Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NairWizard]

To add, Kuro posted on Twitter (https://twitter.com/_kuro258/status/1238852407045566464) that Diddy is a bad MU for ZSS.

Diddy beats (not goes even with, beats) almost every disjointed spacing character in the game, including ZSS, Palutena, Shulk, Lucina, Chrom/Roy, and your other top-tier favorites. The only major exception is Rosalina, because she negates banana--an incredibly overpowered neutral tool that singlepeeledly shuts down certain styles of play, so if you don't have an immediate answer and your usual gameplan is to space out disjoints, you're screwed.

This is such a beautiful character to me, because his advantage state is lukewarm/mediocre outside of the infinite, and his disadvantage state is outright bad in most matchups--Diddy is 250% neutral, and to play him properly you just have to beat your opponent into submission in the neutral over and over and over and over again by having better reactions and making better decisions. It can get really tedious to play Diddy in this game because you get so little for winning an exchange sometimes, and you often have to do the same thing repeatedly (such as sit in shield with banana and wait, or repeatedly dash back), but it's so satisfying when you win with him.

He has some rough matchups for sure where he gets cleanly outrewarded and can't really play the neutral to his heart's content (like I'd imagine that he'd get shredded to little bits and pieces against ROB), but I'd say he's a very solid choice if you're duo-maining or counterpicking.

In a game where whiff punishing is mostly dead (which is why Inkling struggles to see as much success as some people theorized) and neutral is so random up close and at midrange, there are a handful of characters who continue to play the traditional smash style and play calculated neutrals instead of guessing. Sheiks, MKLeo's Joker, Japanese ZSS players, and now some of the Diddys. Very satisfying to me as a Brawl vet.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Oh, another entertaining note for you. ZeRo was playing friendlies with people at Frostbite, using Diddy and Mario. Sadly no VODs, but I heard he's still amazing - no surprises there.

Anyways, I could personally see Diddy somewhere in high tier - but not at the peak yet.

EDIT: And Player-1 just beat Marss with Diddy

I think it's because people are slowly returning back to playing Diddy again, because they already know how to play the character perhaps due to Smash 4 investments, and Diddy not being as terrible as originally thought. I've seen lots of great Diddy plays recently, Dakpo isn't the only Diddy around anymore.

Think he'll end up being High Tide, but not Top Tier unless some more buffs happen. What he needs is more reliable moves to land kills with, not that he doesn't have options, but those become stale quickly like U Smash for example. Being able to land kills with F Air or U Air would help a lot, same with Side B kick. Gives him something fast to throw out for securing kills without having to rely on Banana or D Tilt to U Smash. His disadvantage is also bad, so better air speed or overal better recovery to help live longer would help too. Faster grabs to help his somewhat lacking boxing or overall quick reaction tools would be great too.

Above post is a great description of how Diddy plays in Ultimate, he's a very defensive , neutral based rush down character, neutral is his strength and where you need to focus on all the time. It's indeed satisfying to play Diddy, but also very frustrating. The engine works with this too, and losing the first stock is EXTREMELY demotivating. I hardly have seen Diddy win after losing the first stock, and that's because he's very momentum based too. His kills also don't come fast, unlike say Mewtwo, so turning the match around doesn't happen so much. And that's why his disadvantage being so bad hurts him a lot. What Diddy needs is a way to shake off enemies better, and not get combo's as hard as he does now. Not to speak of his recovery, which I already did.

 

[Cheryl~]

while the tournament isn't PGR'd anymore CEO Dreamland is still managing to be a decently sized and hype tournament with a lot of crazy upsets happening. Here is the top 24:

Winners Side:
Vinny G vs. ZD
Uncivil Ninja vs. Gackt
Samsora vs. Kobe
Aaron vs. Goblin

Losers Side:
Venia vs. J12
Anathema vs. MuteAce
MVD vs. Marss (that's rough)
LingLing vs. Rideae
Epic_Gabriel vs. Myran
Fuji vs. Evyn
Kola vs. Kuro
Player-1 vs. Capitancito

If you're wondering how players like Marss and Kuro got sent to Losers, well Marss was upset by Player-1 early in pools, and Kuro lost to Anathema a few rounds later. Both barely managed to make it to Top 24 beating Gen and Puppeh 2-1 respectively.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Samsora vs. Kobe

We will see if Samsora finally gets the Young Link matchup down after his recent losing streak against them.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

We will see if Samsora finally gets the Young Link matchup down after his recent losing streak against them.

Samsora won.

Also Aaron just got into Top 8. Guess it's time to talk more about .

 

[Diddy Kong]

Samsora won.

Also Aaron just got into Top 8. Guess it's time to talk more about .

We talked lots about him. All Diddy needed was a dedicated main, and he has one now with Aaron and Dakpo. Player 1 is also doing great.

It's easy to see how he's been overlooked, despite being Top Tier in Smash 4, there where not all that many Diddy players compared to other Top Tiers. This is a technical and defensive character, strong learning curve too. Nerfs in Ultimate and the rush down based engine make his popularity even lower than before.

However, what he has as tools remains great. He's got awesome dash speed, and makes great use of it. Banana is the best neutral tool in the game, and Diddy does great against swordies (without projectiles), and characters like ZSS, Palutena and Joker, the last 3 being easy Top 5 or Top 10 characters. D Tilt leads nicely into itself and U Smash, and Diddy's U Smash is one of the fastest in the game. Very good frame data, and can rack up damage nicely if he just gets a hit in. D Tilt is great on reaction, and can get a whole lot going.

I predict Diddy will end up somewhere in the Top 20 eventually.

 

[Y2Kay]

I had a gut feeling Diddy would be a problem character, and wrote this up a few months ago.

Kinda Greninja specific at some parts but give me y’all thoughts if u want:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ClC4p6W0RN2ZkpUlHfGODDBg0QDyu6Q_d1U2-xygd7w

 

[Cheryl~]

CEO Dreamland Top 8:

Winners Semis:

ZD vs. Gackt
Samsora vs. Aaron

Losers Top 8:

Marss vs. Venia
Kola vs. Epic_Gabriel

 

[Lacrimosa]

I had a gut feeling Diddy would be a problem character, and wrote this up a few months ago.

Kinda Greninja specific at some parts but give me y’all thoughts if u want:

Before we talk about that: What was Aaron's bracket like?
If he fought many MUs that favors Diddy then is he really a "problem" character?


E: Apparantly Sam's Zelda took one game of LingLing...yay?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well Marss definetly adapted to the MU after his early upset to Player 1 . Marss 3-0 Aaron eliminating him at 5th place.

It is still a strong showing for diddy this tournament all things considered

 

[SwagGuy99]

Before we talk about that: What was Aaron's bracket like?
If he fought many MUs that favors Diddy then is he really a "problem" character?


