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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    584

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
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One not oft discussed, but pretty important difference between Roy and Chrom, is that Chrom's low edgeguards (and edgeguards in general) are much better. His recovery controls a lot of conversations as it is the most CLEAR difference beyond the blade sweetspot, but I find his Up+B allows him to go much lower and edgeguard much more effectively at zones many characters consider "optimal" to recover from.

If you combine this with his Bair (extremely, EXTREMELY strong move) it means that if you ever have to go low against Chrom you have to really, REALLY respect the Bair in situations where Roy wouldn't be able to enforce that respect, both due to his Up+B actually going less high than Chrom's, and also because he has to be very close to your body to make his aerials effective in a scenario like this.

Also Chrom's Uair is a much stronger "Keep you in disadvantage" tool, but that's fairly obvious.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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May 7, 2009
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wait mario is a top tier now? or do you mean high tier? there is a difference.
Like Swagguy said, I consider :ultmario: top tier. He was 9th on Orion Stats season 2 and is 12th season 3. He's got good representation with players like Dark Wizzy getting good results and Prodigy beating MKLeo. In terms of stats Mario has top tier frame data, a ladder that kills off the top at 80-100% from what I've seen, Usmash is a great quick read for KOing that's relatively hard to punish for a smash, he's like a rushdown but with well rounded specials including a great reflector that gimps extremely well.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Mario MU spread is pretty good. He can have issues swords but he only really struggles vs Swordies that can consistently space him out or make it hard to approach. i.e :ultlucina::ultshulk::ultcloud:. :ultpalutena: fits in due being super hard to appoach for Mario in general

Mario does okay vs Chroy . Since :ultroy: has to generally get closer and take more risks vs him, and Fludd is a big equalizer vs:ultchrom: as it just wrecks his recovery

However Mario also can struggle if he falls?behind vs characters that can either camp him out with better mobility and not having any reason to approach or risk anything i.e :ultzss::ultsonic:
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Mario MU spread is pretty good. He can have issues swords but he only really struggles vs Swordies that can consistently space him out or make it hard to approach. i.e :ultlucina::ultshulk::ultcloud:. :ultpalutena: fits in due being super hard to appoach for Mario in general

However Mario also can struggle if he falls?behind vs characters that can either camp him out with better mobility and not having any reason to approach or risk anything i.e :ultzss::ultsonic:
I terms of matchups, :ultlucina::ultshulk::ultcloud: and :ultpalutena: are probably the four worst ones he has. He doesn't really lose too many matchups, but those are the main 4 that come to mind. I also think he can struggle against :ultyoshi: and :ultpeach: mainly due to Yoshi being hard for him to kill and combo while Peach can deal damage faster than him and outrange him. I think :ultmarth: is losing as well but nowhere near as bad as Smash 4. The only other matchup I see him definitely losing is :ultgnw: due to his range and the fact that he's very hard to edgeguard.

You mentioned :ultzss: and :ultsonic: and I'd say they are both probably a hard even. They are both pretty easy for Mario to juggle (even with ZSS having Flip Kick) and he can edgeguard both of them, but yeah, the superior mobility does give him trouble against them. I also know that Big D (best ICs player) thinks that this matchup is +2 for :ulticeclimbers: and a better MU for them than :ultdoc: (I doubt there are any other characters where that might be true except maybe :ultlucario:), but I really don't believe that it's that bad of an MU for Mario. I'd say that one's even as well. It is worth noting that Mario arguably has some of the best matchups against :ultrob::ultfox: and :ultpikachu: across the cast, all of whom are almost consistently considered top tier at this point so he has that going for him.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,201
We have some spicy :ultfalcon: tech.


Makes his tournaround dash a bit faster. Characters like :ultlittlemac: also benefits from this, but Falcon is easily the biggest benefactor.
His tournaround dash is still weak in comparison everyone else's, but at least Falcon still has his incredible dash speed and air speed to help compensate, as well as the usual Falcon-powered reward.

----------------------------------------------

Btw, it is Wednesday now, and I am kind of surprised OrionStats hasn't been updated from the past weekend.
 

AxelVDP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
96
We're in the year 2020 and I still see people talking about absolutely nothing
what does it matter if a character is top tier or high tier? what does it matter to define a list of arbitrary size of "strongest" characters? and why is that size 5 (or 10) to begin with?
it's just semantics, and borderline useless semantics at that. by discussing it you're just wasting your time and reiterating what has already been said countless time in years past, just with slightly different labels. those arguments lead absolutely nowhere.
What should be talked about is what characters that are "good enough" (meaning basically the entire roster in this game) can do and how they interact with eachother, take SolidSense latest posts as an example

also guys, stay safe and wash your hands.
 

Rizen

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Everyone knows :ultyounglink:got buffed but what does each buff mean? I've used him in a couple tournaments since the buffs and here's my breakdown of how impactful they each were.

Jab1 got 2 frames shaved off it's start and endlag making it a f4 move rather than f6. This is huge. You'd think 2 frames wouldn't matter much but in the context of YL's fastest ground attack they make a world of difference. YL went from getting out buttoned by Chrom's f5 jab to having a faster GTFO option. Considering the majority of swordie jabs are f5 YL's jab went from one of the worst in the game to an above average jab. I can't tell you how many times in the past I've been outbuttoned by someone like Banjo jabbing me (his is f4). One of YL's big weaknesses was subaverage frame data on the ground. Now instead of being forced to retreat, give up stage positioning and reset neutral, YL can use jab as a GTFO option.
Offtopic, K.Rool's f4 jab is one of the reasons I never considered him bottom tier.

Usmash has more knockback growth. YL's Usmash was terrible. It didn't KO until 140%+ and was a huge commitment at 69 total frames. Now it kills more around 120 something %. Usmash was never YL's go to kill option and still isn't. He can Dair, Dtilt>Uair/upB, or combo off boomerang much more safely. Usmash still isn't his most powerful smash (it's Fsmash). So what does the buff do?
First it gives YL an OoS kill f10 at reasonable %s. That isn't great but it still has to be respected. Second, It makes YL confirms off aerials much more consistent. YL used to have to Fair1>land>Dsmash or Dtilt>jump upB to kill but it had a finicky % window because Fair 1 would pop up the opponent so Dtilt missed after 110-130% and it varied with characters. Now at 120%+ YL can simply Fair1>Usmash and it kills. YL could also Bair1>Fsmash but small opponents could be missed when YL stepped forward to Fsmash. Now he can simply use Usmash for kills. This also compliments his buffs to Zair since he can combo it into Usmash at kill %s. In general Usmash is a lot more reliable to combo into.

Uair got more KBG. Uair used to be laughably weak. Even in the air it wouldn't kill until 160%. Now that it's buffed YL can use Dtilt>Uair as a kill at reasonable yet high %s.

Fthrow kills. YL used to only have a stock cap kill Uthrow at 200%+. Now Fthrow at the ledge starts killing at 140%ish. This is huge for a character who conditions opponents to shield (with projectiles). YL not only has low-mid % combos off Dthrow>Uair, you also have to respect his grab at kill %s. Any time you can kill off grab it's important because the rock/paper/scissors mechanic with shielding in smash. This (with Usmash) also improves his ledge trapping. YL can bait a getup attack with Nairs>Shield grab it and Fthow kill someone on the ledge.
IMO a Bthrow would have been better because YL often gets cornered by opponents but Fthrow is still really good.

Zair went from f12>f9 and now combos into (land) DA at low-high %s and Usmash at kill %s. Zair used to have no followups and only do 4.5% iirc so it was pretty useless. Now it's very situational but useful. If YL has room he's safer throwing out a boomerang, which combos into Fair. And he already had combos from Fair1/Bair1. Zair is difficult to land with due to YL's high jumps and it's limited hitbox (only the tip hits and it's small). You have to already be coming down to combo off Zair. So it's not something you want to fish for. However there are times when Boomerang doesn't work. Hitboxes cancel out boomerang but Zair pushes through them. Zair isn't affected by reflectors either. I was playing vs a Hero who got bounce and Zair was incredibly helpful zoning him. It generally gives YL an option when other options fail.

So how much better is YL overall? I used to say he was a counterpick character who needed a secondary for bad MUs. Swordies were faster than him on the ground and had better hitboxes. Now YL has a faster jab. His CQC issues have improved significantly. He used to have a hard time killing due to weak options. His killing issues have also improved significantly. He still has a bad disadvantage state vs big disjoints due to his mediocre air speed but his bad MUs are much more manageable. I have no doubt he's solo-viable now. He's certainly no lower than high tier. Is he top tier? That's hard to say. He might be but I think we should see if his results continue first.
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
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Jab1 got 2 frames shaved off it's start and endlag making it a f4 move rather than f6. This is huge. You'd think 2 frames wouldn't matter much but in the context of YL's fastest ground attack they make a world of difference. YL went from getting out buttoned by Chrom's f5 jab to having a faster GTFO option. Considering the majority of swordie jabs are f5 YL's jab went from one of the worst in the game to an above average jab. I can't tell you how many times in the past I've been outbuttoned by someone like Banjo jabbing me (his is f4). One of YL's big weaknesses was subaverage frame data on the ground. Now instead of being forced to retreat, give up stage positioning and reset neutral, YL can use jab as a GTFO option.
Offtopic, K.Rool's f4 jab is one of the reasons I never considered him bottom tier.
Yeah a lot of people tend to underrate grounded CQC options. When “low tiers” like :ultkirby::ultdoc::ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultbrawler::ultpit::ultpiranha: get dissed on about their inability to escape disadvantage or control the ground, you gotta remember that having quick options like those f2-4 jabs makes a ton of difference. Part of the reason the buffs :ultkirby: got in 6.0.0 are so good is that his jab went from a very fast f3 to f2, which in those tight get off me situations makes a toooooooon of difference. TBH part of the reason characters like :ultfox::ultgreninja::ultjoker::ultluigi::ultmario::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultryu::ultken::ultsnake::ultsonic::ult_terry::ultwolf::ultyoshi::ultwario::ultzss:are so good is that they can just outbutton opponents and stuff out their other options. If :ultpalutena: had the kind of CQC options literally any other character I just mentioned in replacement of her current ones, she would be the best in the game without a doubt in my mind. Just imagining her stuffing out all of your up close game gives me chills.
 

