Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[LiteralGrill]

I just wanted to come in here and mention we tested out a new stage selection procedure yesterday. It brought up some interesting thoughts on the rules so I wanted to share my findings on it here. Here's a link to the post on smashboards.

 

[Judo777]

1) My reasoning on my opinions aren't misguided. The problem is that I'm like one man with a Pepsi shirt at a Coke factory.

That said, I didn't care about what stage is good or bad. I care for having a uniform stage to utilize during competitive play so the stage doesn't play a large role in one's success or failure. A stage where the strengths and weaknesses of characters aren't going to be enhanced or diminished because of random stage features or what-not. Yea, this game isn't like traditional fighters, but at the same time, it doesn't mean this community can't learn from that of other fighting game communities. It's still a fighting game in the long run.

2) As far as that quote goes...I don't think I slept during that time...for about 24 hours + up to that point. So that response was obvious garbage, but the point still stands: You don't need platforms or hazards in a stage, so it's entirely logical to create a type of stage that leaves characters to their strengths and weaknesses in and of themselves without enhancing or diminishing them through the use of the stage selection. The point of FD is to give a stage where there's no distractions or field advantage being given. Sure, characters may do worse on FD, but that's because they're simply worse characters in comparison to other characters. Adding a laser or breaking the stage up into pieces or adding a full on construct doesn't make Luigi better against other characters. It just means he isn't effected as much by the stage's interruption in the match, whether it be adding walls, blocking attacks for you, or dropping you into oblivion, which is uncalled for when it comes to character balance, which is a character vs. character affair, not a char vs. char vs. stage affair. For that concept, a stage that doesn't put its 2 cents on the match is needed. A neutral stage. THAT is the point of FD, and the point of the term.

Hopefully that's a better response than that other one. I should really avoid video games when I pull all-nighters. I'ma just apologize for that upfront.

I was contradicting that particular opinion, I was pointing out the stage builder argument wasn't valid. I now understand you said you hadn't slept so no worries.

On topic tho, as has been stated FD IS a very polarizing stage. It favors people who have great ground game, and is stronger for people who have poor air game (see little Mac). The stage IS affecting game play. It is giving people with superior air game no where to go but to eventually land directly on top of the player that never decides to leave the ground.

I'm not sure if you are aware or not but in Brawl FD was THE most commonly banned stage in tournament play (each player can ban 1 stage per match) because if you were ever stuck playing against IC's on that stage you were toast. The only chance you had was to play off the ledge, which later that tactic was banned anyway (LGL designed for MK). And while IC's were a great character you can't say that they were the best character in the game simply because the ***** everything on FD. Because they were considerably worse every other stage in the game. A decent amount worse on the neutrals, and atrociously worse on CP stages (especially the moving stages or transforming stages). Just because you are the best character on one stage, doesn't mean to are the best character overall.

Not to mention from just a stage perspective FD has always favored killing off the top as opposed to the sides and always had arguably the most hazardous ledge (the actual lip under the ledge I mean) of any stages bar pokemon stadium one and maybe Lylat. (to my knowledge both of those stages are gone in smash 4 so if there isn't a similar stages FD has the worst lip).

I don't know how else to describe it. In Brawl, the classic 5 neutrals, I can see people having issues with Yoshis Island and Lylat due to the more prevalent random factors, but if you have an issue with (IMO the classic 3) FD, Battlefield and Smashville....... I'm sorry you are mistaken lol. Those 3 stages are smash. And 2 of them have platforms. I am 90% sure smashville (arguably the best smash stage ever) will be returning in the Wiiu version

 

[Thinkaman]

I am 90% sure smashville (arguably the best smash stage ever) will be returning in the Wiiu version

It is.

Also, I think that Smash 4 FD is better than Brawl FD, due to removing the unpopular lip (cruel to novice players) and the context of the game. (Far fewer/weaker long-range projectiles, no real chaingrabs)

I still prefer Battlefield (hell, I prefer BF to SV) but find myself minding FD a lot less than I did in Brawl. (Or Melee)

 

[DanGR]

Town and City will never be Smashville without K.K. Slider: DJ K.K.!

