Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[HeroMystic]

this might not even be an "either or" kind of thing. Groing it as a fighting game will probably result in better numbers both in attendance and viewers.

These are just words reeking of subjectivity, and also assumes Smash 4 is not growing as a fighting game in it's current state.

I'm still looking to see objective reasoning as to why a custom equipment ruleset is better for Smash 4's competitive balance.

 

[Uniit]

Like HeroMystic says, it's far too early to make assumption on game balance or growth/popularity. Sure, Smooth Landing could be a amazing option, but how about letting the game grow by itself ?

 

[Muro]

These are just words reeking of subjectivity, and also assumes Smash 4 is not growing as a fighting game in it's current state.

subjectivity? in what? I can't see the future, I can't predict how this all will end up and tell you with absolute certainty.
we can look at other similar situations and learn some lessons though. Deva pretty much already said what I think on the subject in a more eloquent way than I ever could, so go back and reread.

We can run both rule sets side by side, see which one is better, we lose nothing by keeping options open.

I'm still looking to see objective reasoning as to why a custom equipment ruleset is better for Smash 4's competitive balance.

because it's made to be. It is (or would be) purposefully designed to be better for competitive balance. I do however have little faith in the SBR being able to do something like what Deva is suggesting. But it's not a question of "would it be better", it's better by design.

 

[Funen1]

because it's made to be. It is (or would be) purposefully designed to be better for competitive balance. I do however have little faith in the SBR being able to do something like what Deva is suggesting. But it's not a question of "would it be better", it's better by design.

But why is it better by design? Why is it so much better that it makes someone think Smash 4 in its current state needs such a drastic change? That is the question I ask. Your response here amounts to saying "it just is".

 

[Muro]

But why is it better by design? Why is it so much better that it makes someone think Smash 4 in its current state needs such a drastic change? That is the question I ask. Your response here amounts to saying "it just is".

look, you have the base game. Then you can influence the base game by playing around with equipment. You can tweak the stats and effects and whatever by changing between different equipment. You then have a group of competent players going through the items looking for a combination that helps the game.

What is the worst case scenario? they find out none of the equipment actually helps and you end up with the base game right?

If they find even 1 piece of equipment that actually helps the metagame, that is already better than the base game. That's why I say that it's better by design, Your worst case scenario by doing this is the same we already have, but most likely you'll end up with a better game.

This doesn't mean that you can't like the base game as it is, you absolutely can, but with so many different pieces of equipment effects and stat changes it'd be a major coincidence if that's actually your preferred way to play.

 

[Pyr]

look, you have the base game. Then you can influence the base game by playing around with equipment. You can tweak the stats and effects and whatever by changing between different equipment. You then have a group of competent players going through the items looking for a combination that helps the game.

What is the worst case scenario? they find out none of the equipment actually helps and you end up with the base game right?

If they find even 1 piece of equipment that actually helps the metagame, that is already better than the base game. That's why I say that it's better by design, Your worst case scenario by doing this is the same we already have, but most likely you'll end up with a better game.

This doesn't mean that you can't like the base game as it is, you absolutely can, but with so many different pieces of equipment effects and stat changes it'd be a major coincidence if that's actually your preferred way to play.

You said it might help the metagame. Well, how can it help a Metagame that won't even be 70% developed in 2 years?

The base game (which is what Nintendo will be balancing for btw) should be what's allowed to grow. Anything else should be a side thing or a fun thing, like Minus was. If a small group wants to develop a metagame based on those side things, then go for it. Most players will be playing the base game. As I've said before, Smashboards doesn't represent most of the community at large. We do have to keep in mind players that are not ourselves.

 

[HeroMystic]

look, you have the base game. Then you can influence the base game by playing around with equipment. You can tweak the stats and effects and whatever by changing between different equipment. You then have a group of competent players going through the items looking for a combination that helps the game.

What is the worst case scenario? they find out none of the equipment actually helps and you end up with the base game right?

If they find even 1 piece of equipment that actually helps the metagame, that is already better than the base game. That's why I say that it's better by design, Your worst case scenario by doing this is the same we already have, but most likely you'll end up with a better game.

This doesn't mean that you can't like the base game as it is, you absolutely can, but with so many different pieces of equipment effects and stat changes it'd be a major coincidence if that's actually your preferred way to play.

This doesn't answer the question being presented but more or less confirms what I've initially stated all along.

To note, this is already being done with Custom Specials. The problem, for the most part, is logistics and the community that does not visit Smashboards are fearful of them due to the lack of knowledge. It is fortunate that the majority of people whom experimented with Customs can present the data accumulated by this through videos, frame data, etc., in order to garner more momemtum for this project.