Tri Knight

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Aug 10, 2015
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783
Everyone knows :ultyounglink:got buffed but what does each buff mean? I've used him in a couple tournaments since the buffs and here's my breakdown of how impactful they each were.

Jab1 got 2 frames shaved off it's start and endlag making it a f4 move rather than f6. This is huge. You'd think 2 frames wouldn't matter much but in the context of YL's fastest ground attack they make a world of difference. YL went from getting out buttoned by Chrom's f5 jab to having a faster GTFO option. Considering the majority of swordie jabs are f5 YL's jab went from one of the worst in the game to an above average jab. I can't tell you how many times in the past I've been outbuttoned by someone like Banjo jabbing me (his is f4). One of YL's big weaknesses was subaverage frame data on the ground. Now instead of being forced to retreat, give up stage positioning and reset neutral, YL can use jab as a GTFO option.
Offtopic, K.Rool's f4 jab is one of the reasons I never considered him bottom tier.

Usmash has more knockback growth. YL's Usmash was terrible. It didn't KO until 140%+ and was a huge commitment at 69 total frames. Now it kills more around 120 something %. Usmash was never YL's go to kill option and still isn't. He can Dair, Dtilt>Uair/upB, or combo off boomerang much more safely. Usmash still isn't his most powerful smash (it's Fsmash). So what does the buff do?
First it gives YL an OoS kill f9 at reasonable %s. That isn't great but it still has to be respected. Second, It makes YL confirms off aerials much more consistent. YL used to have to Fair1>land>Dsmash or Dtilt>jump upB to kill but it had a finicky % window because Fair 1 would pop up the opponent so Dtilt missed after 110-130% and it varied with characters. Now at 120%+ YL can simply Fair1>Usmash and it kills. YL could also Bair1>Fsmash but small opponents could be missed when YL stepped forward to Fsmash. Now he can simply use Usmash for kills. This also compliments his buffs to Zair since he can combo it into Usmash at kill %s. In general Usmash is a lot more reliable to combo into.

Uair got more KBG. Uair used to be laughably weak. Even in the air it wouldn't kill until 160%. Now that it's buffed YL can use Dtilt>Uair as a kill at reasonable yet high %s.

Fthrow kills. YL used to have a stock cap kill Uthrow at 200%+. Now Fthrow at the ledge starts killing at 140%ish. This is huge for a character who conditions opponents to shield (with projectiles). YL not only has low-mid % combos off Dthrow>Uair, you also have to respect his grab at kill %s. Any time you can kill off grab it's important because the rock/paper/scissors mechanic with shielding in smash. This (with Usmash) also improves his ledge trapping. YL can bait a getup attack with Nairs>Shield grab it and Fthow kill someone on the ledge.
IMO a Bthrow would have been better because YL often gets cornered by opponents but Fthrow is still really good.

Zair went from f12>f9 and now combos into (land) DA at low-high %s and Usmash at kill %s. Zair used to have no followups and only do 4.5% iirc so it was pretty useless. Now it's very situational but useful. If YL has room he's safer throwing out a boomerang, which combos into Fair. And he already had combos from Fair1/Bair1. Zair is difficult to land with due to YL's high jumps and it's limited hitbox (only the tip hits and it's small). You have to already be coming down to combo off Zair. So it's not something you want to fish for. However there are times when Boomerang doesn't work. Hitboxes cancel out boomerang but Zair pushes through them. Zair isn't affected by reflectors either. I was playing vs a Hero who got bounce and Zair was incredibly helpful zoning him. It generally gives YL an option when other options fail.

So how much better is YL overall? I used to say he was a counterpick character who needed a secondary for bad MUs. Swordies were faster than him on the ground and had better hitboxes. Now YL has a faster jab. His CQC issues have improved significantly. He used to have a hard time killing due to weak options. His killing issues have also improved significantly. He still has a bad disadvantage state vs big disjoints due to his mediocre air speed but his bad MUs are much more manageable. I have no doubt he's solo-viable now. He's certainly no lower than high tier. Is he top tier? That's hard to say. He might be but I think we should see if his results continue first.
One of the things I was trying to stress post-YL buffs was how they really focused on making his grounded CQC a lot more viable. He can technically rush in and outbutton a lot of characters that he struggles at spacing against OR he can camp them. That is actually huge for some of his harder or even weird-feeling MUs. And on top of that, he's got a much better fthrow. Not just because it can kill earlier, but because the launch will actually set opponents up in much more ideal areas offstage before kill percent.

I never claim top tier for any character without the proper elements to back them up but his spreadsheet practically screams EASY high tier right now and definitely might be on the higher end even.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
If :ultpalutena: had the kind of CQC options literally any other character I just mentioned in replacement of her current ones, she would be the best in the game without a doubt in my mind. Just imagining her stuffing out all of your up close game gives me chills.
Yeah. If she had a grounded move that came out faster than frame 5 (her current fastest option is her frame 6 dash attack) she probably would be the best in the game. imagine being able to mash jab on the ground to get out of combos or if she had a faster option to set up tech chases than frame 6.

"When “low tiers” like :ultkirby::ultdoc::ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultbrawler::ultpit::ultpiranha: get dissed on about their inability to escape disadvantage or control the ground, you gotta remember that having quick options like those f2-4 jabs makes a ton of difference.
All of these characters have a frame 2-4 jab except :ultincineroar:. While having a f-2 to 4 jab helps, having multiple fast grounded options like :ultdoc::ultbrawler: or :ultkirby: give them more/better options to control space on the ground with, set up for tech chases, or outbutton the opponent, which is just one of several reasons as to why I view them as better characters overall than the other three.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
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OrionStats have been updated late yesterday: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

:ultrob: has overtaken :ultwolf:, once again placing 1st in the rankings. This is most likely contributed to Zackray winning Maesuma with mostly R.O.B. (plus the character being very popular with high success).
:ultwario: I am not sure if this happened last time, but Wario has overtaken :ultpeach: to be 6th in the rankings, now being the gatekeeper of having at least 200 points in the rankings.
:ultroy: is now 2 spots above :ultlucina:, having now overtaken :ultmario:. This is likely due to Kola's win at Clash of the Carolinas III with mostly Roy.
:ultyoshi::ultmegaman: Not sure why, but both Yoshi and Mega Man has taken a notable rise to 22nd and 23rd, respectively.
:ulttoonlink: has taken a small rise to 36th, now only two spots below :ultlink:.


The 41st-48th placements have shifted around quite a bit.
:ultike: has risen above :ultdk: to be 41st.
:ultbyleth: has dropped below :ultsheik: to be 44th.
:ultrobin: has dropped to 48th, no longer being tied with :ultzelda:.

:ultryu: has taken a significant rise to 47th, likely due to Munekin placing 3rd at Maesuma with solo Ryu. He is starting to catch up with :ult_terry:, who sits comfortably at 39th, but still long ways to go to reach Ken's 17th placement.
:ultincineroar: has fallen out of top 50 to be ranked 52nd.
:ultrichter: has fallen even further to be 55th, the lowest he has ever been throughout the entirety of Ultimate so far. The Belmonts has definitely feeling the effects of stagnation in their metagames.
:ultbrawler: has taken a large rise to 61st, now being ranked above characters like :ultvillager::ultmewtwo::ultcorrinf::ultlucario:.

Something to note is that :ultcorrinf: hasn't had her points changed ever since the week of Glitch 8 (aka Cosmos vs Dabuz).
She has 13.5 points ever since that week. As a result, her placing is starting to approach the bottom tier levels, currently being ranked 64th.


Edit: Forgot to include this.
DLC Rankings (3/4/20)
:ultjoker: (4th) > :ult_terry: (39th) > :ultbyleth: (44th) > :ulthero: (51st) > :ultbanjokazooie: (53rd) > :ultpiranha: (71st)

Joker remained the same. Terry and Banjo slightly increased. Byleth and Hero has taken a decrease.
PPlant is now even farther deeper in the shadow realm, now being tied with Ganondorf as both the 5th lowest ranked character in the rankings, but also tied for the lowest ranked super-heavyweight in the rankings.
 
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Das Koopa

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shift1.png


monthly updates on character shifts return after like 16 months lol
 

Rizen

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Someone posted T's MU chart for :ultlink: that had TL and YL as solid advantages for him. I've got to say, T knows something I don't because I ran into another good YL player and decided to try Link for the MU and it did not go well. YL is really good at zoning Link outside his reach and Link has poor approach options. IMO it's the complete opposite and TL and YL have advantages vs Link.

It would be interesting to see T's Link in that MU; it might clear some things up.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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View attachment 264883

monthly updates on character shifts return after like 16 months lol
Pikachu has fallen off with no ESAM huh. I feel like to really show Pikachu's top 5, we need someone other than ESAM to win a major with the character because otherwise it seems as though ESAM is carrying the character and is better on paper than in practice.

Either that or the character has a stupidly high learning curve, but Peach and Daisy are still doing well even if they're decreasing by more percentage and their learning curve is nuts.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Nov 22, 2014
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I am a perrenial short seller of Belmonts. 55th place is till too high, there is still room for him to drop more. Falco definitely has a better matchup spread, as do several of the low tiers surrounding him. In fact I have a running bet he will be bottom 5 at some point without significant buffs, particularly as everyone around him gets buffs. Its damn sad.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
So I've looked over tier list after tier list and have an honest question for you guys: Why is Yoshi not considered top tier? I know that there aren't a lot of high-level tournament results to back up the claim, but could it simply be the fact that the pros are sleeping on him? Consider how broken some of his kit are...

-Excellent mobility
-Unpokeable shield
-Easy tech chase setups/kill confirms
-Great projectile
-Arguably the best Nair/OoS option in the game (frame 3 sex kick with decent range)
-Armor on his double jump
-Tons of priority on his aerials
-Shield breaking down B that can setup out of Jab 1
-Decent command grab
-Fast, consistent Fair spike
-Can cover his ledge recovers with Egg toss which now bounces along the ground

Granted, his normal grabs are kinda slow and he has an issue with swordies, but then again, doesn't everybody? I'm not saying he's the best character by a long shot, but I honestly don't know why so few people play him or why he isn't regarded as incredibly dangerous. Any ideas from a gameplay point of view?
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
You know, for all of the talk about who is/isn't Top Tier, we never really seem to talk about who is worst characters are. IMO, the worst characters in Ultimate are the ones who just don't work (because of the engine or because of their own limitations).