E: Apparantly Sam's Zelda took one game of LingLing...yay?

I can't track down who Dingus Joe (or anyone in his pool) used, but here are the notable players Arron beat to get to Top 8 and the characters they used:

• Dingus Joe (possibly used ? went 2 - 0)
• Puppeh (used went 2 - 0)
• Anathemia (used went 3 - 0)
• Goblin (used went 3 - 2)

So, to be honest, he didn't really go against any really bad MUs for Diddy unless it was in the earlier rounds of pools.

In Top 8, he went against Samsora's and went 2 - 3 before going against Marss's and losing 0 - 3.

I guess Marss used what he learned from his round against player-1 yesterday to beat Aaron today, but overall, it was a pretty good run from Aaron.

 

[toonito]

Between Kola and Goblin's runs in 2020 is firmly in the spotlight of Ultimate's meta at the top level. Going from shadow in Melee to arguably the best swordfighter in Ultimate currently will players continue to find success with the character or is this just a case of players not yet adjusting to the character. The timing is unfortunate but has been making waves.

 

[|RK|]

Dabuz once said that Roy is the type of character that gets better as your understanding of the game gets better, and man do I see it.

People will use this to call Roy busted, and by virtue of being a top tier, he kind of is... But Kola did well through smart decision-making combined with Roy's oppression. Was beautiful to watch.

Oh, and Lucina is probably the same way (gets better the more you understand the game), but isn't as explosive.

 

[The_Bookworm]

CEO Dreamland 2020 (Used to be A tier and more stacked)

1st: Samsora $2024
2nd: Kola $1012
3rd: ZD $759
4th: Marss $506
5th: Aaron $253
5th: Gackt $253
7th: Venia $126.5
7th: Epic_Gabriel $126.5
9th: Kobe
9th: Uncivil ninja
9th: Goblin
9th: Vinny G
13th: LingLing
13th: CapitanCito
13th: fuji
13th: Anathema
17th: Myran
17th: MVD
17th: Kuro
17th: Player-1
17th: Rideae
17th: MuteAce
17th: J12
17th: Evyn

Decently stacked, although it could've been even more stacked if it weren't for the last-minute decision to un-PGR the event, resulting in multiple DQs.
Oh well. Safety comes first.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Glutonny put out a -MU char in collaboration with Meru

(Can't seem to add a screenshots showing the whole right right now)

Looks like a Top 5-10 character.

 

[Megamang]

Definitely a top 5-10 character. I think we've seen he can weave around disjoints well enough. Heavy, reward, cheese factor... Wario is fine. Safer aerials are great for him, bair killing is way less risky.

 

[ARISTOS]

I had a gut feeling Diddy would be a problem character, and wrote this up a few months ago.

Kinda Greninja specific at some parts but give me y’all thoughts if u want:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ClC4p6W0RN2ZkpUlHfGODDBg0QDyu6Q_d1U2-xygd7w

I think this covers the crux of a lot of Diddy MUs.

The only things I would add are:

- Diddy's disjoint on key moves are not large, and given his airspeed he's locked into a specific threat range if he doesn't have banana - that's where you'll want to attack at.

- Diddy's ability to get out of the corner is pretty bad - main thing is to watch for Monkey Flip. This is just a key move to watch for in general, made much harder in tournament since you won't have the audio feedback.

- Don't let Diddy get away with throwing Banana on shield. Learn how to pick it up off the bounce and you significantly weaken Diddy's midrange play

 

[Megamang]

It seems like Zero's iconic losses all came from Monkey flip being called out, IIRC. At least the palu one it was really clearly his panic option and palu upair slashed it up.


Yea, hes really slow.


But... can we acknowledge this about quick attack and to some extent flip kick? they're obviously packed with pros, but there are cons. ZSS can escape reasonably just by being fast as hell and some characters cannot even reach flip kick. Pika... call out QA's when you get him in bad positions, you'll have a better chance than you think to just call it out and keep him suspended.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Since there's really nothing going on, I might post some tier-lists or MU charts I stumble across.

Samsora's 7.0 tierlist

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Unlike the Peach MU chart, this looks fairly reasonable.

Dunno, if someone would consider this player a top-player, but Enki, a French main put out a new Pika MU-chart that looks somewhat similar to ESAM's:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like more theorycrafting is now the thing and that's more than just understandable.

 

[williamsga555]

With tournaments across the globe dwindling into suspensions given the pandemic, now would be the perfect time to discuss some more intricate matchup nuances.

One aspect of certain character's kits that I don't see utilized nor discussed that often are zairs. They're a rarity in this massive cast, but have a rather unique attacking functionality of being a dedicated aerial poke. Across the board, zairs range in shield safety from -2 to -4 on shield (to my knowledge), and obviously feature impressive horizontal reach. For some characters (namely, in my own personal experience, Toon Link and Young Link), zair can even lead to very dangerous tech chase scenarios (maybe confirms as well, if I remember prior discussion correctly?).

Young Link, recently, is becoming a more popular character and has had very notable recent success, so let's use him as an example.

The scenario is as follows: you're hovering around 100%, give or take, and Young Link is in the lead (I believe the exact lead is fairly inconsequential, but feel free to specify if you wish). He's already made the threat of zair known earlier in your match, so you know the possibility of him using it is there. You're also a well-informed player, so you know that nair is a very potent (and fast!) option if you rush in too closely.

When Young Link jumps in neutral in this situation, what is your character's best means of punishing him, knowing that his zair range is a tangible threat?

(this is not implying it's unpunishable, to be clear...rather, I'm just trying to give you as specific of a situation as possible to generate matchup discussion. For all I know, maybe your character has a very easy and obvious answer to this!)

 

[BitBitio]

With tournaments across the globe dwindling into suspensions given the pandemic, now would be the perfect time to discuss some more intricate matchup nuances.

One aspect of certain character's kits that I don't see utilized nor discussed that often are zairs. They're a rarity in this massive cast, but have a rather unique attacking functionality of being a dedicated aerial poke. Across the board, zairs range in shield safety from -2 to -4 on shield (to my knowledge), and obviously feature impressive horizontal reach. For some characters (namely, in my own personal experience, Toon Link and Young Link), zair can even lead to very dangerous tech chase scenarios (maybe confirms as well, if I remember prior discussion correctly?).

Young Link, recently, is becoming a more popular character and has had very notable recent success, so let's use him as an example.

The scenario is as follows: you're hovering around 100%, give or take, and Young Link is in the lead (I believe the exact lead is fairly inconsequential, but feel free to specify if you wish). He's already made the threat of zair known earlier in your match, so you know the possibility of him using it is there. You're also a well-informed player, so you know that nair is a very potent (and fast!) option if you rush in too closely.

