Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

So this is a tier list based on who has the best matchup chart, and it's been looking at what each pro player who mains the character thinks.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So this is a tier list based on who has the best matchup chart, and it's been looking at what each pro player who mains the character thinks.
View attachment 265459

Interesting to see. However, making something like this can be off-putting, because top player's opinion in terms of matchup charts vary very wildly (plus everyone's opinion on a lot of the characters in the game being very volatile as well).

Then you have the players who play the character themselves. We have the ones who think very highly on their own character (ESAM and VoiD), or those who think lowly on their own character (Dabuz and Samsora, at least relative to everyone else).

Was also not sure at first why Trainer's three Pokemon have their own tier spots, but then I do remember PkMn Trainer mains doing that a long time ago. Probably why solo Charizard's placement is so low, because Trainer mains historically had a low opinion on Charizard, especially during the first few months of the game.

 

[boysilver400]

i remember at banjo launch arguing that making wonderwing a limited resource was a poor decision that would hurt the character long term and its definitely a factor.
i think if his grenades went forward that alone would do a lot in improving the character. overall he lacks the mechanics and unnique moveset dlc characters tend to have.

1. Wondering absolutely needs the limit??? It’s an absurd move and would shoot him up more tiers than he deserves if it were unlimited

2. B reversing grenades exist

There are some characters that are just impossible to buff without making them problematic and Banjo is one of them.

 

[blackghost]

1. Wondering absolutely needs the limit??? It’s an absurd move and would shoot him up more tiers than he deserves if it were unlimited

2. B reversing grenades exist

There are some characters that are just impossible to buff without making them problematic and Banjo is one of them.

having to b reverse grenades to make them good or go forward is not a good thing. it places execution barriers on a character people already have little interest in learning. not to mention it was fundamentally a strange design decision to make his entire gameplan start from a move that goes backwards.
wonderwing is not crazy enough to warrant its limited use. other moves of limited use include witchtime, waft, hero menu, arsene, and cloud limit. these other moves either do more for their individual characters including improve passive movement and knockback values or work as a continous threat. waft sa kill move that can be confirmed into.
witch time works as a continuous threat but it recharges overtime. the other aspect of these limited moves is that they cannot be dealt with just with one option. They often require correct counterplay and good decision making to overcome. wonderwing simply loses to shield and airdodge. the move is not safe enough to be nearly as scary as these other limited moves and considering a move like peach bomber is safer on shield and; while it comes with less killpower, the gap for all reasonable purposes isn't even that high.

second i dont not think there is more than a handful characters that are "buff proof" because they'd be "problematic". IMO those characters are mostly limited to improving the shotos movement in the air and maybe belmonts movement as well. Banjo is definitely not one of those characters. thats a strong claim to make without anything to back it up.

 

[The_Bookworm]

1. Wondering absolutely needs the limit??? It’s an absurd move and would shoot him up more tiers than he deserves if it were unlimited

2. B reversing grenades exist

There are some characters that are just impossible to buff without making them problematic and Banjo is one of them.

Unlimited Wonderwing would be obnoxious to deal with, but I don't think it would make the character a member of the "impossible to buff unless made problematic" club (and even then, the developers are obviously never going to do this).

Even then, Banjo is probably one of the last characters to be in that club.
It is almost like saying that buffing the Pits will make the character problematic to the metagame.

I would argue that as long as they buff the character correctly, there isn't truly a character that will be problematic.
However, none of that hasn't happened yet, so there hasn't been any evidence for either side of the argument yet.

 

[ARISTOS]

Real talk, why is CEO Dreamland still being held? Seems pretty irresponsible.

Speaking of cancelled tournaments, Full Bloom 6 got cancelled:

Full Bloom 6 Cancellation Statement https://t.co/19kiqZjjkE

— Smash At IUB | Host of Full Bloom and Kill Roy (@SmashAtIUB) March 11, 2020

Obviously an aside but they definitely won't be the last, most majors through mid-summer will likely shut down. We'll have to see how good the US system is in times of crisis but my overwhelming feeling is that it's not good lol.

Really unfortunate for the Smash World Tour/TOs, but a necessary precaution nonetheless.

Stay safe everyone, practice clean habits

 

[NotLiquid]

having to b reverse grenades to make them good or go forward is not a good thing. it places execution barriers on a character people already have little interest in learning. not to mention it was fundamentally a strange design decision to make his entire gameplan start from a move that goes backwards.
wonderwing is not crazy enough to warrant its limited use. other moves of limited use include witchtime, waft, hero menu, arsene, and cloud limit. these other moves either do more for their individual characters including improve passive movement and knockback values or work as a continous threat. waft sa kill move that can be confirmed into.
witch time works as a continuous threat but it recharges overtime. the other aspect of these limited moves is that they cannot be dealt with just with one option. They often require correct counterplay and good decision making to overcome. wonderwing simply loses to shield and airdodge. the move is not safe enough to be nearly as scary as these other limited moves and considering a move like peach bomber is safer on shield and; while it comes with less killpower, the gap for all reasonable purposes isn't even that high.

second i dont not think there is more than a handful characters that are "buff proof" because they'd be "problematic". IMO those characters are mostly limited to improving the shotos movement in the air and maybe belmonts movement as well. Banjo is definitely not one of those characters. thats a strong claim to make without anything to back it up.

