Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[infomon]

I'm might be with Hippieslayer on this one. Nothing personal here, but infzy's philosophy is against a ruleset at all, since the game already have rules. The best smash player is the one who win a (lot of) tournament with 4man FFA, items and all stages, like sakurai want us to play the game (well, maybe not anymore, because of For Glory i think). I'm maybe borderline and ironical on this one, but the game is competively suposed to be played on FD stages, according to the devs. For Glory IS the initial design of competitive smash !

No.

Like I said in my post, there are some adjustments we have to make in order to allow for competition. With the game's default rules, the winner of a match does not tell you who the best player is. Maybe after many many matches the ridiculous random variance induced by items will average out to tell you the best player, but that's infeasible for tournaments. The optimal strategy in a 4-player FFA is degenerate, which also adds a high degree of variance to the outcome (i.e. you would need many matches to develop a good sense of confidence about who the best player is).

That's why we need to make some minimum set of modifications; it's a ruleset that allows us to compete. That's also why we need to ban certain stages.

That's according to the philosophy I proposed, anyway. Not everyone will accept it, and some decisions smashers tend to make (e.g. team-attack off in doubles) aren't easily justified by that philosophy alone. It's just IMO a reasonable approach to ruleset decision-making that favours tournament-validity and inclusiveness (to the "unknown" masses of players of the game who might not (yet) be part fo the tournament scene), over the particular preferences or whims of the people who happen to be vocal about tournaments right now.

I sure think that everthings not ban worthy shouldn't, but let's take a example : What if nobody want to play on a specific legal stage ? Should it still be in, although nobody giving a damn about it ?

It would still be legal, and nobody would happen to pick it. Until someone does. It costs nothing to be included in the valid stage-list. It costs something to ban it (limiting player choice / the metagame, possibly affecting character balance down the road, disenfranchising people who do like that stage or perform well there, etc.)

 

[Deva]

This is just a thought, but Sakurai has basically stated he did what he could to make this game noncompetitive within reason. He also gave us a badge system and other customization options so that we as players would have some degree of balancing our own competitive scene. Most the the discussion has been whether or not to allow players to choose their own badges.

Granted, what I'm suggesting would be an awful amount of work for the SBR, but why not have badge standards for each character that will be patched by the SBR based on touranment performance. For kicks and giggles let's say that what a lot of high level players have noticed is that Diddy is just too damn fast and it allows him to combo into his bananas far too easily. The SBR creates a specific stat range for diddy players to use in tournaments that overall gives him a net loss in speed of anywhere from 20-30, since badges have random stats and its near impossible for every player to have an exact number of speed, power, and defense, but a stat range within reason to the effect that it wouldn't hamper gameplay as long as the stats are within a range sanctioned by the SBR.

It would take a lot of time, tournament stats, and effort by the SBR to make something like this come to fruition, but the way I look at it, any good competitive game will have balance patches based on player performance and input. That's not something Sakurai wants beyond the balance of fun in a party game, but he's given us as players the power to balance it on our own if we take that extra step.


Also on a side note, Smooth lander badge on heavy gravity special smash. Check it out. Fast paced, great combos, equal shield pressure with no landing lag for safer options to match the lack of shield stun in this game vs other smash games.

 

[Deva]

lag made a double post, my apologies.

 

[infomon]

@ Deva , it's a cute idea but that would be chaos. Nobody would agree about what mods achieve balance. Different regions would have their own customizations, meaning that you can't travel for tournaments because we'd all be playing different variations of the game. No unity means no major tournaments. And the scene's growth is limited because the millions of people that are outside of the tournament scene would have a difficult time getting into tournament play because the tournaments would be running a different game than the one they're familiar with.

Also, the characters we think are "too good" right now may well turn out to be inferior later on, but if we patch them downwards now we might never figure that out. We'd just be whiny scrubs arbitrarily nerfing things (largely out of popularity) instead of just getting better and overcoming the obstacles.

