Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmmm that comment about age hit a sore spot for me. I'm 34 now. I have Elite Smash rank online with pokemon trainer. There's little doubt I'm at least above average but one of my online friends warned me and was worried I was pinning my self worth on gaining and maintaining Elite Smash.
I, of course, denied this but the observation scared me. I know there's a lot more to me than playing video games well into my 40s and beyond but how does anyone else from the outside looking in see that?
However that is off topic and not the purpose of this thread or the forum in general.
Instead let's focus more on characters that aren't really talked about.
I remember someone on this thread saying that most smash players overgeneralize Pokemon Trainer into Squirtle and Ivysaur and ignore Charizard. What does he bring to the table? What does he have that the other two don't?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I remember someone on this thread saying that most smash players overgeneralize Pokemon Trainer into Squirtle and Ivysaur and ignore Charizard. What does he bring to the table? What does he have that the other two don't?

The biggest thing I think Charizard brings to the table, aside from the obvious kill power and recovery, is his ground speed. This should be common knowledge by now but Charizard has a top 10 run speed and top 5 initial dash. This is very important because Squirtle's mobility is deceptively average and Ivysaur's is just poor. Both characters can sometimes have a hard time keep up with characters who can outmaneuver them. This isn't a huge problem - Squirtle has a good dash attack and Ivysaur has range and a projectile, but it can limit how aggressive they can play and can sometimes make bait and punish tactics a pain for them.

Charizard however is great for chasing down evasive players. Even if they try and flee to the air where Charizard is less mobile, they'll have to come down eventually where he can meet them on the ground. His actual neutral buttons are pretty limited which is probably why he's talked about less in match up discussions but spaced F-tilt is safe on shield and can do the trick if you need a safe poke. He can also play an effective bait and punish game himself.

Some relevant match ups where I think Charizard comes particularly in handy include Lucina, Pikachu, and Fox. Against Lucina he can outrange her with certain moves like Fair and Bair, while also being able to outmaneuver her - many characters can do one or the other, but few have the luxury to do both. Against Pikachu, Charizard's range can allow him to contest thunderjolt's and his speed allows him to keep up somewhat against Pikachu's evasive playstyle. Fox is one that I do think is losing for PT, but Charizard can still come in clutch here since he's not as overwhelmed by Fox's speed and doesn't mind sitting in shield against Fox's pressure, especially at kill percents where Fox might be less tempted to grab. Getting grabbed still puts Charizard in a bad position but it will also increase his rage. Without Charizard, I think all three of these characters would have much better match ups against Pokemon Trainer overall.

One thing that can limit Charizard from abusing his mobility to its fullest are projectiles. We all know that Charizard had a big body, but projectiles can be particularly annoying for him because they limit how much he can abuse his ground mobility since he can't dash as freely, either being forced to jump or stop to shield. Still, having good ground mobility is better against projectiles then not having it against them, and he can still close the gap more quickly then other superheavies. But I do think this is why people tend to agree that Pokemon Trainer does have issues against projectile specialist - Squirtle and Ivysaur can't just overwhelm them with raw speed, and the one pokemon who does have the speed is still very limited by them.

 

[WatwatBreton]

An other matchup where Charizard is particularly effective is Greninja (to the point where zard gren 90:10 is a meme on the grencord lol).

Greninja has more mobility, a projectile and more range than squirtle, which can make getting on him difficult. Not to mention their damage output are similar or even gren favored - I can't count the number of times I've hit a fair on a squirtle dash in and then dash attack -> usmash puts them at 50 and makes them switch.
Ivy meanwhile, really enjoys slow paced midrange game around her projectiles and big hitboxes (reminds me of lucas in a way? They even share the slow-ish nair oos habits and floatiness) but that's something that gren just preys on naturally. Pressing side b is fun and all until the frog short hops over it, and it isn't particularly hard to outmaneuver Ivy in neutral.

But then zard comes out and has:

• Top 10 run/dash speed.
• Buttons with good range and which can kill you randomly (ftilt is such a dumb move), which coupled with the mobility stats let him play footsies pretty well.
• Actual OOS (the main different with Ridley, which is a matchup commonly agreed to be a win for gren because he's easier to pressure. And lighter for some reason).

So yeah you can't mash his shield like you'd mash other heavies because he can kill you for it, outmaneuvering him is hard because he goes as fast as you and has even better buttons, and you might kill him on an edgegard if you get him there while he just ftilt/bair you at 80 and you explode.

Of course it's definitely playable as gren - he's combo food, his recovery is very easy to exploit, his landing aerials can be punished, well spaced fair and nair are still safe ... I personally think the PT matchup is even/very slight gren overall and iirc that's what most top grens agree on. But he's overall harder to exploit than the other 2 and also way more explosive. Most of my games against PT players start becoming way more difficult when they realize that a) ivy is mostly a dair bot in the matchup and b) zard is actually really hecking good (fortunately usually around last stock last game lmao).