Out of the handful of moves Banjo has that I'd claim don't work to their max potential, Grenade Eggs would not be on that list. Aerial drift makes snatching the egg a non-issue if your purpose of using it is as a projectile, and the trajectory is specifically tailored the way it is so Banjo can double it as a landing/trapping option, specifically bolstering by the character's vertical prowess.

Why does it shoot backward? Technically because shooting eggs backwards was a thing in the games but why the grenade eggs specifically and why in this game? Because it's there to reinforce that it's mainly a defensive move, and retreating "away" is generally considered defense. Shooting forward is redundant, that's what his eggs are for. And despite being analogous to Snake's grenades which can be picked in neutral, they're intrinsically different in function. For one thing, Snake's grenades don't have an awkward bounce with a massive hitbox that explodes on contact.

"B-reversing places execution barriers" is also one of the most bewildering things I've read in a topic about competitive play as well. B-reversing is entry level tech. How does that concept suddenly make players not want to play Banjo? If you decide to pick up a character that has elements of a zoner, that should be engraved in your muscle memory. B-reversing is a universal mechanic, learning that makes your play across all characters better.

Wonder Wing doesn't need a buff, it works fine for what it is, and if Banjo had slightly better KO capability in other areas then we wouldn't be entertaining the notion to buff it. Improving it only means Banjo will be relying all the more on what's already a crutch for key situations. If you give him some slightly safer KO options elsewhere though, that crutch instead becomes a tool. To that end, I agree that he's not impossible to buff and it's a silly notion. His kit is already well rounded, he just needs a little bit of juice so that he doesn't fall back on entirely predictable stock options.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Increasing Banjo's kill potential in some way can help him. Then again imagine how obnoxious the OG animal duo would be if he actually had decent kill power. Who has amazing zoning and neutral tools that is held back by not consistently being able to kill around 170%

 

[Frihetsanka]

So this is a tier list based on who has the best matchup chart, and it's been looking at what each pro player who mains the character thinks.

That's actually a combination of charts, the Public Tier list, and the PGR Tier list. If you look at just the charts (combined players' opinion and opponents' opinion) it looks like this: https://www.smashtierlist.com/f80cfb1b40d4882051b92c6fdc787e81993276ca309c1a450a3b2d2199c2a37e/

Some notable placements: Shulk at #3, Greninja at #6, Roy at #7, Lucina at #8, Mr. Game & Watch #9, Zero Suit Samus #10, Pichu #12, Inkling #17 (according to Inkling mains, apparently 7 losing MUs, according to opponents, 16!), Peach/Daisy #18, Wario #20, Lucas #21, Snake #22, Byleth #34, Bowser #39, Ness #52, Ganondorf worst in the game.

The Reddit thread, including the document, can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/fh1o6u/smash_ultimate_matchup_chart/

 

[TTTTTsd]

Out of the handful of moves Banjo has that I'd claim don't work to their max potential, Grenade Eggs would not be on that list. Aerial drift makes snatching the egg a non-issue if your purpose of using it is as a projectile, and the trajectory is specifically tailored the way it is so Banjo can double it as a landing/trapping option, specifically bolstering by the character's vertical prowess.

Why does it shoot backward? Technically because shooting eggs backwards was a thing in the games but why the grenade eggs specifically and why in this game? Because it's there to reinforce that it's mainly a defensive move, and retreating "away" is generally considered defense. Shooting forward is redundant, that's what his eggs are for. And despite being analogous to Snake's grenades which can be picked in neutral, they're intrinsically different in function. For one thing, Snake's grenades don't have an awkward bounce with a massive hitbox that explodes on contact.

"B-reversing places execution barriers" is also one of the most bewildering things I've read in a topic about competitive play as well. B-reversing is entry level tech. How does that concept suddenly make players not want to play Banjo? If you decide to pick up a character that has elements of a zoner, that should be engraved in your muscle memory. B-reversing is a universal mechanic, learning that makes your play across all characters better.

Wonder Wing doesn't need a buff, it works fine for what it is, and if Banjo had slightly better KO capability in other areas then we wouldn't be entertaining the notion to buff it. Improving it only means Banjo will be relying all the more on what's already a crutch for key situations. If you give him some slightly safer KO options elsewhere though, that crutch instead becomes a tool. To that end, I agree that he's not impossible to buff and it's a silly notion. His kit is already well rounded, he just needs a little bit of juice so that he doesn't fall back on entirely predictable stock options.

I personally think his raw kill power is fine, but I believe USmash could maybe hit a frame or two earlier and his standing grab and dashgrab ranges could match his hand a bit better and I think that'd be fine.