When Young Link jumps in neutral in this situation, what is your character's best means of punishing him, knowing that his zair range is a tangible threat?

(this is not implying it's unpunishable, to be clear...rather, I'm just trying to give you as specific of a situation as possible to generate matchup discussion. For all I know, maybe your character has a very easy and obvious answer to this!)

Interestingly, has a surprisingly useful tool here. Final Cutter is a disjointed anti air that can directly contest YL zair, which can set up an edgeguard and rack damage. Additionally, Kirby can crouch and completely bypass the threat of getting zair’ed and also has the option of spot dodging a possible nair. If YL throws out the zair, Kirby can catch the landing with dash attack or an anti air such as pivot cancel up tilt, nair, up air, or up smash depending on percent.

Also, I like Samsora’s tier list a lot.

 

[blackghost]

samsora is low high tier and mid tier is some o fthe most confusing i've seen in a while. those zelda buffs people were so excited about are they actually making a difference?
bayonetta is not better than robin or zelda.
im gonna need some reasoning for banjo and byleth placement as well. both seem high.

 

[Megamang]

As Pika i'd probably pull up my shield and shoot for parry timing on the landing aerial, lean my timing towards whichever he has been using more the last minute or so. Probably try and space back enough that nair wouldn't hit. Drop shield -> dtilt is what I would go for, timed to hit landing, it could set up a kill really well and if it whiffs it isn't game over right there.

Alternatively I would RAR an uair timed to right when he jumps.

As ZSS... id try to avoid that spacing. My zair is bigger. If he invades that zone, its SH Fair to stuff him out. But that is a risk because he could just call it out with a usmash I guess. Here, my zair being bigger is really nice, but the great rewards come when you're drifting forward.

 

[Lacrimosa]

samsora is low high tier and mid tier is some o fthe most confusing i've seen in a while. those zelda buffs people were so excited about are they actually making a difference?
bayonetta is not better than robin or zelda.
im gonna need some reasoning for banjo and byleth placement as well. both seem high.

I would say yes but one thing these buffs didn't address are her weaknesses.
But first the good stuff: Din's Fire is actually useable because it kills reliably characters of stage now. Meaning you don't have to go off-stage as her and the opponent must do something. So, they will either die to the move or, because they have to do something, give Zelda enough time to properly set up a phantom for ledgetrapping where she is really good at because Phantom covers roll-in (because it has a windbox that drags people into the active hitbox), get-up attack and keep hanging on the ledge. Imo she has issues against tethers, though. And while the phantom covers these options, she can still cover the roll, normal get-up and the jump. The latter thanks to the buffed upAir quite well now. You really don't want to be on the ledge against her, since the phantom kills better now. Her specials do actually work now, even her sideB is good now. It's like a better Palutena sideB when the opponent is off-stage.

But that's probably where the notable stuff ends: SideB, DownB and upAir are all great moves now.
Leaving fTilt and nAir. These moves are still fairly useless in neutral, especially the former (fSmash is bigger, longer active but maybe not as safe if not spaced correctly). There's basically still zero use for fTilt. It should have received a buff similar to upAir: It should stay out longer, it's only active for 2 frames which is awful.
Her nAir still doesn't fit that well. Not because of its framedata (which is on the same level as 's nAir for example) but more because of 2 things:
The angle it sends opponents away makes it a fairly useless tool at low percents since it's no combo-starter. Not a really bad thing but there are surely better nAirs out there.
The 2nd reason has less to do with the move itself bur rather with Zelda's air acceleration. One reason why Palu is so good at using nAir is that her air acceleration is really great and that makes it really hard to punish the move when she jumps and nairs you. Zelda's pretty average there but she has less aerial drift when using it as a rising aerial (same reason as to why fAir/bAir are so hard to use). Meaning she can't really attack the shield with both aerials and grounded moves and that hurt the neutral game. Basically, her air speed is ok but she's too slow when she jumps and uses aerials.
That is one weakness that didn't get addressed with the patch and that's the time it takes her to reach full air speed which would still be average but much better than Palu for example.
And yes, I keep comparing her to Palu because Palu's aerial game with nAir is really good and Zelda's is average at best. Palu also has bigger hitboxes but one thing that's a difference is the speed these two move when using these moves on the shield in neutral. Palu is much harder to punish.
Also her disadvantage stage is bad because she doesn't get away fast enough from combos, on top of being super floaty which means her airdodge is punishable, especially the directional airdodge. I don't know if better air acceleration could help there but I guess it might.

She still has a very hard time in neutral game because of that: Bad initial aerial mobility and on the ground she has to rely on Phantom. The latter isn't that much of a problem because the move covers a lot of space so getting outcamped isn't that much of a deal imo but thanks to the reliance of Phantom she gets overwhelmed by two characters in particular which are and (both with enormous ground AND air mobility + disjoints).

So yeah, give her better air stuff to work with and a slight weight buff. The former would be really good for her, I think. Maybe make dTilt frame 3, so it has a purpose

 

[Tri Knight]

With tournaments across the globe dwindling into suspensions given the pandemic, now would be the perfect time to discuss some more intricate matchup nuances.

One aspect of certain character's kits that I don't see utilized nor discussed that often are zairs. They're a rarity in this massive cast, but have a rather unique attacking functionality of being a dedicated aerial poke. Across the board, zairs range in shield safety from -2 to -4 on shield (to my knowledge), and obviously feature impressive horizontal reach. For some characters (namely, in my own personal experience, Toon Link and Young Link), zair can even lead to very dangerous tech chase scenarios (maybe confirms as well, if I remember prior discussion correctly?).

Young Link, recently, is becoming a more popular character and has had very notable recent success, so let's use him as an example.

The scenario is as follows: you're hovering around 100%, give or take, and Young Link is in the lead (I believe the exact lead is fairly inconsequential, but feel free to specify if you wish). He's already made the threat of zair known earlier in your match, so you know the possibility of him using it is there. You're also a well-informed player, so you know that nair is a very potent (and fast!) option if you rush in too closely.

When Young Link jumps in neutral in this situation, what is your character's best means of punishing him, knowing that his zair range is a tangible threat?

(this is not implying it's unpunishable, to be clear...rather, I'm just trying to give you as specific of a situation as possible to generate matchup discussion. For all I know, maybe your character has a very easy and obvious answer to this!)

Agreed. Young Link's zair in particular is a very scary tool as well as it combos into kill moves. So its fully viable to use in defensive AND aggressive scenarios. This is huge for a character like Young Link who struggle against long-range swordies that can space him out with quick, wide-angled attacks. Yet not even the best Young Link players are making much use of it yet. Just a matter of players not yet unlocking the max potential of characters.