 

[Morbi]

This is just a thought, but Sakurai has basically stated he did what he could to make this game noncompetitive within reason. He also gave us a badge system and other customization options so that we as players would have some degree of balancing our own competitive scene. Most the the discussion has been whether or not to allow players to choose their own badges.

Granted, what I'm suggesting would be an awful amount of work for the SBR, but why not have badge standards for each character that will be patched by the SBR based on touranment performance. For kicks and giggles let's say that what a lot of high level players have noticed is that Diddy is just too damn fast and it allows him to combo into his bananas far too easily. The SBR creates a specific stat range for diddy players to use in tournaments that overall gives him a net loss in speed of anywhere from 20-30, since badges have random stats and its near impossible for every player to have an exact number of speed, power, and defense, but a stat range within reason to the effect that it wouldn't hamper gameplay as long as the stats are within a range sanctioned by the SBR.

It would take a lot of time, tournament stats, and effort by the SBR to make something like this come to fruition, but the way I look at it, any good competitive game will have balance patches based on player performance and input. That's not something Sakurai wants beyond the balance of fun in a party game, but he's given us as players the power to balance it on our own if we take that extra step.


Also on a side note, Smooth lander badge on heavy gravity special smash. Check it out. Fast paced, great combos, equal shield pressure with no landing lag for safer options to match the lack of shield stun in this game vs other smash games.

The competitive scene values "fairness" and consistency above all else; therefore, it is doubtful that we could come to a reasonable yet agreeable stat range that influences much to even make a difference. It would not be "fair" to ask Diddy mains to deal with a 20-30 speed nerf. It would have to be a set number otherwise you run the issue of them having to play a game with a -20 speed badge and the next (on a different set-up) with a -30. If the player lost, they could always assert that the difference between games threw them off or something to that effect. It might actually be true too. Albeit, all Wii U consoles could use the same 3DS to transfer equipment. I am not really sure how significant the badges effects are though, I never tried them.

 

[Deva]

@ infomon that's the point of the SBR though. They create standards for tournaments, rulesets, etc. It would be within reason to create specific stat sets for characters based on performance and community input. Although everyone would have a different input, it would be their responsibility to create and enforce that ruleset, and the players to follow it.

Although nerfing a character at some point may make it difficult to realize if they never needed the nerf due to a progressing meta, look at any competitive game in general, not even fighting games. Take League of Legends for example. Characters are continuously patched. Nerfed, buffed, until a medium is reached the player base is happy with, granted, even then, later on, the community may realize due to a progressing meta the character will still need changes, or reversals. That's progress in a competitive game. It's not just one badge setup for a character and that's that. The SBR would have to continually analyze stats and rebalance them in an ever progressing meta.

I agree that creating a required stat set for characters in competitive play would make it more difficult for players to get into the competitive scene. At the same time however, it's the force that drives one to join the competitive scene. When I first got into competitive melee years ago, it was a completely different game from the one I thought I was good at with my friends. I had to learn a completely new set of advanced techniques that rewrote how I played the game. It wasn't easy by any means, but I did it anyways because I had a drive to play the game competitively and be recognized by a community of players who also played it competitively. In many cases when someone wants to play a game competitively, they want the opportunity to be recognized by a large player base and show that they as a player are better than the next. If a player dislikes the stat requirements, they're free to continue playing the game casually, or competitively among friends with whatever ruleset they desire. But if a player truly desires to compete at the highest level, no matter what the rules or requirements, they'll make the effort to be recognized by the competitive smash community, and do so by the rules and regulations they have in place.

Also @MorbidAltruism, the stat range was just an example. If needed for the sake of fairness, an exact number in stats could be enforced. It would just take a lot longer for players to farm for specific badges with the stats needed for competitive play. Also, it wouldnt be based on Diddy players coming to agreement, it would be based on tournament performance of Diddy (again, just using this character as a hypothetical example) and input of high level players for the SBR to make their decision.

