average of how long a tournament would take with either time format?

Unless we have numbers to work with, this argument will lead everyone nowhere.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

All right. We're having a simple issue here. Can we establish an average time on 2 stock matches and 3 stock matches?
The same argument is being thrown around back and forth in 90% of the posts here (2 Stocks too short, 3 stocks too long.)
Can we have an average time based on some tournament footage to calculate an average of how long a tournament would take with either time format?

Unless we have numbers to work with, this argument will lead everyone nowhere.

I honestly have had perfectly pace online matches with 2 stocks. The only long ones I've had were due to terrible lag or my opponent rolling a lot and just letting me get back to the stage when I get sent flying off.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I honestly have had perfectly pace online matches with 2 stocks. The only long ones I've had were due to terrible lag or my opponent rolling a lot and just letting me get back to the stage when I get sent flying off.

It's not just a question of pacing. It's a question of average time per match. If on average, 2 stock matches take around 3-4 minutes, then it's perfectly fine for most major tournaments. Especially in a early bracket.

And let me guess, excessive rolling and no off-stage play? Sounds like Little Mac players.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

It's not just a question of pacing. It's a question of average time per match. If on average, 2 stock matches take around 3-4 minutes, then it's perfectly fine for most major tournaments. Especially in a early bracket.

And let me guess, excessive rolling and no off-stage play? Sounds like Little Mac players.

Lol yup you are right about the Little Mac part. I am so tired of having the first match against almost every player with them using Little Mac. Anyways, isn't a well paced match not too long,but not too short? I definitely feel like 3 stocks should be the rules once the game has been out for a little longer and people figure out how to gimp really well, but for now since the game has not been out for that long I think 2 stocks is good.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Lol yup you are right about the Little Mac part. I am so tired of having the first match against almost every player with them using Little Mac. Anyways, isn't a well paced match not too long,but not too short? I definitely feel like 3 stocks should be the rules once the game has been out for a little longer and people figure out how to gimp really well, but for now since the game has not been out for that long I think 2 stocks is good.

3 Stocks are better for matches that don't have external issues. Or simultaneous matches. I think that's going to be the competitive niche of the 3DS version. Fast tournaments, extended matches.

Considering the nature of Wii U tournaments, a fast paced schedule with 2 stocks actually works better so we can save 3 stock matches for the top matches.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

3 Stocks are better for matches that don't have external issues. Or simultaneous matches. I think that's going to be the competitive niche of the 3DS version. Fast tournaments, extended matches.

Considering the nature of Wii U tournaments, a fast paced schedule with 2 stocks actually works better so we can save 3 stock matches for the top matches.

Hmm that sounds like a pretty good idea. I mean it isn't good to assume that tournaments for the Wii U version and 3DS versions will be handled the exact same way.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

Tournament is using 2 stock format. ^_^

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

Tournament is using 2 stock format. ^_^

What was the point of showing us this?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

What was the point of showing us this?

Are you seriously asking thi-..... UGGGH. OK. Fine.

Observe! Here, we have real 2 stock matches being streamed. People may better formulate their opinions seeing how long the matches and/or what approaches the players take. Perhaps it might be really really really relevant to this discussion!

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Are you seriously asking thi-..... UGGGH. OK. Fine.

Observe! Here, we have real 2 stock matches being streamed. People may better formulate their opinions seeing how long the matches and/or what approaches the players take. Perhaps it might be really really really relevant to this discussion!

Thank you then, but you could have at least said why you linked it in the first place. There really isn't a reason to get frustrated for me asking this.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Thank you then, but you could have at least said why you linked it in the first place. There really isn't a reason to get frustrated for me asking this.

Forgive me for assuming it was incredibly obvious to bring the actual subject matter into a discussion... about said subject matter.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

Tournament is using 2 stock format. ^_^

Thanks. That'll be useful data for discussion.