What can this rally for a Custom Equipment ruleset present? Where's the data? Why should we set aside time to develop this when we haven't even began to understand the ins-and-outs of the "base" game? This is why I ask for objective reasoning as to why this should be pursued, and I've rarely seen any outside of "we can balance characters the way we want them", which has alot of valid arguments against that.

 

[Muro]

This is why I ask for objective reasoning as to why this should be pursued, and I've rarely seen any outside of "we can balance characters the way we want them", which has alot of valid arguments against that.

ohhh you've seen them, you've just made up your mind already. No reasoning can make you see it now.

 

[Pyr]

ohhh you've seen them, you've just made up your mind already. No reasoning can make you see it now.

When asked for evidence, you should provide any you have. Else your argument looks weak. I mean, anyone asking for evidence is obviously looking for a possible change in opinion or viewpoint.

If you don't actually the evidence requested, you should go out and get some before you try to push something like this.

 

[Muro]

look in this very thread, in the last couple of pages.

There seems to be a subset of people in these forum who for some reason are completely against any kind of equipment equips.

Normally it's the type of people who:
- Think sakurai is balancing the game with competitive play in mind.
- Think defensive options are not super powerful.
- Think having some events run with a different ruleset is somehow a personal attack on them, because they like to play the base game.

This kind of fanboy get super defensive when people point out shortcomings or ways to improve the game. They sidestep arguments, ignore reason and just generally have their mind set already. They're not looking for a resolution because they already set their mind on the conclusion. There's no convincing them.

Look we all like Smash 4, but it can be better. Like I said, nobody is gonna take the base game away from you, we lose nothing from keeping options open.

 

[Pyr]

look in this very thread, in the last couple of pages.

There seems to be a subset of people in these forum who for some reason are completely against any kind of equipment equips.

Normally it's the type of people who:
- Think sakurai is balancing the game with competitive play in mind.
- Think defensive options are not super powerful.
- Think having some events run with a different ruleset is somehow a personal attack on them, because they like to play the base game.

This kind of fanboy get super defensive when people point out shortcomings or ways to improve the game. They sidestep arguments, ignore reason and just generally have their mind set already. They're not looking for a resolution because they already set their mind on the conclusion. There's no convincing them.

Look we all like Smash 4, but it can be better. Like I said, nobody is gonna take the base game away from you, we lose nothing from keeping options open.

And then there is the side you belong to: The one that says, "We're right, you're wrong, and we refuse to provide any evidence for anything we want to happen." You've been directly asked for any evidence for viability of an idea, a process on how exactly it'd work and be distributed, how it'd affect gameplay, etc. You have none. All this is is wishful thinking until you make it something a bit more. Sure, you like to talk about the possible benefits, but you seem to refuse to actually test it and see if they even exist.

Multiple, massive issues have been presented against this idea. You seem to outright refuse to acknowledge them.

If the people who come up with an idea, or support it, are too lazy to test or implement it, why keep it open as an option when resources can be put into more beneficial areas?

 

[Muro]

I see now I've been trolled. Well played man.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A lot of people have been implementing their ideas, but their names are not sound in the community as "Top" players so their initiative is invalidated.

That's what happened with Custom Moves: Many regions use them, but the main ones (like Tristate) don't, so people listen to those "big" areas.

 

[HeroMystic]

ohhh you've seen them, you've just made up your mind already. No reasoning can make you see it now.

And why do you believe that?

There's a reason why I linked the custom specials thread. It's because I've fully support it. It has been tested in real tournaments, proven they are not broken, and proven they are capable of enhancing the metagame. I'm all for them and I hope we can find a way to make it work.

What makes you believe that I'm not open-minded to Custom Equipment? I actually see as something similar to Pokemon where we would have various "builds" of each character (which I've fooled around with. Speed Builds are the best, Power builds are okay but you die extremely early. Defense builds are worthless. Additional effects are probably what makes this somewhat interesting but they're very unbalanced). It would be cute to fool around with but there are obviously very big issues with this.

All I want some sort of objective reasoning as to how it would enhance the metagame. So far all I've gotten were subjective reasoning (i.e "it makes the game better because it just does"), and strawman arguments (i.e. "Sakurai is anti-competitive", "If you say no you're a Sakurai fanboy"). Neither of which help me understand the desire to implement this outside of the chance that it could be "fun".

So maybe I should ask this in a different way.

What advantages does custom equipment such as Smooth Lander have for Smash 4, in terms of competitive balance and enhancing the metagame?

A lot of people have been implementing their ideas, but their names are not sound in the community as "Top" players so their initiative is invalidated.

That's what happened with Custom Moves: Many regions use them, but the main ones (like Tristate) don't, so people listen to those "big" areas.