 

[Reaperfan]

So random question, and if it's been asked before I apologize, but since it's about rules and processes I guess I'll ask it here:

What do we do in the hypothetical situation where two players who prefer to use the Wii U Gamepad as their controller are set to play each other?

As far as I know, it's still only possible to use one Gamepad per system, but if you can't accommodate both you're putting one person at a disadvantage. Even if you say they both have to use a different controller as a sort of "equal disadvantage" that still doesn't feel right...

 

[BestTeaMaker]

So random question, and if it's been asked before I apologize, but since it's about rules and processes I guess I'll ask it here:

What do we do in the hypothetical situation where two players who prefer to use the Wii U Gamepad as their controller are set to play each other?

As far as I know, it's still only possible to use one Gamepad per system, but if you can't accommodate both you're putting one person at a disadvantage. Even if you say they both have to use a different controller as a sort of "equal disadvantage" that still doesn't feel right...

So, fun fact. Gamepad and Wii U Pro Controller have the same button layouts. Really the only difference there is the space in between where a screen is on the Gameplad.

But honestly, this is the sort of thing you would have to put in your ruleset. You would also need to put a caveat on using wireless controllers because in a space with a good number of Wii Us and other wireless devices, many bad signal-related things could spring up. Probably have a time-period in setting up wireless controls is important.

Although, honestly, I can't think of competitive players who would prefer a wireless connection over a wired. The lag input is real.

 

[T0MMY]

So random question, and if it's been asked before I apologize, but since it's about rules and processes I guess I'll ask it here:

What do we do in the hypothetical situation where two players who prefer to use the Wii U Gamepad as their controller are set to play each other?

As far as I know the only ruleset that addresses that question is:

Competitive Standard Ruleset

Any disagreements by players as to how to gain some kind of "advantage" that cannot be mitigated must be decided by coin-flip.
That is from my ruleset I crafted. I suggested that players using the Gamepad also spend sufficient time with an alternate controller in case they cannot be accommodated (it really doesn't take that long to learn a different controller and is inexcusable to not have a backup in a competitive tournament).

I made sure to include an answer to every situation I've run across in my near decade-long career as a tournament host (I do this as a profession now as well). If there is something I come across that cannot be addressed in my rules than I'll add it in - the ruleset linked is more of a "light" version as there are more extensive rulings for TO's I've crafted but did not want to be too onerous for the audience here.

 

[Jaxas]

As far as I know the only ruleset that addresses that question is:
Competitive Standard Ruleset

Any disagreements by players as to how to gain some kind of "advantage" that cannot be mitigated must be decided by coin-flip.
That is from my ruleset I crafted. I suggested that players using the Gamepad also spend sufficient time with an alternate controller in case they cannot be accommodated (it really doesn't take that long to learn a different controller and is inexcusable to not have a backup in a competitive tournament).

I made sure to include an answer to every situation I've run across in my near decade-long career as a tournament host (I do this as a profession now as well). If there is something I come across that cannot be addressed in my rules than I'll add it in - the ruleset linked is more of a "light" version as there are more extensive rulings for TO's I've crafted but did not want to be too onerous for the audience here.

Why would you not simply ban the use of the Gamepad (which additionally makes it a bit less likely to be stolen/broken, which is important for an expensive piece of hardware like that)?
Everyone should be aware of the fact that you can only use 1 gamepad per system, so if someone practices exclusively with the gamepad then they're just as at fault as if they only practiced on Pac-Land or only ever practiced time matches.

 

[Pazx]

Why would you not simply ban the use of the Gamepad (which additionally makes it a bit less likely to be stolen/broken, which is important for an expensive piece of hardware like that)?
Everyone should be aware of the fact that you can only use 1 gamepad per system, so if someone practices exclusively with the gamepad then they're just as at fault as if they only practiced on Pac-Land or only ever practiced time matches.