 

[Terotrous]

Should anyone want to see the other option, Shockwave runs 3 stock 8 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RgOMLoIhS_pxlRHS-BErYB

I'm still firmly in the 3 stock camp. I've played and watched quite a lot of 3 stock matches and I don't feel they're too long in this game. Beyond what I posted earlier about Rage being less of a factor in 3-stock, another advantage for that ruleset is that an SD isn't an instant loss. With only 2 stocks, the comeback is pretty much impossible if you lose a stock really early.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Well at least now we have an example of 1 Tournament that run 2 stocks and another that runs 3 stocks. With that footage we can estabilish an average time per match.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

There's some data on that in here, too:

http://smashboards.com/threads/blas...m-tourney-locators-invitation-tourney.368643/

 

[eideeiit]

I honestly don't think people will ever SD on WiiU. How common are SDs among better players now?

 

[Terotrous]

I honestly don't think people will ever SD on WiiU. How common are SDs among better players now?

They definitely happen, I find at any tournament you at least see a couple, even from good players.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It is really hard to SD in Sm4sh. I guess I don't play many characters than can side-B themselves into oblivion. Even if I do something really bad (fast fall down air miss the ledge), I can usually still recover. The game is quite forgiving.

 

[eideeiit]

They definitely happen, I find at any tournament you at least see a couple, even from good players.

Do you think those SDs would happen when using a GCC? Or whatever one's preferred WiiU controller is?

 

[Terotrous]

Do you think those SDs would happen when using a GCC? Or whatever one's preferred WiiU controller is?

I'm sure that using a GCC would get rid of some of the side Bs that are supposed to be Up Bs, but it's also possible to SD when trying to sweetspot the ledge with one of those moves where you can choose the direction (ie, Fire Fox), and those will probably still happen. Also, sometimes people just think they have a jump and they don't.

 

[AvariceX]

The only times I SD in this game is when ledge camping and I get something like a side-b instead of up-b (dang 3DS circle pad), and I think anything that would even further discourage ledge camping (even with all its nerfs in this game) is a good thing for the longevity of the competitive scene.

I think 2-stock 5-minute best of 3 (with best of 5 finals) is the way to go. It's very similar to 2/3 rounds 2/3 games in Street Fighter (you can say one mistake doesn't cost you an entire round in SF the way it costs you a stock in Smash, but it basically can with how strong momentum is in fighting games, plus as mentioned you're pretty unlikely to SD anyway). A stock in Smash 4 takes as long or longer usually than a round of SF, and 2/3-2/3 is good enough to get pretty consistent results there and finish in a reasonable time so I don't see why it's not good enough for us.

3/5 (or in our case 3-stock) formats should be reserved for games which are very punishing, unforgiving, or random, of which this game is none. Brawl tournament format was a torturous mistake.

 

[Terotrous]

I think 2-stock 5-minute best of 3 (with best of 5 finals) is the way to go. It's very similar to 2/3 rounds 2/3 games in Street Fighter A stock in Smash 4 takes as long or longer usually than a round of SF.

Not quite, there's one thing you're forgetting - the opponent doesn't heal all their damage between stocks like they do between rounds in SF. 3 rounds of SF gives each character 3 full lifebars, so it takes about the same length of time as a 3-stock match. Of course, it's possible for a game to end in 2 rounds in SF, but not in Smash.

 

[AvariceX]

Not quite, there's one thing you're forgetting - the opponent doesn't heal all their damage between stocks like they do between rounds in SF. 3 rounds of SF gives each character 3 full lifebars, so it takes about the same length of time as a 3-stock match. Of course, it's possible for a game to end in 2 rounds in SF, but not in Smash.

Killer Instinct provides a more parallel example then, but I don't know if that game is played 2/3 or 3/5.

edit: MvC3 works as well. The entire reason we don't bother with rounds in Marvel is because each character is basically a round, only because of the silly nature of that game some rounds you just don't get to play (which is why we pushed for years to get 3/5 standard format at major tournaments).

