Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Thinkaman]

For Glory is at least "competitive flavor" in the same way "chocolate flavor" is sort of like actual chocolate but isn't nearly as good. But yes.

This is a great way to put it.

 

[Judo777]

It's not subjective. If you used the Brawl stage builder, what's the one thing that had to be there before you can make a stage?

4 individual blocks at the spawn points? All the other blocks are fluff? Because 4 unattached platforms are as basic as it gets. But a terrible stage.

Most stages have platforms AND solid ground so FD is actually pretty abnormal.

 

[T0MMY]

Dude, you don't NEED to check each individual person.

Nowhere did I say you "NEED" to do such a thing.
I simply stated the misuses of "enforceable" when it should have been "identifiable" and pointed out that "easy" is subjective.

You don't need to get someone else involved at all. It's really, really simple. It's like someone choosing a banned stage. You don't need the TO to come over, the other player can simply look at it and say "no, this stage is banned. You can't pick it. Read the rules, man."

Strange, because people have tried pulling the banned stage trick on me as well. I don't want them pulling some kind of trick like that on me with equipment. Thanks for the forewarning.

If the person doesn't say anything about a rule being broken and they play a match anyway, it's on them and they have no one to blame but themselves.The only time the TO needs to be involved AT ALL is if the person tries to continue breaking the rules in spite of being told.

If only it worked that way. Maybe I've just TO'd and competed way too many years now and seen it all, but I wouldn't put it past some players to try to say their opponent used Equipment and they either didn't notice because of load screens or some kind of trickery on their opponent's part and demand a DQ or a rematch.
My simple solution: "Customization: ON" (that's it; no additional rulings regarding equipment needed here, GG's.)
In a more strictly competitive event: "Customization:OFF"

Problem solved.

@Doval

There's simply no way to find out if changing the damage ratio leads to a better meta in any reasonable amount of time.

Not with that mindset?

Classic, All-Star, Training, and Stadium don't let you change the damage ratio, and in practice very few people change the damage ratio for Smash mode either.

In all due respect, we are posting in the "Competitive" discussion here, which focuses on Smash mode. So, "very few people" is just an appeal to populace, which is fallacy. Very few people were playing without Items on, but that didn't matter when the groundwork for competitive rules were being laid.

So you're throwing out the combos they've learned, possibly the way they approach edgeguarding as well since moves that used to be too weak to be practical now knock people away further.

Are you arguing for a lower Damage Ratio?

Like I stated before, I am not supporting or opposing any change in Damage Ratio, it's just that your reasoning is faulty and doesn't change my stance on the matter.

 

[Conda]

For those missing the stream, NAKAT is currently dealing with Mii Brawler's broken custom Up B that kills at 40%. So yeah. We miiiiiiiight need to likely revise the legality of Miis, or at least some of their customs.

The player using the Brawler (dapuffster) is also changing between different Miis between fights, with different weight/height, making things very difficult for any player going against them as their attack speed, range, movement, etc are very different. Not sure if we should revise that, or enforce 1 mii per mii fighter type to prevent players from switching between heights and such between matches. And they do change a lot, especially regarding movement speed, jump height/mobility, attack range, and attack speed.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I may be all for customs, but the Miis have always been on my sketchy list because of just how much is involved with them, however trivial that may be. (And that Up-B has got to go for being able to kill that easily at such a low %).

And man, Nakat was schooling him as Ness, but that Up-B is ridiculous.

If anything, I think sticking to the default body types is the best way to go for simplifying.

 

[Conda]

I may be all for customs, but the Miis have always been on my sketchy list because of just how much is involved with them, however trivial that may be. (And that Up-B has got to go for being able to kill that easily at such a low %).

And man, Nakat was schooling him as Ness, but that Up-B is ridiculous.

If anything, I think sticking to the default body types is the best way to go for simplifying.

I'm starting to think that maybe the miis won't ever see balance changes -- perhaps they weren't designed or intended to be competitively balanced to begin with.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm starting to think that maybe the miis won't ever see balance changes -- perhaps they weren't designed or intended to be competitively balanced to begin with.

The Miis are a mode all to themselves really, and I think Sakurai intended that design. They pretty much can be their own fighting roster because of how many variables are involved. They should probably get their own side event.