Most, if not all tourneys are BYOC. I can't see the gamepad being allowed at all.

 

[T0MMY]

Why would you not simply ban the use of the Gamepad (which additionally makes it a bit less likely to be stolen/broken, which is important for an expensive piece of hardware like that)?

There's no reason to limit attendees unnecessarily, but accommodations have to be made for everyone or there is no game to play. As such, the stronger solution is to not enforce a ban but to make it known the stipulations relating to the niche situations regarding them (hardware limitations).
Now the theoretical ONE guy that uses a Gamepad doesn't get screwed over X^D
It's their fault if they get their controller stolen, I make sure to let it be known (in writing and announcement) that I am not responsible for any theft or damage of the attendee's items and possessions as well as bodily harm. Grassroots tourneys simply don't pay enough to cover insurance ([ > >]

Most, if not all tourneys are BYOC. I can't see the gamepad being allowed at all.

Not sure why this sounds so contradictory. BYOC = Bring Your Own Controller, yes? If someone brings their own Gamepad then a BYOC sounds like it would allow whatever you bring unless stated otherwise... (confused)

 

[Jaxas]

There's no reason to limit attendees unnecessarily, but accommodations have to be made for everyone or there is no game to play. As such, the stronger solution is to not enforce a ban but to make it known the stipulations relating to the niche situations regarding them (hardware limitations).
Now the theoretical ONE guy that uses a Gamepad doesn't get screwed over X^D
It's their fault if they get their controller stolen, I make sure to let it be known (in writing and announcement) that I am not responsible for any theft or damage of the attendee's items and possessions as well as bodily harm. Grassroots tourneys simply don't pay enough to cover insurance ([ > >]

The theoretical one guy doesn't get screwed over anyways unless there are two guys who use them. This is the same logic as players being forced to deal with port priority; the hardware does not allow for players to both be plugged into slot 1, so people have to deal with port priority rulings. By the same logic, the Wii U does not allow more than one Gamepad plugged in at all, so people will likely have to deal with not being able to use the Gamepad.

Not sure why this sounds so contradictory. BYOC = Bring Your Own Controller, yes? If someone brings their own Gamepad then a BYOC sounds like it would allow whatever you bring unless stated otherwise... (confused)

If both players bring their own controller, and they both bring Gamepads, then there's a problem as you can't both use your own controller.

 

[T0MMY]

The theoretical one guy doesn't get screwed over anyways unless there are two guys who use them.

I meant if the TO just bans Gamepads altogether he'll be screwed over.
The theoretical "one guy" represents that nobody really uses the controller in tourney and banning it doesn't do anything for him nor any other attendee.

If both players bring their own controller, and they both bring Gamepads, then there's a problem as you can't both use your own controller.

Yeah, solution is a coinflip & best of luck who doesn't get that controller (this should be in the rules for fair warning).

 

[xquqx]

Yeah, solution is a coinflip & best of luck who doesn't get that controller (this should be in the rules for fair warning).

Either way though, if someone who brought a gamepad suddenly doesn't get to use it, then they'll need another controller that they probably didn't bring. This doesn't solve the issue of BYOC and gamepads.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Either way though, if someone who brought a gamepad suddenly doesn't get to use it, then they'll need another controller that they probably didn't bring. This doesn't solve the issue of BYOC and gamepads.

Given the limitations of a gamepad (one per system) and how expensive they are to replace (afaik they aren't sold by themselves yet, you have to buy a whole Wii U), I'd seriously consider banning them entirely as a control scheme. Just seems like more hassle than they're worth.

 

[Osirun]

I agree with ParanoidDrone. Gamepads should not be usable because if only one player can use it on any given system, there will forever be the chance that two gamepad players will meet and one will be at a disadvantage. Instead, by banning gamepads, TOs will effectively force gamepad only players to migrate to an alternative control scheme. Therefore they will never have to encounter such a gamepad-centric disadvantage. It is no different, to me, then telling players what stages they are allowed to choose to play on.
No sense in practicing on a banned stage. No sense in practicing using a banned control scheme.

