Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[KirbySquad101]

Outside of his 49th placement at EVO (which isn't even bad), Gackt has been a consistently strong performer this season, Top 24-ing every Umebura A Tier event he went to (and placing Top 8 at Umebura SP4), and then placing 13th at Kongo Saga on top of that; based off of his performance alone, I'd think is at the very least, the bottom of high tier.

In other news, Keitaro dropped his 6.10 tier list. For those who don't know, he's a commentator/competitive player who is most well known for frequently appearing on Nario's streams. While there does not appear to be an image, I'll list his tier list here. It's also ordered.

S Tier:,,,,,,,,,

A Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

B Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

C Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

D Tier:,,,,,,

As you can tell, this is different from the average tier list. Personally I like it because I always enjoy looking from different viewpoints.
Even if Falcon being better than Bowser and Puff being second worst is hot garbage.

There is some definite WTF placements here (particularly and ), but honestly, this list is a breath of fresh air for me, particularly the and placements.

I still do think that Link has the best potential of the 3 though. Not to mention T's placement IS the absolute best placement of any of the Links thus far if I'm not mistaken.

The number isn't quite as great, but Ri-ma comes really close with his 7th placement at Umebura Japan Major. It's a shame he mostly uses nowadays though, and I'm honestly curious as to why that is, seeing as how Sigma's still doing fairly well with the character.

I noticed has the most representation, but his overall placements are the weakest of the 3, though he has own share of really solid performances, like Mr. R's 9th placement at SwitchFest, and Supahsemmie's 9th placement at Albion 4.

 

[Tri Knight]

The number isn't quite as great, but Ri-ma comes really close with his 7th placement at Umebura Japan Major. It's a shame he mostly uses nowadays though, and I'm honestly curious as to why that is, seeing as how Sigma's still doing fairly well with the character.

I noticed has the most representation, but his overall placements are the weakest of the 3, though he has own share of really solid performances, like Mr. R's 9th placement at SwitchFest, and Supahsemmie's 9th placement at Albion 4.

You would think we'd see more come out of Young Link. On paper, he seems like the absolute best of the Links... even way back when, my first impressions of him were much better than the other two Links.

Maybe his representation just has never been quite good enough. I mean T makes Link look pretty godly and most think Link is worse than Young Link.

 

[TennisBall]

You would think we'd see more come out of Young Link. On paper, he seems like the absolute best of the Links... even way back when, my first impressions of him were much better than the other two Links.

Maybe his representation just has never been quite good enough. I mean T makes Link look pretty godly and most think Link is worse than Young Link.

The most scary part about T's Link is that he doesn't even use Bomb all that much. He's this good with abusing one of Link's potentially best tools.

 

[Nebunera]

Anyone else feel like could be top 10?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Anyone else feel like could be top 10?

Maybe, but the competition for top 10 is very high, and I think other characters are probably in more deserving of it right now.

Top 20 for sure though.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Maybe, but the competition for top 10 is very high, and I think other characters are probably in more deserving of it right now.

Top 20 for sure though.

Id say there top 15 at least. Like at the top of high-tier but just..not..quite at the top.

The top 10 ..in absoutley no order



All of my posts and opinons suck..lol

 

[Rizen]

Link stuff:
Technically is still the best Link on Orion stats. In terms of solo-placements T's performance with at Kongo Saga was the best but he did the same thing with at Civil War. As a secondary Tweek's scored higher with YL at bigger tournaments in season 1.

Anyone else feel like could be top 10?

Absolutely. If you combined Roy and Chrom's scores on Orion Stats they're 5th best. I do think they're different enough to be ranked separately but still very similar and that the player base is divided between them. Theoretically if Chrom didn't exist most of his players would be using Roy.

 

[BitBitio]

As far as echo fighters go, who do you all think is the better of each pair of echoes/full clones, and why? (Let's leave out of this.)
IMO:
vs : (better recovery, mobility, combos, neutral, advantage, disadvantage, and edgeguarding)
vs : (faster back roll, up smash hits low-profiling opponents slightly better, launches Charge Shot from a very slightly lower position)
vs : (better combos, Quick Attack, superior range, better survivability without gaining susceptibility to combos)
vs : (no real difference, literally only preference)
vs : (better combos and zoning)
vs : (more consistency in combos and KOs)
vs : (better KO power and combos, better horizontal recovery, harder to exploit up-b)
vs : (better gimps, juggles, pokes, and edgeguards with arrows, more consistent KOs with side-b)
vs : (better KO setups and damage output, though he does lose out on Shanetsu Hadoken)
vs : (like Peach, no real difference, Holy Water is negligible-it ledgetraps just the same either way, and that's all it's used for)