Actually, 3DS Smash 4 actually thrived very well on custom moves. The problem is all of our work is not transferable to the Wii U and Nintendo made it ridiculously tedious to gain them without grinding for a long time. Lastly, the UI to apply Custom Specials just sucks, and is in desperate need of streamlining. The biggest problem with Customs have always been the ability to smoothly implement them. Not that what you say is invalid either, but it would be much easier to spread the idea around if Nintendo didn't make this needlessly difficult.

 

[ぱみゅ]

But it *is* transferable. And pretty easy, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_1CyD7fXM

 

[Reaperfan]

What advantages does custom equipment such as Smooth Lander have for Smash 4, in terms of competitive balance and enhancing the metagame?

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I gotta ask...what metagame? As far as I know, one hasn't developed yet for Smash 4. How can we enhance something that doesn't exist?

 

[HeroMystic]

But it *is* transferable. And pretty easy, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_1CyD7fXM

Yes, I've done it before when I first got the game.

It is transferable in the sense that you can send one character build over to a Wii U, but you have to do this over and over again for each build. Now while I do agree it's easy if you carry your own 3DS for your own character build, which I'm perfectly fine with, not everyone has the luxury of having both games, and they would essentially have to hope that the character build is already available on the Wii U (or scour for a player who has the build available on the 3DS).

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I gotta ask...what metagame? As far as I know, one hasn't developed yet for Smash 4. How can we enhance something that doesn't exist?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There is a metagame for Smash 4. What exactly are you looking for that you don't believe exists?

 

[Reaperfan]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There is a metagame for Smash 4. What exactly are you looking for that you don't believe exists?

I mean we haven't solidly developed one yet. We're still very much in the "experimentation and discovery" stage when it comes to understanding Smash 4.

It's also possible I'm simply uninformed, I'll admit. To which I will politely ask that someone fills me in onto what the key features are that define Smash 4's metagame in its current state.

 

[HeroMystic]

I mean we haven't solidly developed one yet. We're still very much in the "experimentation and discovery" stage when it comes to understanding Smash 4.

It's also possible I'm simply uninformed, I'll admit. To which I will politely ask that someone fills me in onto what the key features are that define Smash 4's metagame in its current state.

You're right that our metagame is still in an infant state, but there are still very solid strategies and norms within Smash 4 that will probably stay for the rest of Smash 4's life cycle.

Amazing Amaphros made a solid guide on how defense is not the end-all-be-all of Smash 4 (while it dominated Brawl's meta).
Emblem Lord made a thread on understanding the states of gameplay in Smash 4.
Shaya brings up frame data that committing to shields are more dangerous than originally perceived to be.

And there is a general consensus that there is a "Rock-Paper-Scissors" format in Smash 4 (Shield(Rock) - Grab(Paper) - Attack(Scissors)), which is already implemented in high level play.

A lot of this comes from knowledge of Brawl, Melee, and other fighting games, so we've yet to scratch the surface with Smash 4, but we've already built the solid foundation.

 

[Reaperfan]

You're right that our metagame is still in an infant state, but there are still very solid strategies and norms within Smash 4 that will probably stay for the rest of Smash 4's life cycle.

Amazing Amaphros made a solid guide on how defense is not the end-all-be-all of Smash 4 (while it dominated Brawl's meta).
Emblem Lord made a thread on understanding the states of gameplay in Smash 4.
Shaya brings up frame data that committing to shields are more dangerous than originally perceived to be.

And there is a general consensus that there is a "Rock-Paper-Scissors" format in Smash 4 (Shield(Rock) - Attack(Paper) - Grab(Scissors)), which is already implemented in high level play.

A lot of this comes from knowledge of Brawl, Melee, and other fighting games, so we've yet to scratch the surface with Smash 4, but we've already built the solid foundation.

If I'm being honest, with the exception of the frame data on shields most of that is just explanation of basic concepts. Rocks/Paper/Scissors and the three states of gameplay are true of any fighting game, even outside of Smash. The defense guide focuses more on Smash-specific positional strategies, but is generally applicable across all Smash titles. These things aren't indications of a metagame for a specific title. As you said yourself, they're universal strategic fundamentals built across a variety of other fighting games that are also applicable to Smash 4. Fundamentals upon which a metagame is built, mind you, but not a metagame in and of itself.

PS: You mixed up Paper and Scissors. If shield is rock, then grab is paper and attack is scissors. Nitpicky and pointless distinction, I know, but it was bothering me.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yes, I've done it before when I first got the game.

It is transferable in the sense that you can send one character build over to a Wii U, but you have to do this over and over again for each build. Now while I do agree it's easy if you carry your own 3DS for your own character build, which I'm perfectly fine with, not everyone has the luxury of having both games, and they would essentially have to hope that the character build is already available on the Wii U (or scour for a player who has the build available on the 3DS).