 

[Terotrous]

Killer Instinct provides a more parallel example then, but I don't know if that game is played 2/3 or 3/5.

edit: MvC3 works as well. The entire reason we don't bother with rounds in Marvel is because each character is basically a round, only because of the silly nature of that game some rounds you just don't get to play (which is why we pushed for years to get 3/5 standard format at major tournaments).

Whether to play best of 3 or best of 5 is really more about the volatility of the game than how long it takes. The reason Marvel and Divekick play 3 out of 5 is because momentum carries over between "rounds", potentially allowing you to take the entire game off one good play. Smash Bros and Street Fighter reset almost everything between rounds, so 2 out of 3 is fine for them (though some tournaments do 3 out of 5 in finals just to milk the top competition for all it's worth).

I still think 3 stocks, 2 out of 3 is fine. Your parallel to SF4 is a good one, as sets do tend to be about comparably long.

 

[AvariceX]

Whether to play best of 3 or best of 5 is really more about the volatility of the game than how long it takes. The reason Marvel and Divekick play 3 out of 5 is because momentum carries over between "rounds", potentially allowing you to take the entire game off one good play. Smash Bros and Street Fighter reset almost everything between rounds, so 2 out of 3 is fine for them (though some tournaments do 3 out of 5 in finals just to milk the top competition for all it's worth).

I still think 3 stocks, 2 out of 3 is fine. Your parallel to SF4 is a good one, as sets do tend to be about comparably long.

For what it's worth I play(ed) Smash (Melee, Brawl), SF4, and MvC3 competitively (not well, but I travel and enter tournaments) - I entered 7 events at UFGT this year (and beat Justin Wong in mystery game Deadliest Warrior) - so I get to see a lot of what makes the different games and scenes tick. An SF4 tournament can finish in an afternoon and then everyone goes out for beer and hotpot, while a Brawl tournament forces everyone to wake up early to register by 9-10am and still frustrate the venue owners consistently going beyond booked times (remember "money back! money back!" and audio-only grand finals stream?). This game isn't Brawl, but out of every game played competitively out there it's probably most similar and we should learn from its mistakes.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have only encountered a single good argument each, for 2-stock vs. 3-stock.

"I prefer 2-stock games."
and
"I prefer 3-stock games."

All the reasons I've seen for the supposed objective superiority of one or the other are really dubious.

(And now that I've alienated both sides, away I go!)

 

[Terotrous]

For what it's worth I play(ed) Smash (Melee, Brawl), SF4, and MvC3 competitively (not well, but I travel and enter tournaments) - I entered 7 events at UFGT this year (and beat Justin Wong in mystery game Deadliest Warrior)

I totally would have won Mystery Game Tournament this year. Bishi Bashi Special 2 is my game, I played that for years.

An SF4 tournament can finish in an afternoon

Uhh, a tournament with what, 16 participants? Most big SF4 tournaments take a full day (usually spread out across a weekend). Top 32 alone is usually a 3-hour affair.

 

[Terotrous]

I have only encountered a single good argument each, for 2-stock vs. 3-stock.

"I prefer 2-stock games."
and
"I prefer 3-stock games."

All the reasons I've seen for the supposed objective superiority of one or the other are really dubious.

The arguments are pretty clear really.

2 stock is just "it's faster".

3 stock is "it gives more time for match irregularities to even out and Rage is less of a factor".

 

[AvariceX]

I totally would have won Mystery Game Tournament this year. Bishi Bashi Special 2 is my game, I played that for years.



Uhh, a tournament with what, 16 participants? Most big SF4 tournaments take a full day (usually spread out across a weekend). Top 32 alone is usually a 3-hour affair.