 

[Rizen]

As far as echo fighters go, who do you all think is the better of each pair of echoes/full clones, and why? (Let's leave out of this.)
IMO:
vs : (better recovery, mobility, combos, neutral, advantage, disadvantage, and edgeguarding)
vs : (faster back roll, up smash hits low-profiling opponents slightly better, launches Charge Shot from a very slightly lower position)
vs : (better combos, Quick Attack, superior range, better survivability without gaining susceptibility to combos)
vs : (no real difference, literally only preference)
vs : (better combos and zoning)
vs : (more consistency in combos and KOs)
vs : (better KO power and combos, better horizontal recovery, harder to exploit up-b)
vs : (better gimps, juggles, pokes, and edgeguards with arrows, more consistent KOs with side-b)
vs : (better KO setups and damage output, though he does lose out on Shanetsu Hadoken)
vs : (like Peach, no real difference, Holy Water is negligible-it ledgetraps just the same either way, and that's all it's used for)

I'm going to be an iconoclast and say 's still slightly better than . Why? Pichu's attacks hit upward so he vortexes better than Pika, his thunder always hits they way Pichu's facing so it's a much better kill option than Pika's which launches backwards if you're behind him, Pichu has stronger kill options. Pichu's agility (upB) not having a hitbox isn't a pure downgrade of Pika's; it allows him to gimp and not save the opponent when returning to the stage. Pichu's aerial thunder jolt deals 12% and Pika's only deals 5.7% Pichu has better current results on Orion Stats and that's after taking a huge popularity hit from the nerfs.

 

[|RK|]

I'm going to be an iconoclast and say 's still better than . Why? Pichu's attacks hit upward so he vortexes better than Pika, his thunder always hits they way Pichu's facing so it's a much better kill option than Pika's which launches backwards if you're behind him, Pichu has stronger kill options. Pichu's agility (upB) not having a hitbox isn't a pure downgrade of Pika's; it allows him to gimp and not save the opponent when returning to the stage. Pichu has better current results on Orion Stats and that's after taking a huge popularity hit from the nerfs.

Pichu's bair can be SDI'd, making it a less consistent option

Thunder is good, but also one move

Agility has no hitbox and is easy to 2frame - and Pika has so many angles to not save the opponent

Pichu is forced to approach more often due to self-damage, and is also the lightest character in the game

And OrionStats is a decent guide, but we're looking purely at top level. I feel many chars in this game can disappear for a bit and then do well due to people forgetting counterplay. For example, SDI and camping vs Pichu.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I'm going to be an iconoclast and say 's still better than . Why? Pichu's attacks hit upward so he vortexes better than Pika, his thunder always hits they way Pichu's facing so it's a much better kill option than Pika's which launches backwards if you're behind him, Pichu has stronger kill options. Pichu's agility (upB) not having a hitbox isn't a pure downgrade of Pika's; it allows him to gimp and not save the opponent when returning to the stage. Pichu has better current results on Orion Stats and that's after taking a huge popularity hit from the nerfs.

Even after the nerfs. Pichu is still funadmentally easier to play than its evolved form. Regardless of which is better. Actullay thier whole combo game plays somewhat differently, which may partly be why Notable Pichu mains have stuck with him aftet 3.1.0 instead of flocking to Pikachu
It still has pretty good MU's vs Top tiers like .

It says something that even MKLeo still wont use Joker vs Pichu

 

[Rizen]

Pichu's bair can be SDI'd, making it a less consistent option

Thunder is good, but also one move

Agility has no hitbox and is easy to 2frame - and Pika has so many angles to not save the opponent

Pichu is forced to approach more often due to self-damage, and is also the lightest character in the game

And OrionStats is a decent guide, but we're looking purely at top level. I feel many chars in this game can disappear for a bit and then do well due to people forgetting counterplay. For example, SDI and camping vs Pichu.

Pika's attacks can be SDIed too.

Thunder is very good.

Not always.