 

[Wobz]

I've been playing smash Wii U and I've been playing around with knockback ratio and the stock count and I have found (in order) 3 stock knockback ratio 1.1 and 4 stock knockback ratio 1.2 to work very well
3 stock, 1.1 works very well and does not take as long as a 2 stock or 4 stock match on 1.0. It allows for some easier kills as well and is more exciting and also allows more room for a mistake than a regular 2 stock match

 

[Conda]

Began a poll here for the 2 stock versus 3 stock debate. We don't need a thread to discuss one part of the ruleset. But a poll is interesting, so I'd like people here (who are discussing rules in general) to provide their input. Thread-reliant polls are skewed because their sample size = the people who want to read that thread.

https://plus.google.com/113677833770074358574/posts/guaexSDT7Rd

 

[Conda]

The concept of using equipment to balance the characters ourselves is an interesting one. It throws developer balance out the window, sure, but that's not a bad thing is a good team of people are in charge of deciding what the tweaks should be. This decision is a reaction that kind of likens itself to Project M. Except it's not modding and it's built in, and thus much easier for many people to accept.

It could fall prey to lack of quality balancing ideas, however. The idea that we would be so much better at balancing the game is an egotistical one, and one that we have to be careful with going forward as we could end up with a Project M situation.

But, if done right (which is a big IF), I could easily see people say this:

"When people play Smash competitively, they use equipment to balance the characters. Since, you know, it's also a party game and the balance isn't perfect. Makes sense."


A more elegant solution of sorts than many other ideas put forth by people.

 

[Deva]

The concept of using equipment to balance the characters ourselves is an interesting one. It throws developer balance out the window, sure, but that's not a bad thing is a good team of people are in charge of deciding what the tweaks should be. This decision is a reaction that kind of likens itself to Project M. Except it's not modding and it's built in, and thus much easier for many people to accept.

It could fall prey to lack of quality balancing ideas, however. The idea that we would be so much better at balancing the game is an egotistical one, and one that we have to be careful with going forward as we could end up with a Project M situation.

But, if done right (which is a big IF), I could easily see people say this:

"When people play Smash competitively, they use equipment to balance the characters. Since, you know, it's also a party game and the balance isn't perfect. Makes sense."


A more elegant solution of sorts than many other ideas put forth by people.

I couldn't agree more. It would be a lengthy process, but as long as it's decided by members of the SBR with heavy input from top players in various matchups, it can only create a more healthy meta. More so for less played characters than what is perceived to be the top tier or imbalanced characters.

If for example Marth is rarely played in tournaments and has been consistently sitting in bottom tier, the SBR would give him a buff based on what top players have suggested. For example from what I can see, a decent boost in speed badges allows him to regain most of his combo system from brawl and reduce the landing lag of his aerials so that they would be viable again in competitive play.

 

[Conda]

The issue is how can everyone practice from home on their home console with the same exact stats. Not to mention the power given to those who decide how to essentially 'patch' the characters.

 

[Deva]

@ Conda , that's why I suggested a stat range since its somewhat unrealistic to have specific stats since every badge is different. As long as its within a range of about 10 of the suggested stat, it wouldnt drastically affect the playability of the character from one badge to the next, granted it would require testing.

As far as power to those who decide these stats, it would have to be done in the SBR by a group similar to the ones who decide the tier list, if not the same group. The decisions would have to be based on tournament performance of characters, input by high level/ top players who have access to the SBR, and lack of use of characters in the competitive scene. The most difficult part will most likely be buffing characters rarely played in the tournament scene, since the input from top level players would be limited.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every single character will need balance changes. It's mostly if a character is seen as unplayable by higher level players, mostly low or bottom tier. Nerfs would specifically be targeted towards only the top or S tier characters, bringing the cast as close as possible to a mid tier balance. There will always be a handful of characters that outshine the rest no matter how well you balance a game, but what's important is the margin that they outshine the cast by. The goal is to make every character playable, and viable in competitive play.