 

[Rizen]

With tournaments across the globe dwindling into suspensions given the pandemic, now would be the perfect time to discuss some more intricate matchup nuances.

One aspect of certain character's kits that I don't see utilized nor discussed that often are zairs. They're a rarity in this massive cast, but have a rather unique attacking functionality of being a dedicated aerial poke. Across the board, zairs range in shield safety from -2 to -4 on shield (to my knowledge), and obviously feature impressive horizontal reach. For some characters (namely, in my own personal experience, Toon Link and Young Link), zair can even lead to very dangerous tech chase scenarios (maybe confirms as well, if I remember prior discussion correctly?).

Young Link, recently, is becoming a more popular character and has had very notable recent success, so let's use him as an example.

The scenario is as follows: you're hovering around 100%, give or take, and Young Link is in the lead (I believe the exact lead is fairly inconsequential, but feel free to specify if you wish). He's already made the threat of zair known earlier in your match, so you know the possibility of him using it is there. You're also a well-informed player, so you know that nair is a very potent (and fast!) option if you rush in too closely.

When Young Link jumps in neutral in this situation, what is your character's best means of punishing him, knowing that his zair range is a tangible threat?

(this is not implying it's unpunishable, to be clear...rather, I'm just trying to give you as specific of a situation as possible to generate matchup discussion. For all I know, maybe your character has a very easy and obvious answer to this!)

There's not a gif of 's Zair hitboxes here but as far as I know it's a small hitbox only on the very tip. This can make Zair difficult to hit with on smaller opponents. You have to space it at the right distance and already be falling. If it does hit under these circumstances, YL can true combo a DA or Usmash at kill %s.

Dealing with it depends on what character you're playing. Small critters can simply run under it. If you have a fast OoS game you can dash in>shield it and OoS punish. Big characters will have the hardest time getting through; know the spacing and if YL is at the optimal distance for it you should probably wait it out. If YL is rising or too close he can't hit with Zair very well. It only hits directly right or left so you can hit YL from a diagonal angle too.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Since there's really nothing going on, I might post some tier-lists or MU charts I stumble across.

Samsora's 7.0 tierlist

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Unlike the Peach MU chart, this looks fairly reasonable.

Dunno, if someone would consider this player a top-player, but Enki, a French main put out a new Pika MU-chart that looks somewhat similar to ESAM's:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like more theorycrafting is now the thing and that's more than just understandable.

The MU Chart is interesting and there are a few interesting things I want to touch on that I noticed:

• being listed as slight disadvantage actually makes sense. His double jump armor, high jump height, and good air movement makes him hard to Pikachu to edgeguard. Onstage, Yoshi also has good hitboxes, better frame data than Pikachu, is faster than Pikachu, and more consistent kill options than Pikachu, so Yoshi actually has a lot going for him here. I do think that Thunder Jolt can still give him trouble when approaching and he still has trouble in disadvantage if he's already burned his double jump, but I probably would say this MU is at even or -1 for Pikachu.
• Most Pikachu mains seem to agree that is a +1 matchup, so I'm still a little surprised to see Kirby in even here. I feel like Kirby has quite a bit of trouble dealing with Pikachu's Thunder Jolts and good hitboxes, even if he has less trouble hitting or edgeguarding Pikachu compared to most of the cast. Maybe it's even, but I feel like it's probably +1 for Pikachu.
• in +0.5 is really weird. His disadvantage is downright abysmal and his recovery (while not too bad) doesn't make up for his trouble getting off the ledge or getting close enough to the stage to recover. Granted, I think of the super-heavyweights, Dedede still probably has the best MU against Pikachu outside of maybe Bowser since DDD can ledgetrap Pikachu to a degree, has solid range, and can edgeguard somewhat, but it's not this close to even.
• in +1 is also weird to me. I personally agree with Elegant's opinion on this matchup being even. Pikachu screws Luigi over offstage, I'm not going to try to downplay this. However, I think Luigi does quite well in this matchup otherwise. Luigi Cyclone gives Luigi a good landing option against Pikachu's best juggling tool, up-air, his combos on Pikachu's are arguably better than the ones Pikachu has on him, he has better frame data and damage output, he can ledgetrap and edgeguard Pikachu pretty well with a combination of z-air, fireball, d-air, and b-air, and he will live longer onstage than Pikachu. If Luigi has his Smash 4 recovery, I'd say this matchup might actually be -1 for Pikachu, but the lack of a good recovery holds Luigi back from having one of the best matchups against Pikachu. So yeah, I disagree with this one being at +1 for Pikachu.
• I don't have much to say about in this MU, only that Ridley players and Pikachu players don't seem to agree on this one. I personally think that it's not that bad for Ridley (probably +1), but it's incredibly volatile and one mistake from either character can lead to losing a stock.

Now for the Tier List.

• His opinion of doesn't line up with his matchup chart at all. A character with 21 losing matchups (not counting Dark Samus or Simon, making it 23) is in no way that high on the tier list. If he wants to say she loses that many MUs (which I don't believe is true), that's fine but this tier list should reflect that.
• is pretty high up there, but I 100% agree with it. I've thought Sonic was near the higher end of the tier list for a while now, and I'm glad others are starting to realize it.
• at #4 is way too high. I feel like I have kind of a low opinion of Inkling, but I personally feel that she struggles a bit too much to be anywhere higher than the low end of top tier. She struggles to kill so badly against some characters, gets outranged at times, and lacks good OOS options. In a game where most characters have reliable options to kill around 100%, Inkling struggling to kill until 150% against some characters is a huge issue.
• is above . This is another character I have a bit of a low opinion of, but I feel even stronger about this one than I do about Inkling. He's the slowest character in the game, lacks a projectile, gets outranged, gets edgeguarded fairly easily, is combo food, gets juggled fairly easily, and the only answer he has are Darkest Lariat, and Revenge, one of which, is just a big gimmick that goes away if you grab him. He struggles in neutral since he can't approach, and he's oftentimes too slow to capitalize off of a hit if he lands one. This character needs more speed or a projectile to be good IMO, and like Little Mac, has a very dysfunctional design that I don't think works very well in Smash.

Overall, I don't disagree with too much of the tier list. It's mostly reasonable opinions and it's a lot better than Samsora's matchup charts.

 

[ARISTOS]

is above . This is another character I have a bit of a low opinion of, but I feel even stronger about this one than I do about Inkling. He's the slowest character in the game, lacks a projectile, gets outranged, gets edgeguarded fairly easily, is combo food, gets juggled fairly easily, and the only answer he has are Darkest Lariat, and Revenge, one of which, is just a big gimmick that goes away if you grab him. He struggles in neutral since he can't approach, and he's oftentimes too slow to capitalize off of a hit if he lands one. This character needs more speed or a projectile to be good IMO, and like Little Mac, has a very dysfunctional design that I don't think works very well in Smash.