Pichu's aerial thunder jolt deals 12% and Pika's only deals 5.7%. Pichu can't be spammy with it but a smart Pichu will come out ahead. Saying Pichu's lighter than Pika is like saying Chrom's recovery is worse than Roy's. Yeah it's true but it's not like Pika is a very heavy character either.

As if Pichu players like RedFang and Void aren't playing at top level. Saying people "forgot the MU" is a lame excuse.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Super Ascension Results (279 entrants):

1. Prodigy
2. Stroder |
3. Big D
4. Goblin
5. Pandarian
5. MuteAce
7. BestNess
7. Silver
9. JumboJack
9. B-Rice
9. Asotil
9. PiXL
13. JeAI8a
13. Loaf
13. SilentRain
13. Rose Arts
17. VaLoR
17. FroZn
17. Lumbre
17. SS
17. Ronald
17. CRUP!!
17. Abaasy
17. Arconi
And with that, Season 2 comes to a close with winning his second C-Tier event, courtesy of Prodigy this time. It was good to see him end his season on a high note after his below average performance at Kongo Saga.

Link stuff:
Technically is still the best Link on Orion stats. In terms of solo-placements T's performance with at Kongo Saga was the best but he did the same thing with at Civil War. As a secondary Tweek's scored higher with YL at bigger tournaments in season 1.

That much is true; Link did come very close to closing the gap between the two near the end though, only 6.5 points behind (compared to the 20~30 point deficit he had in the beginning of Season 2); that does make me cautiously optimistic as to where Link's heading next season. If anything, he'll always have T carrying him, so there's that lol.

 

[MushroomKiller]

Ordinarily I'm just a lurker, but the topic of 's position on the tier list is like a fat juicy worm being dangled in front of me. I'll bite.

Let's look at 's notable players:

-FOW, once the undisputed champion of his main, no longer travels. This deprives him of key match-up experiences that chomps down on his butt HARD and drags him down to the 65th ~ 33rd positions on the rare occasions he does venture out of Vegas.

-Awestin is in the same boat. I'd also like to mention that not travelling means you also don't get the top player experience you get from fighting more formidable challenges, further stymieing bracket progress.

-Gackt, as KirbySquad101 mentioned, actually does do well in the Umeburas he attends. One more peculiar thing about Gackt is that he doesn't tend to do so hot in the American tournaments, which further exacerbates the "Ness has no results" notion. Could be jetlag, could be discomfort, could be whatever, but hopefully his recent performance at Kongo saga is a turning point.

-Bestness is who I want to deliberate on most. The most prolific (at least in terms of attendances) Ness main SHOULD be amassing valuable MU and top-player experience... yet he struggles to place higher than 25th in most tournaments. Watching the sets where he and the opponent bring it down to the wire, it's easy to see why: Bestness has notoriously poor mental fortitude, something which he admitted himself, and when your sets are Bo5 you'd better channel the mental (and physical, of course) stamina of a starving snow leopard. It's kind of painful to watch Bestness on his loser run, last game last stock, only to start losing his head completely and commit a bevy of mistakes that ultimately cost him any prestige.

Having said all this, I don't think Ness is some sleeper top tier or anything. I agree with the general consensus that Ness is at the bottom of high tier. Nothing more, nothing less.

Since I'm here I may as well drop a few replies:

Ness has done absolutely nothing to warrant being in A-tier

The character's performance at high level play is mediocre at best

Were you high when you wrote this? An example of a "mediocre at best" performance would be , not Ness. Almost always constantly hovering around 33rd position when his best representative, Suarez, steps forth into the ring.

So when it comes to tier list, I find this video very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suQ0kohHg9E

Ness probably has losing matchups to characters like Lucina, Ness, Palutena, and Zero Suit Samus, and Roy and Chrom and Greninja and Joker and Mr. Game & Watch, possibly other characters as well. Pikachu loses to Ness, Mr. Game & Watch and Peach, while probably having winning matchups against Palutena, Fox, Wolf, Joker, possibly Lucina as well. If we value Weighted Matchups, Matchups, and Theorycrafting higher than Results (as we should, as explained in the video) then it's very reasonable to place Pikachu much higher than Ness.

Your constant cherrypicking and exaggeration of Ness's MU reminds me of a prolific hater way back in the day, lol. is definitely not a losing MU, Gackt has gone through a gauntlet of Jokers at some Korean tournament whose name currently escapes me, even forcing a switch from MKLeo to (btw, if MK Leo wields his secondary for one of your characters then you know the MU is even at best for Joker). Speaking of , FOW has taken a set off of Mr. R while he was using Chrom. The MU is still losing because swordslol, but it's not nearly as bad as you're claiming it to be (as another user mentioned they blow each other up off-stage).