Finally, as far as practicing at home, unless the SBR creates a buff or nerf based on a defense increase or decrease for a character, the only stat ranges from badges you would need for practice are the ones for characters YOU play. The defense stat affects a characters weight, and therefor, potential comboability by the characters that you play. In theory you would only need badges for the characters you play, and characters who have defense stat changes if you want to practice comboing them.

 

[Thinkaman]

Other issues aside, we don't have anywhere near the Word-of-God or distribution network to make this possible. Even an entity 10x as powerful and respected as the BBR could not do this.

And you guys are aware that there currently is no Smash 4 Back Room, right?

 

[Deva]

Other issues aside, we don't have anywhere near the Word-of-God or distribution network to make this possible. Even an entity 10x as powerful and respected as the BBR could not do this.

And you guys are aware that there currently is no Smash 4 Back Room, right?

Well, it's not unreasonable to think that a smash 4 back room won't be created. How else will a tier list come about among other things? Also I don't see how you find this so difficult to achieve. There's no need for a distribution network. It wouldn't be all that different from creating a tier list. In fact, the tier list itself would play a huge role in the balancing of stats. All it would require is a link in the Smash 4 Rule set to the most recently updated "balance patch" of stats to be used for each character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, it's not unreasonable to think that a smash 4 back room won't be created. How else will a tier list come about among other things? Also I don't see how you find this so difficult to achieve. There's no need for a distribution network. It wouldn't be all that different from creating a tier list. In fact, the tier list itself would play a huge role in the balancing of stats. All it would require is a link in the Smash 4 Rule set to the most recently updated "balance patch" of stats to be used for each character.

Let's just say I speak from experience.

 

[Terotrous]

The concept of using equipment to balance the characters ourselves is an interesting one. It throws developer balance out the window, sure, but that's not a bad thing is a good team of people are in charge of deciding what the tweaks should be. This decision is a reaction that kind of likens itself to Project M. Except it's not modding and it's built in, and thus much easier for many people to accept.

It's also fundamentally impossible to implement, since you would likely need exact pieces of equipment and they drop randomly. Need to find a +21 -35 smooth lander agility badge for Charizard to meet the standard? Good luck with that. Also, no one would ever agree on what values to use.

The flexibility provided by the stat system may be useful for future hackers to create some kind of "Smash 4 Plus" type mod, but for now it's just a silly pipe dream.

 

[Wobz]

@ Conda , that's why I suggested a stat range since its somewhat unrealistic to have specific stats since every badge is different. As long as its within a range of about 10 of the suggested stat, it wouldnt drastically affect the playability of the character from one badge to the next, granted it would require testing.

As far as power to those who decide these stats, it would have to be done in the SBR by a group similar to the ones who decide the tier list, if not the same group. The decisions would have to be based on tournament performance of characters, input by high level/ top players who have access to the SBR, and lack of use of characters in the competitive scene. The most difficult part will most likely be buffing characters rarely played in the tournament scene, since the input from top level players would be limited.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every single character will need balance changes. It's mostly if a character is seen as unplayable by higher level players, mostly low or bottom tier. Nerfs would specifically be targeted towards only the top or S tier characters, bringing the cast as close as possible to a mid tier balance. There will always be a handful of characters that outshine the rest no matter how well you balance a game, but what's important is the margin that they outshine the cast by. The goal is to make every character playable, and viable in competitive play.

Finally, as far as practicing at home, unless the SBR creates a buff or nerf based on a defense increase or decrease for a character, the only stat ranges from badges you would need for practice are the ones for characters YOU play. The defense stat affects a characters weight, and therefor, potential comboability by the characters that you play. In theory you would only need badges for the characters you play, and characters who have defense stat changes if you want to practice comboing them.