But somehow the character is still very underrated (even in Tweek's mu chart most of his explanations are "you take squirtle and hit them then kill with ivy") and I'm not exactly sure why. Could be people not realizing the power of being a heavy when you decide to be. Could be old days twitter propaganda (I still blame leffen tbh) about how zard is bottom 1. Could be that he requires a bit more nuance to play in neutral and to understand in which situations he's good (as opposed to Ivy who pretty much plays herself). But having a deadlier heavier Ridley with actual OOS only in situations where you want him is just... good in a lot of matchups. And if the opponent's character beats tall heavy characters too hard well it's ok! You've got 2 other pokemons to play neutral with and who knows you might get a cheese rage kill at 40% on a bthrow bair at some point.

 

[DE235]

Fudj has made another video on Smash Ultimate.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Fudj has made another video on Smash Ultimate.

Oh god.

While his old video was pretty well made, this style of clickbaity "I'm objectively right, you're wrong and I'm gonna strawman anyone who disagrees." type of content is getting really old...

Yeah yeah, you gotta get those views somehow. But it's a major shame that creators keep exaggerating and giving overly passive, negative impressions just to get people to come in...


Also, TLDR' ver, please?

 

[Nobie]

For a much, much better video, everyone should watch the first episode of Tweek's new show, Tweek Talks. He goes in-depth on his thoughts on all the recent DLC characters, as well as things like mindset during competition. It's really informative and great.

https://youtu.be/vEaTfkDz7Z0

 

[RonNewcomb]

Also, TLDR' ver, please?

• please fix weird buffering system where the button is buffered but the directional isn't (OoS d-air with drift forward gives a f-air instead)
• please fix c-stick issues
• please fix (remove?) hold-buffering (accidental rolls on landing)
• the weird buffering means you can't buffer a full hop aerial, you'll always get short-hop aerial; for example, Greninja mains hate this (d-tilt -> f-air shouldn't be that hard) all other smash games buffer full hop rising aerials just fine.
• input lag is at best 11f (!!) (around a third to a half of that is Switch hardware)
• online.
• online with more that 2 people in the lobby uses a 30-tick server instead of a 60-tick server (he quoted a tweet; I may have misunderstood?)
• balancing has indeed improved since his previous video
• CaptainL: unable to walk through people could've been great, but full hop acceleration + all aerials safe on block means it didn't amount to much
• CaptainL: very little tech, especially ground movement. no perfect pivots, no bidou, no slide-off shenanigans. (minor mention: platforms sometimes seem weirdly sticky / hard to drop through)
• thank you for fixing rage

He feels that the one area that took a step back from 4 was the game's control feel, due to Ultimate's weird buffering. It's the buffering stuff that really bothers him.

 

[ARISTOS]

• CaptainL: unable to walk through people could've been great, but full hop acceleration + all aerials safe on block means it didn't amount to much
• CaptainL: very little tech, especially ground movement. no perfect pivots, no bidou, no slide-off shenanigans. (minor mention: platforms sometimes seem weirdly sticky / hard to drop through)
• thank you for fixing rage

He feels that the one area that took a step back from 4 was the game's control feel, due to Ultimate's weird buffering. It's the buffering stuff that really bothers him.

People wanting "hype" tech like perfect pivots instead of just having base mechanics improved will never make sense to me lmao.

Also wanting shield dropping in the game but at the same time saying they want a more aggressive game doesn't compute.

 

[meleebrawler]

People wanting "hype" tech like perfect pivots instead of just having base mechanics improved will never make sense to me lmao.

Also wanting shield dropping in the game but at the same time saying they want a more aggressive game doesn't compute.

They want to separate themselves from the casuals, it's that simple.

 

[StoicPhantom]

People wanting "hype" tech like perfect pivots instead of just having base mechanics improved will never make sense to me lmao.

I don't think that people want perfect pivots back for "hype" so much as an equivalent to the back step in other fighting games. If there's one thing I feel that is sorely needed in the mash fest that is Ultimate, it would be more precision movement options like those mentioned. Movement in general feels rather clunky and limited in part due to the controls and buffer system, but also just how risky defensive movements like dashing back and shielding seem to be.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I guess to keep up with the fact that Tweek's podcast talked about Min Min, Steve, and Sephiroth, both Larry Lurr and Poppt1 both recently posted videos that involve ranking the DLC characters relative to eachother.

Larry Lurr's video:

Smash Ultimate 10.1 DLC Tier List

Catch me on Twitch! I go live on weekdays at 11am PSThttps://www.twitch.tv/larrylurrGimr video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqPbYaflXbY&ab_channel=GimR%2...

www.youtube.com

Poppt1's video:

SMASH ULTIMATE DLC TIER LIST

Who is the best DLC in Smash Bros. Ultimate? In this video I rank all of the Smash Ultimate DLC characters; Piranha Plant, Joker, Hero, Banjo and Kazooie, Te...

www.youtube.com

For both videos, they believe that all the DLC characters are mid tier at worst.

Larry's list:
S: Joker, Min Min, Sephiroth
A: Steve, Hero, Terry, Byleth
B: Banjo, PPlant

Poppt1's list:
Joker > Steve > Terry > Sephiroth > Min Min > Hero > Byleth > PPlant > Banjo

Larry is aware that his high placement of Hero comes off as a surprise.
Poppt1 is aware that Min Min is extremely highly regarded, especially in Japan, but he doesn't think very highly of her himself. He also believes that Steve, and to a lesser extent PPlant, are very underrated characters.