I would have been inclined to agree that might have been a -2 in the past, but Gackt's win against Kome is making me re-evaluate the MU. Gackt employed a much more defensive, patient playstyle against Kome, dashing back and capitalizing on mistakes instead of rushing in like the aggressive Nesses (i.e. all of the them) do. No doubt this defensive playstyle could alleviate other MUs, notably , who wants you to come to him nearly always. Also lol at including the ditto as a losing MU in an attempt to beef up the amount of characters that he loses to.

Btw, when listing 's good MUs, why not list 's to be impartial? Ness may not beat as many top/high tiers compared to Pikachu (because unlike the rat he's not a top tier), but he wins against ,,and imho , and goes even against many of the relevant threats too: ,,,,...

 

[Minordeth]

As far as echo fighters go, who do you all think is the better of each pair of echoes/full clones, and why? (Let's leave out of this.)
IMO:
vs : (better recovery, mobility, combos, neutral, advantage, disadvantage, and edgeguarding)
vs : (faster back roll, up smash hits low-profiling opponents slightly better, launches Charge Shot from a very slightly lower position)

Dark Samus has a bigger hurtbox, and doesn’t shrink her hurtbox when she double jumps. Her Upsmash may initially connect better, but it drops opponents more. Her charge shot can hit opponents on the ledge, but Samus’ Fsmash has better range.

Due to the hurtbox difference alone, I’d give the edge to Samus in most MUs, although it doesn’t matter too much realistically.

vs : (better combos and zoning)

TL outzones YL, and kills more effectively. YL does have better damage wracking capability, though. Watching Sigma and Lv. 1 beat some excellent players and characters has me leaning toward TL at the moment, but there isn’t a YL equivalent of Sigma/Lv. 1 or even Xcal.

Finally, TL and YL are not echos or clones of each other.

vs : (more consistency in combos and KOs)

vs : (better KO power and combos, better horizontal recovery, harder to exploit up-b)

On the flip side, Roy has less consistency in combos and KOs than Chrom, yet Lucina gets the edge and Chrom doesn’t.

What Roy’s gain in horizontal distance means practically is vastly overrated.

 

[|RK|]

Pika's attacks can be SDIed too.

Thunder is very good.

Not always.

Pichu's aerial thunder jolt deals 12% and Pika's only deals 5.7%. Pichu can't be spammy with it but a smart Pichu will come out ahead. Saying Pichu's lighter than Pika is like saying Chrom's recovery is worse than Roy's. Yeah it's true but it's not like Pika is a very heavy character either.

As if Pichu players like RedFang and Void aren't playing at top level. Saying people "forgot the MU" is a lame excuse.

Pichu's bair is easier to SDI and lightning loops are less consistent than Nair loops because of it. I mean you can SDI OUT of Pichu's stuff, not just make it harder (Pikachu).

Thunder is good. Still one move.

Agility can be consistently stuffed by certain chars. See the famous gyro edgeguard.

The whole point of camping with a projectile is not the guarantee that it will hit. And aerial tjolt usually happens on an approach since the rats want to full hop it and landing confirm it.

Pichu is the lightest character in the game bar none. The weight difference between Pikachu and Pichu is the same as Pikachu and Wii Fit Trainer (who is heavier than Joker, Chrom, Wolf, Palu, etc.).

And RFang and VoiD are playing at top level. So the fact that VoiD is playing multiple chars while ESAM is solo-maining and getting stronger results than either at the tournaments they all attend says a little bit.

Players like Dabuz can just play the same counterplay as previous and wall Pichu players out (see his dominant performance vs RFang at Tristate Showdown) while still able to lose to ESAM's Pika, agreeing that the char is broken slightly after.

Consistency + cheese is ideal for many of the good chars in this game. Pichu's light weight and self-damage rob her of that.

VoiD himself said a while back that he was tired of being circle camped. I'd consider him a smart Pichu. But as always, based on the top players who play her plus my own analysis, Pichu is certainly not better than Pikachu. But when Pichu dominates an opponent, it will certainly look like it.

Not to mention Pikachu's MU spread is flat out better.

