Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[Gamingboy]

My opinion on Mii is that we should only allow one type, like default or min min / max min. Well, i don't know that much on mii, but i imagine that there is no fast way to check on miis. So one solution is that TO would create a stardard mii, who's gonna be used for all three miis (well, maybe 2 standards mii like @popsofctown suggested), then create the miis with optimal moveset.

So one can choose to use the optimal mii or create another with the standard mii as base and select other moves. Don't know if i'm really clear on this one.

If there no simple and fast method to do that, i'll certainly be against mii in competitive plays.

I remember in some Magazine (N Force?) they suggested a standardized Mii and even suggested moves, etc.

 

[Daisy101]

it could be sweet to try 2stock/8minute been a lot TO recently not only on local but for Glory.

 

[Terotrous]

The Smooth Lander badge auto L-cancels. The stats is different for each one, so a +3 version of the badge is best. The decreased stats can be neutralized with another item.

This could be a new approach for more competitive matches

I really don't see why it's so hard for people to understand that landing lag is part of the game. There's a reason every move has uniquely-defined landing lag values and autocancels at certain frames. If they wanted 0 landing lag on all aerials they would have made the game that way.

In general, Smash isn't supposed to be some braindead anime fighter where everything is safe and leads to huge combos. If you want safety, you use long ranged pokes or projectiles which generally do little damage. Going for bigger damage exposes you to more risk if you get read. That's the way fighting games are supposed to work. Note that many aerials are still fairly safe on shield due to shield stun anyway.

I remember in some Magazine (N Force?) they suggested a standardized Mii and even suggested moves, etc.

There's really no need to standardize the moveset, when custom moves are allowed we don't standardize for any other character. The bigger issue is the height / weight of the Mii. It seems to me that the easiest solution is that if Miis are available, you provide default Miis who have the default (middle) height and weight.

I actually just recreated the Miis that they use for the promotional art. They're really simple to make.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually just recreated the Miis that they use for the promotional art. They're really simple to make.

And I thought I was being clever and unique for doing the same thing. Damn.

 

[Terotrous]

And I thought I was being clever and unique for doing the same thing. Damn.

The idea is actually for it not to be unique at all, but a solution that everyone could implement consistently.

 

[T0MMY]

So, based on your saying, like "limiting your opponents' options", we should allow equipement and items... no ? At least equipement, so nobody can know how much % they done in a certain hit or at what % a move can kill. Pretty much like letting anyone playing their miis, as stated before ? But, what can i say to THE competitive player here ?

Seems to me like you are jumping to conclusions here? Let me help you with a clarification: Limiting opponents is not the same as toggling settings OFF (that doesn't limit just your opponent, that limits ALL players, including yourself).
When Pops responds we can get into just how crazy that whole proposition is, but all in due time.

Hey, i can to be ironical to make fun of someone too ! No seriously, dude you don't need to trash talk to make a point, as it often do quite the opposite.

I'm sorry, where is this trash talk you speak of?
And, please don't make fun of people here. It's one thing to be silly, it's another thing to try to make someone out to be a fool/clown at the expense of the conversation. It is also against site rules.

Back on the subject, you made a point saying that TO don't have time for that, which is true. So, between your solution and banning Miis altogether, i can say what option will be chosen, but you may be disappointed.

Being disappointed is not an option for me since I have no expectations placed upon you. I dislike expectations, so don't put any effort into them.

I thought that those forum were made to discuss over things, to express your point of view and seeing what other people think. I may be against Miis, but if they are part of the standard ruleset, i'm going to fight with and against them. You might disagree with my opinion, but I don't see your point of being disrespectful here.

I'm sorry, where was I being disrespectful? Just FYI, I find groundless accusations to be offensive and insulting, so please don't flame me with such.

On a side note, if this is your usual self, be don't come to any event i may be hosting, thanks :D.

I actually act completely different IRL. It's only when people initiate argument that I may play devil's advocate and counter with my best logic to help put their reasoning to the test. I never mean any disrespect either online or IRL, but if someone is pressed with hard logic they may mistake an attack on argument for attack on their person and being logically intimidated initiates a fight-or-flight response and err to such behavior as ad hominems or flagging my comments (fight) rather than try to logically counter my reasoning. At which point great thinkers have said is the point where one argument "wins" over the other.

EDIT : As you said :

Aren't you limiting my option here ?

What is this in context to?

Mii Fighters with variable statistics throw a wrench into this arrangement. Now, a player going up against a Mii Fighter has to know a whole range of variables. Maybe some combos work with certain weights and not others, for example. I'd personally consider this unreasonable.

This argument is nearly equivalent in saying no more than one character may be used in tournament because using more than one character means an opponent would have to know a whole range of variables (due to slippery slope).

Maybe some combos work on some Mii (maybe), but claims should be backed up by reason/evidence, I would suggest you get conclusive data to show that it either does or does affect combos.

Until then all I could do is work with theory: Conditional. If it the data is conclusive and we are left with information on how to combo certain weight classes then we would have the knowledge to improve and it is therefore not unreasonable to improve on combos (the information is readily available after all) - but this information is not necessarily needed, as comboing within a variety of weight classes is something any mediocre competitive player would already intuitively know how to do on the fly (in addition to differing air mobility and other statistics that the Mii do not vary in) - doesn't matter if it's Bowser or Jigglypuff, a good player will adjust accordingly in a much broader way than the Mi could diversify.