Of course, neither lists are perfect and I don't agree with everything they said with each character, but at the very least we can interpret patterns with their placements.

I am going to place my personal opinion on each DLC character at a later time, but I am posting this here for people to digest.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think that people want perfect pivots back for "hype" so much as an equivalent to the back step in other fighting games. If there's one thing I feel that is sorely needed in the mash fest that is Ultimate, it would be more precision movement options like those mentioned. Movement in general feels rather clunky and limited in part due to the controls and buffer system, but also just how risky defensive movements like dashing back and shielding seem to be.

Can't they use Ryu, Ken or Terry if they want a backstep so badly?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think that people want perfect pivots back for "hype" so much as an equivalent to the back step in other fighting games. If there's one thing I feel that is sorely needed in the mash fest that is Ultimate, it would be more precision movement options like those mentioned. Movement in general feels rather clunky and limited in part due to the controls and buffer system, but also just how risky defensive movements like dashing back and shielding seem to be.

It's ironic that the true professionals finally got the more aggressive, offense based Smash Bros. game with Ultimate, only for the buffer system to be so imprecise that you'd now ironically wish it was slower so it was more manageable.

It's real ****ing funny when you think about it.

 

[DougEfresh]

I guess to keep up with the fact that Tweek's podcast talked about Min Min, Steve, and Sephiroth, both Larry Lurr and Poppt1 both recently posted videos that involve ranking the DLC characters relative to eachother.

Larry Lurr's video:

Smash Ultimate 10.1 DLC Tier List

Catch me on Twitch! I go live on weekdays at 11am PSThttps://www.twitch.tv/larrylurrGimr video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqPbYaflXbY&ab_channel=GimR%2...

www.youtube.com

Poppt1's video:

SMASH ULTIMATE DLC TIER LIST

Who is the best DLC in Smash Bros. Ultimate? In this video I rank all of the Smash Ultimate DLC characters; Piranha Plant, Joker, Hero, Banjo and Kazooie, Te...

www.youtube.com

For both videos, they believe that all the DLC characters are mid tier at worst.

Larry's list:
S: Joker, Min Min, Sephiroth
A: Steve, Hero, Terry, Byleth
B: Banjo, PPlant

Poppt1's list:
Joker > Steve > Terry > Sephiroth > Min Min > Hero > Byleth > PPlant > Banjo

Larry is aware that his high placement of Hero comes off as a surprise.
Poppt1 is aware that Min Min is extremely highly regarded, especially in Japan, but he doesn't think very highly of her himself. He also believes that Steve, and to a lesser extent PPlant, are very underrated characters.


Of course, neither lists are perfect and I don't agree with everything they said with each character, but at the very least we can interpret patterns with their placements.

I am going to place my personal opinion on each DLC character at a later time, but I am posting this here for people to digest.

I watched both of these previously, and some of their thought processes on their rankings were interesting to say the least. First of all, I was fully expecting to be considered the worst DLC on both lists (granted, my guess with him was close enough in Poppt1's list at least). Ptooie truly just feels like a gimmick that only seems busted if you don't know how play around it, and Plant doesn't have a solid neutral or general gameplan as a backbone to that gimmick. He's also quite slow and iirc, has one of the worst 2f animations in the game.

I also know that isn't looked at too favorably atm, but it surprised me that both players never brought up his ledge trapping, which is really what I think carries Banjo more than anything else despite popular opinion suggesting that it's wonderwing that does the carrying for him (it's good, but more as a hard read punish, mix up, and recovery move to discourage edgeguards). Rear egg and egg shots cover a good number of ledge options and a lot of characters struggle to deal with it, especially in combination with his several potent 2-framing moves. Banjo also has a pretty decent neutral, and does NOT need to overly rely on his projectiles; they're used as conditioning tools more effectively than as strict zoning or camping tools. His 3 jumps are useful for timing mix ups in neutral and in disadvantage (which can help mitigate the juggling issue Banjo has that Larry mentioned) and having the 11th fastest run speed makes Banjo surprisingly good at catching landings to help compensate for his lack of vertical speed and pressure. It's true that his damage output is lacking, but a knowledgeable player can still make that seem less apparent with good tech chasing and frame trapping ability to extend a sequence and rack up damage well enough Imo.

's rng factor can only do so much even though it deserves some level of respect (or else get bamboozled by a number of his command menu options) and I don't think he has the mobility or fdata to warrant his placements being as high as either player has him (but especially so in Larry's case). I think it's telling that players like Salem haven't used Hero nearly as much in more recent times, although perhaps you could attribute Salem's lack of using him to be because of a "new toy" effect with and coming out (and of course they fit his playstyle perfectly lmao).

I won't go through the entire list here, but overall I'd personally put at 5th or 6th among the DLC so far. I think he's solidly superior to and , and maybe as well, but the jury is still out on him as he's still rather new and far more complex than the rest of the DLC.

I also just want to say that while I like Poppt1 a lot and think he's a very good and knowledgeable player, it felt like his list of DLC was ranked more based off hype potential than actual character competence and viability. For as long as I've known about him and watched his content, he's always played like a crowd pleaser trying to be hype and pull off BS on other people, which I think reflects his ranking of Banjo as the worst DLC, Hero being higher than I think most of us would say, and Min Min being placed lower than what a growing number of players are saying as of late.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Can't they use Ryu, Ken or Terry if they want a backstep so badly?