 

[Nintendrone]

Town and City will never be Smashville without K.K. Slider: DJ K.K.!

I'm 99% sure KK actually is on T&C, just like Smashville. Why didn't they just call it Smashville 2?

 

[camzaman]

I would just like to voice my opinion that banning custom move sets is completely asinine. Custom moves are exactly what this game needs for character variety in the competitive scene. There is absolutely no reason to ban them. The game will be volatile initially. And THAT IS A GOOD THING. It will promote the variety and interest in many characters and add more variety to play style within a character.

 

[T0MMY]

It's unfortunate that just saying something is asinine isn't going to be reason enough when TO's are faced with so many potential problems allowing for Customization on. With too many people simply just complaining and getting angry without taking the time to understand the difficulties it just pushes them to ban Customization altogether. Which is a shame because I like Equipment a lot.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's unfortunate that just saying something is asinine isn't going to be reason enough when TO's are faced with so many potential problems allowing for Customization on. With too many people simply just complaining and getting angry without taking the time to understand the difficulties it just pushes them to ban Customization altogether. Which is a shame because I like Equipment a lot.

I'm pretty unconvinced these reasons are valid. Custom moves drastically improve the balance and variety of the game; any possible downsides from a gameplay perspective of any outlier moves we may not like are ridiculously outweighed by the pros from just how much good the overwhelming majority of moves do. Enforcement of no equipment is pretty easy for a lot of reasons; there's just not a practical way on Wii U to sneak equipment in if your opponent is just watching the screen which I think is a reasonable expectation. Crazy Orders would appear to be an overwhelmingly efficient unlock method for custom moves (better than anything on 3ds), but 3ds transfer is also incredibly efficient as well taking less than a minute with 3ds on some level not requiring any unlocks (powersaves codes exist to instantly have all custom moves on 3ds) and not even needing repetition if anyone ever has ever used the same custom set-up on that console. The tournament time to pick customs is likewise just so tiny; this interface is pretty efficient! I truly don't see one single problem with allowing customs.

I mean, seriously, this game is just so drastically improved by custom moves; it is probably twice as good of a competitive game for including them. They are the single thing that make smash 4 special, and the system works ridiculously well. Choosing to play the gimped version of the game over concerns that do not seem to hold much water would be the biggest mistake we could possibly make. Once the Wii U version is actually out I plan to expand on this greatly and make the case for custom moves in as clear of a way as possible, but we really can't afford to get this wrong. I just can't stress enough how much of a mistake banning customs is, how far in the wrong direction we move for every event that doesn't allow them, how unnecessary early bans are, and just plain how much better of a game this is with custom moves on. The movement not to allow them feels like a movement to play a worse game for no discernible reason, and I can't get behind that or sympathize with it.

 

[camzaman]

My two concerns with competitive Smash WiiU are as follows:

1 - Slow to adopt custom moveset (I think this will happen though)
2 - Refusal to adopt custom designed stages (this could be amazing for even more balance and evolution, just like Starcraft)

 

[T0MMY]

I'm pretty unconvinced these reasons are valid. Custom moves drastically improve the balance and variety of the game

I often hear the opposite why TO's are not using it (afraid of all the glitches like One Inch Punch that come about with all the customs - a popular TO posted in that thread saying this).
Also there's no option to have Custom Moves on and Equipment Off, which would have solved everything, but it's not like the cheating possibility isn't much of the problem as much as having all the Customs unlocked for everyone on all the consoles (and not everyone owns a 3DS and people like my brother have problems with their 3DS save files).

Like I said, there's not enough people addressing how to resolve these problems compared to just merely complaining, so it just comes off like the exact same "vocal minority" that complained about not having Items on.
With just opinions and complaints where does that put the TO? Walking a very conservative line: Fox only, Final Destination, no Items, (and now a new addition to the meme) no Customization.
So, the solution is to help stop the complaining by helping address the issues with solutions (much like you have done, good job btw). I think if TO's have nothing to worry about then it'll work its way into things naturally, but if not then once Customization is gone it probably will have about as much chance coming back as items.