And ultimately, even if it were the case that Mii statistics change drastically enough to affect a player AND it is somehow outside ordinary means then, competitively, we still come to the conclusion that it is up to the player to get better, not a TO's job to place limitations on that player's opponents just so said player doesn't need to improve.

Conclusively: As much as it may seem to you about a small degree of Mii statistic variance being unreasonable to allow, it would be far more unreasonable to impose such out-of-game rules on competitors.

The stronger solution is once again: Just let the players play the game.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

do you think we should ask sakurai for a way to turn off hazards on stages in the next patch,,,,,,,,,e.g the laesr on halberd

 

[popsofctown]

do you think we should ask sakurai for a way to turn off hazards on stages in the next patch,,,,,,,,,e.g the laesr on halberd

just use stagebuilder

 

[T0MMY]

do you think we should ask sakurai for a way to turn off hazards on stages in the next patch,,,,,,,,,e.g the laesr on halberd

This was already asked of him and he said he did not want to do that as a simple toggle:off option like items.
What he gave us is the Omega version of each Stage which I think addresses everything a stage hazard option would provide plus making the stage even ground in case it was argued the stage design was "hazardous" (which many people argue given balloons and platforms gimping recovery, thus making a hazard of something otherwise benign).

 

[NoviceSmasher]

i know but it would be nice to play on them stages competitively

 

[NoviceSmasher]

This was already asked of him and he said he did not want to do that as a simple toggle:off option like items.
What he gave us is the Omega version of each Stage which I think addresses everything a stage hazard option would provide plus making the stage even ground in case it was argued the stage design was "hazardous" (which many people argue given balloons and platforms gimping recovery, thus making a hazard of something otherwise benign).

different characters benefit from different stages,,,e.g little mac benefits from flat ground but suffers on platforms

 

[T0MMY]

i know but it would be nice to play on them stages competitively

How can you not play on them competitively? Just choose the stage and play against your opponent.
Unless you are speaking about tournament play. TO's will decide on which stages to allow for their events and most will allow for practically any stage to be used under some circumstances.

different characters benefit from different stages,,,e.g little mac benefits from flat ground but suffers on platforms

Not sure the point of this, but ok.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

How can you not play on them competitively? Just choose the stage and play against your opponent.
Unless you are speaking about tournament play. TO's will decide on which stages to allow for their events and most will allow for practically any stage to be used under some circumstances.


Not sure the point of this, but ok.

its called an example to prove my point.....and you clearly dont understand competitive play then ,,platforms are needed and it helps if the stages with platforms are originally made by the smash team

 

[lordvaati]

So yeah, some people are saying that if push come to shove at the very least Palutena and mii Fighter should have legal customs since they are defaults(aka no convoluted unlocking s***).

Thoughts?

 

[LiteralGrill]

i know but it would be nice to play on them stages competitively

What's wrong with Halberd competitively? I don't see why you think the hazards need turning off the first place.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

What's wrong with Halberd competitively? I don't see why you think the hazards need turning off the first place.

when two players are battling and if its for like a tournament....a player losing a stock to a laser is really frustrating to watch

 

[LiteralGrill]

when two players are battling and if its for like a tournament....a player losing a stock to a laser is really frustrating to watch

The hazard is very predictable and easy to avoid and work around. Though if we wanna talk stage legality, the stage discussion thread is a better placed.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

The hazard is very predictable and easy to avoid and work around. Though if we wanna talk stage legality, the stage discussion thread is a better placed.

ye i was lazy

 

[T0MMY]

So yeah, some people are saying that if push come to shove at the very least Palutena and mii Fighter should have legal customs since they are defaults(aka no convoluted unlocking s***).

Thoughts?

I think at least one person of the "some people" you are referring to is Dapuffster, whom I have been talking with over such matters about Mii Brawler (or just Mii in general) before any debacle came up. Having both discovered the Piston Punch exploit(?) independently we both have different approaches to the matter. He is trying to compromise and I firmly believe that any such call to ban or limit characters, moves, or exploits need to meet the criteria to do such. He offered to not use Piston Punch and other ultimatums, but I will not be imposing any such out-of-game rulings at my events and advocate others to adhere to competitive standards as well (seeing that it would be "scrubby" to do so, to put it simply in this simple post).

My stance right now is to either have the event use Customization: On, or to set that to "Off" depending which the TO wants. Either one won't affect Mii since I can't reasonably argue Mii fighters use Custom Moves. This can be swept under the rug with some kind of vague counter-argument of "semantics" but the point still stands and the software doesn't seem to recognize Mii's specials as such. Palutena, on the other hand, does seem to use Custom Moves as recognized by Customization.

Customization: On/Off, take your choice. Then play the game & have fun and we go back to not listening to the usual haters hating.

its called an example to prove my point.....and you clearly dont understand competitive play then ,,platforms are needed and it helps if the stages with platforms are originally made by the smash team

I don't believe examples prove points, axiomatic propositions utilizing rule of inference is what you're looking for I believe.
Let me know when you find a derivation for your necessary platform postulation and we'll analyze it to see if it can be used as a theorem.

And must I have then been wasting my time competing in high level tournaments around the nation and hosting tournaments if I don't understand competitive play?

 

[Reaperfan]

What he gave us is the Omega version of each Stage which I think addresses everything a stage hazard option would provide plus making the stage even ground in case it was argued the stage design was "hazardous" (which many people argue given balloons and platforms gimping recovery, thus making a hazard of something otherwise benign).