What is wrong with rewarding a player for owning a game? Furthermore, for investing time to unlock the builds he is willing to use?

 

[Uniit]

It's not wrong to reward a player who own the 3DS version, it's wrong to disavantage player who don't.

Most of my friends don't own a 3DS because the control scheme don't fit for them, and they thinks tournament will take place on the WiiU version. And in that said tournament, they will be told : "Too bad you don't own one, you're going to play vanilla vs custom moves !" ?

So it's pretty obvious to just make custom move available on every WiiU, which will take time. Maybe things like the
Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release can made this easier, and that's all we actually ask.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, this week's Project Smash roundtable topic is bans, touching on many parts of competitive rules.

I encourage everyone to check in at http://smash.menu/roundtable3.html and follow the stream. We can discuss thoughts here after.

Cheers!

 

[chipndip]

A lot of people have been implementing their ideas, but their names are not sound in the community as "Top" players so their initiative is invalidated.

That's what happened with Custom Moves: Many regions use them, but the main ones (like Tristate) don't, so people listen to those "big" areas.

Why use them anyway? It's pretty clear that custom options were for casual play. From their implementation in the game, their inability to use in the game's competitive online mode, and even through Sakurai's quote:

When playing with your personal friends, I think it's probably more interesting that you can almost cheat a little through customizing your character.
I think it's probably more interesting that you can almost cheat a little through customizing your character.

cheat a little through customizing your character.

I mean, I'm no big wig either, but it's PRETTY simple to see what they were intended for: Casual fun, not competitive rebalancing.

 

[thehard]

1. That article was already proven to be mistranslated.
2. If that portion wasn't, that's still an appeal to authority, developer intent obviously doesn't matter in competitive Smash lol. It's good to mirror the original vision as much as possible but I'm sure Sakurai would be delighted to see customs in tournaments seeing as how he created them.
3. The moves have been tested and by all accounts improve the game.

 

[smashmachine]

ok where's that writeup on custom moves being perfectly viable

I know you did it @ Amazing Ampharos

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

ok where's that writeup on custom moves being perfectly viable

I know you did it @ Amazing Ampharos

Indeed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-initial-release.381395/

 

[chipndip]

1. That article was already proven to be mistranslated.
2. If that portion wasn't, that's still an appeal to authority, developer intent obviously doesn't matter in competitive Smash lol. It's good to mirror the original vision as much as possible but I'm sure Sakurai would be delighted to see customs in tournaments seeing as how he created them.
3. The moves have been tested and by all accounts improve the game.

1) The in general gist of what he was saying shouldn't be that far off. May not be entirely 1:1, but the overall direction of the interview and the things said in it shouldn't be as different from the translation as night and day. Otherwise we shouldn't pay attention to any of that interview at all.

2) As a community, you shouldn't be trying to act as a new found authority. You should be trying to provide an ideal environment for competitive play of this franchise. That doesn't mean strictly following FG guidelines per say, but these types of things should be taken into consideration rather than ignored at every turn, only to have issues with stage choice, Mii sizes, and the logistics of custom moves later.

3) Not everyone agrees on custom moves improving the game as a whole on a competitive level. That's just speaking for everyone...>_>

@Above: To suggest supporting the purchase and use of scumbag software like Action Replays is a clear sign that, once-a-freaking-gain, custom moves were never to be used in competitive play in the first place. That's a VERY lowly alternative for the sake of custom moves, and ARs can even damage hardware outright.

Edit: And don't get me entirely wrong, here. When I watching that thread grow, I was wondering if it could be pulled off myself...until I saw ARs being suggested. As fans of this franchise, supporting a product that's been a thorn in Nintendo's backside this whole time is just against my standards.

 

[Pyr]

1) The in general gist of what he was saying shouldn't be that far off. May not be entirely 1:1, but the overall direction of the interview and the things said in it shouldn't be as different from the translation as night and day. Otherwise we shouldn't pay attention to any of that interview at all.

2) As a community, you shouldn't be trying to act as a new found authority. You should be trying to provide an ideal environment for competitive play of this franchise. That doesn't mean strictly following FG guidelines per say, but these types of things should be taken into consideration rather than ignored at every turn, only to have issues with stage choice, Mii sizes, and the logistics of custom moves later.

3) Not everyone agrees on custom moves improving the game as a whole on a competitive level. That's just speaking for everyone...>_>

@Above: To suggest supporting the purchase and use of scumbag software like Action Replays is a clear sign that, once-a-freaking-gain, custom moves were never to be used in competitive play in the first place. That's a VERY lowly alternative for the sake of custom moves, and ARs can even damage hardware outright.