My two concerns with competitive Smash WiiU are as follows:

1 - Slow to adopt custom moveset (I think this will happen though)
2 - Refusal to adopt custom designed stages (this could be amazing for even more balance and evolution, just like Starcraft)

Custom stages? As much as that may be very useful (and fun), how is the community going to agree on custom stages when they can't even agree on the standard stages?
That question was kind of rhetorical, maybe it can be answered, but it also makes a case for how things are handled (see any number of Stage discussion threads).
Say you made an awesome stage and even that pretty much everyone loves it... how do you go about getting it included in tournaments outside your local scene (or even just locally for that matter)?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm in the planning phases of a very detailed rundown of the pro-custom move position that addresses things in great depth. I plan to put it in video format so I need to wait about a week to get it together for a few reasons (may take longer since I'm still kinda a video editing scrub but I'll do my best), but it's one of my early smash wii u priorities. For however bad One Inch Punch is (IMO severely overrated in terms of power), there are so many other cases of them doing some good and I want to show that alongside answers to common concerns. I do agree that we're pretty much screwed if a standard of banning them becoms accepted since bans are so hard to undo; I'll be doing my best to make it as easy as possible for people to see that this is the best road.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I'm in the planning phases of a very detailed rundown of the pro-custom move position that addresses things in great depth. I plan to put it in video format so I need to wait about a week to get it together for a few reasons (may take longer since I'm still kinda a video editing scrub but I'll do my best), but it's one of my early smash wii u priorities. For however bad One Inch Punch is (IMO severely overrated in terms of power), there are so many other cases of them doing some good and I want to show that alongside answers to common concerns. I do agree that we're pretty much screwed if a standard of banning them becoms accepted since bans are so hard to undo; I'll be doing my best to make it as easy as possible for people to see that this is the best road.

There have been several articles and threads about this, if you wanna check them out.

http://clashtournaments.com/custom-movesets-and-the-circle-of-viability/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...es-on-gameplay-and-balance-statistics.366457/

(Thinkaman, I miss your Phoenix Wright avatar)

 

[T0MMY]

I think One Inch Punch was greatly exaggerated, and I am interested to test it out in the new 1.0.4 patch now.
The articles linked really didn't touch on the important issues dealing with Customization options, they are good for a rallying of masses or preaching to a choir type of rhetoric but it's going to be hard reasoning that makes hard decisions on rules.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think One Inch Punch was greatly exaggerated, and I am interested to test it out in the new 1.0.4 patch now.

Unfortunately, One Inch Punch was the sole significant surviving bug in this patch.

The only other 2 I'm awayre of is Palutena infinite Lightweight and Palutena Super Speed storage.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Unfortunately, One Inch Punch was the sole significant surviving bug in this patch.

The only other 2 I'm awayre of is Palutena infinite Lightweight and Palutena Super Speed storage.

The ridiculous Ness/Rosalina gravity pull on Corneria lasers thing still exists

 

[Thinkaman]

The ridiculous Ness/Rosalina gravity pull on Corneria lasers thing still exists

But not in the full game!

Get it, because the Wii U version doesn't have Corneria.

Get it?

3DS, eh, am I right?

 

[popsofctown]

Viridi's voice still answers to neither the Music, Voice, or Sound effect sliders.
Viridi answer's to no one, including 1.04

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

You know, I'm tired of people who make the excuse of, "Not everyone has a 3ds." You don't even have to have a 3ds to make the transfer, just borrow someone's.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You know, I'm tired of people who make the excuse of, "Not everyone has a 3ds." You don't even have to have a 3ds to make the transfer, just borrow someone's.

Indeed, and odds are someone at a Smash tournament will have brought their 3DS for friendlies or streetpass collection or something else.

 

[T0MMY]

And when the odds end up not in your favor, you're screwed?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And when the odds end up not in your favor, you're screwed?

In the short term, possibly, although if I don't have my own 3DS (I do but let's pretend) I'd also be taking into account the risk involved and plan accordingly. No one will (or rather, should) be walking in blind to the risk if they choose to go that route.