Final Destination is not, and has never really been, a balanced stage. It favors characters who like having alot of space to maneuver and hinders characters that rely on smaller spaces, who typically need platforms for their approach options. This is why, more often than not, most people will call Battlefield or Smashville the most balanced stages.

A stage hazard switch would open up stages such as Warioware, Jungle Japes, and Brinstar as competitive options. Without the microgames, river, and lava, respectively, all of those stages have interesting sizes and layouts to play on. Reskinning Final Destination and changing the background music doesn't add any new variety to how we play the game (even though the Omega stages aren't actually real reskins and do change the shape of the stage, if in no real significant way).

 

[T0MMY]

Final Destination is not, and has never really been, a balanced stage.

I long for the time when this argument is put to rest.
No stage is "balanced", furthermore the degree of "balanced" is subjective to our individual opinion and is the root for every never-ending debate about stages to be used. This essentially comes down to an ad naseum argument and to keep this from being off-topic and moved to Stage Discussion thread I think I'll leave it at that.

It favors characters who like having alot of space to maneuver and hinders characters that rely on smaller spaces, who typically need platforms for their approach options. This is why, more often than not, most people will call Battlefield or Smashville the most balanced stages.

Competitively speaking this is why a competitor should use a character that takes advantage of the stage if they are going to be using it.
Also, is there not a hazard on Smashville which gimps recoveries and nullifies projectiles (balloon), therefore it isn't "balanced" and shouldn't be used.
Would a hazard toggle get rid of the balloon? (the moving platform can be argued to be more of a "hazard" yet).

A stage hazard switch would open up stages such as Warioware, Jungle Japes, and Brinstar as competitive options.

Ultimately I do agree with you, but now the conversation has to evolve into nuance. Would you say the water in Japes is competitively viable? Or saying that water should be considered a "hazard" and removed with the hazard option?
And is Brinstar's breakable objects considered too "unbalancing" to allow (certainly if FD and a little balloon are unbalanced then this would disqualify Brinstar).
Additionally, would the Warioware games still should reasonably happen (but without the "hazards") if other dynamic stages are allowed.

EDIT: Saw you addressed the question of water. But should non-hazard mini-games & breakable objects still be in a "non-hazard" version still remains.

And to the point of how much it really matters, because the hard fact right now is we don't have a no-hazard option, so is it something we must request a patch for or seek to hack P:M style? We don't need those stages to play the game competitively, obviously, as it is being done so right now. It could be argued for the sake of aesthetics or just the novelty of something "different", but is that means to justify a goal?

This analysis reduces to opinion much like the "balanced stage" subject, and subjectivity of balance and such is the realm of the game designers. We are not the game designers, Sakurai (et al) would be, so ultimately I have to just accept the game for how it is. So maybe address this to Sakurai (and I pointed out it was, and he gave us Omega versions) or direct and design your own game much like the P:M team did. Sounds like it could be fun.

Final point of interest if Hazard Toggle were the case: There would most certainly be the case that these stages would be "banned" still - just look at how Omegas are "banned" and how certain ones are questioned for being allowed due to walls of stage extending down, differing shapes, non-wall jump areas, light/dark issues, background, and probably some more issues I am unaware of. Ultimately someone somewhere is going to want to ban a stage for any difference claiming "unbalanced" which is where I believe Sakurai came to the decision to give us Smash "fanatics" the one Stage we (publicly) worship: Final Destination only.
Agree with him, disagree with him?

As for my opinion, I'm ambivalent, I play competitively so I just play the game and have more fun that way.

 

[Zelder]

Hey who do I have to bribe to get 3 stock 8 minutes back in the mix? This two stock match set up is killing the hype for me!

 

[Rubica]

Rubica Back Room Recommended Ruleset

Stage List

Singles Starter Stages:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination + Omega
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Town and City

Singles Counterpick Stages:

• Delfino Plaza
• Luigi's Mansion
• Halberd
• Wuhu Island
• Pilotwings

Doubles Starter Stages:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination + Omega
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Town and City
• Duck Hunt
• Kongo Jungle 64

Doubles Counterpick Stages:

• Delfino Plaza
• Luigi's Mansion
• Halberd
• Wuhu Island
• Pilotwings
• Jungle Hijinxs
• Skyloft

Squad (3v3, 4v4) Starter Stages:

• Battlefield
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Yoshi's Island
• Duck Hunt
• Windy Hill Zone
• Omega

Squad Counterpick Stages:

• Big Battlefield
• Temple

General Rules

• Items are off
• Stock and Time are respectively set to 3 stock and 8 minutes
• Double Blind can be requested by either player
• Dave's Stupid Rule in effect for stages which a player has won on in any given set (not reset with bracket in Grand Finals)
• Gentleman's Rule in effect for all stages; Does not effect number of matches played per set
• Experimental; Subject to change: In singles, at the beginning of every set, competitors will play bo1 RPS. The winner gets to choose between either Port Priority, or First Stage Select. The other will be given to their opponent.
• Losing player of the preceding match in a set picks the next stage and may freely contest port priority
• Winning player of the preceding match is the first to repick their character (if at all), followed by the losing player (if at all)
• If players so choose, they are allowed to pick Random Character
• A timed-out match will be decided by Stock > Percent > 1-stock 2-minute rematch on the same stage, with the same characters
• Pausing will only be tolerated while you're on your own respawn platform, and only in the cases of visible personal injury, controller malfunction, summoning a TO, or an act of god. Otherwise, you are to forfeit one stock.
• Coaching mid-match will not be tolerated. First offense is a warning, second offense is full event disqualification.
• Be on time! If you are 5-minutes late to your event, it will result in a match loss. 10-minutes late, a set loss.
• Team Play: Team Attack On, Life Steal Allowed