Edit: And don't get me entirely wrong, here. When I watching that thread grow, I was wondering if it could be pulled off myself...until I saw ARs being suggested. As fans of this franchise, supporting a product that's been a thorn in Nintendo's backside this whole time is just against my standards.

1) Considering how easy it is to mistranslate things, and how even the slightest error can change an entire statement, and also the fact that it was Eventhub's (lol) report and they were doing some cherry picking, I'd say that we'd wait and see. Because of that, like you said, we really shouldn't pay attention at all yet.

2) What better time to explore ALL options then when the data-mining and research part of this game is so fresh? Custom Moves have a very high chance of adding a bit of flavor and hype, along with adding a deeper level to a deep game. Implementation should prove trivial eventually, and that's what's holding it back so much.

3) If the polls have been anything to go by, the majority do for now.

And the edit: Lowly? Alright. I'll have a legit set. Honest.
That's a very poor reason. You'll never know who has a legit set and who doesn't. These days, having a few unlockables, that the player can use directly (so this discounts stages), in a fighting game is questionable at best. There are 300+ unlockables here. Color me lazy, but development > unlocking things.

And it's not a clear sign that they are not meant to be used competitively. Method of unlock has no bearing on their use competitively.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

1) The in general gist of what he was saying shouldn't be that far off. May not be entirely 1:1, but the overall direction of the interview and the things said in it shouldn't be as different from the translation as night and day. Otherwise we shouldn't pay attention to any of that interview at all.

2) As a community, you shouldn't be trying to act as a new found authority. You should be trying to provide an ideal environment for competitive play of this franchise. That doesn't mean strictly following FG guidelines per say, but these types of things should be taken into consideration rather than ignored at every turn, only to have issues with stage choice, Mii sizes, and the logistics of custom moves later.

3) Not everyone agrees on custom moves improving the game as a whole on a competitive level. That's just speaking for everyone...>_>

@Above: To suggest supporting the purchase and use of scumbag software like Action Replays is a clear sign that, once-a-freaking-gain, custom moves were never to be used in competitive play in the first place. That's a VERY lowly alternative for the sake of custom moves, and ARs can even damage hardware outright.

Edit: And don't get me entirely wrong, here. When I watching that thread grow, I was wondering if it could be pulled off myself...until I saw ARs being suggested. As fans of this franchise, supporting a product that's been a thorn in Nintendo's backside this whole time is just against my standards.

I have yet to see a serious, well reasoned argument that custom moves do not improve the balance of the game; it's honestly just obvious they do. Thinkaman had a very good write-up pre-release explaining that, mathematically, custom moves were expected to improve the balance. His reasoning was very decisive:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...es-on-gameplay-and-balance-statistics.366457/

The short version is that the expected outcome of customs being in the game, if you know nothing about what the customs actually do, is that they make the balance better since you're taking the best 2/3 and the average outcomes of said best 2/3 per move are a lot better than the average outcomes of best 1/1 if we model it as random.

When we look at what they actually turned out to be, it's pretty much great, probably even better than that projection. Diddy Kong, the clear best character without customs, has the worst set of custom specials in the game. Many low tier characters who are just obviously troubled without customs like Palutena, Ganondorf, Charizard, and Samus gain a ton from the system. So many custom specials give characters specific counters to Luma, and Rosalina really does wreck characters harder than anyone else in the game (while Rosalina's customs might as well be specifically made for her to address her worst match-ups!). Honestly I think they're actually BETTER than Thinkaman's initial analysis suggested they would be expected to be on average; the system is that good. I've heard almost literally nothing but good things about customs from players who have given them a try; as far as I can tell, the anti-custom side just never gave customs a shot in the first place and is just concerned by logistics which is understandable but that's why we've done so much to address those concerns. If they have serious gameplay concerns with customs, they haven't made it clear through their public activity what problems they found.

As per AR, there are two important points to consider:

1. It's not necessary. It's a convenience you can use. The system works 100% fine if you don't. I'm in a lot of ways the architect of this custom logistical thing, and I don't own an AR. Even if you just hate AR, it's not needed.

2. Seriously, what did AR ever do to Nintendo? I seem to recall some industry analysts back in the 90s concluding cheat devices improve the sales of game software, and after that happened, the controversy toward such devices just died. That was very long ago (I was something like 10 when it went down) so I don't exactly have my sources handy, but it really has been that long since I've heard anyone suggest AR is any sort of bad thing for Nintendo and nothing other than the legalese in the back of instruciton manuals has ever suggested these devices can actually damage hardware. What they actually do is fill in the normally blank RAM areas early in the program's execution with code, and writing to RAM is not a dangerous activity for any computer with the only real risk being corrupting save files which is actually not terribly hard to do in a lot of games with the glitches already present and can only really be done by misusing an AR anyway.