Well, that would kind of limit character options significantly. But I'm not necessarily talking about literal back steps, but some similar form of short burst movements. Perfect pivots and other movement tech are a Smash equivalent, but they are missing from Ultimate. People seem to be using rolls as a replacement, but they are either too imprecise or too character specific.

Ultimate isn't a very nuanced game in practice and the lack of movement options combined with the safer aerials and greater aerial acceleration leads to a rather linear neutral. Adding in the input lag turns things into a very "shoot first, ask questions later" thing where you end up frequently running into situations where you have to put your best option forward and cross your fingers.

I think that's where these movement options could potentially come in. Shields aren't very good outside of specific characters and Parry can be mixed in its effectiveness depending on context and character. The strength and prevalence of burst options make dashing rather unsafe and that seems to have been what movement was intended to be designed around. Being able to do any option out of a dash is great, but there are rather powerful counters to it.

Something like a perfect pivot would be a good counter to a head-on charge because it allows you to quickly step out of range and the FAF + aerial speed + landing = major punish. It would also make spacing and positioning much easier. And it would spice up the game in general and allow for more freedom of style, as it does feel like the game shoehorns you into very narrow boxes.


Though I guess it would ultimately come down to personal preference and taste. High level players lament the lack of options and expression, and I lean that way too, but the easier accessibility and lower skill ceiling seems to be popular among a large portion of the base. I'm not too overly bothered by it anymore, as there are plenty of other fighting games out there, but Smash professionals have staked their careers and identity in Ultimate, so some are clamoring for these changes.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, that would kind of limit character options significantly. But I'm not necessarily talking about literal back steps, but some similar form of short burst movements. Perfect pivots and other movement tech are a Smash equivalent, but they are missing from Ultimate. People seem to be using rolls as a replacement, but they are either too imprecise or too character specific.

Ultimate isn't a very nuanced game in practice and the lack of movement options combined with the safer aerials and greater aerial acceleration leads to a rather linear neutral. Adding in the input lag turns things into a very "shoot first, ask questions later" thing where you end up frequently running into situations where you have to put your best option forward and cross your fingers.

I think that's where these movement options could potentially come in. Shields aren't very good outside of specific characters and Parry can be mixed in its effectiveness depending on context and character. The strength and prevalence of burst options make dashing rather unsafe and that seems to have been what movement was intended to be designed around. Being able to do any option out of a dash is great, but there are rather powerful counters to it.

Something like a perfect pivot would be a good counter to a head-on charge because it allows you to quickly step out of range and the FAF + aerial speed + landing = major punish. It would also make spacing and positioning much easier. And it would spice up the game in general and allow for more freedom of style, as it does feel like the game shoehorns you into very narrow boxes.


Though I guess it would ultimately come down to personal preference and taste. High level players lament the lack of options and expression, and I lean that way too, but the easier accessibility and lower skill ceiling seems to be popular among a large portion of the base. I'm not too overly bothered by it anymore, as there are plenty of other fighting games out there, but Smash professionals have staked their careers and identity in Ultimate, so some are clamoring for these changes.

A higher number of viable characters outweighs any amount of tech depth to me. I'd rather "express" myself in how good I can be with any given one, no matter what limitations or not the engine has.

 

[StoicPhantom]

A higher number of viable characters outweighs any amount of tech depth to me. I'd rather "express" myself in how good I can be with any given one, no matter what limitations or not the engine has.

That's perfectly fine and more power to you. I tend to the inverse where I'm fine with a smaller number of viable characters if we can get the depth and nuance of the top tiers of previous games. But I was more making a case as to why higher level players would want movement tech outside of some sense of elitism.

Though I think the desire for that type of tech is more a lack of universal mechanics that most other fighting games have and not necessarily a desire for tech itself. It would probably be better if the developers added in universal movement mechanics rather than rely on weird and difficult tech to compensate.

 

[RonNewcomb]

People wanting "hype" tech like perfect pivots instead of just having base mechanics improved will never make sense to me lmao.

Also wanting shield dropping in the game but at the same time saying they want a more aggressive game doesn't compute.

I wouldn't generalize to "people" just from Fudj & CaptainL's two perspectives. To be fair, they both used perfect pivots a lot in their Smash4 play. Fudj is a Falco main, and a PP puts the bird at the perfect d-tilt distance, which is a combo starter. So I think its a valid complaint coming from Falco mains, for example. Bidou makes PPs easier, but I don't know what CaptL's Pikachu got out of PPs but I suppose it was more than nothing.

Wanting "hype" tech means wanting tech for others to use so you can enjoy spectating, but these players, one of whom was top 50 PGR at a point, want it for themselves. PPs were a good bait-n-punish tech.

I'm personally fine with odd physics tech like this. I even tried to implement stepdash into my play. And what I've learned from SFV is that removing all exploits, subtle mechanics and such, while making the game easier to balance, more accessible, and easier to learn, can also lead to a pretty dry game. Anime fighters tend to avoid this by having a lot of systems that all characters can use, but then of course that can begin to eclipse the characters' individual abilities.