Yeah someone should make a stat page, we the community can make OUR OWN meta, and take vote

 

[Wobz]

Began a poll here for the 2 stock versus 3 stock debate. We don't need a thread to discuss one part of the ruleset. But a poll is interesting, so I'd like people here (who are discussing rules in general) to provide their input. Thread-reliant polls are skewed because their sample size = the people who want to read that thread.

https://plus.google.com/113677833770074358574/posts/guaexSDT7Rd

If we make every character faster, give them smooth landing, (which will increase atk and lower def and get rid of landing lag) 3 stock should be good. Following this most of the roster will have around +15 atk and -15 def and +20 speed. So the game will run faster and it will be easier to KO. But of course we can change this for some characters to balance things which is why the community should vote on character changes

EDIT: sorry about the double post

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah someone should make a stat page, we the community can make OUR OWN meta

You can do that already. Customize some characters on your Wii U, invite some buds over, get a big bag of Ruffles and 2L pop, and have a blast. Presto, instant local metagame.

I honestly don't ever see equipment going beyond funsies, but no one should feel like the way they play the game in their own time is restricted by the competitive ruleset.

 

[Deva]

It's also fundamentally impossible to implement, since you would likely need exact pieces of equipment and they drop randomly. Need to find a +21 -35 smooth lander agility badge for Charizard to meet the standard? Good luck with that. Also, no one would ever agree on what values to use.

The flexibility provided by the stat system may be useful for future hackers to create some kind of "Smash 4 Plus" type mod, but for now it's just a silly pipe dream.

Thats why I keep suggesting it to be a stat range, since yes, it would be difficult to get an exact piece of equipment with exact stats. As far as no one agreeing to the values, that's tough luck. When a tier list is made by the SBR, people don't have to agree with it, that's what it is. When tournament rule sets are created, same thing. It would be a set of stats to be used by certain characters determined by tournament results and input from high/ top level players, basically how a tier list is created.

Let's just say I speak from experience.

I don't think you're completely understanding the statement being made, as there is no need for a distribution network beyond posting the latest patched stats in the most current rule set.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Deva you are highly overestimating the power of the SBR. Go back and look how well their recommended ruleset went. Not only were the stage suggestions 100% ignored but every basic rule suggestion? Also ignored. The SBr will NEVER be able to enforce a ruleset and probably wouldn't want to.

 

[Terotrous]

Thats why I keep suggesting it to be a stat range, since yes, it would be difficult to get an exact piece of equipment with exact stats. As far as no one agreeing to the values, that's tough luck. When a tier list is made by the SBR, people don't have to agree with it, that's what it is.

Uhh, but the tier list doesn't say "you HAVE to play these characters". When someone is proposing a character ban, (or some other similarly major change), it's MUCH harder for that to find acceptance. Look at what happened with MK in Brawl, it heavily fractured the community even though there was like a 99.9% consensus that MK was super broken.

When tournament rule sets are created, same thing. It would be a set of stats to be used by certain characters determined by tournament results and input from high/ top level players, basically how a tier list is created.

And you think there would ever be anything resembling a consensus about this? This game has been out for like 4 months and we can't even agree on 2 stock vs 3 stock!

 

[Wobz]

I gave every character the smooth landing badge and agility badge and super agility badge and the result is +55 speed +5 attack and -35 defense. You don't need this exact but within a range of 10 because anything lower won't really affect anything. Then i play in heavy gravity mode in special smash and it plays JUST like melee speed wise and combo wise too surprisingly
only downside is you have to react quick when falling off the ledge because you can easily fast fall and die

 

[Terotrous]

I gave every character the smooth landing badge and agility badge and super agility badge and the result is +55 speed +5 attack and -35 defense. You don't need this exact but within a range of 10 because anything lower won't really affect anything. Then i play in heavy gravity mode in special smash and it plays JUST like melee speed wise and combo wise too surprisingly
only downside is you have to react quick when falling off the ledge because you can easily fast fall and die

And the beauty of the game is you can play it that way if you like, though I suspect it would likely prove to be super broken at high levels since the game was never balanced around those settings.