Character-Specific Rules

• Diddy Kong Banned Kappa
• Until such a time that Nintendo has released a patch allowing for the in-games rules to be set to "Custom Moves: On; Equipment: Off," Custom Fighters is off.
• The Bob Rule: However, given that Miis are allowed to use custom movesets without gaining custom stats, a mid-height, mid-weight, precreated Mii named "Bob" can be used to create a Mii Fighter. TOs must have "Bob" on their consoles for this rule to be in effect. Bob is the completely default Male Mii. If a player wishes to use a Mii Fighter, it must be created before the start of the set in which you wish to use it. You cannot stop mid-set to change your Mii Fighter's moveset.

 

[Osirun]

This is the current ruleset that I have worked on for Singles:

• Starter
  • Battlefield / Miiverse
  • Final Destination / Omegas
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Smashville
• Counterpick
  • Castle Siege
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Duck Hunt
  • Kongo Jungle 64
  • Pilotwings
  • Skyloft
  • Skyworld
  • Town and City
  • Wuhu Island
• 3 Stock, 8 min
• No Items
• No Equipment
• Custom Fighters, including Mii Fighters, are legal if the player transfers them from 3DS to Wii U.
• Stage striking from the Starter list determines the first stage of the set. If first strike cannot be agree upon, then rock, paper, scissors determines it.
• Winner of a match may change character and ban 1 stage from the next match.
• Loser of a match may change character and pick a new stage from the lists of Starter or Counterpick, except for the stage banned by the winner.
• You may not select a stage you previously won on in a set.

My reasoning for allowing Custom Specials and Mii Fighters can be found at this link in the forums.

 

[T0MMY]

About

Spoiler

Mine is a decade-long work of passion, in order to craft this beauty I started with the golden era of Melee and went on to help structure rules to be used in my state and region before discoursing with fellow TO's outside my region. I researched rules used in other fields such as athletic sports and chess as well as anything I could find relating to video game tournaments and I, naturally, found David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" which stood head and shoulders apart from everything else I was consuming (in context of Smash and validity). Recently I decided to double-major with Philosophy alongside my Science degree because I found logic to be the cornerstone of scientific studies as well as incredibly useful (or should I say necessary!) to the services I've been offering to the Smash Community regarding rulings.
The result is the following.

Powered by Competitive Philosophy

Without further ado:

Competitive Standard Rule Set:

The Competitive Standard is a set of instructions that will allow a competitive match to be recognized for a Competitive Tournament event and officially recorded for ranking purposes.
The following will be determined/executed for purposes of tournament rankings:

1. Determine Controller Port
   
2. Determine Characters
3. Determine Stage
4. Play the game

Game Settings

Rules

Rules: Stock
Stock: 2*
Customization: Off
Handicap: Off
Damage Ratio: 1.0x
Stage Choice: Choose
​

Items Switch

• All Off
• Off

More Rules

Stock & Time: 5
Team Attack: On
Pause Function: Off
Score Display: Off
Damage Gauge: On
SD Penalty: -1
​

Random Stage Switch

Normal Stages: All Off
Omega Form: All Off​

Bracket Rules

Bracket: Double-elimination
Set: Best 2 wins of 3 rounds ("first to 2") advances winning competitor in bracket.
Upper Finals: Best 2 of 3
Lower Finals: Best 2 of 3
Grand Finals: Best 3 of 5 ("first to 3")

Option 1 (pools)

Bracket: Round Robin
Set: Best of 1
Advancement: Top 2 advance out of Pools to Double-elimination bracket.
​

Option 2 (pools)

Bracket: Swiss Format
Set: Best 2 of 3
Advancement: Top 2 advance out of pools to Double-elimination bracket.​

Determining Controller Ports

Spoiler

Only one controller and one port may be used by any one competitor during rounds of competition.
Before a round of play may commence, all competitors must be connected to the game with their controllers set properly as determined by the Tournament Director/Organizer.​

Port Selection

Selection of Ports for controllers is determined in the following procedure:

1. Competitors may Agree to Controller Port used by their opponents.
2. If no declaration of contest is made then it is assumed the ports used are agreed upon.
   
3. If a declaration of contest is made by any competitor then a drawing of lots will be used to determine which competitor gets first choice in Controller Port
   • A referee will flip a coin for 2 players or teams.
   • Additional number of players/teams will use a random generated number equaling to the number of competitors/teams to determine Controller Port choice.

Determining Characters

Spoiler

Competitors may choose any Character on the Character Select Screen for use in tournament unless named in the "Banned Character List".
Random is considered a character for all intents and purposes unless listed in the "Banned Character List".​

Character Selection

Selection of Characters is determined in the following procedure:

1. Competitors make a pledge of character they plan to use by naming the Character to their opponent(s).
   
2. Competitors select the Character pledged by placing the in-game Player Token on the character.
   
3. Competitors may opt to change their pledge of character as long as play has not proceeded to Stage Selection within reasonable time.
4. If a Competitor breaks their pledge of Character choice after Stage Selection has commenced the referee may issue a penalty.
   