 

[Jaxas]

Is the UpB technique in question the One-inch Punch (from Piston Punch or whatever it's called)?
I've heard you can get out of that by vectoring down (and in so you get hit by the rest of the move?); is that not the case? I haven't tested it myself

 

[Conda]

Is the UpB technique in question the One-inch Punch (from Piston Punch or whatever it's called)?
I've heard you can get out of that by vectoring down (and in so you get hit by the rest of the move?); is that not the case? I haven't tested it myself

I'm sure Dabuz and NAKAT would be as aware as anyone, yet it's KOd them a fair amount of times already at very low %s. This is not the throw-UpB combo either, just Up B in general use. Out of shield, after some aerials, from below, etc. The first hit is literally overlooked by design and has set knockback and thus kills (something like this - I don't know enough about the move, but it's obviously not working as intended at low percents).

NAKAT lost his first 2 games to it but came back with a 3 win lead, but he had to switch to Fox.

Dabuz's Rosalina is going against puffster's brawler now.
This is the clash tournaments stream we're speaking about btw. I'll end the real-time talk about it now

Comments like this: "As much as I like this game, it's really hard to take it seriously as a competitive game with stuff like that."
Is worrisome. People are seeing Brawler get 50% kills with set knockback design oversights and I have to say, we may have to do something. This isn't impressive to spectators.




Not to mention it's Rosalina vs Brawler, so it's kind of a double-dip in "Really? this is competitive smash? This is boring and gimmicky..." territory for a lot of spectators.

It's just a shame that rosa so good, as she's one of the most boring characters for spectators who want to watch a pro-level fighting game. Imo hurts smash's spectator value a bit.


edit: later on in the tournament, the Rosalina hate is strong. A lot of people, including Zero, are taking part in some pretty heated anger chat over how broken Rosalina is design-wise.

 

[Johnknight1]

The more I see posts and topics like this, the more I doubt anyone talking competitive ruleset and stage lists even plays Smash competitively at all, or has any vague concept as to how the rules should be.

For those missing the stream, NAKAT is currently dealing with Mii Brawler's broken custom Up B that kills at 40%. So yeah. We miiiiiiiight need to likely revise the legality of Miis, or at least some of their customs.

In that case we got to ban Captain Falcon because his standard side B can KO Fox at I think 25% when he's over 150%.

The rage mechanic does crazy things.

Let's not pretend it only does them for the Mii Fighters.

 

[Conda]

The more I see posts and topics like this, the more I doubt anyone talking competitive ruleset and stage lists even plays Smash competitively at all, or has any vague concept as to how the rules should be.

In that case we got to ban Captain Falcon because his standard side B can KO Fox at I think 25% when he's over 150%.

The rage mechanic does crazy things.

Let's not pretend it only does them for the Mii Fighters.

This is without rage. Fixed knockback is fixed knockback. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/ It doesn't even need the combo setup, you can land it via a chain perfectly fine as we've seen happen.

 

[Johnknight1]

This is without rage. Fixed knockback is fixed knockback. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/ It doesn't even need the combo setup, you can land it via a chain perfectly fine as we've seen happen.

Wow. That's... crazy.

However, you/the OP of said thread should have started the introduced to this video with the tagline "from the people who made and balanced Meta Knight in Brawl".

But seriously, this needs patching, because that's just bad on all levels. But hey, at least it's only on a few characters (like the ZSS infinite on Robin), and various things you can do to Wario.

Then again, it's Smash 3DS, and we all know it's just a glorified demo in the same way Ground Zeroes was a MGS V demo.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, sure, the Mii Fighter up-b exploit is dumb and should be patched. The game is better without it.

But Puffster only got 2 low percents kills on NAKAT. The first wasn't even the exploit, it was just a throw combo at 35% on the top platform of battlefield.

A combo that kills at a low % from the top platform at Battlefield? If it were any other character but a dumb Mii, we'd be talking about how great that character is. If it were Melee, we'd be yelling about the crazy combo hype.

The only actual exploit kill out of d-throw was the grab on the Yoshi's platform, which is obvious since high platforms are the only place it works on characters besides Jigglypuff in the first place. (We saw first-hand that it didn't kill Ness from a middle Battlefield platform.) Once NAKAT understood the cheese, he proceeded to win.

Sure, it's stupid and needs patching, but it's clearly not game-breaking. Brawler isn't the best character in the game.



As for Rosalina, I agree that she is overpowered. Apparently the devs do too! Problem solved?

 

[Conda]

I mean, sure, the Mii Fighter up-b exploit is dumb and should be patched. The game is better without it.