I feel like this is too shallow an interpretation of Incineroar's gameplan.

There are not many characters (without swords) who outrange his hitboxes, and even less who match his range in damage, and relative speed. He shouldn't struggle too much after landing a hit because a lot of his options either chain well (dtilt, dthrow) or send people into disadvantage (utilt, backthrow, side-b, etc) which immediately puts pressure on them if they don't have an easy reset option.

Revenge is a huge deal lol, it negates passive play against the character and turns YOLO options into dangerous commitments because he can now hit your shield with + buttons (very uncommon in this game) and cleave into any lead. Revenge a Mario fireball? Thank you, jab now does 30% percent. Yeah, you can grab, but grabs are a very risky neutral option in this game now, and whiffing while Revenge is up means you eat anywhere from 20% to 50%+ based on the player's reactions.

I don't know if he's better than the characters you listed but the arguments presented IMO don't describe his issues well.

 

[Firox]

I feel like this is too shallow an interpretation of Incineroar's gameplan.

There are not many characters (without swords) who outrange his hitboxes, and even less who match his range in damage, and relative speed. He shouldn't struggle too much after landing a hit because a lot of his options either chain well (dtilt, dthrow) or send people into disadvantage (utilt, backthrow, side-b, etc) which immediately puts pressure on them if they don't have an easy reset option.

Revenge is a huge deal lol, it negates passive play against the character and turns YOLO options into dangerous commitments because he can now hit your shield with + buttons (very uncommon in this game) and cleave into any lead. Revenge a Mario fireball? Thank you, jab now does 30% percent. Yeah, you can grab, but grabs are a very risky neutral option in this game now, and whiffing while Revenge is up means you eat anywhere from 20% to 50%+ based on the player's reactions.

I don't know if he's better than the characters you listed but the arguments presented IMO don't describe his issues well.

I second this. I've played some crazy good Incineroars and people grossly underestimate how damn scary it can be trying to win neutral against him. His aerials have surprisingly good reach, low endlag and decent damage. Think you can spam him to death? Think again. Not only can he farm revenge off the tiniest projectile, but I believe that Revenge can even stack up to three times. At that point, all he has to do is BREATHE on you and that's 50+% damage. Rinse and repeat one more time, that's a stock. Plus he's heavy as all hell. Combined with his recovery, he can be surprisingly hard to kill. If people want to argue whether he's on par with , sure, go ahead. But declaring him downright inferior doesn't really sound fair to me.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I feel like this is too shallow an interpretation of Incineroar's gameplan.

There are not many characters (without swords) who outrange his hitboxes, and even less who match his range in damage, and relative speed. He shouldn't struggle too much after landing a hit because a lot of his options either chain well (dtilt, dthrow) or send people into disadvantage (utilt, backthrow, side-b, etc) which immediately puts pressure on them if they don't have an easy reset option.

Revenge is a huge deal lol, it negates passive play against the character and turns YOLO options into dangerous commitments because he can now hit your shield with + buttons (very uncommon in this game) and cleave into any lead. Revenge a Mario fireball? Thank you, jab now does 30% percent. Yeah, you can grab, but grabs are a very risky neutral option in this game now, and whiffing while Revenge is up means you eat anywhere from 20% to 50%+ based on the player's reactions.

I don't know if he's better than the characters you listed but the arguments presented IMO don't describe his issues well.

I'll try to go more in depth then.

has a lot of issues, but I will say that the character isn't useless. He has some good things about him, that I'll mention first.

• Darkest Lariat is a pretty good get-off-me option. It's not a G&W up-b or anything, but it's pretty solid. It's easy to punish if it misses, but so can other similar moves like Luigi Cyclone so I don't really think that's an issue.
• He does have decent range on some moves and most have very little startup lag.
• His kill power is really solid, even without revenge.
• He has a strong command grab that deals a lot of damage and knockback and moves him closer to the opponent, making it easier to land in some scenarios.
• Revenge allows Incineroar to to kill at ludicrously early percents if stacked and has fast startup meaning that it can be hard for the opponent to predict, forcing them to play around it.
• Has multiple kill throws and has an OK combo throw off of down-throw.
• He gets solid juggles off of up-air.

I don't think this character is useless, it's just hard for him to utilize his gameplan against most of the cast.

His lack of speed means that his approach is pretty lackluster and the most optimal plan is for Incineroar to wait for his opponent to come to him. If they don't have a projectile and have mediocre frame data, this strategy can work, but most characters can either camp and force him to approach, or approach him with a disjointed hitbox or a projectile, forcing him to run away (which he can't do well) or stand his ground and try to land a hit, something he can struggle with depending on how carefully his opponent is spacing their moves.

Revenge is good, but it's kind of gimmicky. If the opponent has a tether grab or a projectile that can make it easier to land a grab, Revenge becomes much easier to work around since Incineroar doesn't really have an answer to ranged grabs or projectiles if the opponent is playing properly since they will have either spaced the grab to be hard to punish, or they will have multiple options covered if they used a projectile to try to land the grab.

Incineroar lacks answers to projectiles in general. His air movement is slow so jumping doesn't always put him in a better situation. Characters like Link and Samus can use their arsenal of projectiles to cover multiple options, leaving Incineroar with limited options that they can punish.

Also, his recovery is pretty bad. It's not too hard to edgeguard as long as his opponent plays around up-b and side-b and it's pretty linear, making it not too hard to predict.

So yes, while Revenge is good and he has a solid advantage state, it's very hard from him to get in advantage, due to his lack of approach options and poor speed. Revenge is also somewhat situational against certain characters, his recovery is linear and not too difficult to edgeguard, and he lacks answers to projectiles. He has some solid get-off-me options, but his OOS options aren't the greatest.

I would kind of compare him to or where his issue isn't not having enough strengths (all three of these characters have solid strengths), it's just that their weaknesses are so severe that they doesn't get a chance to have access to them most of the time. He might not be as bad as either of those characters, but he's not much better either.

 

[$.A.F.]

I'll try to go more in depth then.

has a lot of issues, but I will say that the character isn't useless. He has some good things about him, that I'll mention first.

• Darkest Lariat is a pretty good get-off-me option. It's not a G&W up-b or anything, but it's pretty solid. It's easy to punish if it misses, but so can other similar moves like Luigi Cyclone so I don't really think that's an issue.
• He does have decent range on some moves and most have very little startup lag.
• His kill power is really solid, even without revenge.
• He has a strong command grab that deals a lot of damage and knockback and moves him closer to the opponent, making it easier to land in some scenarios.
• Revenge allows Incineroar to to kill at ludicrously early percents if stacked and has fast startup meaning that it can be hard for the opponent to predict, forcing them to play around it.
• Has multiple kill throws and has an OK combo throw off of down-throw.
• He gets solid juggles off of up-air.