I think his Bury throw > Utilt setup is actually quite good. K. Rool's is more guaranteed but the nice thing about Banjo's Utilt is that even when it whiffs on a buried opponent he is actually still safe! Whiffing a kill setup and getting plus frames regardless feels kinda funny, but it helps make it not sting as much. Kind of brings me to my next point, I dont think the endlag on any of his smashes should be adjusted because he already boasts some of the lowest commitment grounded pokes in the game (Ftilt and Dtilt are just wild, and Utilt's FAF of 32 is impressive as well). I just think his grab should be more stable (seeing as it is what he's often going to close stocks with) and his USmash could stand to have faster startup for its initial hitbox as its endlag is quite high (it is EXCELLENT at killing post-bury at really high %s if your opponent lives that long though). I think better utilization of Banjo's DSmash would do wonders for the character, its FAF 47 which is honestly not bad at all for a Smash attack, and Frame 13 isn't too slow for a move with its coverage and lack of sourspots.

I think the true difficulty with the character is that he's quite honestly a lot of work, not what I'd call too much work, but more than a lot of other stronger choices. I think he's by no means terrible though, and is incredibly fun!

(Also Banjo's Grenades spawn like that because unlike Snake's nades, they also can't hurt him if they hit another character. Part of why its great as a defensive option!)

 

[Aaron1997]

Yeah I'm gonna not go to ceo dreamland. I just dont want to risk anything. Sorry

— 💧Light💧 (@Light_S21) March 12, 2020

Would not be shocked if this triggers a domino effect. (More people drop out)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Interesting to see. However, making something like this can be off-putting, because top player's opinion in terms of matchup charts vary very wildly (plus everyone's opinion on a lot of the characters in the game being very volatile as well).

Then you have the players who play the character themselves. We have the ones who think very highly on their own character (ESAM and VoiD), or those who think lowly on their own character (Dabuz and Samsora, at least relative to everyone else).

Was also not sure at first why Trainer's three Pokemon have their own tier spots, but then I do remember PkMn Trainer mains doing that a long time ago. Probably why solo Charizard's placement is so low, because Trainer mains historically had a low opinion on Charizard, especially during the first few months of the game.

Charizard really isn't as awful as everyone says he is. He has a recovery with super armor, is the only pokemon with recoveries that go both vertically and horizontally, THREE DIFFERENT KILL THROWS, excellent tilts that any super heavy would kill for, a surprisingly safe up smash, and with the new buffs a safe nair for landings.
He does have the problems of being a big target so he's easy to hit and his aerial speed is painfully average but ivysaur has those problems too. In fact when it comes to charizard I'd say he has the best survivability out of the group.
Squirtle's ridiculously light, so any really solid hit will lose a stock and with his short range, lack of projectiles, and low kill power the opponent will have plenty of opportunities to do so, squirtle can't win a game of attrition with the opponent, his playstyle isn't conductive to that. Ivysaur has average weight and actual, usable, projectiles but the projectiles are situational, razor leaf is laggy and bullet seed has no hitbox from the side making it easy to rush ivysaur down.
Charizard doesn't have these problems. His large body is made up for by the fact that he will survive for far longer than any of PT's other pokemon. It's really easy for charizard to survive past the 130% mark. Squirtle is within range by the 60% or 70% mark and Ivysaur is typically within range by the 90% to 100% mark.
That isn't to say Squirtle isn't good, he's excellent at damage racking and while his ground dash speed is slower than Charizard's his aerial weaving more than makes up for it. You typically send squirtle in to soften the opponent up then send in Ivysaur or Charizard to finish them off and Charizard finishes opponents off very well.

 

[Aaron1997]

Effective immediately, the PGR and TTS will be frozen. No further events including CEO Dreamland will count towards player ranking until travel is again safe worldwide.

Depending on the length of the freeze, this may lead to only one ranking at the end of the year.

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) March 12, 2020

And there goes the PGR....

 

[KirbySquad101]

Considering how far things have escalated, this was to be expected. I know this is getting into off-topic territory, but I wish nothing but the best for everyone here. Health and safety matter far more than a rank, and props to the PGStats for making this choice, as hard as it might've been.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Seems like Tsu, Abadango, Shogun, takera and Kishiru(?) made a tier-list together and are publishing them on YT.
It's in Japanese but may still be worth sharing.

C (low-tier):

Seems fairly reasonable to me, minus WFT.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Because of Trump's new policy, it seems as though Europeans (Glutonny, Leffen, QuiK, Space etc) can't go to any future American tournaments for 30 days.
Also Maister isn't going to CEO Dreamland.

I will no longer be attending CEO Dreamland due to Coronavirus concerns.

Im sorry for anyone who wanted to see me play this weekend or meet me, but I want to be safe and rather not risk it.

Health is first no matter what. :(

— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) March 12, 2020

 

[ARISTOS]

Effective immediately, the PGR and TTS will be frozen. No further events including CEO Dreamland will count towards player ranking until travel is again safe worldwide.

Depending on the length of the freeze, this may lead to only one ranking at the end of the year.