But Puffster only got 2 low percents kills on NAKAT. The first wasn't even the exploit, it was just a throw combo at 35% on the top platform of battlefield.

A combo that kills at a low % from the top platform at Battlefield? If it were any other character but a dumb Mii, we'd be talking about how great that character is. If it were Melee, we'd be yelling about the crazy combo hype.

The only actual exploit kill out of d-throw was the grab on the Yoshi's platform, which is obvious since high platforms are the only place it works on characters besides Jigglypuff in the first place. (We saw first-hand that it didn't kill Ness from a middle Battlefield platform.) Once NAKAT understood the cheese, he proceeded to win.

Sure, it's stupid and needs patching, but it's clearly not game-breaking. Brawler isn't the best character in the game.



As for Rosalina, I agree that she is overpowered. Apparently the devs do too! Problem solved?

I agree, I don't have problems with the 40% top platform kills, a lot of characters can do things kind of like that (though Brawl'ers is still good, but good for him!).

It's just the set knockback KO that just makes the commentators and viewers go "...really? We can't even be excited about that kill because it broke the game's rules and made no sense. :/"

 

[Thinkaman]

I agree, I don't have problems with the 40% top platform kills, a lot of characters can do things kind of like that (though Brawl'ers is still good, but good for him!).

It's just the set knockback KO that just makes the commentators and viewers go "...really? We can't even be excited about that kill because it broke the game's rules and made no sense. :/"

Yeah, for sure. It's just really puzzling/frustrating to see the logic of:

"Mii Fighter has a janky cheese move that needs to be patched" -> "We should ban all custom moves!"

 

[Conda]

Yeah, for sure. It's just really puzzling/frustrating to see the logic of:

"Mii Fighter has a janky cheese move that needs to be patched" -> "We should ban all custom moves!"

Ah I definitely don't want to ban custom moves, they're a barrel of fun and make some of the characters I play actually decent. I'm just saying that this move is clearly glitched, so we can logically ban it without it being a big deal if we adapt common sense into our rules until it's patched out. I mean, Brawler should still do fine without it as he has other cool stuff going on.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ah I definitely don't want to ban custom moves, they're a barrel of fun and make some of the characters I play actually decent. I'm just saying that this move is clearly glitched, so we can logically ban it without it being a big deal if we adapt common sense into our rules until it's patched out. I mean, Brawler should still do fine without it as he has other cool stuff going on.

Yeah, we're all on the same page here. This is my favorite xkcd:

"How It Works"

"Wow, this move is dumb."

"Wow, custom moves are dumb."

 

[LiteralGrill]

I admit, the idea of a rule to limit size change on miis is something we should really consider. Default sized mii would keep that incredibly simple. I can see the concept of abusing size changes constantly could be a real issue. I really do think we don't want to outright ban miis either. If we need to ban one custom move until it's fixed that isn't too bad.

 

[chipndip]

4 individual blocks at the spawn points? All the other blocks are fluff? Because 4 unattached platforms are as basic as it gets. But a terrible stage.

Most stages have platforms AND solid ground so FD is actually pretty abnormal.

Tell that to Sakurai, the guy using For Glory stats for our incoming balance update. I'm really feeling it now

 

[LiteralGrill]

Tell that to Sakurai, the guy using For Glory stats for our incoming balance update. I'm really feeling it now

Actually I think Sakurai is going to be smart on this one. He is looking at the data and actually taking good things from it. We can hope it's going well.

 

[Judo777]

Tell that to Sakurai, the guy using For Glory stats for our incoming balance update. I'm really feeling it now

He already knows that, because everything I stated is objectively true. With the exception of platform stages being terrible (although thats almost objectively true).

 

[chipndip]

Actually I think Sakurai is going to be smart on this one. He is looking at the data and actually taking good things from it. We can hope it's going well.

The data...from what? Only online play leaves data to track. They aren't really going to say "Well, this char does great on Yoshi's Island, so instead of nerfing x, we'll leave that alone". Way too many variables to consider while balancing the roster. Now the changes might translate well to other stages, but I'm putting money on them largely pulling from For Glory play for their balancing changes. They may be good changes, but still. Other fixes may include viral glitches like Yoshi or Zamus's infinite.

He already knows that, because everything I stated is objectively true. With the exception of platform stages being terrible (although thats almost objectively true).