If I had to pick a list of my personal contenders for Bottom 5, I'd choose :ultlittlemac::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultkrool:. All of these characters are pretty limited, and lack the tools to deal with most of the cast. While :ultlittlemac: is probably the worst in the game, I could see :ultincineroar: or :ultganondorf: also coming to be considered the worst as time goes on.

I feel like :ultlucario: is actually pretty close to being Bottom 5, but having aura does make him better than the rest of these characters, even if he's just as limited as the other Bottom 5 characters are most of the time.
 

Lacrimosa

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Mar 31, 2019
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So I've looked over tier list after tier list and have an honest question for you guys: Why is Yoshi not considered top tier? I know that there aren't a lot of high-level tournament results to back up the claim, but could it simply be the fact that the pros are sleeping on him? Consider how broken some of his kit are...

-Excellent mobility
-Unpokeable shield
-Easy tech chase setups/kill confirms
-Great projectile
-Arguably the best Nair/OoS option in the game (frame 3 sex kick with decent range)
-Armor on his double jump
-Tons of priority on his aerials
-Shield breaking down B that can setup out of Jab 1
-Decent command grab
-Fast, consistent Fair spike
-Can cover his ledge recovers with Egg toss which now bounces along the ground

Granted, his normal grabs are kinda slow and he has an issue with swordies, but then again, doesn't everybody? I'm not saying he's the best character by a long shot, but I honestly don't know why so few people play him or why he isn't regarded as incredibly dangerous. Any ideas from a gameplay point of view?
Not saying anything about Yoshi, although I think he's up there:

Yoshidora rarely competes and he lost both these sets but probably still watch-worthy (and his wins happened off-stream and/or they weren't uploaded seperately.
He finished 4th at this, I think, B-tier event which is remarkable in Japan where a lot of crazy stuff happens.





(Also if someone comes across Rizeasu's Zelda in this tournament then I#ve to say that his Zelda play was one of the worst I've ever seen from a top-player)
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
:ultyoshi: has a few things that I see as drawbacks to playing him. For one thing, his recovery is very limited offstage. You have double jump and air dodge like everybody else, but that up-b isn't a real recovery and more of a recovery boost/mixup than anything else. He does have great air mobility to make up for this, but personally I don't see the tradeoff as totally worth it. :ultmario:'s recovery is widely viewed as great, despite him having worse overall air mobility and arguably less mixup potential, yet the versatile and safe up-b vastly improves his recovery in the eyes of many. His grab game is annoyingly bad, with his best option out of a grab usually being a grab release mixup. That isn't particularly rewarding unless you get a down-b shield break and for Yoshi, it's hard to land the grab in the first place. And lastly, some of his moves just don't seem to work. Side-b is garbage, neutral-b is mostly just a mixup, down-b has limited utility, up tilt has janky hitboxes, his throws are really bad, and overall the character has some generally boring traits that make other characters overshadow him. I think he's like :ultbowser::ultcloud::ultdiddy::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultlink::ultluigi::ultness::ultrosalina::ultryu::ultken::ultsamus::ultsheik::ultsonic::ult_terry::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink: in that he is at the upper echelons of the tier list, but short of top tier in a few ways.

My personal bottom tier is :ultbayonetta::ultkrool::ultlittlemac::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff:and maaaaaaybe :ultcorrin::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultpit::ultkingdedede: in some order with Mac at the bottom. I think Bayo, K. Rool, Isabelle, and Puff are all significantly overrated by many and truthfully, all suck. Bayo has bad hitboxes, the worst multi-hits in the game, poor KO potential, and arguably the worst framedata in the game and certainly the worst relative to her range and weight. K. Rool has a terrible hurtbox, a very vulnerable and predictable recovery, a predictable approach and gameplan, and an overreliance on cheesing to get kills. Mac has poor range, a short distanced and predictable recovery, underwhelming combos, a bad grab game, and a highly unfavorable air game in every aspect, in a game where at least 60% of the fighting is done in the air. Isabelle has limited combos, limited kills, dysfunctional parts to her moveset, low mobility, low range, a vulnerable recovery, and a linear gameplan. Puff has incredibly bad endurance, a poor ground game, low range, few kill moves, a terrible grab game, many situational and/or irrelevant moves, tons of risks, and not enough reward for a glass cannon. TL;DR they suck

Who do you all think has the best/most well rounded/versatile moveset? Like, whose kit can deal with the most situations, and has the fewest useless or irrelevant moves? I think of :ultmario:, :ultpikachu::ultpichu:, :ultkirby:, :ultjoker:, :ultincineroar:, :ultshulk:(though Monado arts let him cheat).
 

Firox

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Who do you all think has the best/most well rounded/versatile moveset? Like, whose kit can deal with the most situations, and has the fewest useless or irrelevant moves? I think of :ultmario:, :ultpikachu::ultpichu:, :ultkirby:, :ultjoker:, :ultincineroar:, :ultshulk:(though Monado arts let him cheat).
Off the top of my head, I'd say :ultmario: :ultwolf::ultjoker::ultpikachu::ultwario::ultrob::ultgreninja::ulthero: have the most well-rounded kits. Hero might be considered controversial with this, but having seen some REALLY good Hero players, I have to say that his down B options cover a lot of weaknesses if you're fast enough to pick the right ones. His bounce invalidates spammers, accelerate gives him insane mobility, Zoom is a free recovery and Oomph/Psych up buff his damage output. Couple that with great sword reach and the fact that all of this specials have awesome range and damage output potential, I think he can compete with the others for a good all-round moveset.

My bottom tier would be :ultlittlemac::ultjigglypuff::ultmetaknight::ultrichter::ultkirby:.
 
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L9999

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:ultrichter: has a shot for being the worst character in the game honestly. Just his recovery by default makes him inconsistent. It is not "exploitable," it is total trash. At some % ranges, a Down Smash is gg, even with his airdodge, jump, and chain he cannot recover, because his air speed is that horrible. You don't even need to edgeguard Richter, any mistake he does at the ledge he is dead, but just for giggles, he dies to the simplest of edgeguards.

If that wasn't inconsistency enough for you, Richter also has thin spaguettis for hitboxes and a tipper mechanic. :ultmarth:at least has arching hitboxes that can cover a large amount of space, Richter is stuck with attacks that are not only hard to land, they also leave a large and obvious blindspot, and his aerials are also very punishable on parry. Oh, disadvantage also sucks, he is a sack of potatoes in the air. I genuinely believe that if Richter didn't have Up B OoS he would be as unplayable as any Melee low tier of your choice.

Richter's gameplan is also very easily torn apart, his disadvantage state and reliance on the cross give room for some really awful MUs. Like:ultrob:, a character whose kit seems specially manufactured to delete (delete, not beat) Richter. Other awful MUs include but are not limited to :ultzss::ultsquirtle::ultwolf::ultsonic::ultshulk::ultpalutena::ultpikachu::ultpichu::ultyoshi::ultfalco:and:ultsamus:. Just having very bad MUs against :ultsquirtle::ultpalutena::ultrob:, three popular meta characters, is enough to guarantee competitive failure, but Richter is so plagued with awful/precarious MUs it will be a miracle if he gets past pools. As players hone their punish game and tech skill, Richter is only guaranteed to drop further. He will likely never get buffed because casuals and scrubs hate him, they think he is broken, which is laughable.
 

Lacrimosa

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I have banned Little Mac from my worst characters in Smash.
Is he easy too exploit? Sure.
Mac is a very momentum based character that will blow you up if you aren't careful. The same thing also goes for :ultganondorf: but Ganon has much worse approach options even though he has actual aerials and can kill but the player has to take a much bigger risk if Ganon misses. Easily the worst character for me.
Then we have :ultjigglypuff: and while she has a dAir->Rest combo it's not easy to pull off, especially against top-players, i.e. in a player segment where tiers matter. Puff has to play very linear and while she has good airspeed, she has to land eventually and her ground game is awful and a lot of anti-airs beat her aerial approaches.
:ultisabelle: seems like a big gimmick. All her specials are easily avoidable and she has to rely on slingshot and while that's a good spacing tool it doesn't do much in the long run although it can kill but otherwise there doesn't seem to be much.
I've already given my opinion on the Pits and looked into their framedata and hitboxes. Doesn't seem to be that flashy although :ultpit:'s arrows should give him the edge above :ultdarkpit:.
Then it becomes a bit trickier (maybe my bottom tier only consists of 4 characters but :ultlittlemac:isn't part of that).

Maybe he really is the 5th worst character in my opinion but characters like:ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultcorrinf: :ultrichter:are also in contention for being that low. The latter due to their very stagnant meta nowadays. Lima also seems to have dropped :ultbayonetta: in favor of :ultpeach:, so there's that as well.

The rest of the cast seems to be in solid mid-tier range, even characters like :ultdoc:(with Tsumusuto, Japan):ultbowserjr: (with Young Eevey, NL )and perhaps :ultpiranha:, but Brood's run with PP happened long ago and he uses Banjo now
 

Hydreigonfan01

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:ultrichter: has a shot for being the worst character in the game honestly. Just his recovery by default makes him inconsistent. It is not "exploitable," it is total trash. At some % ranges, a Down Smash is gg, even with his airdodge, jump, and chain he cannot recover, because his air speed is that horrible. You don't even need to edgeguard Richter, any mistake he does at the ledge he is dead, but just for giggles, he dies to the simplest of edgeguards.

If that wasn't inconsistency enough for you, Richter also has thin spaguettis for hitboxes and a tipper mechanic. :ultmarth:at least has arching hitboxes that can cover a large amount of space, Richter is stuck with attacks that are not only hard to land, they also leave a large and obvious blindspot, and his aerials are also very punishable on parry. Oh, disadvantage also sucks, he is a sack of potatoes in the air. I genuinely believe that if Richter didn't have Up B OoS he would be as unplayable as any Melee low tier of your choice.