When both of those things are considered together, I don't really see the issue.

As per what's intended and traditional FG principles, well, we have to deal with this system anyway as Mii Fighters are characters in this game and at the system must be interacted with to create them (and banning three characters is just insane, obviously not reasonable). Sakurai is always very careful to avoid telling people how to play and is clear he doesn't take part in any tournament activities (he seems to feel it would be improper). Smash is not a game series in which developer intent makes it just obvious how to play like Street Fighter; the community needs to make decisions just as a part of the nature of the game. However, I do think a lot of traditional FG players would be pretty comfortable with customs just like they love assist choices in the Marvel games or grooves in CvS2 as it's a lot of the same sort of thinking. I honestly find traditional FG players tend to be a lot more ruleset "liberal" than a typical smash player as they feel like if it's in the game it deserves a shot at being used; sometimes they even go way too far like EVO 2008 Brawl with items, but I'm pretty confident in saying that traditional FG principles would have customs on and turning them off is going the other way.

 

[chipndip]

1) Considering how easy it is to mistranslate things, and how even the slightest error can change an entire statement, and also the fact that it was Eventhub's (lol) report and they were doing some cherry picking, I'd say that we'd wait and see. Because of that, like you said, we really shouldn't pay attention at all yet.

2) What better time to explore ALL options then when the data-mining and research part of this game is so fresh? Custom Moves have a very high chance of adding a bit of flavor and hype, along with adding a deeper level to a deep game. Implementation should prove trivial eventually, and that's what's holding it back so much.

3) If the polls have been anything to go by, the majority do for now.

And the edit: Lowly? Alright. I'll have a legit set. Honest.
That's a very poor reason. You'll never know who has a legit set and who doesn't. These days, having a few unlockables, that the player can use directly (so this discounts stages), in a fighting game is questionable at best. There are 300+ unlockables here. Color me lazy, but development > unlocking things.

And it's not a clear sign that they are not meant to be used competitively. Method of unlock has no bearing on their use competitively.

1) I guarantee you that they wouldn't be so dumb as to do such faulty work. Not THAT dumb anyway. Human error is one thing, but to 100% dismiss a report because there might be *some* mis-translation isn't very wise.

2) Exploring options is one thing, but this option is literally like trying to drive a circle into a square hole. It's more than obvious that custom equipment and moves are like the "Omega Mode" for Smash Bros 4, like USFIV's Omega Mode. Only difference is that for some reason, this community is trying to...implement it...which is relatively daffy when you step back and look at the whole picture.

3) Majority in this forum =/= majority of people playing the game at all. I was surprised when I went to the event in Houston and found a good deal of people supporting the removal of custom moves, 2 stock matches, and so forth. Not something you see here often. Communities like this one tend to be victim to group think, which I think we're seeing a bit of.

4) It's the principle of the matter. I don't support crap like hacking. Not only is that illegal to do to games in and of itself, but people using ARs on a wider scale to push this rule set is only supporting the company making these things. The Pokemon community has issues with people using Pokegen already, and we're basically supporting this type of thing in more Nintendo games via that suggestion.

Side note: I don't know how many more hints one could ask for. They make a competitive game mode for the game, then ban items, Miis, custom moves and equipment, and set all stages to have a FD variant to fight on, yet we're here on this forum trying to wade through Mii logistics, custom move and smooth lander + heavy gravity implementation, and can't see in the slightest how FD is a neutral stage to fight on, based on my experience since becoming more active on this forum. Now the man blatantly leaves a quote, and we're told to just "disregard" the quote. There's really not much convincing anyone here...

@Guy Above This Post: The problem with AR is that they don't work with Nintendo. They simply make products that allow people to do illegal things with Nintendo products. So it's basically two legal issues wrapped up in one hacking device. Also, no, the issue didn't die. It just wasn't in the limelight. They had a few articles on NintendoLife about more recent cases with ARs and Nintendo a bit ago, but I don't remember specifics on it. Regardless, the more hacks get into a console, the more hacks are gonna come, since people build off of each other when it comes to coding (and thus hacking). If we want our online experience to have LESS bs in it, don't support hackers...unless you liked racing online in Mario Kart Wii...>_>

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, I relate to and agree with the anti-AR sentiment.

I've made a lot of posts about (and supporting customs), but am not sure I've ever laid out of post clearly listing the reasons. There are mainly three.

That isn't a reason is theory, including anything I posted in my pre-release thread. This was a list of reasons to be optimistic, but experience and reality always trumps theory.