In the long term, as in after New Year's Day, I will be rather surprised if the majority of smashers won't have all customs unlocked, which makes the whole thing moot. I unlocked all of them on the 3DS in under a month, with approximately 10 hours/week worth of effort. Crazy Orders looks like it has potential to be more lucrative than farming Classic, so I see very little to worry about in 2015 and beyond.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

And when the odds end up not in your favor, you're screwed?

People will bring 3ds to tourneys if not just for the sake of friendlies and such, they'll be doing it for the sake of custom transfer. Even if at one tourney someone doesn't bring one, that shouldn't invalidate the seven others where people brought them.

 

[Uniit]

I'm pretty neutral about custom moves, but i think that the "i don't own a 3DS" is a valid argument.

Not everyone will take their 3DS on a tournament, and in the part that actually brought it, how many have unlocked all custom moves ? I personally didn't unlock so much. Chance are that you're going to struggle meeting someone that is not playing right know or watching some game, to come to your station with his 3DS, and have the custom move you want.

I have heard that some tournament lack time, and this isn't helping. Once you figure out that the WiiU don't have the custom that you want, you will look for someone that have. Might or not have some luck, you end up with a right 3DS, then you go back, must connect the 3DS with the WiiU (given that maybe there are number of other WiiU, potentially interfering), transfer the custom character, then go back to the select screen, and now you have to find your toon between possibly many other (given that other people does the same).

Aside, Full List Stage Striking isn't used because there is not time for that.

I do realise that there are solutions to all of this, like the TO having a 3DS with all custom unlock, having popular set of custom or by *simply* unlocking everythings on every WiiU.

I'm not for or against custom moves because of that, as I think that diversity is good and custom move having great influence on charater balance.

 

[T0MMY]

Everything should be unlocked for tournament use, but having a 3DS is probably going to make things easier when playing with Customization (although trust is an issue if asking to borrow someone's 3DS).
If there are too many issues for TO's to address this would put Customization in a risk of going the way of Items and be a part of a For Fun type of casual event. So it is important to properly address these issues, sorry if it sounds like I'm calling anyone out, but just saying people shouldn't walk in blind isn't going to solve any problems for the TO's.
And as fun as Equipment and Custom Moves are, I am actually ok with making them part of a For Fun side event, because around here the casual crowd loves Customization and the Competitive crowd does not. So, to each their own.

 

[popsofctown]

One possible paradigm for custom move administration is that for every Wii U that does not have everything unlocked, you assign a 3DS that has everything unlocked to go with it and be part of that station. Everyone can use that 3ds to upload things they need to that particular wii U for play. Depending on how much Crazy Orders pays out that might be a workable model.

 

[Nintendrone]

Just like how top tier characters become more common, popular/effective custom move combos will become the norm, leading to less transfers overall. @ popsofctown has a good idea, since there are way more people with 3DSes than Wii Us, and by extension, more SSB3DS than SSBU. If necessary, the TO could strongly suggest that U setups that are brought have a companion 3DS for transfer, just like how CRTs were strongly recommended.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There was a suggestion elsewhere that TOs waive entry fees for people who bring full setups, including a 3DS for custom transfer if necessary. While a full fee waiver may be a bit much (IDK, I'm not a TO), the general idea of somehow incentivising people to either unlock everything fast or bring a 3DS that does have everything unlocked or something to help the process along of getting customs used in serious play I believe is worth thinking about. Even if it turns out not enough people bring something, it still tells us how many people do/don't have the equipment in question.

DATA!

 

[Mangoh862]

my 2 cents on the rules set is this:

8 mins, 3 stocks, stages are FD/Omega (count as same stage) Battlefield, Arena Ferox, Yoshi's Island, and jungle japes. that gives some diversity in stages as well as balanced stages without too many hazards. of course custom is allowed, and miis as well. no items (of course) and stage choice is RPS. *phew* hows that? feel free to point out things that you'd change.