Too bad I said I was stating SUBJECTIVE opinions BASED on OBJECTIVE observations. So congratz on dem reading skillz you uzed when ya mocked meh.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, yeah, that Brawler UpB thing is clearly a bug / unintended hitbox interaction. If they don't fix it that one custom move will have to be banned. I don't want to see Brawler thrown out because of this, he's actually a really cool character.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The more I see posts and topics like this, the more I doubt anyone talking competitive ruleset and stage lists even plays Smash competitively at all, or has any vague concept as to how the rules should be.

In that case we got to ban Captain Falcon because his standard side B can KO Fox at I think 25% when he's over 150%.

The rage mechanic does crazy things.

Let's not pretend it only does them for the Mii Fighters.

I take a little solace in the fact that Reddit is not representative of the Smash community. But the one guy complaining about ledge camping on Norfair despite the new ledge mechanics making that basically impossible is bleh.

 

[T0MMY]

In regards to Mii Brawler:

Criteria of a Ban
A ban must be enforceable, identifiable, and warranted.

Enforceable?
"If you can’t reliably detect something, you certainly can’t enforce penalties on it."
Can you tell when Mii Brawler is using the One Inch Punch technique rather than just a usual U-Spec? Well, MAYBE. But not definitely. It could be argued that he got that KO at 60% due to using this tech, but when his opponent is at higher percentages or closer to the distance to the top blastzone it becomes a gray area and most of the time would just become heated arguments instead of clearly being enforceable.
No.

Identifiable?
As stated above, the technique is not entirely enforceable because it cannot be identified. The problem actually may be resolved to b an the entire move altogether because that move (rather than the One Inch Punch tech) is identifiable. But is the move itself ban worthy? That is, is it warranted? Well, that is the next question.

Warranted?
In the Competitive World we understand: "The great lesson of competitive games is that hardly anything warrants a ban."
In Competitive Smash bugs, oversights, glitches, etc. are exploited to their fullest and most of the time we don't even think of them as bugs but refer to them as "advanced tactics".
How to know if it is warranted?:

"The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way."​

The limit we impose in competition is when the glitch in question actually stops us from being able to play the game at all (e.g. a "freeze glitch") at which point we have the literal usage of the word "broken" (scrubs use this colloquially to suggest something be banned because they themselves are having a difficult time with the tactic and want to be rewarded with a win rather than rewarded for playing well).

Does the One Inch Punch warrant a ban because it "breaks" the game or is it just "over powered"? Let's look at the actual complaint in question: It KO's at low percents.
KO'ing at too low of percents, or KO'ing too easily is essentially saying it is "over powered" in the competitive game world. This is a far cry from a freeze glitch or some kind of tactic that locks up the game, resets it, or otherwise breaks the game.

Verdict:
No, to call for a ban on this technique is proclaiming being a scrub, that is one who is NOT part of the competitive scene.
Let the designers patch the game or not, that's not YOUR job to do. If they don't patch it, deal with it: Either find a way to counter it like a pro or stay out of the Competitive Arena and play casually somewhere else, this isn't your field.

Other Stuff
The other arguments about the Mii being banned due to being able to switch to a different Mii is more foolish than calling for a ban because of a move being "too good". Good players will be able to adapt to the (almost insignificant) changes easier than if their opponent switched to an entirely different character altogether (might as well ban character choice at that point of reasoning).

TL;DR: Unless you are the game developer, stay far away from saying what the game should and should not allow in the Competitive Arena. Let the Pros play the game to it's fullest potential.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

In regards to Mii Brawler:

Criteria of a Ban
A ban must be enforceable, identifiable, and warranted.

Enforceable?
"If you can’t reliably detect something, you certainly can’t enforce penalties on it."
Can you tell when Mii Brawler is using the One Inch Punch technique rather than just a usual U-Spec? Well, MAYBE. But not definitely. It could be argued that he got that KO at 60% due to using this tech, but when his opponent is at higher percentages or closer to the distance to the top blastzone it becomes a gray area and most of the time would just become heated arguments instead of clearly being enforceable.
No.

Identifiable?
As stated above, the technique is not entirely enforceable because it cannot be identified. The problem actually may be resolved to b an the entire move altogether because that move (rather than the One Inch Punch tech) is identifiable. But is the move itself ban worthy? That is, is it warranted? Well, that is the next question.