Richter's gameplan is also very easily torn apart, his disadvantage state and reliance on the cross give room for some really awful MUs. Like:ultrob:, a character whose kit seems specially manufactured to delete (delete, not beat) Richter. Other awful MUs include but are not limited to :ultzss::ultsquirtle::ultwolf::ultsonic::ultshulk::ultpalutena::ultpikachu::ultpichu::ultyoshi::ultfalco:and:ultsamus:. Just having very bad MUs against :ultsquirtle::ultpalutena::ultrob:, three popular meta characters, is enough to guarantee competitive failure, but Richter is so plagued with awful/precarious MUs it will be a miracle if he gets past pools. As players hone their punish game and tech skill, Richter is only guaranteed to drop further. He will likely never get buffed because casuals and scrubs hate him, they think he is broken, which is laughable.
Simon/Richter aren't good, but they're probably on the bottom of mid tier or low tier. Riddles got 13th at Super Smash Con (Including beating Dabuz) using a mixture between him and Ken, and Shuton uses him as a counterpick. Plus, in terms of recovery both players have had ways to mix up their recovery such as Shuton infamously down airing a Pikmin, or Riddles down airing a Razor Leaf.
 
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Firox

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I have banned Little Mac from my worst characters in Smash.
Is he easy too exploit? Sure.
Mac is a very momentum based character that will blow you up if you aren't careful. The same thing also goes for :ultganondorf: but Ganon has much worse approach options even though he has actual aerials and can kill but the player has to take a much bigger risk if Ganon misses. Easily the worst character for me.
Then we have :ultjigglypuff: and while she has a dAir->Rest combo it's not easy to pull off, especially against top-players, i.e. in a player segment where tiers matter. Puff has to play very linear and while she has good airspeed, she has to land eventually and her ground game is awful and a lot of anti-airs beat her aerial approaches.
:ultisabelle: seems like a big gimmick. All her specials are easily avoidable and she has to rely on slingshot and while that's a good spacing tool it doesn't do much in the long run although it can kill but otherwise there doesn't seem to be much.
I've already given my opinion on the Pits and looked into their framedata and hitboxes. Doesn't seem to be that flashy although :ultpit:'s arrows should give him the edge above :ultdarkpit:.
Then it becomes a bit trickier (maybe my bottom tier only consists of 4 characters but :ultlittlemac:isn't part of that).

Maybe he really is the 5th worst character in my opinion but characters like:ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultkirby::ultcorrinf: :ultrichter:are also in contention for being that low. The latter due to their very stagnant meta nowadays. Lima also seems to have dropped :ultbayonetta: in favor of :ultpeach:, so there's that as well.

The rest of the cast seems to be in solid mid-tier range, even characters like :ultdoc:(with Tsumusuto, Japan):ultbowserjr: (with Young Eevey, NL )and perhaps :ultpiranha:, but Brood's run with PP happened long ago and he uses Banjo now
I think :ultkrool: gets **** on a lot more than he deserves. People really underestimate some well-placed super armor and his grab range is deceptively good. I honestly think that in the right hands, he could easily be mid tier. I'd definitely put him over :ultpiranha::ultjigglypuff::ultisabelle::ultrichter::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultganondorf::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar:.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
So I've looked over tier list after tier list and have an honest question for you guys: Why is Yoshi not considered top tier? I know that there aren't a lot of high-level tournament results to back up the claim, but could it simply be the fact that the pros are sleeping on him? Consider how broken some of his kit are...

-Excellent mobility
-Unpokeable shield
-Easy tech chase setups/kill confirms
-Great projectile
-Arguably the best Nair/OoS option in the game (frame 3 sex kick with decent range)
-Armor on his double jump
-Tons of priority on his aerials
-Shield breaking down B that can setup out of Jab 1
-Decent command grab
-Fast, consistent Fair spike
-Can cover his ledge recovers with Egg toss which now bounces along the ground

Granted, his normal grabs are kinda slow and he has an issue with swordies, but then again, doesn't everybody? I'm not saying he's the best character by a long shot, but I honestly don't know why so few people play him or why he isn't regarded as incredibly dangerous. Any ideas from a gameplay point of view?
:ultyoshi: is fine IMO, He's very close to being Top Tier and I do see his usage trending up as the meta progresses, not down like :4yoshi:. To start, he has a really good matchup spread against non-swordies and :ultpalutena:. He doesn't have any huge struggles against projectiles, zoners, trappers, since his movement and approach are pretty good. He is also going to deal a lot of damage through a juggle or a combo once he gets in no matter what character he's facing, even if it's a swordie or Palu. He also has amazing edgeguarding, good hitboxes, decent OOS options, he's decently hard to edgeguard for some characters, and he's not too easy to combo himself. Again, swordies and Palutena give him trouble and characters who are fast and are decently heavy may also be kind of hard for him at times. Overall though, he's very solid and I do see him as being a solid counterpick against characters like :ultsheik::ultfox::ultmario: and :ultrob: if they stay/become relevant in the meta. You could probably solo-main him since I don't think he has any unwinnable matchups, but it would be hard.
 

FruitLoop

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Dec 31, 2018
Messages
125
Imo there's only 4 characters I consider bottom tier:

:ultlittlemac::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ultkingdedede: are the four culprits that come to my mind. I've been debating about putting :ultdk: here as well but he actually is performing a little better in tournaments recently (41st on the OrionStats) and being a bit faster while having an air game unlike :ultlittlemac:actually makes the character a bit less vulnerable to lame play which I will be talking a bit about here.

The issue with the 4 characters listed is that they physically have NO way to deal with lame play. They can be entirely beaten out if you just choose to play degenerative as either a rushdown character or a zoner (It's a bit harder of a case to make for :ultlittlemac:if he were to pick FD or maybe battlefield regarding runaway camping and simple zoning given his great mobility but you can try to force him to jump in a lot of other scenarios and he becomes a huge sitting duck). The 3 heavyweights listed here have physically no mobility and have to rely on their CQC to do things while being so slow while still having sub-par Frame Data. You do get a few gimmicks potentially such as having a burst option like Warlock Kick, :ultincineroar:'s revenge, maybe you can force approaches at mid-range with gordos or something but it clearly isn't enough to really help any of these characters much (Revenge can help against spammers and bad habits but you still have to be touching the opponent in order to you know, make Revenge scary and you can just choose to runaway from :ultincineroar: the entire match and not care about revenge).

:ultlittlemac::ultincineroar: and ESPECIALLY :ultkingdedede: have suprisingly bad reward for accomplishing their gameplan due to how their kit doesn't allow for a consistent advantage state whether it be lackluster mobility (Incineroar has AMAZING normals but his mobility is so slow to the point where it's a struggle for him to get mileage off of a lot of things unless its a hard read or frame trap) or just inconsistent normals (Why is Mac's Up-tilt Unsafe on Hit?). :ultkingdedede:'s case is more of an issue regarding Kill Power as moves like Up-Aerial are famously known for not killing with good DI (Actual Floaties like Luigi can survive :ultkingdedede: Up-Air at 140 with rage on the top of FD if they DI Away) and he has to over-rely on Back-Aerial and his semi-slow Frame 17 Up-Smash OoS (It also can randomly sourspot and it is very unsafe on hit which means that :ultkingdedede: can be randomly punished for making the correct decisions).

I feel like the 4 characters listed mostly are at the bottom since there's too many matchups where the opponent can just decide to not abide by their gameplan so they have to get out of their comfort zone to do things all while having horrible disadvantage states and while having mostly bad or mediocre recoveries (DDD thankfully has a good recovery but he has an awful time getting off of ledge and his slow mobility and low jumps makes it really easy to intercept his recovery if he hasn't Up-B'd yet).

:ultkrool: gets a slight pass on these issues since having two ACTUAL projectiles (Gordos don't count since their application is either for ledge trap pressure or for a mid-range frame-trap/hitbox extension tool) while also having a little more lenience on when things don't go his way since :ultkrool:'s Fair and generally safe Nair at least gives him a slightly more reliable neutral game plan compared to the 4 even if it's not great + Having an actual Kill confirm unlike a character like :ultkingdedede: in the form of Down-Throw Up-Tilt alongside having a generally better OoS game is overall extremely useful while :ultkrool: still gets the ledge dominance of :ultkingdedede:.

These 4 characters needs buffs the most (As long as it isn't excessive as all 4 of these characters can become incredibly unfun to play against and become broken if given the wrong buffs). Generally I'd buff :ultganondorf: and :ultkingdedede: first due to the former getting no patch changes and the latter unfortunately got nerfed harder than almost all of the top tiers in Ultimate through Ultimate's entire patch history ironically (The indirect changes done to patches also heavily nerfed :ultkingdedede: outside of projectiles being slightly easier to counterplay by shielding which makes camping against him a little harder but then again gordos got HUGELY nerfed from the changes so it's more of a nerf. The shield changes may have buffed :ultkingdedede:'s shield too but it was only by a small margin and it makes his ability to poke shields much worse which was one of the main ways :ultkingdedede: finds his win condition for each stock or for each neutral interaction).
 

meleebrawler

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Is the balance and/or roster size at the point where just not being played or talked about is enough to be declared bottom tier? Why are characters like Meta Knight and Mewtwo suddenly being considered for this? I always thought being an honest mid tier was in some ways a worse fate than actually being poor, but never like this...

I dare someone who only experienced Ridley's disadvantage to do this.
 
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Arthur97

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Well, player choice does influence it. A lot of players seem to prefer more "explosive" and flashy fighters, so, yeah, being a solid honest fighter might end up with them being perceived as worse than they are if simply because they don't get results. People will comment about fighters not getting results, but then the question arises as to if they aren't getting results because they can't or because people don't want to use them. Sometimes you may get the benefit of people trying and failing, but for those that aren't used that much (or as much as their "tier" may suggest they should) or lack a high level player, the waters may be a bit more murky in some situations.

But being in the middle may be one of the worst fates as then they can end up seeming kind of...forgotten. Of course, on a thread like this, some of that may come from a lack of "sponsors" as it were. People who like to keep bringing them back into the discussion. I wouldn't call Mewtwo as forgotten as it has been discussed, but then others like Meta Knight or Lucas just don't seem mentioned much.

On another note, I wouldn't rule out the Belmonts getting buffs just because casual players may not like them. People complained about Zelda getting buffed so Belmont buffs may still be on the table.
 

MrGameguycolor

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Is the balance and/or roster size at the point where just not being played or talked about is enough to be declared bottom tier? Why are characters like Meta Knight and Mewtwo suddenly being considered for this? I always thought being an honest mid tier was in some ways a worse fate than actually being poor, but never like this...