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) March 12, 2020

And there goes the PGR....

The biggest impact is the SWT and TOs I feel, they are going to lose a ton of money off of this if cities don't force some sort of refund effort.

Most major tournaments are only successful enough to run the next year's event, having to deal with stuff like this is likely disastrous.

 

[BitBitio]

Seems like Tsu, Abadango, Shogun, takera and Kishiru(?) made a tier-list together and are publishing them on YT.
It's in Japanese but may still be worth sharing.

C (low-tier):

Seems fairly reasonable to me, minus WFT.

For me personally, Incineroar is too low, Ganon, Doc, and Isabelle are too high, Belmont and Wii Fit should be in mid-tier, all the Miis should be down in low tier as well, DK and PPlant are low tier too. Kirby could also be higher.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Yeah not going RIP D:

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) March 12, 2020

Dabuz isn't going either.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Smash World Tour statement regarding COVID-19 pic.twitter.com/poqyS2ccGo

— Smash World Tour 2022 (@SmashWorldTour) March 12, 2020

Pound is cancelled:

With an incredibly heavy heart, we must announce that Pound 2020 is canceled. Please give us time to issue refunds as we have just about 1000 to process. If you'd like more information, make sure and check out the Smash World Tour's official statement here: https://t.co/80U2EdLOLt

— * POUND * (@pound_series) March 12, 2020

 

[Heracr055]

Would it be a good idea to lock the thread as there won't really be a point for awhile? Since all these events are getting cancelled & the PGR is essentially null for the year

Edit: I feel that adversity builds the best creativity so I actually predict a stagnation of progress, even though it seems like there will be more time to experiment since there's less events

 

[FruitLoop]

Would it be a good idea to lock the thread as there won't really be a point for awhile? Since all these events are getting cancelled & the PGR is essentially null for the year

Well even with PGR not being a thing for awhile, we can still make discoveries about the cast and still actively discuss the meta of different char's so nah it shouldn't be locked. Maybe we can reserve coronavirus updates for things like tournaments in another thread and have character impressions here still be the main priority.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

If anything we have an unique (not ideal obviously) situation regarding meta development over the next month or so. With no tournaments (My locals are being cancelled as well and I’m sure this is the case around the country) happening and people being confined to WiFi and their homes that leads to more free time to lab and make discoveries.

I’m interested in how this will play out in terms of meta development. Obviously would rather have things be back to normal, when it’s safe to be so, stay safe everyone.

 

[Arthur97]

This isn't a tournament thread. Just because there aren't tournaments doesn't mean that discussion has to stop.

 

[Vyrnx]

Here's quiK's 7.0 MU chart for Samus. He only included characters he feel like he has enough experience against.

Biggest surprises for me here are G&W at even (rather than losing) and Mario and Ness in losing, since these all run contrary to how I felt the MUs went in Smash 4--but I don't really play the character anymore. He spent a few hours making this chart (like ten minutes per character lol), so rather than writing condensed explanations I'd recommend watching his explanations on Twitch or once it's posted to YT (with timestamps) if interested.

 

[NairWizard]

disregard post

 

[SwagGuy99]

For me personally, Incineroar is too low, Ganon, Doc, and Isabelle are too high, Belmont and Wii Fit should be in mid-tier, all the Miis should be down in low tier as well, DK and PPlant are low tier too. Kirby could also be higher.

The entire list was already posted to twitter (IDK why since only part 1 is on Youtube).

So yeah, the Japanese meta seems like it's going in some wildly different directions from ours. I think that most players outside of Japan would agree that there are a lot of things that seem like kind of hot takes:

• ZSS at #1 is an opinion I have seen echoed by quite a few people now since 7.0.0, and I think that it's a possibility, even if I personally don't buy it.
• Fox at #4 seems quite high for a character who has volatile matchups against several characters in B Tier (Luigi, Bowser, Falco). I think he's good, but not Top 5.
• Pikachu at #10 seems quite low. Most people unanimously consider him Top 5 at this point, but with ESAM being on a bit of a break and lack of notable results of Pika in Japan as far as I know, it's understandable why they might put him that low.
• Inkling below Yoshi, Greninja, Link, and Pichu is something I actually agree with, but I know that most people still seem to think of her as a Top Tier, even with her best rep most likely dropping her.
• Duck Hunt and Lucas are both much higher than most people think of them.
• Luigi and Wii Fit are ranked below DK, Lucario, Plant, and Robin.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmmm tbh that tier list while it does have it's problems actually seems more fair. Though again we've gone over and over again why the chus aren't the top of top tier and I don't even think they're top five. Thing is I'm only sure that Joker and Palutena are in the top 5 in the tier lists and with joker's recent nerfs even THAT is uncertain.

 

[Rizen]

The entire list was already posted to twitter (IDK why since only part 1 is on Youtube).