Warranted?
In the Competitive World we understand: "The great lesson of competitive games is that hardly anything warrants a ban."
In Competitive Smash bugs, oversights, glitches, etc. are exploited to their fullest and most of the time we don't even think of them as bugs but refer to them as "advanced tactics".
How to know if it is warranted?:

"The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way."​

The limit we impose in competition is when the glitch in question actually stops us from being able to play the game at all (e.g. a "freeze glitch") at which point we have the literal usage of the word "broken" (scrubs use this colloquially to suggest something be banned because they themselves are having a difficult time with the tactic and want to be rewarded with a win rather than rewarded for playing well).

Does the One Inch Punch warrant a ban because it "breaks" the game or is it just "over powered"? Let's look at the actual complaint in question: It KO's at low percents.
KO'ing at too low of percents, or KO'ing too easily is essentially saying it is "over powered" in the competitive game world. This is a far cry from a freeze glitch or some kind of tactic that locks up the game, resets it, or otherwise breaks the game.

Verdict:
No, to call for a ban on this technique is proclaiming being a scrub, that is one who is NOT part of the competitive scene.
Let the designers patch the game or not, that's not YOUR job to do. If they don't patch it, deal with it: Either find a way to counter it like a pro or stay out of the Competitive Arena and play casually somewhere else, this isn't your field.

Other Stuff
The other arguments about the Mii being banned due to being able to switch to a different Mii is more foolish than calling for a ban because of a move being "too good". Good players will be able to adapt to the (almost insignificant) changes easier than if their opponent switched to an entirely different character altogether (might as well ban character choice at that point of reasoning).

TL;DR: Unless you are the game developer, stay far away from saying what the game should and should not allow in the Competitive Arena. Let the Pros play the game to it's fullest potential.

Nice application of Sirlin's article. In terms of the "enforceable" clause, I've implemented a rule where during the counterpick, the players must also announce what moveset they want to change to. This way it won't result in players using 3 different versions of the Mii Brawler without the opponent noticing.

 

[T0MMY]

Nice application of Sirlin's article. In terms of the "enforceable" clause, I've implemented a rule where during the counterpick, the players must also announce what moveset they want to change to. This way it won't result in players using 3 different versions of the Mii Brawler without the opponent noticing.

Why do you do that?
That kind of takes away one of the strategic aspects of using the Mii.

 

[Conda]

In regards to Mii Brawler:

Criteria of a Ban
A ban must be enforceable, identifiable, and warranted.

Enforceable?
"If you can’t reliably detect something, you certainly can’t enforce penalties on it."
Can you tell when Mii Brawler is using the One Inch Punch technique rather than just a usual U-Spec? Well, MAYBE. But not definitely. It could be argued that he got that KO at 60% due to using this tech, but when his opponent is at higher percentages or closer to the distance to the top blastzone it becomes a gray area and most of the time would just become heated arguments instead of clearly being enforceable.
No.

Identifiable?
As stated above, the technique is not entirely enforceable because it cannot be identified. The problem actually may be resolved to b an the entire move altogether because that move (rather than the One Inch Punch tech) is identifiable. But is the move itself ban worthy? That is, is it warranted? Well, that is the next question.

Warranted?
In the Competitive World we understand: "The great lesson of competitive games is that hardly anything warrants a ban."
In Competitive Smash bugs, oversights, glitches, etc. are exploited to their fullest and most of the time we don't even think of them as bugs but refer to them as "advanced tactics".
How to know if it is warranted?:

"The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way."​

The limit we impose in competition is when the glitch in question actually stops us from being able to play the game at all (e.g. a "freeze glitch") at which point we have the literal usage of the word "broken" (scrubs use this colloquially to suggest something be banned because they themselves are having a difficult time with the tactic and want to be rewarded with a win rather than rewarded for playing well).

Does the One Inch Punch warrant a ban because it "breaks" the game or is it just "over powered"? Let's look at the actual complaint in question: It KO's at low percents.
KO'ing at too low of percents, or KO'ing too easily is essentially saying it is "over powered" in the competitive game world. This is a far cry from a freeze glitch or some kind of tactic that locks up the game, resets it, or otherwise breaks the game.

Verdict:
No, to call for a ban on this technique is proclaiming being a scrub, that is one who is NOT part of the competitive scene.
Let the designers patch the game or not, that's not YOUR job to do. If they don't patch it, deal with it: Either find a way to counter it like a pro or stay out of the Competitive Arena and play casually somewhere else, this isn't your field.