5. If the Competitors cannot come to an agreement of Characters to be used then a double-blind procedure is enforced.

Double-blind Procedure

Double-blind will be carried out in the following fashion:

1. All Character Tokens are removed from the Characters they are placed upon, if any.
2. Competitors/Teams will disclose, privately to the acting referee, the name of the Character(s) they pledge to use for the following round of play.
3. The referee will write down the name of the Character disclosed and show it to the Competitor to verify the character choice.
4. No names of the characters being pledged nor the names of the characters not being pledged may be disclosed to anyone other than the Competitors of their respective choices.
   
5. Once all Character Pledges have been disclosed to the acting referee the Competitors will select their named Characters for play by placing the in-game Character Token upon the Character in the Character Select Screen.
6. If any Competitor attempts to use a different character than pledged, violating the pledge, the referee may issue a penalty to the violator.

Determining Stage

Spoiler

Standard Stage Selection

Competitors must proceed through the following steps starting with Method 1. and following through to 3. until a method is determined by which to select a Stage.

1. Agreement Method
2. Option for Random
   
3. Ultimatum: Striking Method

Method Descriptions

• Agreement Method

Any Stage may be agreed upon so long as the stage name is not listed in the "Banned Stages" list.​

• Option for Random

Competitors may opt to utilize the in-game random Stage function so long as all competitors are in agreement to this method.​

• Striking Method

If any competitor refuses the Agreement and Random methods then the Striking Method is used via the Stage Striking procedure.​

Stage Striking procedure:

Striking is used to remove Stages from the Tournament Stage List for the set leaving only a specific number of Stages to be used.
The following steps must be followed through in a procedural manner to determine a Stage by way of Stage Striking Method:

1. Set the variable "X" to the number of potential rounds of play in the match (i.e. X = 3 in a best of 3 set or X = 5 in a best of 5 set).
2. The Competitor/Team to strike first is determined by drawing of lots (e.g. coin-flip for 2 Competitors/Teams) - The Competitor/Team determined by the drawing of lots is named "S1" and the other Competitor is named "S2" for Striking purposes; with more than 2 Competitors the numerical value corresponds with the number of competitors (e.g."S8" for 8-player striking).
3. Players/Teams alternate turns striking out one Stage per turn from Tournament Stage List until X stages remain.
   1. S1 determines the Stage to be used first round of play.
   2. S2 determines the Stage to be used for second round of play.
   3. If playing in a Best of 3 match: The remaining Stage is to be used for third round of play; end procedure.
      • If not playing a Best of 3 match, proceed to next step.
   4. In a greater than Bo3 match, S2 determines the 3rd Stage to be used round 3.
   5. S1 determines the 4th round of play.
   6. If playing in a Best of 5 match: The remaining fifth Stage is used for the final round of play; end procedure.
      • If playing out a set with greater than 5 rounds, please see note below.

Note: In other sets, such as a Bo7 set or beyond, the determining of Stage order played should be determined in a likewise fashion: S1, S2, S2, S1, S2, S1 with the final seventh Stage remaining.

Note: If there are less Stages available on the Tournament Stage List than there are rounds of play in a set then Striking is skipped and procedure starts with determining which Stage is used for each round (e.g. if Final Destination and Battlefield are the only Stages available in a Bo3 set then S2 has the choice of the second round Stage and S1 has first and last choice between FD & BF).

Tournament Stage List

(List of Stages as chosen by TO go here)​

Suggested list of Tournament Stages

These are suggested Stages that may be used for the Striking Method or Random Method options:

• Final Destination
• Battlefield
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Town and City
• Skyworld
• Duck Hunt

This list was compiled by starting with all stages then removing Stages with "hazards", "large" stages, exceptionally dynamic Stages, and Stages with "Walk-offs", and any other reason that promotes stalling tactics.

It is not necessary to use all the listed stages, Tournament Organizers are encouraged to tailor these to their attendee's needs. A minimum of one Stage must be used for Competition to commence.
​

Banned Stages

(List of Stages not allowed to be used go here)
​

Suggested Banned Stages

These are Stages suggested for exclusion of tournament competition:

• Big Battlefield
• Mushroom Kingdom U
• Jungle Hijynx
• The Great Cave Offensive
• Palutena's Temple
• Gaur Plain
• 75m
• Windy Hill Zone
• PAC-LAND
• Custom Stages

These Stages are suggested to be banned due to size or design which enables/promotes "stalling" such as excessive camping and keep-away tactics.
If the Competitors attempt to use one of these Banned Stages, the round should not be recognized as official; competitors are to be asked to reset the match and be given 5 minutes to complete one of the Stage Choice Methods.​

Playing the Game

Spoiler

After Ports, Characters, and Stage are determined, the Competitors will find the game at the Stage Select Menu.
The Referee shall ask if the Competitors if they are "ready" to start the match.
When all Competitors respond affirmatively the Referee will start the round on the proper Stage.
If there is a call to halt the set by a competitor then the referee may allot 5-minutes to settle any matters after which time has expired the Referee may penalize a Competitor for tardiness.