 

[DJ3DS]

There's an important distinction to be made between having tech and having options. More options gives you a game with more depth. Generally speaking, tech gives players more options so a little bit of a false equivalence goes on but aside from a small minority of elitist players - the sort who would advocate L-Cancelling instead of simply reducing landing lag, for example - I don't think anyone is really after raising the skill floor unnecessarily.

At least, I hope not. As someone who short hops using the two button shortcut because doing it manually is too inconsistent, I have greatly appreciated the relative accessibility Ultimate has going for it.

 

[StoicPhantom]

At least, I hope not. As someone who short hops using the two button shortcut because doing it manually is too inconsistent, I have greatly appreciated the relative accessibility Ultimate has going for it.

I don't think anyone has really said anything like that and are more for having more options like you were talking about. My beef tends to be more towards things like removing the need for input timing with a new hold buffer that also screws over more skilled players, greatly increasing the tech window for stage spikes while capping the amount of force or damage you can tech at, and various other things that seem too lenient and yet too limiting at the same time.

I'm all for less pointlessly difficult barriers, but I feel like there should still be some form of minimum effort and that we certainly shouldn't hinder skilled players in our attempts to make things more accessible. The fact that a simple macro intended to make short hop aerials easier made it that difficult to do something as basic as spacing Nairs still blows my mind.

 

[StrangeKitten]

All that would need to be done is have an option to turn off the macros. Or better yet, dedicated full hop and short hop buttons. Or even all of those! It doesn't sound hard to implement, and you could keep the macros intact for players who like them.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I dont think that changing the game. Buffer or controls will change much how ultimate plays to those people, at the end of the day ultimate plays different from smash 4.

unless they change base mechanics ultimate will not play like smash 4(this is what most of those top players want).

in my opinion their energy would be better spent trying to revive the competitive scene from smash 4 that trying to change ultimate to be smash 4.

I suppose "esports" sponsorship tie their hands in term of choosing what to play but is obvious that most of the dont enjoy playing the game so after 3 years it gets pretty tired.

I prefer if the spotlight in the Ultimate community was reserved for players that actually enjoy playing the game and not people that as soon as smash 6 gets announced wil say "thank god I never liked. Ultimate and only played for exposure".

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This discussion about buffer and auto short hop aerials reminds me of this video:

Spoiler: Bleh My List Bleh

-Let you change your controls from the Character Selection Screen. (A timesaver for tourneys)

-An option to de-syn Pro-Controls on Character Selection Screen (Another timesaver for tourneys)

-Less input delay and improved buffer system. Maybe even let you customize the buffer system in your controls.

-Let you play your Custom Stages in Training Mode. The last two games had this, did they just forget this time... -More options for Training dummy's behavior. (Tech options, DI, Out of shield, etc...) Heck, even a dummy record function like in other fighting games.

-Music doesn't restart in Training Mode. Heck, why not even include My Music as an option during gameplay in Training mode.

-Let you pick your stage on Quickplay. Why is this not an option already...

-Changing your fighter, stage, music, ruleset, etc... shouldn't kick you in line from Arenas. Put a time limit or something to prevent people from stalling in those options.

-Bring back the option to block people on the result screen online from Sm4sh.

-If the opponent disconnects and loses GSP, then you should get GSP.

-Stage Hazard toggle, or maybe even an option to toggle certain hazards as Pjiggles suggested.

-Fix the C-Stick. It works as MACRO for attack + direction, rather than its own input like in Melee. This is what causes those moments of C-Stick aerials drifting your character or even getting Nairs.

-Add a toggle for AUTO Short-Hop Aerials - Full-Hop Aerials. Heck, maybe even add a dedicated Short/Full Hop option in your custom controls.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I dont know why people think the reason we dont have a combined stage list is because the lack of a hazard toggle.

 

[meleebrawler]

I dont think that changing the game. Buffer or controls will change much how ultimate plays to those people, at the end of the day ultimate plays different from smash 4.

unless they change base mechanics ultimate will not play like smash 4(this is what most of those top players want).

in my opinion their energy would be better spent trying to revive the competitive scene from smash 4 that trying to change ultimate to be smash 4.

I suppose "esports" sponsorship tie their hands in term of choosing what to play but is obvious that most of the dont enjoy playing the game so after 3 years it gets pretty tired.

I prefer if the spotlight in the Ultimate community was reserved for players that actually enjoy playing the game and not people that as soon as smash 6 gets announced wil say "thank god I never liked. Ultimate and only played for exposure".

Sadly they would just say Bayonetta and Cloud ruined 4 forever, like Meta Knight did to Brawl.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Striking that balance between accessible and depth isn’t easy. I think people like to point towards Smash in regards to this debate because Smash was created out of the desire to make an accessible fighting game. Simplified controls, free movement, no life bars, etc.

Completely agree that having tech for the sake of tech doesn’t add anything to the game and can (not always) cause arbitrary barriers to entry. You can’t scare off newer players it’s not sustainable to the game’s life span and frankly can get frustrating for existing players that the only barrier to your improvement is some complex input or tech rather your matchup knowledge and understanding of the game.