Other Stuff
The other arguments about the Mii being banned due to being able to switch to a different Mii is more foolish than calling for a ban because of a move being "too good". Good players will be able to adapt to the (almost insignificant) changes easier than if their opponent switched to an entirely different character altogether (might as well ban character choice at that point of reasoning).

TL;DR: Unless you are the game developer, stay far away from saying what the game should and should not allow in the Competitive Arena. Let the Pros play the game to it's fullest potential.

You're missing the point that the move is bugged and banning it is easily enforceable. He is going to change the meta with this one glitch, and his meta will develop around it. And once it is patched, things will crumble around it. Banning it until it is patched is logical and easy and causes no problems thanks to it being just a custom move, not the entire character.

You can apply theory all you want, but this is a common sense and easy ban to do temporarily. Allowing it turns your tournament into one decided by a glitch, and nobody was enjoying it last night. This isn't just because it's a glitch, but one that leads to easy any% fixed KOs. If it was a normal then it'd be trickier and we would have to live with it or ban the whole character, but we are lucky it's just a custom move.

I mean, what's the point in rule set discussion if at the end of the day we aren't going to talk about trickier new elements like mii weight, custom moves, and such? If your view is "everything allowed, nothing banned" then surely this thread should not discuss stage bans or item bans, etc.

Tournaments will be smart for banning this move and encouraging normal play to commence without it. The same way they are smart for banning the Flat Zone stages. Competitive smash relies upon smart easy to enforce bans, it wouldn't exist without them.

There is no reason not to ban a glitchy broken meta changing custom, other than the ideology that we should not ban anything. But we have a history of banning things for logical reasons, such as items and certain stages. Banning is not a no-no when it's an obvious and easy to implement case, so your position already has holes.

 

[Terotrous]

Clearly what you would do is ban that particular UpB custom. He still has 2 others.

 

[T0MMY]

Clearly what you would do is ban that particular UpB custom. He still has 2 others.

@ Terotrous : Clearly you didn't see that a ban has not been proven as warranted.

You're missing the point that the move is bugged and banning it is easily enforceable.

You are most obviously incorrect with your accusation that I missed the point, as I wrote in my post about bugs (glitches/oversights/etc.) and about its enforceability being arguable either way (therefore a gray area).
Anyone with eyes who can read would be able to see this accusation is completely, obviously, and overtly wrong.

He is going to change the meta with this one glitch, and his meta will develop around it. And once it is patched, things will crumble around it.

That is not reason for a ban, that is simply speculation, but leave that to the Pros in the Competitive Arena to deal with.

Banning it until it is patched is logical and easy and causes no problems thanks to it being just a custom move, not the entire character.

If it is logical, then please post this logic (premises => conclusion).
Being "easy" is not part of ban criteria.

You can apply theory all you want, but this is a common sense and easy ban to do temporarily.

I don't have to apply theory, in fact I don't have to do anything at all: I am not the one taking the stand to call for a ban.
Anyone who calls for a ban must face the consequences of proof.
If you are calling for a ban then burden of proof is on you.
Good luck.

Allowing it turns your tournament into one decided by a glitch, and nobody was enjoying it last night.

I disagree.
And I was enjoying it immensely, but let us not fall to going along with the masses - all us competitive players should know by now that we are outnumbered.
It's a good thing we don't let majority rule in the Competitive Arena.
(especially not stream monsters)

This isn't just because it's a glitch, but one that leads to easy any% fixed KOs. If it was a normal then it'd be trickier and we would have to live with it or ban the whole character, but we are lucky it's just a custom move.

You do realize there are other glitches that do similar things that are not "custom moves" - Pit's Side-Special KO's about 44% under certain circumstances (that percentage was based on Dark Pit's weight).
Now you have to ban that too?
I posted a list of moves that would need to be banned if we banned this one and it was one big slippery slope who's middle ground leads all the way back to Roy in Melee. Sorry, but pros don't needlessly ban, we just exploit to the fullest potential.

Tournaments will be smart for banning this move and encouraging normal play to commence without it.

Yes, casual tournaments will be "smart" for banning.
Competitive tournaments will adhere to a Competitive Philosophy (and only ban if reasonable).

There is no reason not to, other than the ideology that we should not ban anything.

We don't need a reason not to, we need a reason to do so. And you have not provided conclusive reasoning to demonstrate this.

]But we have a history of banning things for logical reasons, such as items and certain stages.