I don't think this character is useless, it's just hard for him to utilize his gameplan against most of the cast.

His lack of speed means that his approach is pretty lackluster and the most optimal plan is for Incineroar to wait for his opponent to come to him. If they don't have a projectile and have mediocre frame data, this strategy can work, but most characters can either camp and force him to approach, or approach him with a disjointed hitbox or a projectile, forcing him to run away (which he can't do well) or stand his ground and try to land a hit, something he can struggle with depending on how carefully his opponent is spacing their moves.

Revenge is good, but it's kind of gimmicky. If the opponent has a tether grab or a projectile that can make it easier to land a grab, Revenge becomes much easier to work around since Incineroar doesn't really have an answer to ranged grabs or projectiles if the opponent is playing properly since they will have either spaced the grab to be hard to punish, or they will have multiple options covered if they used a projectile to try to land the grab.

Incineroar lacks answers to projectiles in general. His air movement is slow so jumping doesn't always put him in a better situation. Characters like Link and Samus can use their arsenal of projectiles to cover multiple options, leaving Incineroar with limited options that they can punish.

Also, his recovery is pretty bad. It's not too hard to edgeguard as long as his opponent plays around up-b and side-b and it's pretty linear, making it not too hard to predict.

So yes, while Revenge is good and he has a solid advantage state, it's very hard from him to get in advantage, due to his lack of approach options and poor speed. Revenge is also somewhat situational against certain characters, his recovery is linear and not too difficult to edgeguard, and he lacks answers to projectiles. He has some solid get-off-me options, but his OOS options aren't the greatest.

I would kind of compare him to or where his issue isn't not having enough strengths (all three of these characters have solid strengths), it's just that their weaknesses are so severe that they doesn't get a chance to have access to them most of the time. He might not be as bad as either of those characters, but he's not much better either.

Personally I don’t think his recovery is holding him back that much. It’s mediocre at best yeah, and has a lot of issues, but ‘s got enough variation and as well, poses a large enough threat to the opponent that you have to think very hard about whether it’s worth the risk to challenge it. As well, characters with arguably worse recoveries like Chrom, Brawlimar, Sm4sh Cloud, etc. have been top tiers. It’s more about whether the character has the strengths to overcome it. And in the case of as you said, boy does he have strengths. A top 5 d-tilt in the entire game, a pretty good combo game, great aerials, a great command grab, ungodly throws, invincibility out the wazoo, and he never dies. So then why is he so bad? Well honestly I really do think he’s a one issue character. Speed. It’s a weakness yes, but on this specific character with this specific moveset, it drops him to bottom tier. If this character had the movement stats of or , he legitimately would be borderline top tier in my opinion But this one issue is arguably the sole reason why he’ll never move above bottom tier no matter how much his moves are buffed. I mean for goodness sake, what part of his moveset isn’t absolutely boned by his speed. Remember that frame 5 get off me till he has that dies great shield damage can be comboed into and kills? Or that counter camping down special that makes him into a one touch death machine? Or those throws that literally are contenders for the best set in the entire game? These all legitimately become fundamentally useless due to the fact that Ultimate characters can camp. Can’t do 75 in one hit if you can’t get a hit. Don’t have a good OoS when no one needs to approach you. Don’t have great throws when your opponent can time you out. Don’t have a good grappler when you’re slow in a smash game with no projectile.

EDIT: And I really wanna talk about a character that I think is criminally underrated in . Goddamn this character is busted. I acknowledge the character has flaws. They struggle to kill past certain confirm windows, and entire chunks of normals/aerials can become either useless or amazing depending on the moveset. But holy crap, their strengths are crazy.

Let’s look at specials first. Shot put is THE viable one. It’s basically a poor man’s Ptooie. But even being a third as good as that move makes for a great projectile. It hits like a truck, kills fairly early, and edgeguards really well. Overall pretty good. Then there’s suplex. The suplex is a 22% command grab that’s frame 13. And honestly, that’s all that needs to be said. Or you can trade it for burning drop kick a safe on shield kill move that’s a recovery that also doesn’t put you into free fall. Again that’s all that needs to be said. Either is good. Then there’s down special. Feint jump. This move is frame 1, INVINCIBLE FRAMES 2-4, and as well KILLS. The killing kick is frame 8 as well. This move is dumb.

And finally, we have up specials. Every single one is broken, dumb, and can kill below 70.

Let’s start with the infamous helicopter kick. This move is frame 8, with intangible legs for 37 FRAMES that can be comboed into (d tilt/throw) into at 60-90 for a kill and at 40 if you suicide it at the edge. As well you can di mixup as whatever direction you hold changes how you DI it.

Then there’s pre-patch Chrom up b. AKA soaring axe kick. It’s literally the exact same except for a 9% damage decrease. It even still kills the opponent first. And it can be comboed into.

And finally thrust uppercut. I don’t need to go into any detail other than a list of some attributes. A FRAME 3 OoS option that kills grounded at 140, is a combo ended and with any platform can hoo-ha at 70 on middleweights.

And then of course there’s his 40+% combos, great speed, busted nair, long reaching dash attack and kill confirms into f smash as low as 40 with rage and the fact that he can dress up as Guy Fieri to overall make a character that’s solidly in mid tier and could very reasonably move far higher in the future.

 

[BitBitio]

The MU Chart is interesting and there are a few interesting things I want to touch on that I noticed:

• being listed as slight disadvantage actually makes sense. His double jump armor, high jump height, and good air movement makes him hard to Pikachu to edgeguard. Onstage, Yoshi also has good hitboxes, better frame data than Pikachu, is faster than Pikachu, and more consistent kill options than Pikachu, so Yoshi actually has a lot going for him here. I do think that Thunder Jolt can still give him trouble when approaching and he still has trouble in disadvantage if he's already burned his double jump, but I probably would say this MU is at even or -1 for Pikachu.
• Most Pikachu mains seem to agree that is a +1 matchup, so I'm still a little surprised to see Kirby in even here. I feel like Kirby has quite a bit of trouble dealing with Pikachu's Thunder Jolts and good hitboxes, even if he has less trouble hitting or edgeguarding Pikachu compared to most of the cast. Maybe it's even, but I feel like it's probably +1 for Pikachu.
• in +0.5 is really weird. His disadvantage is downright abysmal and his recovery (while not too bad) doesn't make up for his trouble getting off the ledge or getting close enough to the stage to recover. Granted, I think of the super-heavyweights, Dedede still probably has the best MU against Pikachu outside of maybe Bowser since DDD can ledgetrap Pikachu to a degree, has solid range, and can edgeguard somewhat, but it's not this close to even.
• in +1 is also weird to me. I personally agree with Elegant's opinion on this matchup being even. Pikachu screws Luigi over offstage, I'm not going to try to downplay this. However, I think Luigi does quite well in this matchup otherwise. Luigi Cyclone gives Luigi a good landing option against Pikachu's best juggling tool, up-air, his combos on Pikachu's are arguably better than the ones Pikachu has on him, he has better frame data and damage output, he can ledgetrap and edgeguard Pikachu pretty well with a combination of z-air, fireball, d-air, and b-air, and he will live longer onstage than Pikachu. If Luigi has his Smash 4 recovery, I'd say this matchup might actually be -1 for Pikachu, but the lack of a good recovery holds Luigi back from having one of the best matchups against Pikachu. So yeah, I disagree with this one being at +1 for Pikachu.
• I don't have much to say about in this MU, only that Ridley players and Pikachu players don't seem to agree on this one. I personally think that it's not that bad for Ridley (probably +1), but it's incredibly volatile and one mistake from either character can lead to losing a stock.