At the same time I do desire myself and understand the want for atleast more movement freedom. Movement is a critical part of what makes Smash feel like Smash. The existence of wavedashing and the high tech heavy intricacies of a Melee space animal didn’t scare off me as a kid when I was playing four player FFAs at max items on Fourside. Smash is already at its core a friendly game to newer players and non players. You can absolutely make things more in-depth for players who seek it and not scare off those players who don’t.

 

[meleebrawler]

Striking that balance between accessible and depth isn’t easy. I think people like to point towards Smash in regards to this debate because Smash was created out of the desire to make an accessible fighting game. Simplified controls, free movement, no life bars, etc.

Completely agree that having tech for the sake of tech doesn’t add anything to the game and can (not always) cause arbitrary barriers to entry. You can’t scare off newer players it’s not sustainable to the game’s life span and frankly can get frustrating for existing players that the only barrier to your improvement is some complex input or tech rather your matchup knowledge and understanding of the game.

At the same time I do desire myself and understand the want for atleast more movement freedom. Movement is a critical part of what makes Smash feel like Smash. The existence of wavedashing and the high tech heavy intricacies of a Melee space animal didn’t scare off me as a kid when I was playing four player FFAs at max items on Fourside. Smash is already at its core a friendly game to newer players and non players. You can absolutely make things more in-depth for players who seek it and not scare off those players who don’t.

Isn't it kind of ironic that Melee is probably the second clunkiest feeling Smash (behind 64) if you don't practice it's tech, though? Almost everything about it conspires to make self-destructs very, very easy to do, to say nothing of airdodges being fairly useless at their stated purpose.

I also have to question that if "free movement" is essential, why make slow-moving characters in that case? I guess we should be lobbying for standardized initial dashes next?

 

[StoicPhantom]

I also have to question that if "free movement" is essential, why make slow-moving characters in that case? I guess we should be lobbying for standardized initial dashes next?

Because that's only movement in a narrow sense of the word. It's not necessarily about speed or acceleration, but being able to make micro movements in a safe manner.

We use subtle applications of DI to space our aerials for instance. Lots of players have changed their control schemes to better aid in that endeavor, e.g. using the right stick for directional aerials and keeping the left stick free to DI. And lots of characters rely on this subtlety to land sweet/sourspots or hit moves at a particular angle to access different combo trees. This has become an essential part of Smash and I think we can all agree that the game would significantly change, and perhaps for the worse, if we removed this ability.

The type of movement we are talking about is the ground equivalent of the above. Backsteps and sidesteps in other fighting games or perfects pivots and wavedashing in Smash. Something that allows us to make quick adjustments to our positions in the ever changing neutral. If I get a read on a burst option I'd like to be able to land a whopper of a punish and not settle for much less/nothing at all because I was just slightly off in my positioning.

This type of movement would help a variety of characters in a variety of situations, but it might also help those very precise ones that are struggling a little like Marth. And it would just overall help balance things a little from swinging between pure aggression to pure passiveness like I feel happens frequently in Ultimate. It fills in a little extra detail if you will. Not something that will significantly change anything outside of a high level, but enough to keep some of us happy.


And I feel like there's a rather unfair labeling of this sentiment as elitism and a desire for gatekeeping or something like that. I don't really care if this manifests in technically difficult tech or in very simple mechanics like double-tapping a direction or something, I just want some form of this to exist and I think most others complaining about it do too.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Isn't it kind of ironic that Melee is probably the second clunkiest feeling Smash (behind 64) if you don't practice it's tech, though? Almost everything about it conspires to make self-destructs very, very easy to do, to say nothing of airdodges being fairly useless at their stated purpose.

I also have to question that if "free movement" is essential, why make slow-moving characters in that case? I guess we should be lobbying for standardized initial dashes next?

Slow moving characters are obviously slow for mostly balance reasons. But slower characters still benefit the same from a more movement rich game that fast ones do. Being able to carry momentum from the ground to air would go a long way in making even slow characters feel a lot smoother in getting around a stage and playing neutral. Perfect Pivoting helps with more delicate spacing adjustments that can make the difference from this move is safe to throw out or not. I am not someone who believes you need wavedashing in a smash game to let it not feel restrictive but you can’t deny the impact it had on competitive Melee.

Even in Ultimate the way people actively avoid platforms because of how sticky they are is another barrier to movement options. Slow characters should remain slow I don’t advocate for them being faster but I do advocate for them and the rest of the cast to be able to more smoothly maneuver a stage.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I can't help but think that sticky platforms in Ultimate are in part intended to keep players from dropping through the platform on accident. It's something I suppose I appreciate when using platforms to extend combos or juggles, but at the same time, not being to buffer a platform drop out of an attack also feels really unintuitive sometimes.

In terms of a more aggressive game...well, it's a double edge sword. Platforms can provide cover from characters who are camping or playing defensively, making it more difficult to approach them from the air. It's still possible to delay your aerial until after you pass through the platform if you want to attack from a high angle but sticky platforms don't solely benefit offensive play.