Yes, we ban things for logical reasons. Not rhetoric, not fallacy, not opinion... so until someone provides logical reason we don't ban anything.
Also: Items are not banned, they are simply turned "OFF". I won't get into Stages since that would be too much of a tangent.

Banning is not a no-no when it's an obvious and easy to implement case, so your position already has holes.

I'm sorry, I don't think I said where I stood on this discussion.
I am pro-ban: I think all broken glitches should be banned.
So to say that my position has holes is misleading in more than one way: That my position is not what you purport AND positions don't have "holes" - reasoning has holes.

Considering I am not taking a stand to call for a ban then I don't need an argument and therefore couldn't possibly have any holes in my reasoning (as I am not making a case for ban).
If you are taking a stand to call for a ban then you would be the one to make a case for it and right now there's no holes in your case because you haven't even constructed a proper argument to begin with.
Like I said before: Good Luck.

 

[Terotrous]

@ Terotrous : Clearly you didn't see that a ban has not been proven as warranted.

A throw into a one hit kill is definitely really suspect, that's far more reward than the rest of the cast can get off a grab. It doesn't look in any way difficult to pull off in a real match (and already, we have match footage indicating that it can definitely be performed in an actual match).

Honestly if Miis are allowed and Sakurai doesn't fix that in a patch it seems like a really obvious ban to me.

 

[Conda]

@ T0MMY I can't in good conscience debate this for too long. The move has set KO knock back via a clear bug in the move's properties. Nothing is equivalent in jank so far, and it is an easy ban. Better than banning all customs instead, which is the norm. And it's only the norm because people were worried some customs would be broken. Which they were right about, so what does that say?

And what tournaments are you talking about. The ones banning custom moves? Bans are the norm so far, and the majority of tournaments seem perfectly okay with generally banning custom moves. You know why they do it? Because the TOs are suspect of their balance. One inch punch reinforces the general ban on customs. I cannot argue that all customs should be allowed because they are balanced, as one inch lunch is clearly bugged and not working properly. So I have to be disciplined and use my noodle and advise an exception.

So if the majority of tournaments ever decide to legalize custom moves (again, because bans are the norm currently due to suspect balance), banning one that accidentally auto KOs due to a bug would be a logical and minor step.

There is still skepticism about customs being balanced or not, and one inch punch makes that skepticism well placed. It makes the ban on customs have proof supporting it's reasoning.

We can ban this custom, or ban customs over-all simply because some are broken and bugged. Or ban Miis. This is already happening at competitive tournaments, yet it's clearly too heavy handed. There is a better solution. Banning only one inch punch is the option that is most soft handed, outside of allowing it. Same goes for stage bans - allowing all stages sure is easier, but it's lazy and stupid to do so as a TO. Bans take discipline to decide on as a TO, and any disciplined TO that wants to allow Miis will ban one inch lunch while it remains bugged.

Yeah, "hands off and let the pros figure it out" is an easy position to take, but some of us feel we can actually come to a fine common sense conclusion about small bans without worrying that we're being extreme and unrealistic.

 

[T0MMY]

A throw into a one hit kill is definitely really suspect, that's far more reward than the rest of the cast can get off a grab. It doesn't look in any way difficult to pull off in a real match (and already, we have match footage indicating that it can definitely be performed in an actual match).

Suspect != ban.
By your reasoning Jigglypuff's U-Throw => Rest should be banned (it KO's even lower % than One Inch Punch).
When you present this reasoning to Pros in the Competitive Arena it would be seen as a joke. Just a fair warning.

Honestly if Miis are allowed and Sakurai doesn't fix that in a patch it seems like a really obvious ban to me.

Not saying it won't be patched nor that it should not be patched, but in that scenario I'd just shrug your opinion off and get on with things.

@ T0MMY I can't in good conscience debate this for too long.

I wouldn't be able to either if I were going about it the way you were.

The move has set KO knock back via a clear bug in the move's properties.

Since I am pro-ban, I would have to ask you: How do you know it is a "clear bug"?
How do you know it was not intended? Do you have some kind of information that none of us have, or are you a game developer who worked on this game, or............ is just this fluffy speculation based on a preconceived opinion? (I'm thinking the latter is the most likely case here)

And what tournaments are you talking about. The ones banning custom moves? Bans are the norm so far, and the majority of tournaments seem perfectly okay with generally banning custom moves.