First, customs let us tune the characters we select towards competitive 1v1 viability. Previously some characters were innately "Free-For-All" characters, doomed to be permanently gimped in competitive 1v1. But now we have the ability to bypass that, and without hacking or altering the core game. We get to have our cake and eat it too.


Second, the game's balance is just way, way, way better with customs. (The last point should make this no surprise) It's just super obvious, beyond any realm of subjectivity.

You know who has the least advantageous custom options? Diddy, Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, Ness, and Jigglypuff. Except Jigglypuff, these are universally regarded as the top characters. In fact, no "top characters" have especially good customs, in large part because having already good moves is what made them a good character.

You know who has the most advantageous custom options? WFT, Ganon, Ike, Palutena, Charizard, DHD, Samus, Link, DK, Villager, and Robin. Except Villager, these characters are all frequently regarded as some of the worst. While some people are optimistic about some of them, most put them in the bottom half, and almost no one puts them in top 15. In fact, the only "bad characters" with underwhelming customs are Olimar, DDD, and Zelda. (Who all still have more advantageous customs than the "top" characters!)


Finally, customs are part of someone's character, which is off-limits to ban just because of preference. Me and a lot of other people dislike Sonic, but that doesn't mean we can have a popularity vote and ban him. It's not like stages, where the two palyers must share a stage, and are forced to compromise in some way. I don't get a say in what character my opponent plays, and moves are part of that. (Equipment isn't, for a couple reasons, but that's another topic.)

Edit: Forgot DHD somehow.
Edit2: And Ness.

 

[smashmachine]

you didn't mention Rosalina in your writeup @ Thinkaman , 0/10

 

[Thinkaman]

you didn't mention Rosalina in your writeup @ Thinkaman , 0/10

I did this deliberately, since she's a complicated case that is a topic in and of herself.

I still believe that Rosalina with customs:

• Gets great options in Luma Warp and Speedy Star bit.
• Has significantly improved matchups against Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Ness.
• Has significantly worse matchups against tons of other characters, who previously had no way to deal with Luma and now do.
  • WFT, Charizard, Ganondorf, DDD, Ike, and Bowser Jr. in particular become great Luma-killers.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I did this deliberately, since she's a complicated case that is a topic in and of herself.

I still believe that Rosalina with customs:

• Gets great options in Luma Warp and Speedy Star bit.
• Has significantly improved matchups against Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Ness.
• Has significantly worse matchups against tons of other characters, who previously had no way to deal with Luma and now do.
  • WFT, Charizard, Ganondorf, DDD, Ike, and Bowser Jr. in particular become great Luma-killers.

WHOOO! We're different!

Ahem.

I can guess at a few specific moves that would help kill Luma like Sweeping Sun Salutation, Flame Chain/Wizard's Dropkick, Piercing Cannonball, and I suppose Dragon Rush only because that's the only Charizard custom I've ever seen anyone call good, but what do Dedede and Ike have for Luma?

 

[smashmachine]

oh yeah, what's the actual quote behind "Sakurai said the game isn't balance around custom moves"

 

[Muro]

oh yeah, what's the actual quote behind "Sakurai said the game isn't balance around custom moves"

is it any of these?

On the table flipping note. . . and since someone asked for sources here, Sakurai's own words:

"Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

"If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in, then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details.

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult?

Sakurai's main focus is accecibility. Game play and balance are very low on his list of priorities in this game. The main reason being he doesnt want the game to become "too dificult"

“When planning the development of a new game, I always take a lot of care to discuss the concept and try to define it as best I can. For example, I like to think of Smash as a four-player battle royal action game. You’ll notice that’s a lot longer than saying it’s a fighting game, because ‘fighting game’ is a completely different label."

Source: http://www.vg247.com/2013/06/20/smash-bros-sakurai-wants-to-target-silent-brawl-loving-community/

He is defining it as a 4 man battle royal, and whatever balance he implements will be geared towards that, not a 1v1 fighter.

"If tournament popularity was the most important consideration, then I think we would create a Smash Bros. game that included a multitude of fast moves with complicated controls. However, I believe this is actually the greatest shortcoming of fighting games at present, and that is the reason why I don’t do it."

"While there’s a lot of enthusiasm for tournaments on the one hand, there are also users who just give up on these sorts of games because they can’t handle the complexity and speed. While other fighting games continue to work on honing this tournament aspect, I think that we need to move in a direction where there is more of a focus on inexperienced gamers."

"There are so many other games out there which are geared to tournaments. It is important for us, however, to maintain the game’s status as a kind of ‘rough’ party game in which anyone can play without feeling too much pressure over winning or losing.

He is flat out admiting he does not want competitive play to be the focus of this game to avoid being like other fighting games.