That said I doubt Nintendo is going to change how the entire game's platform physics work through a patch, especially after years of people getting used to it. Maybe in a hypothetical future Smash title, but who knows how long that'll be? For now I suppose I'll just have to get more used to maneuvering through and around platforms more.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Completely agree that having tech for the sake of tech doesn’t add anything to the game and can (not always) cause arbitrary barriers to entry.

At the same time I do desire myself and understand the want for atleast more movement freedom. The existence of wavedashing and the high tech heavy intricacies of a Melee space animal didn’t scare off me as a kid when I was playing four player FFAs at max items on Fourside.

I can defend L-Canceling to an extent. From the designer's perspective, you want there to be levels of mastery in your fighting game, and you want there to be things to discover beyond what's immediately apparent. L-Canceling is a great little mechanic that can put a casual player on the road to becoming a non-casual player, just by virtue of a little discovery their roommate (true story) tells them about when I can punish his d-air into the ground but he can't punish mine. Once explained, he started doing it immediately and integrated it into his play, immediately "leveling up" over the horde of other casuals including his usual group of friends. That feels good, to get better suddenly like that, and it incentivizes him into learning what other tricks and trivia the game may hold.

Granted, the designer isn't thinking about the game beyond a couple of years or so after its release, so in the odd circumstance that the game's still played 20 years later, yeah, L-Canceling is just a chore. But it served a good purpose once upon a time.

And the same goes for DI. "How on earth is this visiting Japanese Yoshi living to these absurd percents? .... Really? ... O.M.G. how deep does this game go?"

And SDI. Why not just make it automatic?

And Street Fighter inputs. Why not just one button for specials?

It's because the designer wants to reward the player that spends more time with the game. And that player feels that they should be rewarded because they are investing time others are not. That seems fair and just.

My only issue with PPs is not that it's an obscure tech with a niche use, but the 1-frame input. Much like 1f links in SF4, no one wants something that's so difficult even after heavy practice to be a thing. (But unlike the links, PPs don't look intentional so I can't yell at devs for it.)

Look at GranBlue Fantasy Versus. It got a lot of interest from the FGC for being almost SF2 in its purity, but about a year after its release its playerbase shrank dramatically partly because, lacking any tech or execution requirements, the game feels "solved".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Look at GranBlue Fantasy Versus. It got a lot of interest from the FGC for being almost SF2 in its purity, but about a year after its release its playerbase shrank dramatically partly because, lacking any tech or execution requirements, the game feels "solved".

I thought that was more because the FGC really doesn't give new IPs a ton of attention.

It really doesn't like change and only a few select IPs get consistent attention.

 

[WatwatBreton]

I don't think the comparison between L-cancel and SDI/DI/command inputs is fair tbh.

DI is heavily situation dependent - sometime you gotta DI away from combos, in to survive, mix-it up to throw your opponent off... It tests your matchup knowledge, is a very intuitive input to do, and has layers of guessing involved.
SDI is pretty much that but with a stupid execution barrier on top of it that requires you to be good at mario party - I'm not a fan and I think there is a reason most smash bros clones get rid of it - but at least there is some nuances to it.
Mashing would be the dumb-downed version of it, there is still some nuances involved (like mashing 50/50s on rob dthrow) but i'd rather not have it be dependent on "how good am i at breaking my fingers". I think it's fine for pummels and breaking out of throws coz the reward is minimal, but man was I disappointed when they revealed banjo to have an other one of these.

Command inputs are a bit of a different beast. Core-A-Gaming did a very good video on them some time ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WhbSNP_zF4), but the tl,dr is that they have some sort of gameplay value. Guile having to charge backward to do his projectile means he can't do it while walking forward, and Ryu having to do a shoryuken input to shoryuken means that it's easier to perform while walking forward, while also adding a slight execution + mental barrier to a powerful option. Making shoryukens doable at the press of a single button would make the move significantly better, and some other fighter games played around that concept (by giving it a cooldown, or having it cost health).

Whereas L-cancel is just... an execution check that makes you way better at the game if you learner to press an additional button at every landing aerial. It adds an additional barier of entry to what is already a very complicated game, and more importantly it's very... binary? You can either do it or you can't, and if you can do it you should do it in 100% of situations. It does increase the skillcap of your game but it doesn't really add depth to it, and I'd rather have players spend time thinking about neutral interactions and movement and options (ie playing the actual game).
It's like if I made every jump in mario require you to press the fireball button when you land otherwise mario breaks his legs for a few seconds - it's not very intuitive (why the fireball/airdodge button?) and I'd rather be playing mario than worry about this. Of course in melee L cancel wasn't planned by the devs at all so it's not like they thought super hard about its game design implications, but I don't think any other smash bros game/clone (even the ones that have wavedash like rivals) implemented L cancel again coz they thought it was an interesting mechanic.

I'm definitely not against options that increase the skillcap of your game - I think wavedash is wonderful as it's both a very deep option and reasonably easy to perform. Heck I could get behind getting perfect pivot back if they weren't a very stupid input. But I feel like adding levels of mastery to your game should come in the form of adding interesting options that will reward people who can use them optimally, not arbitrary execution checks for things that should either be automatic (L-cancel) or way less esoteric to do (perfect pivot).