I'm talking about your average local 30-50 person tournament (admittedly I mentioned UFGT in the same breath, my mistake) mainly since those were about the attendance numbers my region (and I think most regions) pulled when the games were in their prime. A 40 person SF4 tournament might run from 11am-6pm which is completely reasonable. The same size Brawl tournament would go from 9am to 1am which is ridiculous. Top 32 being a 3-hour affair in SF4 only happens when you have an event where stream revenue is a primary concern and you try to squeeze everyone on one or two setups for the entire bracket.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I have only encountered a single good argument each, for 2-stock vs. 3-stock.

"I prefer 2-stock games."
and
"I prefer 3-stock games."

All the reasons I've seen for the supposed objective superiority of one or the other are really dubious.

(And now that I've alienated both sides, away I go!)

Well yeah. Everyone has their own angle on what "better" is. I'm sure there are people who prefer 7-stock matches, but that position is simply not shared by the majority.

It's good that the debate has boiled down to these two numbers. The 2 stock crowd could survive doing a 3 stock tournament and vice versa. One format will likely win out in the long run, but we may see some fluctuation based on the size of the tournament (and how time-constrained it is).

 

[Terotrous]

A 40 person SF4 tournament might run from 11am-6pm which is completely reasonable. The same size Brawl tournament would go from 9am to 1am which is ridiculous.

There's no way a 40 person Brawl tournament takes 14 hours to run. How many setups is this on? Just one?

 

[Jaxas]

There's no way a 40 person Brawl tournament takes 14 hours to run. How many setups is this on? Just one?

Just gonna throw in that I run Brawl weeklies that are anywhere from 15-25 people, and it takes anywhere from 5-7 hours for the full tournament. We usually have anywhere from 3-5 setups.

Now also note that this is run Swiss format until top 8.

 

[HiNiTe]

I have only encountered a single good argument each, for 2-stock vs. 3-stock.

"I prefer 2-stock games."
and
"I prefer 3-stock games."

All the reasons I've seen for the supposed objective superiority of one or the other are really dubious.

(And now that I've alienated both sides, away I go!)

Then there is no further reason to continue the discussion as the argument will repeat over and over, and TOs will just keep choosing whatever they feel like. A standard for stocks is not impossible, but the large amount of 2-stock supporters and 3-stock supporters are far too great at this point to see. As such, it may be best to see how tournaments play out within both settings, including the forthcoming Apex.

 

[Terotrous]

Just gonna throw in that I run Brawl weeklies that are anywhere from 15-25 people, and it takes anywhere from 5-7 hours for the full tournament. We usually have anywhere from 3-5 setups.

Now also note that this is run Swiss format until top 8.

Well Swiss does make things take longer when you have limited setups.

 

[AvariceX]

I'm speaking from experience. I go to a Brawl tournament, there's 30-50 people there. I register by 10am. A bunch of the players can't be arsed to wake up in the morning and register late (happens in other scenes too). The slackers hold up the pools (which most fighting games don't even bother with, but I do like them if they can be ran efficiently). My pool finishes. Wait for other pools to finish. Wait for a bracket. wait... wait... wait... 2-3 hours have passed and now there's a bracket. People went out for lunch while waiting for all the late pools to finish, people who went to lunch now holding up the bracket. More waiting, eventually time to watch or play top 3. Tournament finishes, it's pitch black outside. Look at phone and it's 12:30am. This happened consistently for years so I stopped bothering with it all.

I agree with you by the way. There's no way a 40 man tournament should take 14 hours to run. My experiences tell me otherwise unfortunately. Obviously there's other underlying problems with those tournament schedules. I think part of it too though was that no one wanted to sit around their pool to watch a potentially 24-minute (plus stage selection) long match before playing their match so they went off to do something else and just wasted everyone's time. 2-stock 5-minutes would at least be more bearable to sit through and perhaps even exciting with the increased volatility, although would it actually solve the problem? Who knows.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm speaking from experience. I go to a Brawl tournament, there's 30-50 people there. I register by 10am. A bunch of the players can't be arsed to wake up in the morning and register late (happens in other scenes too). The slackers hold up the pools (which most fighting games don't even bother with, but I do like them if they can be ran efficiently). My pool finishes. Wait for other pools to finish. Wait for a bracket. wait... wait... wait... 2-3 hours have passed and now there's a bracket. People went out for lunch while waiting for all the late pools to finish, people who went to lunch now holding up the bracket. More waiting, eventually time to watch or play top 3. Tournament finishes, it's pitch black outside. Look at phone and it's 12:30am. This happened consistently for years so I stopped bothering with it all.