I dare someone who only experienced Ridley's disadvantage to do this.
Yeah, considering how much the meta has grown since the last two patches.

No bad blood, but I always found these choices for low tier (:ultbayonetta::ultbowserjr::ultcorrinf::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultpiranha::ultpit:) as Fill in the Blank picks over contenders, via
honest judgment.
But hey, this is the first time I've seen :ultsimon::ultrichter: spoken this lowly, so who am I to judge :D
 
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L9999

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Simon/Richter aren't good, but they're probably on the bottom of mid tier or low tier. Riddles got 13th at Super Smash Con (Including beating Dabuz) using a mixture between him and Ken, and Shuton uses him as a counterpick. Plus, in terms of recovery both players have had ways to mix up their recovery such as Shuton infamously down airing a Pikmin, or Riddles down airing a Razor Leaf.
Riddles also dropped Richter nearly right after, citing him as "very stressful to play in tournament." Super Smash Con was also centuries ago, the meta has advanced since, currently Richter players don't get past pools at the highest tournaments. It was the same thing with Pirahna Plant, a very high peak but went downhill ever since and has yet to recover.

Is the balance and/or roster size at the point where just not being played or talked about is enough to be declared bottom tier? Why are characters like Meta Knight and Mewtwo suddenly being considered for this? I always thought being an honest mid tier was in some ways a worse fate than actually being poor, but never like this...

I dare someone who only experienced Ridley's disadvantage to do this.
Bottom implies that the character who ended there failed to meet the standards to be successful. Their kits are too poor to handle the relevant characters and are not good for competitions at the highest level period. Being mid tier is like getting pat in the back for not being as bad as someone else, not because of their merits. Many characters who get criticized harshly are given this particular defense: "he may be mid tier." Congrats? That means the character gets lost in the middle, or may just be bad. From all those Twitter and YT tier lists you can at least tell which characters are perceived as important by the top players and communities. If you go to a tournament, you likely won't practice for someone like :ultmetaknight:or :ultmewtwo:. It doesn't really matter if they are bottom tier or mid tier, they don't matter because they don't exist. They get an upset? Sure, that will only spark some interest into them, and they will be figured out faster than the player who got the upset drowns in pools or gets 64th. Characters who are genuinely good are more resilient to being dismantled by study. However with 80 characters and hundreds of players with individual biases and talents cannot give us a fully objective picture, you don't see the flock of :ultjoker:, players are either not interested or they just suck compared to Leo. You don't see the flock of :jigglypuffmelee: despite being recognized as "no techskill needed" because players genuinely dislike her.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Reminder that tier designation is arbitrary, there is no rule that says you must have low tiers because someone has to be low tier. If every character feels good enough to be atleast decent you can absolutely have a very large “decent” tier be the lowest tier in your game. Ultimate is no paradigm of balance but I can say aside a few characters there aren’t many characters in the game I can’t say aren’t atleast decent. Cases like Mewtwo and Meta Knight are good examples of decent characters that are hurt more by the fact you have too many characters in this game and being just decent isn’t enough to stand out from the other 30 decent characters. I cannot call those two weak or bad characters just based off their kits alone. This problem is only going to be further increased as this game keeps adding characters, the returns will keep diminishing for the decent characters who don’t stand out enough from the herd of decent characters.

This is also why I advocate for ditching traditional tier lists and just using strength charts/tier grids instead.
 
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Thinkaman

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All of these characters have a frame 2-4 jab except :ultincineroar:.
Just want to point out randomly that Incineroar gets away with not having a fast option due to Lariat being a f5 option with unusual coverage--it beats a large amount of things, including several defensive options.

When I play Incineroar I Lariat in about half the situations I would jab with other characters, and it tends to work out pretty good most of the time.

You know, for all of the talk about who is/isn't Top Tier, we never really seem to talk about who is worst characters are.
...what? I feel like this gets talked about just about every page.

IMO, the worst characters in Ultimate are the ones who just don't work (because of the engine or because of their own limitations).
I'm throwing another penalty flag on this one. "Just doesn't work" is totally a weasel word, a matter-of-fact phrase that is short on facts.

The demonstrated cast-wide floor as shown by the demonstrated ceiling of each character is quite high in this game. Obviously the characters "work", and of :ultlittlemac::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultkrool: or others have relatively straightforward goals that make them win, that respective top players have successfully done multiple times against other top players. It's just equally evident that the math isn't in their favor and it's an uphill battle, a hill whose gradient we just spent a lot of time talking about.

This isn't even unique to Ultimate. Even Brawl Ganon and Melee Bowser/Pichu "worked", it was just really unfavorable math. Maybe Melee Kirby didn't.


I find "well this character can't do anything if you just play lame" to be a nothingburger, a false panacea.

First, it generally predicates certain stage choices (which might not be realistic) and that the opponent is actually in the lead. I have tons of Little Mac matches where I never to worried about getting platform camped because I was never losing!

Story time:

A number of my simultaneous-least-and-most-favorite Smash memories involve weirdly confrontational "doc kids" who think they are hot stuff because they started playing Melee 10 years after I did--and one of my favorite is relevant here. Some college freshman at a local, acting smug while going 0-2 with a Fox who did nothing but waveshine, starts talking trash about Little Mac--a character in a game he doesn't play--for some reason. So I money match him, and when we go to pick stages, he's like "No no, it has to be Smashville." I point out how utterly ridiculous it is to money match someone on a character's worst stage (that they would always ban in bracket), but say Fine, let's go Smashville! because that's secondary to the real point.

So right off the bat he does some unsafe nonsense and I wack him around a bit. So he jumps up on the Smashville platform, and starts camping me. And he smugly says "See? You can't do anything to me!"

"Right. I'm not even trying to. You're losing!"

Look, I'm not saying the Little Mac is good because "Duh, just don't lose! Never be behind, only be ahead, ez gg." I'm just saying that your degenerate strategy is worth less points when it requires you to already be winning. Obviously many Smash matches go back and forth, and difficulty coming back would be a pretty unattractive trait. But some decent percentage of Smash games have a person stay in the lead from start to finish, including a rather large percent between players with disparse skill levels. And we have to recognize that, from the get go, this supposed weakness does not apply to that subset of matches at all.

Then we get into stages. Wario camping Mac out at Kalos is an imaginary scenario, because why would Mac be playing on Kalos? Even in our current stage lists, which are very "anti-Mac", that sort of extreme outcome is not the norm, not realistic.

If we want to talk about realism, Mac is probably in the 4 characters I consider playing in bracket currently. And I'm only going to play him on FD, Lylat, or Battlefield. That's my reality. Does that make Mac a worse character? I guess you are free to define it that way. But people pick those stages all the time, and it's trivial to counterpick one of them if I really want Mac. Trust me, even with the extent of how picky Mac is about stages, I'm not short of opportunities to play the character. Yeah, on their counterpick I can't ban every bad Mac stage, but guess what? The bad Mac stages I left open are probably the favorite stages of whoever else I want to play against their character.

I play the majority of my Mac games on FD, because there are so many characters who prefer FD. It helps that I frequently play game 1 as Incineroar, who lots of people are comfortable picking FD against. And while a lot of low tiers worry about getting character-counterpicked, Mac... kinda doesn't? Mac's worst matchups on FD might be better than his best matchups on Kalos.

Finally, even when the stars align and you put Mac in a situation where he can be meaningfully camped, it's not nearly as much of a slam dunk as one might think. The only gaurantee in this situation is that one of you has practiced for this exact scenario way more than the other, and the few options Mac has to bust a stall open with a hard read are lethal! On multiple occasions, I have won otherwise-close matches because my opponent tried to stall me. When I made top 100 with Mac at EVO 2015, my last win was a skilled Pikachu who kept it dead-even but got nervous at the end of game 3 and retreated to a Battlefield platform for no justifiable reason except that this is supposedly what you do against Mac, right? At which point he is no threat to me and I can jump at him until he reacts and eats an up-b to end the set. Maybe if it was Smashville or such it would have been an okay idea, but on Battlefield he should have kept fighting! "I'm winning, so let's totally change strategies to something my opponent has definitely practiced more" is as questionable as it gets.

I'll repeat myself: At the end of the day, I think evaluating Mac holistically is sort of impossible because he's so stage-sensitive, much more than anyone else. Judging him requires such a specific lens, like "exclusive-main, on this specific stage list with 2 bans and DSR" that it lacks transferrable meaning. Again, taking me as an example: Exactly how bad Mac is on stages other than those 3 is totally irrelevant to me. Mac-on-Kalos might as well be a different character, who I don't play in singles.

Which reminds me, very little of any of this applies to teams, which is the superior game anyway. Mac is also very particular about his preferred teammates, incidentally--but that you always control.



As for Isabelle. Isabelle is sort of the opposite of Mac in that she's far more stage agnostic than you'd think, but is a lot more polarized by character matchup. Isabelle is a campy and harassing character who can always abuse extra space, and doesn't care a whole lot about people having space against her. But she can casually pressure people off-stage pretty easily and enjoys high rewards for doing so, so small stages where off-stage is only one slingshot or f-tilt away are also usually fine.

But Isabelle is a character with exactly 1 busted move, and slingshot is way way way better against tall characters. Slow characters are not only worse at breaking through slingshot, but give her far more windows to set up trap. Characters who depend on projectiles in the neutral suffer from Pocket, some much more than others. But for every Inkling or Pikachu or Sonic or Fox in the top characters, you can find those like Snake, ROB, or Ness that she is fine with fighting. And Isabelle agaisnt PP is brutal, so once the Plant meta takes over, watch out.


To be clear, I think both Little Mac and Isabelle are "below average" and should be prime candidates for some of those sweet sweet buffs. My long-winded point here is that pinning them down beyond that requires making a lot of calrifications and definitions about the context of the judgement that sort of renders the exercise moot.
 

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
796
Location
Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
Just want to point out randomly that Incineroar gets away with not having a fast option due to Lariat being a f5 option with unusual coverage--it beats a large amount of things, including several defensive options.

When I play Incineroar I Lariat in about half the situations I would jab with other characters, and it tends to work out pretty good most of the time.



...what? I feel like this gets talked about just about every page.