 

[Mangoh862]

my 2 cents on the rules set is this:

8 mins, 3 stocks, stages are FD/Omega (count as same stage) Battlefield, Arena Ferox, Yoshi's Island, and jungle japes. that gives some diversity in stages as well as balanced stages without too many hazards. of course custom is allowed, and miis as well. no items (of course) and stage choice is RPS. *phew* hows that? feel free to point out things that you'd change.

also as far as customs and mii's go just bring a darn 3ds people! and if you dont have one, well... um.. awkward :/

 

[Deathcarter]

my 2 cents on the rules set is this:

8 mins, 3 stocks, stages are FD/Omega (count as same stage) Battlefield, Arena Ferox, Yoshi's Island, and jungle japes. that gives some diversity in stages as well as balanced stages without too many hazards. of course custom is allowed, and miis as well. no items (of course) and stage choice is RPS. *phew* hows that? feel free to point out things that you'd change.

Jungle Japes is an absolutely horrible stage for competitive play. Seriously, being slightly underneath the stage is enough to send you flying into the left blast line.

 

[popsofctown]

I was thinking some today and I changed my mind about what mii rules makes the most sense to me.

I think only min/min, default/default, and max height min weight miis should be legal. Min min for gunners and fighters, default default to accomodate newbies that want that, and max height min weight for swordsman's sake.

All three should be verified based on knockback values of a move with a known knockback amount. The min/min should be impossible to pass with a tweak if that move is chosen perfectly. The other two can adjust their weight in two directions with tweaks, but it the move is chosen well you can make it so that max height-min weight would be forced to sacrifice height to get an overall parameter tweak, which is very undesirable for swordsman or even a fighter/gunner that wants range for whyever.

Default/default would have the most room to increase height and decrease weight and still pass the knockback check, but default/default is far from optimal for all 3 miis and will only be used by newbies who won't be gaming the system. If they were trying to maximize their chances to win they wouldn't be playing any combination of weight and height that is similar to default mii.

For all intents and purposes, a tall mii or default mii who managed to pass the knockback check without actually using the stated parameters should be considered legal, since this system doesn't check mii maker and in both cases they've made a huge power level sacrifice, either by playing defaultish range mii at all or by sacrificing some height.


In game knockback testing should take about as long as when people use Game and Watch for random number generation, so it shouldn't be a big deal. If a GW move that works well is found you could even do both in the same game (i get first judgement roll, you get the second judgement roll, now hit me with up smash and lets see if max knockback for game is 61 etc).


what do people think?

 

[cardboardowl]

I was thinking some today and I changed my mind about what mii rules makes the most sense to me.

I think only min/min, default/default, and max height min weight miis should be legal. Min min for gunners and fighters, default default to accomodate newbies that want that, and max height min weight for swordsman's sake.

All three should be verified based on knockback values of a move with a known knockback amount. The min/min should be impossible to pass with a tweak if that move is chosen perfectly. The other two can adjust their weight in two directions with tweaks, but it the move is chosen well you can make it so that max height-min weight would be forced to sacrifice height to get an overall parameter tweak, which is very undesirable for swordsman or even a fighter/gunner that wants range for whyever.

Default/default would have the most room to increase height and decrease weight and still pass the knockback check, but default/default is far from optimal for all 3 miis and will only be used by newbies who won't be gaming the system. If they were trying to maximize their chances to win they wouldn't be playing any combination of weight and height that is similar to default mii.

For all intents and purposes, a tall mii or default mii who managed to pass the knockback check without actually using the stated parameters should be considered legal, since this system doesn't check mii maker and in both cases they've made a huge power level sacrifice, either by playing defaultish range mii at all or by sacrificing some height.


In game knockback testing should take about as long as when people use Game and Watch for random number generation, so it shouldn't be a big deal. If a GW move that works well is found you could even do both in the same game (i get first judgement roll, you get the second judgement roll, now hit me with up smash and lets see if max knockback for game is 61 etc).


what do people think?

Isn't the mii weight difference like, really really small? If someone is using a mii they should just have to tell you if its it's specs and you should know the range it can be killed at. If it's only like a 5% difference i don't think its that big a deal.

 

[Reaperfan]

Isn't the mii weight difference like, really really small? If someone is using a mii they should just have to tell you if its it's specs and you should know the range it can be killed at. If it's only like a 5% difference i don't think its that big a deal.