Penalties

Competitors may be penalized for violating certain codes of conduct within a tournament event.
These codes of conduct are as follows:

• Poor Sportsmanship

Any show of poor sportsmanship should result in a warning. Excessive show of poor sportsmanship should result in a disqualification penalty (DQ). Excessive poor sportsmanship includes offensive actions/words/gestures/suggestions directed toward another person or group of people; damage of property; violent actions that may cause bodily harm; intolerable disrespect.​

• Collusion

Any Competitor found manipulating bracket results may be immediately disqualified (DQ) by penalty of collusion. This may be by purposefully forfeiting matches to skew results, under-performing, having another person play in their steed, or any other deceitful action as recognized by a Referee.
​

• Tardiness

Competitors will be given sufficient and reasonable time to play their matches as well as proper public announcements for sets to be played.

1. After 5 minutes have passed from time of a proper public set announcement and any Competitor is not at the announced set then a 5-minute warning will be publicly announced naming the Competitor in question and calling named Competitor to their set.
2. After the allotted 5 minutes has expired a Penalty Warning will be made publicly announced.
3. If proceedings have not immediately started by time of Penalty Warning then a Round Loss penalty shall be given to the violator.
4. Another 5 minute warning shall be publicly announced as a Final Warning.
5. After the allotted 5 minutes has expired a Disqualification (DQ) will be announced and the violating Competitor shall immediately be disqualified from their set match.

Use/Distribution

Spoiler

Want to use this rule set? Please do! It is a public domain, non-royalty, free-to-use, and open source rule set. I only ask that if you print or use this in whole or in part to please credit me for my work:

"Originally rulecrafted by t0mmy (A.K.A.: "Super Smash Twin t0mmy" or "t0mMii") who crafted this in the month of November in the year 2014 for use with Super Smash Bros. for Wii U"​

In addition to the above there is a lot more work I've put into detailing specifics and niche rulings which I omitted in this post (it's published elsewhere). I will be making that information readily available when given a greater opportunity to show to a larger audience.

Until then, any general feedback would be appreciated as this will be submitted to those who can publish to this site in the appropriate area.

Please "like/share/comment"!

 

[N7Kopper]

I had no idea that Mii Fighters and custom moves (equipment is blatant casuals) would be so... controversial. Hell, I only just learned the one-inch punch.
I'll leave the whole "ban, don't ban, play it safe or avoid scrubbery" thing for people who actually play Smash tourneys rather than merely watch, but I just wanted to raise a point about the height/weight mechanic of Miis, and potential problems with exact hit/hurtboxes and weight based off of height/weight.

Reverse-engineering the format of Mii data. Not even Mii Fighter data, but just Mii data. (Although both combined is the best for development of meta, that won't happen for a while yet) They might work in a class-based formats similar to Mario Kart, with one or two points meaning nothing unless it crosses a divider line between classes.

It's already been done for the Wii, and while it's unknown exactly how Mii Fighters are affected by small increments, it is potentially possible (if slightly time-consuming) to know the exact stats of a Mii, by importing one from the Wii that had previously been ripped from the NAND/Wiimotes. This'll likely be far too time-consuming for tourneys right now, but remember how much easier it can make development of later meta and kill% checking and things. Of course, the problem then is "do you communicate to your opponent(s), and if so, how?" I like fighting game scenes because they ban minimally - not like shooter-based ones like Halo MLG that ban routinely for style and crowd mugging as opposed to bad balance or minimal need for skill.

I say this only because I've seen many a hothead in other threads let their knee-jerk emotions rule over logical data collection and advancement of Sm4sh's hopefully rich competitive scene.

In the meantime, I'll be playing tourney format friendlies and the muckrake that is For Glory, and watching the pros.

 

[Reaperfan]

-snipped for space-

My imagining, and what I assume others' imagining of a Stage Hazard Switch to be would be "anything that is not a platform is removed."

Brinstar would have no breakable objects. Smashville would have no balloons. Warioware would have no microgames whatsoever. Wily's Castle would have no yellow guy. Halberd would have no lasers. And so on. All that would exist is the original layout and transition of the stage.

You're right in that the game just is how it is right now. But we're still allowed to complain. In fact, I would say now is the best time to complain with as much attention as Sakurai is giving trying to understand the competitive scene. But as a designer I don't think he's ever designed a competitive experience before and so doesn't really know what we want. He's no Capcom, Blizzard, or Riot Games. Final Destination has never outstandingly been the "omg best stage ever" and the only people vocal about that were people who themselves didn't understand and/or were making fun of the competitive scene ('FOX ONLY, NO ITEMS, FINAL DESTINATION' meme anyone?).

Sakurai is very good at designing games for fun. He's very creative in making interesting effects and variation in how different stages can change how you play based on how the stages mess with you. But the competitive scene doesn't want the stage messing with the players beyond a very minor degree. The outcome of the match needs to be in the players' hands, not the lava that randomly decided to save the guy who just got spiked over the edge or the exploding capsule that spawned in front a player in the middle of charging a forward smash.

Ultimately, even on all those lists you all posted above, compare the total amount of stages available in the game versus the ones that you all deemed competitively viable. At best you're looking at about 25% of the stages being considered viable for a given match, with first round picks never expanding past 5-6 options out of the 40+ stages. Give us an option to turn off stage hazards and you could expand that to 50% or more, maybe even on first picks. Maybe we would still end up deeming some stages unviable. But the point is that now we aren't even given options because a small minority of the casual scene decided to joke about Final Destination.