I'm throwing another penalty flag on this one. "Just doesn't work" is totally a weasel word, a matter-of-fact phrase that is short on facts.

The demonstrated cast-wide floor as shown by the demonstrated ceiling of each character is quite high in this game. Obviously the characters "work", and of :ultlittlemac::ultincineroar::ultisabelle::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultkrool: or others have relatively straightforward goals that make them win, that respective top players have successfully done multiple times against other top players. It's just equally evident that the math isn't in their favor and it's an uphill battle, a hill whose gradient we just spent a lot of time talking about.

This isn't even unique to Ultimate. Even Brawl Ganon and Melee Bowser/Pichu "worked", it was just really unfavorable math. Maybe Melee Kirby didn't.


I find "well this character can't do anything if you just play lame" to be a nothingburger, a false panacea.

First, it generally predicates certain stage choices (which might not be realistic) and that the opponent is actually in the lead. I have tons of Little Mac matches where I never to worried about getting platform camped because I was never losing!

Story time:

A number of my simultaneous-least-and-most-favorite Smash memories involve weirdly confrontational "doc kids" who think they are hot stuff because they started playing Melee 10 years after I did--and one of my favorite is relevant here. Some college freshman at a local, acting smug while going 0-2 with a Fox who did nothing but waveshine, starts talking trash about Little Mac--a character in a game he doesn't play--for some reason. So I money match him, and when we go to pick stages, he's like "No no, it has to be Smashville." I point out how utterly ridiculous it is to money match someone on a character's worst stage (that they would always ban in bracket), but say Fine, let's go Smashville! because that's secondary to the real point.

So right off the bat he does some unsafe nonsense and I wack him around a bit. So he jumps up on the Smashville platform, and starts camping me. And he smugly says "See? You can't do anything to me!"

"Right. I'm not even trying to. You're losing!"

Look, I'm not saying the Little Mac is good because "Duh, just don't lose! Never be behind, only be ahead, ez gg." I'm just saying that your degenerate strategy is worth less points when it requires you to already be winning. Obviously many Smash matches go back and forth, and difficulty coming back would be a pretty unattractive trait. But some decent percentage of Smash games have a person stay in the lead from start to finish, including a rather large percent between players with disparse skill levels. And we have to recognize that, from the get go, this supposed weakness does not apply to that subset of matches at all.

Then we get into stages. Wario camping Mac out at Kalos is an imaginary scenario, because why would Mac be playing on Kalos? Even in our current stage lists, which are very "anti-Mac", that sort of extreme outcome is not the norm, not realistic.

If we want to talk about realism, Mac is probably in the 4 characters I consider playing in bracket currently. And I'm only going to play him on FD, Lylat, or Battlefield. That's my reality. Does that make Mac a worse character? I guess you are free to define it that way. But people pick those stages all the time, and it's trivial to counterpick one of them if I really want Mac. Trust me, even with the extent of how picky Mac is about stages, I'm not short of opportunities to play the character. Yeah, on their counterpick I can't ban every bad Mac stage, but guess what? The bad Mac stages I left open are probably the favorite stages of whoever else I want to play against their character.

I play the majority of my Mac games on FD, because there are so many characters who prefer FD. It helps that I frequently play game 1 as Incineroar, who lots of people are comfortable picking FD against. And while a lot of low tiers worry about getting character-counterpicked, Mac... kinda doesn't? Mac's worst matchups on FD might be better than his best matchups on Kalos.

Finally, even when the stars align and you put Mac in a situation where he can be meaningfully camped, it's not nearly as much of a slam dunk as one might think. The only gaurantee in this situation is that one of you has practiced for this exact scenario way more than the other, and the few options Mac has to bust a stall open with a hard read are lethal! On multiple occasions, I have won otherwise-close matches because my opponent tried to stall me. When I made top 100 with Mac at EVO 2015, my last win was a skilled Pikachu who kept it dead-even but got nervous at the end of game 3 and retreated to a Battlefield platform for no justifiable reason except that this is supposedly what you do against Mac, right? At which point he is no threat to me and I can jump at him until he reacts and eats an up-b to end the set. Maybe if it was Smashville or such it would have been an okay idea, but on Battlefield he should have kept fighting! "I'm winning, so let's totally change strategies to something my opponent has definitely practiced more" is as questionable as it gets.

I'll repeat myself: At the end of the day, I think evaluating Mac holistically is sort of impossible because he's so stage-sensitive, much more than anyone else. Judging him requires such a specific lens, like "exclusive-main, on this specific stage list with 2 bans and DSR" that it lacks transferrable meaning. Again, taking me as an example: Exactly how bad Mac is on stages other than those 3 is totally irrelevant to me. Mac-on-Kalos might as well be a different character, who I don't play in singles.

Which reminds me, very little of any of this applies to teams, which is the superior game anyway. Mac is also very particular about his preferred teammates, incidentally--but that you always control.



As for Isabelle. Isabelle is sort of the opposite of Mac in that she's far more stage agnostic than you'd think, but is a lot more polarized by character matchup. Isabelle is a campy and harassing character who can always abuse extra space, and doesn't care a whole lot about people having space against her. But she can casually pressure people off-stage pretty easily and enjoys high rewards for doing so, so small stages where off-stage is only one slingshot or f-tilt away are also usually fine.

But Isabelle is a character with exactly 1 busted move, and slingshot is way way way better against tall characters. Slow characters are not only worse at breaking through slingshot, but give her far more windows to set up trap. Characters who depend on projectiles in the neutral suffer from Pocket, some much more than others. But for every Inkling or Pikachu or Sonic or Fox in the top characters, you can find those like Snake, ROB, or Ness that she is fine with fighting. And Isabelle agaisnt PP is brutal, so once the Plant meta takes over, watch out.


To be clear, I think both Little Mac and Isabelle are "below average" and should be prime candidates for some of those sweet sweet buffs. My long-winded point here is that pinning them down beyond that requires making a lot of calrifications and definitions about the context of the judgement that sort of renders the exercise moot.
Exactly, it's strange how people go to a strategy that they think they'll win with only when they're LOSING! You can argue back and forth, forwards and back about what makes a character good or bad but that doesn't matter because it isn't the only thing to a matchup. After all a lot of players aren't MKLeo, we can fling a guess where they fall in skill level sometimes but 9 times out of 10 whether it be online, locals or otherwise you'll be playing a player who you have no clue where their skill level falls under. Tiers are typically arbitrary and none of them are 100% accurate.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,201
To list my low and bottom tiers here are some things to note:

1) My personal low tier and bottom tier is notably bigger than most other player's low and bottom tiers. I am more strict on which character is low tier or not.

2) The bottom and low tiers are definitely stronger than the ones of past Smash games. When people think of "bottom" or "low" tier, people think of the power level of the character, but for me it is mostly character positions relative to the rest of the cast. The characters shown are overall lackluster, with reps and results to back it as well, but it is no where near the levels of the low tiers of Melee or Brawl.

3) I overall think that every character, even at the lowest tier, has at least some stuff going for them.

---------------------------------------------------

In terms of what are the worst characters, here is my bottom tier (or lower-low tier in you prefer), with explanations (strongest on the left, weakest on the right):

:ultdoc::ultkrool::ultgunner::ultbayonetta::ultlittlemac::ultcorrinf::ultpiranha::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultganondorf:

:ultganondorf: is easily the worst character for me. Very slow all-around, with lackluster frame data to back it, making his approach overall poor. His damage output and KO power, especially the latter, is pretty good, but he is too read reliant to get anything started. His hitboxes, while good on-paper, is lackluster relative to his size and mobility, with some blindspots on some of his moves (like up smash) to boot. Finally, his disadvantage is probably the worst in the game, being combo food thanks to his weight and size, and his recovery being one of the worst in the game.

His representation is one of the lowest in the game, even lower than SSB4 Ganondorf, while his results doesn't are much better. When your best result is 65th at Frostbite 2020, then you know that this character is in trouble. If only this character had his SSB4 up air, aerial Flame Choke, and up smash. That would've been really good for him.

:ultjigglypuff: is easily the biggest example of people overreacting to game update buffs. They are helpful to an extent, but the new stuff it got was is inconsistent on what it is trying to accomplish, while none of its numerous weaknesses getting addressed. The worst ground game in the game, low range, very light, and too reliant on extremely committal KO moves. Had bottom 10, even bottom 5, results since the beginning of the game and that hasn't changed much.

:ultisabelle: comes off as a gimmick to me. She possesses some similar moves as Villager, but they are not anywhere near as cohesive to her moveset. Her Fishing Rod is... ok, but losing Lloid Rocket in the process makes her ability to wall-off the opponent and force approaches considerably weaker. Her Lloid Trap seems alright, but with matchup experience, can be easily circumvented. It takes so long for her to pluck it down, it doesn't take much effort to remove it from the field (especially with disjoints), and it disappears by itself in only 20 seconds. The fact that she is lighter than Villy doesn't help.

Her reps are also very low. The players who play her either do not get very far outside of locals (or smaller regional events), or dual-main her with a better character and use that character more often. Panda Bair and Lv. 1 initially used her equally with their co-main, but has slowly drifted away from her.

The three above are what I consider to be the worst character contenders. Everyone below, while lackluster, is not.

:ultpiranha: was a very hit-and-run character in terms of the metagame (sort of reminiscent of :4gaw:). Had that one (or two) months of getting some respectable placements, but then completely dropped off the map. PPlant is a whole is a character with some seemingly nice tools, but is ultimately held back by it's awful approach. Average ground mobility, but poor air mobility with low air speed and terrible air acceleration. It doesn't help that it's frame data, especially in the air is overall lackluster. Less said about this character's terrible hitboxes, the better.

:ultcorrinf: is an interesting case. There is the fact that Cosmos got the reverse 3-0 upset against Dabuz. However, that is pretty much it about the character in terms of what she has done in the metagame. The upset is most likely a one-and-done thing, especially with Cosmos developing his Pikachu. Her representation and results remain to be one of the worst in the game (still confused on how that one set got Corrin 13.5 points on OrionStats).

Her moveset on the surface seems overall solid, but it does not mesh up well with her mobility. Her overall mobility is lackluster, but unlike other even slower characters, her moveset lacks the cohesion of Byleth's (where his moveset is built with low mobility in mind) or the reward of Incineroar's. The overall outline of Corrin's issues is that her overall approach is very predictable, while her reward for finally opening up does not compensate for her difficulties approaching, with inconsistent KO power to boot.