Source: http://nintendoeverything.com/sakur...-smash-bros-more-interesting-than-the-others/

In response to Melee

"However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years"

He wanted smash to be a fun party type fighting game and not like all the other hardcore fighting games of the time.

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult-new-sakurai-interview.293080/

that thread has a lot of sakurai's other views regarding competitive smash.

And Finally, when asked if he takes feedback on balancing the game from high level competitive players, he responded:

"Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people."

Apparently Sakurai views the competitive scene as a group of maniacs, isn't that reassuring. . .

Source: http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-530744390


Granted, he doesnt hate competitive play, he is against smash having its main focus around competitive play, gameplay, and balance. balance we receive will generally be geared towards 4 man ffa. Not that there will be 0 balance for competitive play, but if you want balance geared towards the competitive scene, I wouldn't hold your breath to get it from Nintendo.

On a final note, this is the truth behind Namco bandai's actual part in the balancing of the game.

"In all previous Smash Bros. games, I've entered in all the data for fighter skills and hitboxes by myself, and it's quite nearly that way with this game too. I've thought about leaving this work to others and I've actually tried it once or twice, but it hasn't worked out. I don't want to release an incomplete game, and I want everything to be as successful as possible, but it results in a massive amount of work for me. It's a big problem, but there are reasons for doing it this way." — Masahiro Sakurai

"...we have to work to keep things dynamic and not over-fine-tune the balance. If we aim for complete fairness, there won't be any personality to it." — Masahiro Sakurai

Source: http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sakurai-is-balancing-the-new-smash-bros-games-by-himself

 

[Thinkaman]

I can guess at a few specific moves that would help kill Luma like Sweeping Sun Salutation, Flame Chain/Wizard's Dropkick, Piercing Cannonball, and I suppose Dragon Rush only because that's the only Charizard custom I've ever seen anyone call good, but what do Dedede and Ike have for Luma?

Sweeping Sun Salutation and Piercing Cannonball are alright, but actually aren't the great anti-Luma tools I expected them to be.

However, Enriched Sun Salutation is pretty good! It's strong enough to OHKO Luma pretty consistently, and small enough when charged to "headshot" Rosalina above Luma.

Anything that sweeps through a shielding opponent will carry Luma offstage to its doom. This includes the spin-out Koopa Kart, Dragon Rush, Wizard's Dropkick, Flame Chain, Jumbo Hoop, and Close Combat.

Dedede Storm is reasonably easy to land and has high base knockback, which often OHKOs Luma. It's normally not rewarding, but killing Luma changes that.

oh yeah, what's the actual quote behind "Sakurai said the game isn't balance around custom moves"

I forget the exact statement, but "We do not allow Mii fighters or custom moves in online matches with strangers, because we have to be mindful of the balance of the game. Please use these features when playing with friends."

The key context here is that Sakurai usually says "balance" referring to novice players and experienced players. He tends to say "character balance", "character strength", or "fighter parameters" when referring to character balance.

Custom moves, for all their advantages, are a complicated feature designed primarily for experts. While I do not agree with barring them from For Glory, I can understand how that decision would be made.

Edit:
If custom moves and Miis were allowed online in random matches, the GUI would need to be updated to show your opponents' selection before the match started.

 

[smashmachine]

Sweeping Sun Salutation and Piercing Cannonball are alright, but actually aren't the great anti-Luma tools I expected them to be.

However, Enriched Sun Salutation is pretty good! It's strong enough to OHKO Luma pretty consistently, and small enough when charged to "headshot" Rosalina above Luma.

Anything that sweeps through a shielding opponent will carry Luma offstage to its doom. This includes the spin-out Koopa Kart, Dragon Rush, Wizard's Dropkick, Flame Chain, Jumbo Hoop, and Close Combat.

Dedede Storm is reasonably easy to land and has high base knockback, which often OHKOs Luma. It's normally not rewarding, but killing Luma changes that.



I forget the exact statement, but "We do not allow Mii fighters or custom moves in online matches with strangers, because we have to be mindful of the balance of the game. Please use these features when playing with friends."

The key context here is that Sakurai usually says "balance" referring to novice players and experienced players. He tends to say "character balance", "character strength", or "fighter parameters" when referring to character balance.

Custom moves, for all their advantages, are a complicated feature designed primarily for experts. While I do not agree with barring them from For Glory, I can understand how that decision would be made.

Edit:
If custom moves and Miis were allowed online in random matches, the GUI would need to be updated to show your opponents' selection before the match started.

is there a link to this article then?

 

[Thinkaman]

is there a link to this article then?

It wasn't an article or interview, but a statement made through an interpreter in the middle of the 2014 E3 developer roundtable discussing Miis. It was quoted by a couple journalists as:

"To maintain the game balance, customized fighters will not be available in With Anyone mode."