So yeah, the Japanese meta seems like it's going in some wildly different directions from ours. I think that most players outside of Japan would agree that there are a lot of things that seem like kind of hot takes:

• ZSS at #1 is an opinion I have seen echoed by quite a few people now since 7.0.0, and I think that it's a possibility, even if I personally don't buy it.
• Fox at #4 seems quite high for a character who has volatile matchups against several characters in B Tier (Luigi, Bowser, Falco). I think he's good, but not Top 5.
• Pikachu at #10 seems quite low. Most people unanimously consider him Top 5 at this point, but with ESAM being on a bit of a break and lack of notable results of Pika in Japan as far as I know, it's understandable why they might put him that low.
• Inkling below Yoshi, Greninja, Link, and Pichu is something I actually agree with, but I know that most people still seem to think of her as a Top Tier, even with her best rep most likely dropping her.
• Duck Hunt and Lucas are both much higher than most people think of them.
• Luigi and Wii Fit are ranked below DK, Lucario, Plant, and Robin.

I find it funny that people are putting as top tier even though it's one player doing extremely well with him and carrying him (Maister) yet is in the exact same position with Tea doing much better than anyone else and no one puts Pac in top tier. Honorable mentions to who has T doing better than everyone else but no one overrates him anymore.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The entire list was already posted to twitter (IDK why since only part 1 is on Youtube).

So yeah, the Japanese meta seems like it's going in some wildly different directions from ours. I think that most players outside of Japan would agree that there are a lot of things that seem like kind of hot takes:

• ZSS at #1 is an opinion I have seen echoed by quite a few people now since 7.0.0, and I think that it's a possibility, even if I personally don't buy it.
• Fox at #4 seems quite high for a character who has volatile matchups against several characters in B Tier (Luigi, Bowser, Falco). I think he's good, but not Top 5.
• Pikachu at #10 seems quite low. Most people unanimously consider him Top 5 at this point, but with ESAM being on a bit of a break and lack of notable results of Pika in Japan as far as I know, it's understandable why they might put him that low.
• Inkling below Yoshi, Greninja, Link, and Pichu is something I actually agree with, but I know that most people still seem to think of her as a Top Tier, even with her best rep most likely dropping her.
• Duck Hunt and Lucas are both much higher than most people think of them.
• Luigi and Wii Fit are ranked below DK, Lucario, Plant, and Robin.

Some things to note on top of what you said:

• I was actually surprised at first that they would that high in their tier list considering that the region DOESN'T house ESAM (as well as their Brawl Pikachu placement still engraved in our heads). However, under further inspection, the character has more reps in Japan than expected. There is Kishiru, of course, but there is also Kisa, Naginu, and Renya. Pika's results still isn't all that impressive in Japan for his tier placement, and there is definitely some of the "oh he is small and dumb" mentality doing around, but at least Japan's placement on Pika is somewhat understandable.
• is also ranked noticeably lower than we do here. Most players here consider her top 5, or at the very least top 10 (with the reps and results to back it up). Now in the Japan list, they put Peach out of the top 10.
• The distribution of the Links is rather unusual. We have being at the bottom of A tier. With TLink being slightly higher, they think YLink is the worst of the three Links, as opposed to being the best of the three like here in America. It does make sense considering the rather minimal Young Link play at Japan. is however ranked significantly higher than both of them, being near the top of A tier. T existing in Japan is a big influence, but it interesting to note.
• is ranked notably higher than most other players. This is most likely thanks to Kirhara getting some nice results from time to time with the character.
• and are ranked lower than what you would expect for a Japanese tier list, considering how much Tea and Shuton tears up the region, especially when you consider that they put as the second-best character in the game. The same goes for , but with Kameme focusing with Wario lately, it is sort of understandable.
• There is being ranked that high and being ranked that low. However, considering that this is by far Banjo's most populous region, as well as Japan historically getting very little Bowser players (even back in SSB4), it is understandable.
• Yikes! When Japan themselves think that are that low, then you know that the character needs some support. Still waiting for Earth to come back, but still...
• I find it interesting that is ranked as the second worst character in Japan's tier list, considering that this is the region that houses Arika, the only Jigglypuff player in the world that gets remotely any form of notable results with the character. But yeah, the character definitely needs more help at the moment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now after analyzing multiple Japan tier lists across the lifetime of Ultimate, is that past impressions on a character seems to leave a good mark on future tier lists despite the character's current performances.
The two biggest culprits right now, at least according to this list, seems to be and , especially the former.

• As we all know, Taiheitawas tearing up Japan at the second-half of 2016 (and briefly in 2017 as well), which left a lasting impression on the character's metagame as a whole. Even after Taiheita's results dropped off, Taiheita as a whole retiring by the end of 2017, and Lucas' results as a whole semi-stagnating in Japan afterwards, Japan still viewed Lucas very highly for pretty much the rest of SSB4. Now in Ultimate, very little to no players exist in Japan, as whoever notable left who main him in SSB4 in Japan doesn't play Ultimate. Reumina is the only notable Lucas player in Japan left, but he ranked 91st in the Japan Player Rankings. However, Lucas is still ranked very highly throughout the entirety of Ultimate's lifetime, and oftentimes above , despite this being the region of Gackt. This tier list is actually one of the very few instances of Japan ranking Ness above Lucas, but even then it is only by one spot.