 

[Wobz]

And the beauty of the game is you can play it that way if you like, though I suspect it would likely prove to be super broken at high levels since the game was never balanced around those settings.

If you give a character +70 in every stat then yes xD
but yeah you're right you can play the game however you want. If you enjoy fast matches than you can use the rules I just suggested, but if you like slower play use the regular stuff. You can customize it however you want :D

 

[LiteralGrill]

But when it comes to a tournament standard, that liberty is not always so easy. You are telling thousands up thousands of people how to play.

And the majority are going to be playing on base Smash 4 and will be very turned off if we introduce something so foreign into the standard.

 

[Thinkaman]

But when it comes to a tournament standard, that liberty is not always so easy. You are telling thousands up thousands of people how to play.

Actually, it'd be telling thousands of people how to tell thousands of people how to play, which is a couple magnitudes harder.

 

[Deva]

Well when it comes down to it, everyone will play the game how they want to. TOs will run their tournaments how they want to, regardless of the rule sets created by the SBR. However, when top players would attend said tournaments, they would generally try and only attend the major tournaments that played by those set rules, and even more so, if it was a major tournament, it was likely to adhere to those standards regardless.

It would honestly be sad not to take advantage of this system to patch and balance this game for competitive play, especially when that sort of balance wasn't even in mind with the creation of the game, and is highly unlikely that such patches will ever be implemented by nintendo towards competitive play.

Also, Heavy Gravity with Smooth Lander is amazing. If there was any way to make this tournament standard I would be all for it. landing lag is more similar to smash 64 than melee L-cancel, but that works out better because of how broken the shields are in this game. The lack of landing lag goes well with the lack of shield stun, giving players equal opportunity to defend and punish, not to mention ridiculous combos. As far as playing the game in a way that generally seems more fun competitively and is a lot more enjoyable to watch for an audience, this is definitely the way to go.

 

[Nintendrone]

Well when it comes down to it, everyone will play the game how they want to. TOs will run their tournaments how they want to, regardless of the rule sets created by the SBR. However, when top players would attend said tournaments, they would generally try and only attend the major tournaments that played by those set rules, and even more so, if it was a major tournament, it was likely to adhere to those standards regardless.

It would honestly be sad not to take advantage of this system to patch and balance this game for competitive play, especially when that sort of balance wasn't even in mind with the creation of the game, and is highly unlikely that such patches will ever be implemented by nintendo towards competitive play.

Also, Heavy Gravity with Smooth Lander is amazing. If there was any way to make this tournament standard I would be all for it. landing lag is more similar to smash 64 than melee L-cancel, but that works out better because of how broken the shields are in this game. The lack of landing lag goes well with the lack of shield stun, giving players equal opportunity to defend and punish, not to mention ridiculous combos. As far as playing the game in a way that generally seems more fun competitively and is a lot more enjoyable to watch for an audience, this is definitely the way to go.

Smashboards balancing the game themselves?! You know we can't even agree on 2/3 stock right? You're under the impression that we want this game to be Melee, and we don't. You want specific special rules (that don't exist on 3DS btw) with specific equipment that most people don't have in order for the game to be like Melee, and that this "seems more fun competitively" and "more enjoyable to watch". People don't play/watch Smash 4 for Melee, and those who did have found that if they wanna see Melee, they should play/watch Melee. You're asking thousands of people to accept an arbitrary ruleset change because it's closer to Melee. I feel that this would make the game less popular, as it would be seen as "dumbed down Melee" instead of "vastly improved Brawl sequel", and your rules would alienate many current and new faces.