Agree with him or disagree? I'm going to disagree. I'll still play because I love these games even with the incredibly limited options allowed to us. But he could do so much more for us without even bothering the casual scene and with such a simple toggle that he for some reason just doesn't want to do.

 

[ATH_]

For the online tourney I host, we use Sakurai's For Glory ruleset but with a string of stages. We go swiss for 6 rounds then a Bye round if needed. Mattering how many players we go for a top 4/8, where it's Single-Elim for top 4 and Double-elim for top 8. It seems to work fine in Swiss, goes quick and doesn't seem to be much confusion.

 

[AccountsDept]

General Rules -
Sm4sh should be played on Day 2 of any two day tournament, for the sake of the sm4sh players being able to set up their customs, controls, and etc., considering the greater amount of time required to do so compared to Melee/PM.

A maximum of 3 minutes to choose a stage. If the three minutes are succeeded, the two/four/six/eight players have to choose a random stage from the legal stage list, regardless of round (so stage timer timeouts can go to counterpicks even on round 1, an added incentive to hurry the **** up)

Customs On
Equipment Banned
Miis Banned
The FD

Singles Ruleset -
2 Stocks, Five Minutes

Legal Stages -

Starters:

1. Battlefield/Miiverse
2. Smashville
3. Final Destination
4. Pokemon Stadium 2

Counter-Picks

1. Ω/FD - (Why a counter-pick? Because the player counterpicking can choose the omega he/she wants most. Omegas vary slightly in size, properties, speed, and shape. Some are walled and some are floating. They can only be played counter rounds because slight advantages can be given depending on the Ω stage chosen. They're still grouped with FD.)
2. Town and City - (I think this one can be a little advantageous towards certain chars.)
3. Lylat
4. Castle Siege
5. Kongo Jungle
6. Delfino Plaza
7. Skyloft
8. Pilotwings
9. Duck Hunt (Platforms are weird on this one, so it's a counterpick because of camp potential.
10. Skyworld
11. Halberd

Doubles Ruleset
2 Stocks, Five Minutes

Legal Stages -

Starters:

1. Battlefield/Miiverse
2. Final Destination
3. Smashville
4. Town and City (Less advantageous in doubles.)
5. Pokemon Stadium 2

Counter-Picks :

1. Jungle Hijinxs (BUT CANNONS! The cannons don't matter. The players should adapt to them like everything else. The double layered design lends itself to interesting play, and the cannon limit prevents cannon spamming. I hope we don't leave this one behind.)
2. Lylat Cruise
3. Castle Siege
4. Kongo Jungle
5. Delfino Plaza
6. Skyloft
7. Pilot Wings
8. Duckhunt
9. Halberd

Triplets/Squads
2 Stocks, 6mins.

Legal Stages -

All Stages (Ain't too many selections for this.):

1. Big Battlefield
2. Jungle Hijinxs
3. Ω
   
4. Windy Hill

that's my two cents

 

[ATH_]

I didn't go into much detail before, I should've. I will now.


3DS Online Singles:
2 Stocks, 5 Minutes
Customs Off unless BOTH Players agree to having them on
Items Off
Mii Brawler is banned

Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Battlefield (One unit, this does not include other Omegas)
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Counterpicks:
Prism Tower
Unova Pokemon League
Reset Bomb Forest
Omega Dreamland/Omega Wily Castle (Different layout, seemingly higher south deathbox)

First Game:
Both players pick characters, don't tell the other who they're picking.
Both players use the Starters, ban one each, go to the remaining.

Second Game/Third Game:
Winner selects character, tells the Loser, Loser gives terms on matchups, Winner gets 1 repick, Loser picks character.
Using the full list, both players use 1:2:2:1 to go to a stage with the Loser banning second and last.


That's basically it. Simple enough. Arena Ferox was deemed "not fun" by the group of people, hence it being replaced by Omega Dreamland/Omega Wily Castle. It works well.

 

[Birdlovingbanjo]

In my opinion custom moves and equipment being legal wouldn't be good because some custom moves are much better than others and some equipment could encourage camping like healer badges (players camping waiting for their health to reg while also wasting the 5/6 minute stock matches) or others can be seen as broken in a competitive stand point. Well this is just my opinion if they are legal I don't mind but I would think keeping it default only would be better to an extent.
If there is a thread were they officially ban or accept custom moves just link it to me.

 

[g0rilla]

So is it going to be 2 stocks or 3 stocks?

 

[T0MMY]

You should be asking your local TO that. Right now there's really not going to be a widely recognized standard until at least Apex makes an announcement because it's more than likely a lot of TO's will be imitating that ruleset (for better or worse). Discussions on how to improve the ruleset will most likely commence after that and things will steadily ease into something a little more substantial.

 

[DiscoCokkroach]

Has anyone brought up the use of items in a competitive setting? I think it is a viable option for tournaments.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Has anyone brought up the use of items in a competitive setting? I think it is a viable option for tournaments.

How about the entire thread dedicated to Item Standard Play?

 

[T0MMY]

All that would exist is the original layout and transition of the stage.

When you say "transition" do you mean Stage Transformations and the dynamic movements?

You're right in that the game just is how it is right now. But we're still allowed to complain. In fact, I would say now is the best time to complain with as much attention as Sakurai is giving trying to understand the competitive scene.