I am not saying that the character is bad at all (far from it), but I find it strange that the major region that is starving the most for Lucas results is ironically the region that consistently views the character in the most positive light by far.

At this point, it is pretty much law for Lucas to be ranked high in Japan tier lists. lol

I do think this is also partly due to Japan historically not viewing Ness highly at all, even as far back as Brawl.
In their official tier list in Brawl, they put Ness at 30th (which is lower than Mario and Bowser), and 6 placements below Lucas.
Then again, their Brawl tier list was, weird to say the least (Pikachu at 22nd?!?).

• is ranked above the C tier, and above characters like Robin, Villager, Luigi, and Wii Fit Trainer. Now despite Brood dropping the character for , his impact with PPlant in the Japan scene has left a lasting impression on the character to not drop to the C tier, despite being one of the most stagnate characters in the game in the current moment.

Now I may be completely wrong with my analysis, as they did rank characters like much lower than they would otherwise if they are influenced by past performances. Then again, Japan works in strange ways.


Edit: Something I just noticed right now is that they didn't rank the Miis whatsoever. Not sure why, considering that Japan is arguably the strongest region for notable Mii results, but I guess it is due to uncertainty?
Might want some insight on this.

 

[Cheryl~]

Some things to note on top of what you said:

• I was actually surprised at first that they would that high in their tier list considering that the region DOESN'T house ESAM (as well as their Brawl Pikachu placement still engraved in our heads). However, under further inspection, the character has more reps in Japan than expected. There is Kishiru, of course, but there is also Kisa, Naginu, and Renya. Pika's results still isn't all that impressive in Japan for his tier placement, and there is definitely some of the "oh he is small and dumb" mentality doing around, but at least Japan's placement on Pika is somewhat understandable.
• is also ranked noticeably lower than we do here. Most players here consider her top 5, or at the very least top 10 (with the reps and results to back it up). Now in the Japan list, they put Peach out of the top 10.
• The distribution of the Links is rather unusual. We have being at the bottom of A tier. With TLink being slightly higher, they think YLink is the worst of the three Links, as opposed to being the best of the three like here in America. It does make sense considering the rather minimal Young Link play at Japan. is however ranked significantly higher than both of them, being near the top of A tier. T existing in Japan is a big influence, but it interesting to note.
• is ranked notably higher than most other players. This is most likely thanks to Kirhara getting some nice results from time to time with the character.
• and are ranked lower than what you would expect for a Japanese tier list, considering how much Tea and Shuton tears up the region, especially when you consider that they put as the second-best character in the game. The same goes for , but with Kameme focusing with Wario lately, it is sort of understandable.
• There is being ranked that high and being ranked that low. However, considering that this is by far Banjo's most populous region, as well as Japan historically getting very little Bowser players (even back in SSB4), it is understandable.
• Yikes! When Japan themselves think that are that low, then you know that the character needs some support. Still waiting for Earth to come back, but still...
• I find it interesting that is ranked as the second worst character in Japan's tier list, considering that this is the region that houses Arika, the only Jigglypuff player in the world that gets remotely any form of notable results with the character. But yeah, the character definitely needs more help at the moment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now after analyzing multiple Japan tier lists across the lifetime of Ultimate, is that past impressions on a character seems to leave a good mark on future tier lists despite the character's current performances.
The two biggest culprits right now, at least according to this list, seems to be and , especially the former.

• As we all know, Taiheitawas tearing up Japan at the second-half of 2016 (and briefly in 2017 as well), which left a lasting impression on the character's metagame as a whole. Even after Taiheita's results dropped off, Taiheita as a whole retiring by the end of 2017, and Lucas' results as a whole semi-stagnating in Japan afterwards, Japan still viewed Lucas very highly for pretty much the rest of SSB4. Now in Ultimate, very little to no players exist in Japan, as whoever notable left who main him in SSB4 in Japan doesn't play Ultimate. Reumina is the only notable Lucas player in Japan left, but he ranked 91st in the Japan Player Rankings. However, Lucas is still ranked very highly throughout the entirety of Ultimate's lifetime, and oftentimes above , despite this being the region of Gackt. This tier list is actually one of the very few instances of Japan ranking Ness above Lucas, but even then it is only by one spot.

I am not saying that the character is bad at all (far from it), but I find it strange that the major region that is starving the most for Lucas results is ironically the region that consistently views the character in the most positive light by far.

At this point, it is pretty much law for Lucas to be ranked high in Japan tier lists. lol

I do think this is also partly due to Japan historically not viewing Ness highly at all, even as far back as Brawl.
In their official tier list in Brawl, they put Ness at 30th (which is lower than Mario and Bowser), and 6 placements below Lucas.
Then again, their Brawl tier list was, weird to say the least (Pikachu at 22nd?!?).