The weight difference is not negligible. And there are times where even a 3%-5% difference can mean survival or KO. It would create situations where even if a Mii player told their opponent "my guy is tallish and kinda skinny" then the opponent would have no way to know how to optimally play against them since, outside of absolute minimums, maximums, and the default average, each little tick on the height/weight slider could create that 3%-5% gap without your opponent being able to know for sure.

Just like with custom moves, we need to establish a standard to create a framework of knowledge initially, then as we start to understand that we build upon that foundation and later on work outwards into the more volatile landscape of customizations.

 

[XalchemistX]

The Smooth Lander badge auto L-cancels. The stats is different for each one, so a +3 version of the badge is best. The decreased stats can be neutralized with another item.

This could be a new approach for more competitive matches

 

[wannabe33]

On the topic of Mii Fighters, I think it'd be a profound shame to leave three original movesets by the wayside. That said, even small changes in knockback, weight, etc. can make a huge difference in high-level tourney play. Most sensible option to me is to leave all Mii Fighters at neutral stats.

On the topic of custom moves, you don't need to convince many that custom moves are a positive. The issue is unlocking them. It's a time-consuming process to say the least. I think that default customs (Palutena and Mii Fighters) are a given for legality, but unless we can figure out a reliable way to grind out customs quickly, I'd be surprised if many tournaments featured customs over the next year or so. APEX, for example, will almost certainly be default movesets.

 

[Uniit]

My opinion on Mii is that we should only allow one type, like default or min min / max min. Well, i don't know that much on mii, but i imagine that there is no fast way to check on miis. So one solution is that TO would create a stardard mii, who's gonna be used for all three miis (well, maybe 2 standards mii like @popsofctown suggested), then create the miis with optimal moveset.

So one can choose to use the optimal mii or create another with the standard mii as base and select other moves. Don't know if i'm really clear on this one.

If there no simple and fast method to do that, i'll certainly be against mii in competitive plays.

 

[Reaperfan]

The Smooth Lander badge auto L-cancels. The stats is different for each one, so a +3 version of the badge is best. The decreased stats can be neutralized with another item.

This could be a new approach for more competitive matches

Faster matches. Not necessarily more competitive. Also too much grinding for exact numbers on negating boosts. You'd likely have to grind out multiple different badges of an exact value to compensate for the fact that not all character can use all equipment types. Wouldn't really be feasible on a large scale such as a tournament right now, as this won't be possible across the whole cast on a large majority of systems except for a few lucky ones to have been blessed by RNGesus (having grinded out all the custom moves, I've not even found one badge with the smooth landing effect, let alone exact numbers to negate it). Down the line after everyone's done grinding out custom moves this could make for fun side events but it's a looooong way off from being standardized.

 

[T0MMY]

I think only min/min, default/default, and max height min weight miis should be legal. Min min for gunners and fighters, default default to accomodate newbies that want that, and max height min weight for swordsman's sake.

I think your proposal is completely fantastic, fun, and brilliant!
Likewise since I agree to your proposal to limit my character selection I now get to limit yours.
Agreed?
If so, I can now limit you in regards to your character... maybe not allow you to play top tiers, or your strongest character, or maybe I can limit your character in other imaginable ways. The possibilities seem endless.
Do you agree to these terms?

what do people think?

I think your knockback test idea is convoluted, time consuming, and completely unethical for a competitive community to accept.
But limiting your opponents' options and making up out-of-game rules is perfectly fine for the Casual Scene. But please remember you are in the thread titled "Competitive Smash Ruleset Dsicussion".
Competitive.
Not Casual.
Can we get a "Casual Ruleset Discussion" for all the out-of-game rule proposals?

On the topic of Mii Fighters, I think it'd be a profound shame to leave three original movesets by the wayside. That said, even small changes in knockback, weight, etc. can make a huge difference in high-level tourney play. Most sensible option to me is to leave all Mii Fighters at neutral stats.

As a decade-long competitive player who has competed in high level tournaments across the nation I have to disagree with your opinion: Good players (heck, even mediocre players) should and can adapt to a large degree of height/weight changes. It doesn't matter if it is Pichu or Giga Bowser, players adapt surprisingly quickly.
Additionally the proposal about "neutral stats" is ambiguous as you do not state what exactly "stats" are. So no comment there.