There's a natural right to speech, and for better or worse, that includes complaining. But there's much more constructive forms of communication than complaining. Probably a matter of semantics, but I usually see the words like this: Complaints make one a complainer, constructive feedback make one an adviser.

Sakurai is very good at designing games for fun. He's very creative in making interesting effects and variation in how different stages can change how you play based on how the stages mess with you. But the competitive scene doesn't want the stage messing with the players beyond a very minor degree. The outcome of the match needs to be in the players' hands, not the lava that randomly decided to save the guy who just got spiked over the edge or the exploding capsule that spawned in front a player in the middle of charging a forward smash.

I very much agree with you on all points here.
Also taking the opportunity to acknowledge Sarkuai has done a fantastic job balancing his duty to Nintendo wanting a big selling game for a general audience (based on their demographic which includes casual players as well as children and elderly) and a gaming culture that exploded out of the game's depth.
Not sure why he went with an Omega form over a simple hazard toggle, but creativity has its quirks.

Ultimately, even on all those lists you all posted above, compare the total amount of stages available in the game versus the ones that you all deemed competitively viable.

Street Fighter does just fine with just one stage type, so I'm hesitant to agree that more stages means much to depth of competition, if that's the point to look at.

Agree with him or disagree? I'm going to disagree. I'll still play because I love these games even with the incredibly limited options allowed to us. But he could do so much more for us without even bothering the casual scene and with such a simple toggle that he for some reason just doesn't want to do.

Agree with you here as well, and I too will keep playing competitively (as well as casually) because I enjoy the games so much. They might not be your or my vision of the perfect Smash game, but Sakurai's vision is worth paying for over having to direct and produce my own in the same amount of time X^]

 

[ATH_]

So, just gonna paste this real quick for referrence. This is what my online tourney friends came up with.

Spoiler: Wii U Ruleset

IN GAME RULES:
3 Stocks, 8 Minutes on Timer, No Customs, No Items
Mii Brawler is banned

MATCH SETUP
Stagelist (11):
Starters (7):
1.Battlefield
2.Final Destination (Not omegas)
3.Smashville
4.Lylat Cruise
5.Wuhu Island
6.Town and City
7. Halberd
Counterpicks (4):
8.Duck Hunt
9.Skyloft
10.Delfino Plaza
11.Kongo Jungle 64 (really fun, wow)

First Game:
Both Players pick characters, then during Stage Select tell the opponent their character.
During Stage Select, both players use the normal Stage Striking method (1:2:2:1) on the Starters and go to the remaining stage.
Both players pick the remaining stage in it's non-omega form. (Unless it's Omega FD for the lolz)

Second Game:
Winner picks first, Winner tells Loser their character. Loser picks character, Loser tells Winner. Winner gets 1 repick. Loser picks.
During Stage Select, the Winner strikes and Loser both strike 3 stages each. Then the Loser picks of the remaining 5.

Third Game:
Winner picks first, Winner tells Loser their character. Loser picks character, Loser tells Winner. Winner gets 1 repick. Loser picks.
During Stage Select, the Winner strikes 2 stages of the remaining 5. Loser picks of the remaining 3.

I will say, there definitely is more stages that are viable, however, I think 11 is more than enough variety. We got rid of Omega stages due to the grass affecting the distance of sliding, and generally the different layouts.

 

[T0MMY]

So, just gonna paste this real quick for referrence. This is what my online tourney friends came up with.

IN GAME RULES:
3 Stocks, 8 Minutes on Timer, No Customs, No Items
Mii Brawler is banned

Stopped reading there. Banning a character that is not reasonably ban-worthy sets off warning bells in the Competitive Community. How are you going to address the reasoning behind the ban?

 

[ATH_]

Stopped reading there. Banning a character that is not reasonably ban-worthy sets off warning bells in the Competitive Community. How are you going to address the reasoning behind the ban?

Oh, sorry if there was a misunderstanding, this was what THEY came up with. I posted it as a referrence for others to see what's being accepted in some places. Their reasoning was something about some of his alts. Also that at KTAR11 he was banned. Something like that.

I personally would just say that only vanilla Miis would be used, just to make it easier. Since with the alt moves, you won't know what they have prior. Ya know? I'd rather you continue reading as, I think it's pretty reasonable as it goes.

 

[T0MMY]

Oh, sorry if there was a misunderstanding, this was what THEY came up with. I posted it as a referrence for others to see what's being accepted in some places. Their reasoning was something about some of his alts. Also that at KTAR11 he was banned. Something like that.

I personally would just say that only vanilla Miis would be used, just to make it easier. Since with the alt moves, you won't know what they have prior. Ya know? I'd rather you continue reading as, I think it's pretty reasonable as it goes.

Ah, well, they really need to address a character ban. Character bans are pretty much non-existent in this community, and that is given the utter ridiculous strength of Meta Knight (only character to ever be banned to a reasonable degree), so that rule just made me go "whoa, hey, what??" and immediately post a reply asking why.

And, no, Brawler was not banned at KTAR XI. All Mii were allowed but no uploads of Mii were allowed since it was the first Wii U tourney and wanted to try to keep everything as basic as possible.

Edit: Just realized the language used "in-game rules" and how ironic it is that the ruling is actually an out-of-game rule (the game in itself does not ban Mii Brawler)... real funny guys, just saying it's in-game doesn't make it such.
It's like those cereals that say "100% Natural!" and you realize there's nothing but synthetic and artificial ingredients listed in that long ingredient label. X^D