Now for the Tier List.

• His opinion of doesn't line up with his matchup chart at all. A character with 21 losing matchups (not counting Dark Samus or Simon, making it 23) is in no way that high on the tier list. If he wants to say she loses that many MUs (which I don't believe is true), that's fine but this tier list should reflect that.
• is pretty high up there, but I 100% agree with it. I've thought Sonic was near the higher end of the tier list for a while now, and I'm glad others are starting to realize it.
• at #4 is way too high. I feel like I have kind of a low opinion of Inkling, but I personally feel that she struggles a bit too much to be anywhere higher than the low end of top tier. She struggles to kill so badly against some characters, gets outranged at times, and lacks good OOS options. In a game where most characters have reliable options to kill around 100%, Inkling struggling to kill until 150% against some characters is a huge issue.
• is above . This is another character I have a bit of a low opinion of, but I feel even stronger about this one than I do about Inkling. He's the slowest character in the game, lacks a projectile, gets outranged, gets edgeguarded fairly easily, is combo food, gets juggled fairly easily, and the only answer he has are Darkest Lariat, and Revenge, one of which, is just a big gimmick that goes away if you grab him. He struggles in neutral since he can't approach, and he's oftentimes too slow to capitalize off of a hit if he lands one. This character needs more speed or a projectile to be good IMO, and like Little Mac, has a very dysfunctional design that I don't think works very well in Smash.

Overall, I don't disagree with too much of the tier list. It's mostly reasonable opinions and it's a lot better than Samsora's matchup charts.

Apparently Samsora said that 4-10 on his list are interchangeable.

I second this. I've played some crazy good Incineroars and people grossly underestimate how damn scary it can be trying to win neutral against him. His aerials have surprisingly good reach, low endlag and decent damage. Think you can spam him to death? Think again. Not only can he farm revenge off the tiniest projectile, but I believe that Revenge can even stack up to three times. At that point, all he has to do is BREATHE on you and that's 50+% damage. Rinse and repeat one more time, that's a stock. Plus he's heavy as all hell. Combined with his recovery, he can be surprisingly hard to kill. If people want to argue whether he's on par with , sure, go ahead. But declaring him downright inferior doesn't really sound fair to me.

can stack Revenge 5 times actually.

IMO, Incineroar doesn't need to be fast to be good. We've had slower characters as top or high tiers in the past, such as and I find that those characters all have strong advantage states to compensate. Incineroar has a similarly strong advantage state, having a massive damage output, and the occasional capability to take stocks just by landing one or two good conversions. I think that to balance Incineroar properly, he needs slightly faster CQC/get off me options, so maybe make jab and nair faster, a slightly better recovery, so increase his air acceleration a bit and make side-b and up-b have more distance/drift, and he needs to have a better neutral/approach. Obviously the three key things to have in neutral are framedata, mobility, and range, but we can't go buffing his mobility too much so we need to improve his other areas to compensate. His range and framedata are pretty ok, but I think a 10%ish hitbox size increase to some moves and shaving a frame or two off of the startup for several moves, in addition to cutting down his endlag a bit for a few moves would do wonders for him. The faster air acceleration, slightly better startup, cooldown, and range, and improved CQC options now gives him a pretty well-rounded and safe neutral in addition to letting him take his advantage state a little farther when he has it. The noticeably longer recovery and better get off me's would really help out his disadvantage state as well. This is what I think he needs to be mid to high tier, depending on how every other character is changed as time goes on.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Since there's really nothing going on, I might post some tier-lists or MU charts I stumble across.

Samsora's 7.0 tierlist

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Unlike the Peach MU chart, this looks fairly reasonable.

Definitely a solid list, but I do have a few gripes.

I am still pessimistic on people putting Pikachu top 5, even top 10, when there are far more characters in the game that proven to be higher. He is definitely top 15, and maybe top 10, but the second-best character? Still having some flashbacks to when Pikachu was placed as 5th in SSB4's first official tier list for the pure purpose of theorycraft.
being placed that high seems very out-of-place. Undeniably a great character, but the 4th best character?
being placed an entire tier higher than .
being placed very high. It is interesting to see opinions on Diddy increase lately, but I think people are kind of jumping the gun on placing him that high in the list, especially when most of the characters in his "Low-High Tier" has obtained consistently higher results throughout the entirety of the Ultimate's lifespan.
being placed that high is what bothers me probably the most. This is not a Samsora-only opinion that Hero is that high, but the character's results ever since after the first few weeks of the character's release has been very stagnate outside of Salem (who uses other characters as well). I think most people are placing Hero that high simply for the "oh, randomness and dumb spells" factor without actually looking on how he performs in a serious match.
being also ranked that high. This is also not a Samsora-only opinion. The only player actually doing legitimately well with the character is Big D, and even then his placement in PGR'ed events lately has been rather inconsistent (or infrequent). Probably another example of a character being ranked high due to purely theorycraft.
being ranked that high in Samsora's eyes doesn't really surprise me considering that he occasionally plays the character, but still...
being ranked an entire tier below when the two are probably around the same viability in the current moment.


Sorry if what I said above sounds nitpicky (I could go on for minor character spot shifting), but those are some things I want to get off my chest.
Again, solid list overall.

 

[Arthur97]

Roy being a whole tier higher than Chrom may be ludicrous, but given how the community likes their explosive fighters and the general perception of Chrom vs. Roy, it may just be a fact that people may start undervaluing him. Some have apparently already decided that Roy is definitively better.