:ultlittlemac: is a very contentious character. The character is obviously low tier, but throughout Ultimate's history, I have strongly debated on where in low tier Mac could be. I ultimately decided here. The character's strengths and weaknesses needs no introduction. I was originally going to place Mac a bit higher in the list thanks to the pure utility of his ground game, but with his results starting to somewhat stagnate lately, I think this is where he belongs for now.

:ultbayonetta: is probably one of the most tragic characters in Smash history. She could have entered Ultimate being a somewhat decent character, and have her dedicated mains be properly compensated for mastering this technical character, but thanks to the whole MkLeo vs Plup thing at the invitational, the character we got when the game came out has been a wreck.

She is a tall, lightweight character that has trouble KO'ing (and she really struggles to land KOs). That is already a recipe for disaster. Then, you factor in moves that sometimes doesn't work (opponents effortlessly fall out of her jab at the ledge), poor overall frame data for a character of her archetype and attributes, and a very predictable approach... yeah, that hurts.

I would've personally ranked her even lower, but the results her dedicated mains bring out is a bit too high to be a worst character contender. But still, she possesses the best talent of any playerbase of an obscure character, but their reward for mastering this hard-to-play character is that you maybe get top 49 at a major. That is honestly quite tragic.

:ultgunner: is a really weird character. The name of this character's game is zoning you out hard, in which the character is pretty good on walling out the opponent. Similar to PPlant, ledgetrapping is where the character truly shines, as it can be hard, especially for characters that naturally struggle to get off the ledge, to get back on-stage.

However, there are some notable gaps in their gameplan. One is that their range-to-speed ratio on their normals is quite bad. The moves that are fast have short reach (and not even the fastest thing in the world) and KO power, while their longer ranged and more powerful moves are very slow. The character's overall frame data isn't very good, and this range-to-speed ratio can often make it hard for the character to land KOs. It doesn't help that this character's mobility got completely gutted in this game in comparison to SSB4, featuring a slower grounded mobility overall, and a significantly slower air mobility (forward air's range getting nerfed doesn't help). It is a character that relies very heavily on spacing, even more-so than in SSB4, but then you exist in an environment of Ultimate as one of the slowest characters in the game, and that is where the character begins to fall apart.

Overall, the Gunner feels like the weakest of the Miis in the current metagame. The character feels like it has some potential to be potent, but it is way too slow to get anything started, and unlike Robin, is not that strong in CQC to help compensate. Gunner is also the Mii that keeps getting the best costumes too...

:ultkrool: is still rather lackluster. I ranked him a bit higher than a few other people, but still bottom 10. We all know the drill for K. Rool, slow moveset, slow projectiles, exploitable recovery, the list goes one. I ranked him a bit higher than others thanks to Belly Armor shenanigans, as well as some decent aerials and a good grab game, but the character still struggles. He had a brief period towards the end of season 2 of some (albeit limited) success, but he has currently faded into obscurity.

:ultdoc: rounds out bottom 10 for me. He used to be a worst character contender, but the nice advantage state buffs from 7.0 has helped out the character from being that low. Despite this, the buffs from 7.0 did very little, at best, to address his weaknesses. He is still one of the absolute slowest characters in the game, in a moveset built for him to be up-close as possible, while having very little range on pretty much all of his moves (even less range than Mario on a few occurrences, such as forward smash). This, combined with a few of his aerials having unusually high landing lag for a character of his range and speed (even laggier than Mario in a few instances), makes his overall approach pretty bad. His recovery being as bad as it is doesn't help either.

So while Doc is a character where he will put in a lot of work when he finally gets in (Corrin cries in the corner), getting to that position in the first place is still very tough.

---------------------------------------------------

Here is my personal low tier, but with more brief explanations due to there being more of them (strongest on the left, weakest on the right):

:ultmewtwo::ultdk::ultdarkpit::ulthero::ultbowserjr::ulticeclimbers::ultrichter::ultkingdedede::ultbrawler::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultswordfighter:

:ultswordfighter: is a character that has definitely fallen from grace since its initial perception. Powercreep from other low tiers getting buffed, while its metagame stagnating lately hasn't helped out either. The disjoints the character brings to the table is rather lackluster, with mediocre frame data and poor range for a sword. His mobility, while definitely not the worst thing ever, is not that great, only adding to its range issues.

To give some praise, the character's overall ability to wall out the opponent is pretty good, somewhat similar to Gunner. However, KO'ing with the character can be a bit of a hassle sometimes, as a lot of its KO options either very specific conditions to happen and the finishers itself is slow. There is of course the infamous Gale's Strike to Hero's Spin combo, but it is predictable (Gale Strike isn't that fast of a projectile), percent window is specific, and the opponent sometimes simply falls out of Hero's Spin for no reason.

The Mii is currently the lowest ranked Mii on OrionStats (and the third lowest ranked character in the stats as a whole), which kind of paints the picture on how much the character has stagnated, but it still has its stuff.

:ultkirby: is a character that has indeed benefited from 6.0 considerably, unlike its pink puff-ball counterpart. The character has some solid traits all-around, held back some notable range issues, poor air mobility, and overall struggling to deal with projectiles. Already noticeably better than SSB4 Kirby, the character still has some ways to go to reach the solid mid-tier heights of his Brawl incarnation. Wanted to rank him slightly higher, but with his results slightly stagnating lately, I decided against it.

:ultincineroar: needs no introduction in terms of character strengths and weaknesses. For the most part, it is basically Ganondorf, but better. Has the usual super-heavyweight traits of being powerful, but it has a solid combo game and frame data to boot. The main issue with the character, as we all know, is its abysmal mobility. The character's recovery not being very good doesn't help either.

I ranked Incineroar higher than most other people in this thread, not just because I value it's character strengths a bit more than other players, but the character has a surprisingly high amount of results according to OrionStats lately. Magister seems to be back on the grind. The character is still overall very flawed, but underestimate it on your own peril.

:ultbrawler: is probably the best of the Miis in the current metagame. Solid overall combo game, great mobility, and some powerful (albeit gimmicky) utility on its special moves. The advantage state of this character, with the right setup, can reach Dr. Mario levels of powerful, while being much faster than that aforementioned character, the main reason why I think Brawler is better than Doc.

Despite these nice traits, the character still suffers from having one of the worst overall ranges in the game, having little safety on opponent's shields, rather high landing lag on a character of his archetype, and some inconsistent time KO'ing. As a result, it is another character that has to commit a lot to leave a dent on the opponent.

Brawler has recently got a notable increase in rankings on OrionStats, although its presence in competitive play is still rather minimal, like the other two Miis.

:ultkingdedede: alongside the Belmonts and Mii Swordfighter, Dedede has been a solid mid tier character at one point. However, the combination of the three character's metagames stagnating and lower tiered characters getting buffed, puts them in the low tiers.

Dedede still has quite a bit of his advantages: Gordo set-ups with an infinite-use reflector as backup, a long disjointed Hammer with coverage, a long-distanced recovery, and powerful ledgetrapping capabilities. However, with his sluggish mobility, frame data, and a projectile that can't really be used for camping, Dedede has his issues. This is reflected in his results, as Dedede while definitely nowhere near bottom tier level of results, has definitely seen better days. He has his good stuff, but the flaws are currently done him more harm lately.

:ultrichter: has definitely fallen from grace, especially in comparison to how warmly received he was near the game's release. He possesses long range, ways to mix-up his movement, an array of projectiles, and an entire list of combo/KO setups with these said projectiles. However, his lackluster frame data, skinny hitboxes, meh mobility, and poor recovery has definitely done this character a dirty hand lately. He has achieved some pretty solid results in the past, and while his current results isn't all too bad, he is definitely a shell of his former self when it comes to his standing in the metagame.

:ulticeclimbers: is probably the weirdest case in my list. On one hand, the character has access to devastating 0-death setups and has some walling abilities with de-syncs. So close to being devastating character, but is held back by numerous inconsistencies and inherent issues that high technical skill cannot address. The range on their moves often range from being below-average to outright laughably small. Separating and KO'ing the partner Climber is made rather easy in this game thanks to the increased damage multiplier on Nana, more moves that can separate them, and Nana's AI being absolutely stupid, the latter of which can make the character unwieldy to use. Then there is also their recovery failing for no apparent reason sometimes.

The only player as of right now that is doing remotely well with the character is Big D, but I think a lot of it is Big D being an amazing player, as well as some aspect of matchup inexperience (side B spam anyone?). Even then Big D's results with the character at bigger events can be inconsistent.

:ultbowserjr: has been the character who has been splashing all over the competitive scene time and time again. The character some solid overall traits that the character has to respect: Clown Car Dash, up air juggles, ledgetrapping, jab at the ledge, the list goes on. The character is, however, still burdened with his usual problems: predictable approach, sluggish/short reached finishers, and gimpable recovery. We do have his mains, especially from Young Eevey put in the work with character. While the character still have his problems, he can be frightful threat in the right hands.

:ulthero: is another example of people overreacting to a character's initial impressions. The character has quite a bit of powerful spells in his disposal, as well as some good KO power at his fingertips. However, this comes at the cost of being incredibly slow. While his grounded mobility is ok, his aerial mobility is awful, while the frame data on his normals is among the worst in the game. Two big examples is his forward and back air taking a hundred years to come out. Shulk's frame data on his normals is not that good either, but he at least has range and faster mobility overall (especially with Speed Art active).

As for the spells, they are too random and situation specific from being a truly powerful threat. The over-inflation of Hero players at the beginning of his release, made people realize how to deal with his spells most effectively. Magic Burst, considered one of his best spells at the beginning of his release, is now considered to be one of his most situational and exploitable ones. To his credit, Bounce is a very effective spell to deal with zoners, which creates his niche counterpicking potential. However, what this sums up to is a character with a high technical learning curve, but your reward is a mere counterpick character that still feels like an uphill battle at times.

In terms of results, you have a few Hero players pop-up from time to time in low level play, but Salem is the only one doing stuff with the character (and he uses a bunch of other characters as well). Definitely the weakest of the Fighter's Pass 1 characters for me.