• is ranked above the C tier, and above characters like Robin, Villager, Luigi, and Wii Fit Trainer. Now despite Brood dropping the character for , his impact with PPlant in the Japan scene has left a lasting impression on the character to not drop to the C tier, despite being one of the most stagnate characters in the game in the current moment.

Now I may be completely wrong with my analysis, as they did rank characters like much lower than they would otherwise if they are influenced by past performances. Then again, Japan works in strange ways.

Have to nitpick about the Lucas thing but there are multiple high-level Lucas players who compete in Japan along with Reumina. 8Mitsuki, while most known for his online presence dominating Japan's Wi-Fi ladder with wins on players like Shuton and Ron, does compete offline in his region which houses some pretty great players, most notably Beji, the second best Pac-Man in Japan. There is also Hakadama's Lucas (who played him in Smash 4) who competes in his region as well with players like Nao (one of Japan's best Marios), among a few others that I have forgotten to list. The issue is that while I believe Japan's Lucases have superior tech skill (and potentially neutral) than every other Lucas, they hardly ever travel outside of their own regions or stick to online mainly, meaning it's hard to gauge if they have the skill to stand up to Lucas players like ChocoTaco, Mekos and Remi. (although 8Mitsuki is pretty clearly at that level imo if you watch his play) Either way their footage gives us Lucas mains a lot of great ideas for how to advance our tech and advantage state especially which helps advance Lucas' meta as a whole.

tl;dr at least add 8Mitsuki and Hakadama to your list of notable Japanese Lucases, also someone PLEASE give 8Mitsuki his own SSBWiki page it's kind of a crime that he doesn't have one at this point

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The entire list was already posted to twitter (IDK why since only part 1 is on Youtube).

So yeah, the Japanese meta seems like it's going in some wildly different directions from ours. I think that most players outside of Japan would agree that there are a lot of things that seem like kind of hot takes:

• ZSS at #1 is an opinion I have seen echoed by quite a few people now since 7.0.0, and I think that it's a possibility, even if I personally don't buy it.
• Fox at #4 seems quite high for a character who has volatile matchups against several characters in B Tier (Luigi, Bowser, Falco). I think he's good, but not Top 5.
• Pikachu at #10 seems quite low. Most people unanimously consider him Top 5 at this point, but with ESAM being on a bit of a break and lack of notable results of Pika in Japan as far as I know, it's understandable why they might put him that low.
• Inkling below Yoshi, Greninja, Link, and Pichu is something I actually agree with, but I know that most people still seem to think of her as a Top Tier, even with her best rep most likely dropping her.
• Duck Hunt and Lucas are both much higher than most people think of them.
• Luigi and Wii Fit are ranked below DK, Lucario, Plant, and Robin.

Fox is totally because Light regularly defeats Japan often, and Paseriman doing very well recently. That's it really.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Have to nitpick about the Lucas thing but there are multiple high-level Lucas players who compete in Japan along with Reumina. 8Mitsuki, while most known for his online presence dominating Japan's Wi-Fi ladder with wins on players like Shuton and Ron, does compete offline in his region which houses some pretty great players, most notably Beji, the second best Pac-Man in Japan. There is also Hakadama's Lucas (who played him in Smash 4) who competes in his region as well with players like Nao (one of Japan's best Marios), among a few others that I have forgotten to list. The issue is that while I believe Japan's Lucases have superior tech skill (and potentially neutral) than every other Lucas, they hardly ever travel outside of their own regions or stick to online mainly, meaning it's hard to gauge if they have the skill to stand up to Lucas players like ChocoTaco, Mekos and Remi. (although 8Mitsuki is pretty clearly at that level imo if you watch his play) Either way their footage gives us Lucas mains a lot of great ideas for how to advance our tech and advantage state especially which helps advance Lucas' meta as a whole.

tl;dr at least add 8Mitsuki and Hakadama to your list of notable Japanese Lucases, also someone PLEASE give 8Mitsuki his own SSBWiki page it's kind of a crime that he doesn't have one at this point

Well the main reason why I didn't know about these players is because they don't have their own SSBWiki page (or mentioned at all in their list of active Lucas players), but I will take all of this under notice.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Final Saga is delayed:

A message from the 2GG Team pic.twitter.com/hnGWYuK42Y

— 2GG (@2GGaming) March 13, 2020

As for the tier-list above: I agree with the placement, however I think she and have potential to go higher once their meta gets more explored but there are other things to worry about right now.
placement is ok. I'd like that Dabuz and co. would stop downplaying this character. Such a dumb character...Yes, I'm salty, but this character has so many tool and while she isn't as "braindead" as her Sm4sh incarnation, she still has a lot going for her and the bigger shield helps as well.

 

[Firox]

As for the tier-list above: I agree with the placement, however I think she has potential to go higher once her meta gets more explored

You mean like when the vast majority of Zelda mains discover the A button? lol jk. I just can't stand how many online Zelda's think that Phantom, Teleport and Neutral B are her only moves.

 

[SwagGuy99]

The two biggest culprits right now, at least according to this list, seems to be and , especially the former.