I agree with you by the way. There's no way a 40 man tournament should take 14 hours to run. My experiences tell me otherwise unfortunately. Obviously there's other underlying problems with those tournament schedules. I think part of it too though was that no one wanted to sit around their pool to watch a potentially 24-minute (plus stage selection) long match before playing their match so they went off to do something else and just wasted everyone's time. 2-stock 5-minutes would at least be more bearable to sit through and perhaps even exciting with the increased volatility, although would it actually solve the problem? Who knows.

Sounds like the TOs needed to start DQing people who weren't there for their matches, though I guess at locals they're sometimes more lenient.

At any rate, 24-minute sets is not really a thing in Smash 4 (or even really in Brawl, that requires all matches to go to timeout). Looking at Tourneylocator, they tend to be between 8 and 13 minutes in Smash 4, which I don't think is unreasonable. As for stage selection, Nintendo's got your back there, with so few viable stages stage selection is a breeze!

 

[Jaxas]

Well Swiss does make things take longer when you have limited setups.

Sorry, I wasn't clear; that was my point. Even with swiss, which takes forever, it takes no more than around 7 hours.
And that's with stuff like friendlies running because it's a local, too.

 

[Texas Toast]

Having played multiple matches on the 3DS competitively (Not just for Glory, talking ladders and tournies), against some of the better players in the online community and against some complete novices, I can say with full conviction that 2 stocks doesn't fully showcase skill.

Mistakes are common on the 3DS due to it's less-than-ideal controls/responsiveness. An SD in a two stock match, or something similar, completely switches momentum. Bad players can beat good players in this system: Those of you who've played For Glory can probably attest to at least one instance in which the worse player won, or a match was closer than it should've been.


Even though it takes longer to kill now, I still think, AT LEAST for the 3DS version, that 3 stocks is ideal. Whether that's 6 minutes, 7 minutes, or 8, I do not know. I just believe that extra stock makes quite the difference for the better.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

There's some data on that in here, too:

http://smashboards.com/threads/blas...m-tourney-locators-invitation-tourney.368643/

Well. That definitely helps. Assuming both average times per match and stock are common, I'd say a few things.

About the 3DS Version:

First, the 3DS version has SD problems since the controls are unwieldy.
Second, 3DS matches can be run simultaneously since every player has to bring their own setup.

Therefore, a format of 3 Stock, 7 Minutes, Bo3 (Bo5 for Grand Finals) is (In my opinion) the best format available for the 3DS.

About the Wii U version:

First, SD's aren't so common.
Second, it's troublesome and expensive to have many setups for the same tournament.
Third, there are issues with both Schedule time and Streaming time for Wii U tournaments, since they require more things than handhelds, like venues to house the participants and equipment and etc. So things need to run faster.
Fourth, having the same rules of the 3DS version would kill it's tournament scene. No need for that.
Fifth, the Wii U version will be the standard version, so if we want this community to grow, we should at least have some rules similar to For Glory since that is the bn'b of the game.

Therefore, a format of 2 stocks, 5 minutes, Bo3 works perfectly fine for early matches. At top 16 onwards, I recommend changing to 3 Stocks, 7 Minutes, Bo3, to build up hype and extend matches.
The early 2 stock matches will save an average of 1:50 minutes per match, which is vital for large-scale tournaments.

Don't forget that we are dealing with tournament issues here, it's not just about the game and how it feels. It's about the game and making sure tournaments run quickly and smoothly.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm terrified of the idea that For Glory is considered Bread and Butter of the game.