 

[Idon]

Look at GranBlue Fantasy Versus. It got a lot of interest from the FGC for being almost SF2 in its purity, but about a year after its release its playerbase shrank dramatically partly because, lacking any tech or execution requirements, the game feels "solved".

That seems like a bizarre thing to attribute to a game primarily lambasted for its terrible online functionality in the times of covid.
Disregarding that, it's got a pretty active online scene in spite of its online and new content still being produced to this day, things you can't really say for a lot of "dead" fighting games.

Honestly I really can't agree with any of the above but that comparison stuck out to me the most, especially when the highest selling traditional fighting game out right now, SFV, has a fair bit of criticism centered about its simplicity.

I thought that was more because the FGC really doesn't give new IPs a ton of attention.

It really doesn't like change and only a few select IPs get consistent attention.

I wouldn't necessarily say that.

We've had hit new fighting game IPs come out in the last decade such as:
UNIEL
SkullGirls
Injustice
Persona 4 Arena
Pokken
Power Ranger BftG
and Dragonball FighterZ

Of course most are tied to a larger IP, but I wouldn't say the FGC as a whole is adverse to new IPs.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Of course most are tied to a larger IP, but I wouldn't say the FGC as a whole is adverse to new IPs.

It's not that they're adverse to new IPs. It's just that a lot of them just don't stay around in the FGC headspace.

Each has their own dedicated communities, but it feels like a large portion of the FGC drops them fairly quickly... and then calls them dead.

Perhaps I'm not the best person to ask though, I'm a little bitter that certain fighting games don't get the attention they deserve.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I think walking could provide that microspacing option we desire with one simple improvement. Try walking with lucina. Notice how it takes you a moment before you reach your max speed. What if this was instant instead? Walking is easy to input, so it wouldn't be an extra tech skill barrier. Of course, lucina/marth is probably the most extreme example in the game, sporting a low walking acceleration while also having the highest maximum walking speed in the game, so maybe it would be a less impactful change than I'm thinking. What do you all think?

 

[meleebrawler]

I think walking could provide that microspacing option we desire with one simple improvement. Try walking with lucina. Notice how it takes you a moment before you reach your max speed. What if this was instant instead? Walking is easy to input, so it wouldn't be an extra tech skill barrier. Of course, lucina/marth is probably the most extreme example in the game, sporting a low walking acceleration while also having the highest maximum walking speed in the game, so maybe it would be a less impactful change than I'm thinking. What do you all think?

You'd have to remove the ability to tiptoe by lightly tilting the stick to do this. Should we consider the fact most other fighting games don't have an adjustable walk speed when considering movement tech?

 

[Nekoo]

Look at GranBlue Fantasy Versus. It got a lot of interest from the FGC for being almost SF2 in its purity, but about a year after its release its playerbase shrank dramatically partly because, lacking any tech or execution requirements, the game feels "solved".

Imma jump in as an active GBFV player but.
When your game get released at the worst timing possible, it's first EVO get canceled after the horrible stuff that was found out. And you can only survive through Online Play which is only good with PC connections but your main playerbase is PS4.

I think that explain more why the game "shrunken" when it couldn't even have chance to prove itself. And I'd say do good for a game that literally mostly only had online for it's lifespan

 

[DJ3DS]

Mashing would be the dumb-downed version of it, there is still some nuances involved (like mashing 50/50s on rob dthrow) but i'd rather not have it be dependent on "how good am i at breaking my fingers". I think it's fine for pummels and breaking out of throws coz the reward is minimal, but man was I disappointed when they revealed banjo to have an other one of these.

Mashing might be the single worst intentional mechanic in the game. You could very reasonably just replace it with holding a button and retain all the value of the 50/50s it brings.

 

[RonNewcomb]

That seems like a bizarre thing to attribute to a game primarily lambasted for its terrible online functionality in the times of covid.
Disregarding that, it's got a pretty active online scene in spite of its online and new content still being produced to this day, things you can't really say for a lot of "dead" fighting games.

(It's online isn't any worse than most other Japanese delay-based solutions, and it's better than Smash's in any case.)

I spend more time in FGC circles than here, and this is just what I've seen and heard about Granblue. There was a team tourney where each team was 5 great players from a different game -- SFV, GG, UNIEL, etc. Many of the "gods" of Granblue are also such in other games like SFV; Granblue is easy enough to keep as a side game. The Granblue IP is huge in east Asia and iirc this is their first non-mobile videogame. It clearly had good budget. But you watch tourneys and you see the same combos, situations, etc. a lot. "The game feels solved."

The reason the rank-and-file SFV players were interested in the SF2-ish-ness of it was this: you can't play footsies or zoning in SFV. Too many burst-mobility, neutral-crash moves (many meterless), too many fireball-bypass moves, and if you try to footsie with limbs the priority system ensures you get crush-countered into a VTrigger pop combo for 2/3rds your lifebar. The world's greatest Sagat player prefers bottom-tier Nash over Sagat cause Sagat is in the wrong game.

SFV also has few combo routes, and it's another criticism, but Granblue addressed the above criticisms in how it plays.

To bring this back on-topic: yeah, I think having some execution bottlenecks and obscure tech is vital to a fighting game. Give me PPs and stepdashes and quarter-circle motions and DI. Just not 1-frame anything please.