• As we all know, Taiheitawas tearing up Japan at the second-half of 2016 (and briefly in 2017 as well), which left a lasting impression on the character's metagame as a whole. Even after Taiheita's results dropped off, Taiheita as a whole retiring by the end of 2017, and Lucas' results as a whole semi-stagnating in Japan afterwards, Japan still viewed Lucas very highly for pretty much the rest of SSB4. Now in Ultimate, very little to no players exist in Japan, as whoever notable left who main him in SSB4 in Japan doesn't play Ultimate. Reumina is the only notable Lucas player in Japan left, but he ranked 91st in the Japan Player Rankings. However, Lucas is still ranked very highly throughout the entirety of Ultimate's lifetime, and oftentimes above , despite this being the region of Gackt. This tier list is actually one of the very few instances of Japan ranking Ness above Lucas, but even then it is only by one spot.

I am not saying that the character is bad at all (far from it), but I find it strange that the major region that is starving the most for Lucas results is ironically the region that consistently views the character in the most positive light by far.

At this point, it is pretty much law for Lucas to be ranked high in Japan tier lists. lol

I do find it weird that is so high, especially when the most likely reasoning for and being lower is lack of consistent results despite most people agreeing that they both have the movesets and matchups of top tier characters.

That being said, I actually agree with the placing, but agree that it's hard to back it up given his lack of results. He has pretty strong tools and despite lacking consistent results at larger tournaments, I can very much see him as a character like or who are/were regarded as decent characters despite having their most notable results come from just a small handful of players.

Overall, lacks a good OOS game and a good answer to long disjoints, but he's pretty solid in most other regards. His recovery is surprisingly versatile and risky to edgeguard, his edgeguarding options are pretty good, his mobility is overall mediocre but some of his moves allow him to alter his mobility, giving him mixups, his hitboxes are very disjointed, his projectile game is solid, his combo game is good, his grab game is good, and his kill power is good.

Most things about Lucas, are pretty good, except for the weaknesses I already mentioned, and I do see him as a character that will be considered better as time goes on, like was.

 

[Megamang]

Shiek seems low, right beside meta knight. I know she is still unproven, but you would think Void beating Zackray would have left an impression since he is pretty dominant in Japan. Or maybe meta knight is high? I hear and see nothing about that character, though I do not follow Japan that closely. Can anyone point me towards some sets? He seems like a character that got a bit better, but everyone else rocketed past him. The oppressive safe hitboxes and deadly juggle games make it hard to be a bat in this world, especially when his SH aerials are rather lackluster compared to others'. I mean they're usable now but they aren't really anything like Mario bair (though what is?).


But... his nair is amazing. If he gets you offstage you are probably in trouble, though their best character in the region being ZSS probably devalues edgeguarding a bit.


Mewtwo is another character I think is better, but I totally understand that he is unproven and has some pretty severe vulnerabilities. MKLeo makes him look pretty scary though. And shadow ball + reflector is always good, always.

 

[Krysco]

Speaking of Mewtwo, there's someone I follow on Twitter who shows a bunch of combos, strings and other tech with Mewtwo. Goes by the tag Anbil. Not sure if he's got results but the stuff he shows off is neat regardless. He made a thread to document all the stuff he's found as well so for anyone interested, here ya go: https://twitter.com/AnbilM2/status/1184543425175216134

I'm personally still waiting to see if they reduce his tail hurtbox before I ever consider picking the character back up, seeing as how he was one of my best back in Smash 4. Either that or at least make his strengths enough to offset having the 6th lowest weight while also having such a huge hurtbox. People like to complain about Ridley not being heavy enough but I find even he's less stressful to use than Mewtwo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I also think Diddy is estimated too low all the time. How is he always the middlest of mid tiers, but has good matchups against Top Tier characters as Palutena, Joker, Pokémon Trainer, Peach, Lucina, Roy and Chrom? He's not losing all that many matchups outside of Megaman, Olimar, Links, Fox and Pikachu. I certainly fail to see him ranking lower than Banjo, Byleth, Ryu and Ike. Lowest of High Tier is where I'd put him. Lack of early results is not a thing that could determine a characters current placement I think.

 

[|RK|]

I also think Diddy is estimated too low all the time. How is he always the middlest of mid tiers, but has good matchups against Top Tier characters as Palutena, Joker, Pokémon Trainer, Peach, Lucina, Roy and Chrom? He's not losing all that many matchups outside of Megaman, Olimar, Links, Fox and Pikachu. I certainly fail to see him ranking lower than Banjo, Byleth, Ryu and Ike. Lowest of High Tier is where I'd put him. Lack of early results is not a thing that could determine a characters current placement I think.

Oh, another entertaining note for you. ZeRo was playing friendlies with people at Frostbite, using Diddy and Mario. Sadly no VODs, but I heard he's still amazing - no surprises there.

Anyways, I could personally see Diddy somewhere in high tier - but not at the peak yet.

EDIT: And Player-1 just beat Marss with Diddy