They don't "ban" Custom Moves, they simply state the settings for the game. One setting of which is Customization: Off.

You know why they do it? Because the TOs are suspect of their balance.

Where do you see this, or is this more fluffy speculation?

One inch punch reinforces the general ban on customs. I cannot argue that all customs should be allowed because they are balanced, as one inch lunch is clearly bugged and not working properly. So I have to be disciplined and use my noodle and advise an exception.

Until you prove it is "clearly bugged" then this has no ground to stand on.

So if the majority of tournaments ever decide to legalize custom moves (again, because bans are the norm currently due to suspect balance), banning one that accidentally auto KOs due to a bug would be a logical and minor step.

That does not follow.
Fallacy of majority is still a fallacy no matter how you dress it up.

We can ban this custom, or ban customs over-all simply because some are broken and bugged. Or ban Miis. This is already happening at competitive tournaments, yet it's clearly too heavy handed.

I would disagree that this is happening at "competitive" tournaments, I would say that banning Mii is happening at "scrubby" tournaments. But maybe our definition of "competitive" differ?

There is a better solution. Banning only one inch punch is the option that is most soft handed, outside of allowing it.

Banning just that tech would still have to undergo a proof. Enforceable? Not entirely. Identifiable? No. Warranted? Clearly: No.

Same goes for stage bans - allowing all stages sure is easier, but it's lazy and stupid to do so as a TO. Bans take discipline to decide on as a TO, and any disciplined TO that wants to allow Miis will ban one inch lunch while it remains bugged.

I disagree, as this does not follow.
TO's can ban anything they want, but it doesn't mean every ban is reasonable.

Yeah, "hands off and let the pros figure it out" is an easy position to take, but some of us feel we can actually come to a fine common sense conclusion about small bans without worrying that we're being extreme and unrealistic.

I'm not saying you can't come to a conclusion about bans. I am saying that if you are worrying about the metagame in a Competitive Tournament then let the pros figure that out.
Until then you're still going to need a proof of ban, and you still haven't reasonably demonstrated one.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Why do you do that?
That kind of takes away one of the strategic aspects of using the Mii.

I personally rule changing custom moves akin to changing characters or stages, so it's something that needs to be considered in counterpicks.

 

[Thinkaman]

I do not think Piston Punch deserves to be banned.

However, I think this is a reasonable, respectable, and non-dangerous (non-slippery-slope) argument to make:

• "Piston Punch is bugged in a significant way; it seems likely that it will be fixed, and so should ban it until it is fixed."

Again, I don't agree. But I think that is the only valid way to phrase an objection to the move.

They don't "ban" Custom Moves, they simply state the settings for the game. One setting of which is Customization: Off.

Lol, this is semantic non-sense.

By this logic we don't "ban" stages, we just happen to use a stage-pick procedure that doesn't let you pick some of them.

Smogon doesn't "ban" Pokemon, they just require teams that don't include certain ones. Ect.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I just want to poke my head in real quick and say that the Mii Brawler's One-Inch Punch technique looks like it's exploiting the same mechanism behind spiking with the first hit of Greninja's uair, Mega Man's bair, etc. That is, the initial hits of multihit moves have unusual knockback properties in order to link the rest of the move properly and precise spacing and timing can let players connect with only that first hit.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I just want to poke my head in real quick and say that the Mii Brawler's One-Inch Punch technique looks like it's exploiting the same mechanism behind spiking with the first hit of Greninja's uair, Mega Man's bair, etc. That is, the initial hits of multihit moves have unusual knockback properties in order to link the rest of the move properly and precise spacing and timing can let players connect with only that first hit.

Are you talking about the multi-hit mini spike?

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you want to know what it reminds me of, it's like Mario's 0-to-death on anyone from Top platform on Battlefield(middle platform if you do it against jiggs) because you just do UThrow, Full jump Dair (dunno if Vector can save) and then Up+B but only hit with the active frames during the move except for the final hit.

The difference with Brawler is that it's a lot more ridiculous than this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Are you talking about the multi-hit mini spike?

Yes. As far as I can tell the only difference between that and the One-Inch Punch is the actual knockback value being exploited. Unless I'm way off base with how it's done.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yes. As far as I can tell the only difference between that and the One-Inch Punch is the actual knockback value being exploited. Unless I'm way off base with how it's done.

Right, it's just an incredibly (bizarrely) high base knockback hitbox. It doesn't kill at 999%.