:ultdarkpit: is another contentious character due to his oddity in the metagame. The very existence of the Pits often puts in question what characters need truly stand out. As for the character, the Pits possess good frame data, decent grounded mobility, a decent combo game, and a long-distanced varied recovery. The main thing that stands out for the character is that the character's ability to edgeguard is great overall.

Then there is the fact that the character is hurt quite a bit from inconsistent multi-hits, short hitboxes (especially on nair and fair), and some difficulty KO'ing. His damage output, while respectable if you know to combo with the character properly, is not very outstanding either. The final blow to the character is that there isn't anything really interesting about the character that will invite some players (especially when the metagame contains of lot of users of unga-bunga rushdown characters like Roy).

Pits reps and results, ever since the beginning, has been sparse. However, the lack of Earth is what really hurts the character, as he provided easily the best results for the character in both Brawl and SSB4, results that made him a top 25 player in SSB4 at one point. Imagine a universe where ESAM doesn't exist, and imagine what people would think of Pikachu then...

:ultdk:, alongside Mewtwo, one of the "crazy advantage, but bad disadvantage" characters that are so close to being a top threat. The damage, the combos, the reach, the armor... DK has a lot of stuff going for him in terms of advantage state, possessing one of the best back airs that can KO, space, and combo into itself at low percents. DK is also a character with a lot of KO options at his disposal: throw setups, down B setups, grounded up B, the list goes on.

But then you put the character above you, then that is where the character begins to falter. With the changes to airdodges, he becomes even easier to combo and juggle than he already is, while his recovery remains very exploitable as always. These are weaknesses not alien to DK throughout the Smash series, but at least in comparison to SSB4, these weaknesses are intensified to hurt DK in the long run.

Now I am personally surprised on how DK is ranked so high in OrionStats, but his standing in major events has been low since the beginning. He definitely has some sauce, his easily susceptibility to sauce himself weighs him down in the meantime.

:ultmewtwo: has been a discussion point lately. He possesses, low-key, top 10 advantage state in the entire game, with long reaching normals, high mobility, one of the best projectiles in the game, and the power to put you in disadvantage for a long time. His combo and KO capabilities is also very powerful as well. But then you put Mewtwo in disadvantage, and then he struggles. Easily the biggest loser of the airdodge changes, his get-out-of-disadvantage free card from SSB4 is gone, and now he is feeling the full effects of what being tall and light does for a character (even if he heavier in this game than in SSB4).

The combination of feeling bad in disadvantage, as well as being a highly technical character (and old mains of former Mewtwo players getting buffed in Ultimate), all contributes to his low representation. Where he is in the metagame is very volatile depending on who you ask, and while he does have a lot of stuff going for him, he is too inconsistent to quite reach the mid tier point for me, but he does stand at the very top of my low tier.

:ultmetaknight: and :ultlucario: were both close to being at the top of my low tier, but I decided not too in the end. Their overall character traits are overall too solid to be put in low tier.

Meta Knight's results are more niche, but continues to this day. Lucario's results come from Tsu putting in the work with the character, and has achieved great wins and some results with him, but he lately has been focusing on Terry.

While writing this long post, my opinion and position has changed for each character from time to time.
My initial draft had:
:ultjigglypuff: > :ultisabelle:
:ultincineroar::ultkirby: > :ultbrawler:
:ulticeclimbers::ultrichter::ultkingdedede: > :ultbowserjr:

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I want to know you guy's thoughts on this.
I usually don't post something this opinionated in SmashBoards, usually speaking in terms of observations and data (although both are used in my arguments), but since the topic is brought up and the metagame is in an interesting spot, I want to share my thoughts.
 

MrGameguycolor

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:ultkrool: I ranked him a bit higher than others thanks to Belly Armor shenanigans
What do you mean by this?
The closest I can think of to shenanigans is how can get one-shotted by big moves that do see proper competitive use.
Case and point, that clearly doesn't play out in his favor:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm disappointed that it hasn't been addressed so far, yeah it doesn't label Belly Armor as a whole into a weakness, but on a character with so many other problems like Gut Check's Head Blindspot and Krown's... everything, it's a major shame that he can't take proper advantage of it like Palu's invincible shield on DA & Bair.

:ultdoc: combined with a few of his aerials having unusually high landing lag for a character of his range and speed
Seriously...
His landing lag is barely higher than Mario's, the latter of which has some of the overall best landing lag in the game.

Mario/Doc

-Nair: 6/7
-Fair: 17/17
-Bair: 6/10
-Uair: 6/8
-Dair: 15/13

Overall: 50/55 frames.
That's a five frame difference that ties with ZSS and is one frame slower then Joker.
Doc might be underwhelming and that's not because of his landing lag...

I agree with everything else though...
 

Tesh

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I think K Rool's Belly Armor is actually really really good. The concept is interesting and I see him as a heavy interpretation of Ultimate Pichu.

Pichu has (in some cases *had*) a slew of amazing moves. Fast, active, strong, low lag moves with generous hitboxes and intangibility in some cases. He is light, but he gets all the silly bonuses that come with being a fast brawler, f3 Nair, f2 airdodge, f2 jab and obnoxiously the fastest grab animation in the game (31 f ?). And of course a copy of one of the spammy, approach covering thunderjolt, but with beefier damage. So what is the limiting factor to all these powerful moves? Well, its your health. Its like a meter. Pichu gets to have top tier moves, but every time he uses one without making something happen, its a detriment, compared to Pikachu who can throw 10 thunderjolts across the stage and not care if they hit. Its great because it allows full freedom of using the moves, unlike a time based meter (Joker, Cloud), budget/economic meter (Hero, Robin,Banjo,Inkling)

Now the problem with K Rool is they didn't release a top tier that got nerfed to high tier like Pichu. The released a bottom tier (though noob stomping zoning tools) that was later buffed to low tier (if that). They gave him an interesting gimmick that could serve to limit the use of amazing and powerful moves, but they didn't make those moves amazing or powerful. K Rool's belly armor moves should leave his opponent wondering "why is this move so good!?" up until the moment they buckle down and crack the armor. This would leave K Rool with the dilemma that *should* be defining the character. "Do I continue using my best moves and risk a shield break next time they get challenged?" But, much like Melee Pichu, you probably won't get to that part, because the moves suck so why would you ever need to consider the risk of using one twice in a row?

It seemed in 6.0, they realized that the moves need to be worth using if the armor is going to be a resource. Nair went from being a move thats laughably easy to OoS every time its used on stage, to a move that can actually have some mix-up potential on block. Its no longer an easy punish if you just let him do it, so you might have to consider trying to challenge or preempt it. He just needs that type of usefulness added to the rest of his belly moves. A straight reduction in end lag on all of those moves would improve him a lot.

I also think Gut Check is really good. Sure there is a blindspot, but he still gets full body invincibility on frame 4. Its not like Mii Brawler's where you just get hit.
Counters 6.1.0.jpg


And since his airdodge is f4 as well, Gut check is actually a somewhat competitive "get me out of this string" option alongside aerials with f6 armor. His counter factors into situations where most others aren't fast enough to even try.
 

Arthur97

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Really though, why should anyone expect the armor to be able to take big moves? Even then, it's a fairly small subset of moves that not everyone has and are not always going to land.
 

meleebrawler

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I think K Rool's Belly Armor is actually really really good. The concept is interesting and I see him as a heavy interpretation of Ultimate Pichu.

Pichu has (in some cases *had*) a slew of amazing moves. Fast, active, strong, low lag moves with generous hitboxes and intangibility in some cases. He is light, but he gets all the silly bonuses that come with being a fast brawler, f3 Nair, f2 airdodge, f2 jab and obnoxiously the fastest grab animation in the game (31 f ?). And of course a copy of one of the spammy, approach covering thunderjolt, but with beefier damage. So what is the limiting factor to all these powerful moves? Well, its your health. Its like a meter. Pichu gets to have top tier moves, but every time he uses one without making something happen, its a detriment, compared to Pikachu who can throw 10 thunderjolts across the stage and not care if they hit. Its great because it allows full freedom of using the moves, unlike a time based meter (Joker, Cloud), budget/economic meter (Hero, Robin,Banjo,Inkling)

Now the problem with K Rool is they didn't release a top tier that got nerfed to high tier like Pichu. The released a bottom tier (though noob stomping zoning tools) that was later buffed to low tier (if that). They gave him an interesting gimmick that could serve to limit the use of amazing and powerful moves, but they didn't make those moves amazing or powerful. K Rool's belly armor moves should leave his opponent wondering "why is this move so good!?" up until the moment they buckle down and crack the armor. This would leave K Rool with the dilemma that *should* be defining the character. "Do I continue using my best moves and risk a shield break next time they get challenged?" But, much like Melee Pichu, you probably won't get to that part, because the moves suck so why would you ever need to consider the risk of using one twice in a row?

It seemed in 6.0, they realized that the moves need to be worth using if the armor is going to be a resource. Nair went from being a move thats laughably easy to OoS every time its used on stage, to a move that can actually have some mix-up potential on block. Its no longer an easy punish if you just let him do it, so you might have to consider trying to challenge or preempt it. He just needs that type of usefulness added to the rest of his belly moves. A straight reduction in end lag on all of those moves would improve him a lot.

I also think Gut Check is really good. Sure there is a blindspot, but he still gets full body invincibility on frame 4. Its not like Mii Brawler's where you just get hit.
View attachment 265052

And since his airdodge is f4 as well, Gut check is actually a somewhat competitive "get me out of this string" option alongside aerials with f6 armor. His counter factors into situations where most others aren't fast enough to even try.
This isn't quite a 1-to-1 comparison. Pichu pays a price regardless of whether or not his moves land. K. Rool only pays if he tanks moves with them. The actual application of the armor on moves also varies. Only nair, ftilt, dash attack and maybe dsmash are used to actively challenge moves. The rest use it as a form of safety net. Of the first four, dash attack and dsmash also happen to be powerful kill moves. Decreasing their endlag could be dangerous, especially dsmash which could end up being an obnoxious shield-breaking move. Uair's buffs have nothing to do with how good it is at taking hits. Decreasing endlag is also a blanket statement: wouldn't every character be better with less endlag?

Gut Check also has the unique property of simultaneously reflecting projectiles while triggering it's counter hitbox, deterring angled projectile approaches.
 
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