 

[The_Bookworm]

OrionStats have updated once again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

Not too many notable tier changes, at least in comparison to previous entries, but still notable.

has now exceeded the 300 point mark, now having 308 points and almost 30 points more than the current 2nd placer .
has fallen to 11th place, his lowest placement so far, pushing to the top 10 position. Trainer's metagame has been in the rather stagnate side lately, so this drop makes sense.
has once again exceeded for the 12th spot, and is only .5 points lower than .
has notably rose to 21st this weekend. Definitely enjoying his more consistent results lately.
has risen a few spots higher to 27th, likely thanks to Gackt's nice performance at CEO Dreamland.
, once close to top 20, is now currently at 28th place. Still in a solid position, but his results in PGR'ed tournaments hasn't quite as peaked as earlier in the season.
has fallen down a little bit lately, now being ranked at 35th. T not being the most consistent tournament attendee is definitely a big cause of this.
has curiously risen up lately, now being ranked 39th and above . This has also caused to fall out of the top 40 to be ranked at 41st (tied with Ike).
has risen up the list this weekend, now being ranked 43rd, two spots (and 4 points) above . This is first time in a long time (since near the beginning of the game) that Zelda exceeds Sheik in the rankings.
has gained some ground this weekend, now being ranked 48th, one placement above and below .
has also gained some ground, now being ranked 58th (tied with and ). This also pushes out of the top 60 spot to be ranked at 61st.
not sure if this was the case last weekend, but Pit seems to be higher than earlier this season, currently being ranked 66th and only .5 points below .

Outside of this, nothing much has changed. The same point counter issue that had last weekend is still present this weekend, having 13.5 points but being placed above and despite having higher points than her.


DLC Rankings (3/18/20):
(5th) > (40th) > (47th) > (49th) > (54th) > (71st)

Spoiler: Previous Rankings

3/10/20
(5th) > (39th) > (45th) > (48th) > (54th) > (71st)

3/4/20
(4th) > (39th) > (44th) > (51st) > (53rd) > (71st)

2/26/20
(4th) > (40th) > (43rd) > (49th) > (54th) > (71st)

2/18/20
(5th) > (41st) > (50th) > (52nd) > (58th) > (70th)

2/13/20 (First 7.0 list)
(5th) > (41st) > (52nd) > (54th) > (56th) > (68th)

 

[blackghost]

Apparently Samsora said that 4-10 on his list are interchangeable.



can stack Revenge 5 times actually.

IMO, Incineroar doesn't need to be fast to be good. We've had slower characters as top or high tiers in the past, such as .

comparison doesnt really work. idk about 64 kirby but all of those characters had a gameplay trait or mobility option that circumvented being slow.
ice climbers and deedee bhoth take a stock from one grab. doesnt matter how slow a character is playing for one thing to win and it works bypasses being slow.
smash 4 bayo had burst mobility at angle most character couldnt handle even if she was slow on the ground and air
snake in brawl esentially could be in 3 places at once (down smash, c4, and himself plus uptilt thrreat range)
olimar is a character of crazy high damage without needing to fully catch his opponent
corrin had burst mobility. with low recovery in 4.
in 5 games of smash the high tiers and above almost always have good mobility or speed. its still a platform fighter good character abuse that.

 

[Impax]

Definitely a solid list, but I do have a few gripes.

I am still pessimistic on people putting Pikachu top 5, even top 10, when there are far more characters in the game that proven to be higher. He is definitely top 15, and maybe top 10, but the second-best character? Still having some flashbacks to when Pikachu was placed as 5th in SSB4's first official tier list for the pure purpose of theorycraft.
being placed that high seems very out-of-place. Undeniably a great character, but the 4th best character?
being placed an entire tier higher than .
being placed very high. It is interesting to see opinions on Diddy increase lately, but I think people are kind of jumping the gun on placing him that high in the list, especially when most of the characters in his "Low-High Tier" has obtained consistently higher results throughout the entirety of the Ultimate's lifespan.
being placed that high is what bothers me probably the most. This is not a Samsora-only opinion that Hero is that high, but the character's results ever since after the first few weeks of the character's release has been very stagnate outside of Salem (who uses other characters as well). I think most people are placing Hero that high simply for the "oh, randomness and dumb spells" factor without actually looking on how he performs in a serious match.
being also ranked that high. This is also not a Samsora-only opinion. The only player actually doing legitimately well with the character is Big D, and even then his placement in PGR'ed events lately has been rather inconsistent (or infrequent). Probably another example of a character being ranked high due to purely theorycraft.
being ranked that high in Samsora's eyes doesn't really surprise me considering that he occasionally plays the character, but still...
being ranked an entire tier below when the two are probably around the same viability in the current moment.


Sorry if what I said above sounds nitpicky (I could go on for minor character spot shifting), but those are some things I want to get off my chest.
Again, solid list overall.

Japan has a few really good icies that have decent results

 

[Lacrimosa]

I wonder where the Zelda points come from.
I know Sam used her as a secondary at Dreamland but only the earlier parts of brackets.

 

[Megamang]

Paraphrasing M2K here, but Incineroar's problem is partly that he feels stronger than he really is. He has massive base knockback, which sends you away and gives you the impression 'oof that will kill me if im not careful'.

Then you aren't careful.... and you barely survive. And he can't really meaningfully go offstage and finish you off very well, compared to top threats. Ledgetrapping is kind of scary but tons of characters fall into that niche and a lot of the top tiers can bypass it fairly effectively, considering it is supposed to be disadvantage.


I get why they did it, it feels pretty luchador-y, but... the base knockback being higher isn't really great for smash. At low percentages it makes your followups a little less, and at high percentages you aren't getting the kills you need. I mean he still kills pretty well, but compare it to other killing moves and the numbers aren't THAT good, for a character that is supposed to make you tremble in fear.

But, we can be kinda thankful for that. Revenge + High BKB + High KBG would be insane. But when he is dealing with other insane stuff like double top throws, pika grabs doing 70%, getting through to ZSS... it falls a bit short. Maybe if his command grab was a legit burst option it would make the whole thing more terrifying. I'm not saying its bad, but compared to say Crack Shoot it doesn't really burst into their zone so quick, its mostly for calling out whiffs or shields when they are already in your range.


Revenge is busted, but it does have the busted counter issue... Getting called out sucks. I do think there is room to use it reactively, IIRC it is the fastest activating counter (maybe not with Joker Arsene counter but its up there). and Revenge takes his options to the next level. I don't think projectile camping him works near the clutch parts of the game so much, you end up with a S4 Ryu situation where they are just trying to corner you once and all that damage you did is working against you. But early in the game it sets the pace so well it can be tough.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think it would be best to rely less on using OrionStats a major reference point to how the current meta looks from this point forward, at least until the situation regarding the coronavirus cools down a bit.

There has already been several factors that have prevented it from being the end-all-be-all of defining a character's position, but something that is big enough to cause more than a good chunk of players to stop competing for the time being is hard to ignore.