My opinion on Mii is that we should only allow one type, like default or min min / max min.

I would ask who this "we" is you refer to. You and your little sister?
You and your sister can limit your character selection options, but in the Competitive Arena that would be anathema (not acceptable at all).

Well, i don't know that much on mii, but i imagine that there is no fast way to check on miis. So one solution is that TO would create a stardard mii, who's gonna be used for all three miis (well, maybe 2 standards mii like @popsofctown suggested), then create the miis with optimal moveset.

Good luck trying to get TO's to fit more into their schedule in addition to all the other organizing they have to do AND run the tournament.
I will offer them my solution: Just let the players play the game like they've come and paid to do.

I have a feeling my option will be more favored.

If there no simple and fast method to do that, i'll certainly be against mii in competitive plays.

Do you even host tournaments? If so I am not going to attend them since I am a competitive player.

 

[wannabe33]

Poor analogy. Bowser and Pichu both have stable statistics -- if a top level player is going up against either, they know in advance which moves will deal what level of knockback, what moves combo into other moves, how to set up DI traps, can make reliable predictions, etc. etc.

Mii Fighters with variable statistics throw a wrench into this arrangement. Now, a player going up against a Mii Fighter has to know a whole range of variables. Maybe some combos work with certain weights and not others, for example. I'd personally consider this unreasonable.

 

[Uniit]

I think your proposal is completely fantastic, fun, and brilliant!
Likewise since I agree to your proposal to limit my character selection I now get to limit yours.
Agreed?
If so, I can now limit you in regards to your character... maybe not allow you to play top tiers, or your strongest character, or maybe I can limit your character in other imaginable ways. The possibilities seem endless.
Do you agree to these terms?


I think your knockback test idea is convoluted, time consuming, and completely unethical for a competitive community to accept.
But limiting your opponents' options and making up out-of-game rules is perfectly fine for the Casual Scene. But please remember you are in the thread titled "Competitive Smash Ruleset Dsicussion".
Competitive.
Not Casual.
Can we get a "Casual Ruleset Discussion" for all the out-of-game rule proposals?


As a decade-long competitive player who has competed in high level tournaments across the nation I have to disagree with your opinion: Good players (heck, even mediocre players) should and can adapt to a large degree of height/weight changes. It doesn't matter if it is Pichu or Giga Bowser, players adapt surprisingly quickly.
Additionally the proposal about "neutral stats" is ambiguous as you do not state what exactly "stats" are. So no comment there.


I would ask who this "we" is you refer to. You and your little sister?
You and your sister can limit your character selection options, but in the Competitive Arena that would be anathema (not acceptable at all).


Good luck trying to get TO's to fit more into their schedule in addition to all the other organizing they have to do AND run the tournament.
I will offer them my solution: Just let the players play the game like they've come and paid to do.

I have a feeling my option will be more favored.


Do you even host tournaments? If so I am not going to attend them since I am a competitive player.

So, based on your saying, like "limiting your opponents' options", we should allow equipement and items... no ? At least equipement, so nobody can know how much % they done in a certain hit or at what % a move can kill. Pretty much like letting anyone playing their miis, as stated before ? But, what can i say to THE competitive player here ?

Hey, i can to be ironical to make fun of someone too ! No seriously, dude you don't need to trash talk to make a point, as it often do quite the opposite.

Back on the subject, you made a point saying that TO don't have time for that, which is true. So, between your solution and banning Miis altogether, i can say what option will be chosen, but you may be disappointed.

I thought that those forum were made to discuss over things, to express your point of view and seeing what other people think. I may be against Miis, but if they are part of the standard ruleset, i'm going to fight with and against them. You might disagree with my opinion, but I don't see your point of being disrespectful here.

On a side note, if this is your usual self, be don't come to any event i may be hosting, thanks :D.

EDIT : As you said :

And as fun as Equipment and Custom Moves are, I am actually ok with making them part of a For Fun side event

Aren't you limiting my option here ?