EDIT:

Learning two new characters to use along with pichu. Gonna make sure to ACTUALLY put time into these characters unlike my rob and palu and young link. Really think i can get a really high rank next season focusing a bit more on counterpicking

— Randy Fang (@RFang_SC) December 16, 2019

 

[PK Gaming]

Ok Ness isn't A Tier but Mediocre is a bit harsh. The character still is in the Top 20 for Oveall Results on Orionstats and Solo Ness has wins on Cosmos, voiD, ESAM, and a lot of other top players. Ness has potential, he's just not quite that high.
There's no logical reason why Bowser is that low

I said mediocre at high levels of play(which applies to most of the cast), not mediocre overall.

He can't really do much in the current meta when every top tier stomps him

 

[Frihetsanka]

is definitely not a losing MU, Gackt has gone through a gauntlet of Jokers at some Korean tournament whose name currently escapes me, even forcing a switch from MKLeo to (btw, if MK Leo wields his secondary for one of your characters then you know the MU is even at best for Joker). Speaking of , FOW has taken a set off of Mr. R while he was using Chrom. The MU is still losing because swordslol, but it's not nearly as bad as you're claiming it to be (as another user mentioned they blow each other up off-stage).

-It's been widely accepted that Ness and Joker are even, even by MkLeo, Ness destroys Joker offstage with Magnet gimping Tether and yoyo making Arsene's recovery not a big problem. Ness also doesn't have as big of a problem with dealing with Arsene as he can run away if need be and with his multi-hitting aerials and strong attacks Arsene usually goes away with 5 attacks or less. Joker also does well because Gun offstage.

Regarding Joker, Zan thinks Joker slightly wins, Wishes thinks it's Even or +1 for Joker, MkLeo thinks it's even, Blank thinks Joker solidly wins, BestNess thinks Joker slightly wins. I'm more inclined to believe top players than people on Smashboards in general, mostly because they actually have experience of top level Joker play first hand. They're not necessarily right, of course, and it's plausible you're right and they're wrong (MkLeo, after all, thinks it's even). I think it's fairly likely Joker does slightly win the matchup, though. Him being the (likely) best character in the game helps.

-Roy and Chrom seem to come down to who can get the other offstage first, both characters can brutally exploit the other offstage, while I'd hand the matchup to Chrom/Roy because swords on a personal note, I don't think losing is quite the word for it as if Ness gets Chrom offstage it's basically the stock and Roy's goal isn't really to space disjoints, which is how you shut down Ness so I don't know.

Goblin thinks Roy goes even, BestNess that Ness slightly loses to both, Lancelot that Chrom slightly wins versus Ness. Seems pretty likely that Ness loses that matchup, but that's not a lot of MU charts to go on. If we look at some older MU charts, Shojo James (back in March) thought Chrom won, Leffen (also March) though Roy and Ness was even, S1 (back in February) thought Ness lose to both Roy and Chrom. Seems Chrom is likely slightly losing and Roy either slightly losing or even?

-Greninja doesn't win against Ness but it's certainly an uphill battle, a rough even but certainly doable with Ness' comboes, offstage and ledgetrapping game compared to Greninja and the fact that Greninja is super light while being a decently sized character works wonders for Ness' kill confirms. Also side note Ness cannot absorb Water Shuriken

BestNess and Jw think Greninja wins, Somé thinks even, Tarik even or slight advantage for Greninja.

Note that I'm not saying that just because top players tend to believe one thing that it must be true. However, if you're pushing the narrative "X is clearly even" while many top players think Ness loses the matchup, then I will call you out for it (unless you acknowledge that what you're saying goes against top player MU charts).

The source I used for MU charts: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/d5ryz6/matchup_chart_compilation_v2/

The source I used for the outdated MU charts: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bef485/matchup_chart_compilation/

 

[DE235]

Rishi posted a tier grid something I have been waiting to see thought it was worth a look.
https://imgur.com/EmQ0txx
The video he used it in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv6Xx5sCp3M&t=605s

 

[Anomilus]

Zackray just lost a game to Kome, and countered to Ridley. Won the first game, lost the second--but it was still closer than his ROB. He was able to force Shulk to respect his range, and sneak in a lethal dash attack or side-b when he respected him too much.

Any way I can see this game?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Seems S1 just released a new Ness MU chart:

Since it's almost a new year, it is time for a new Ness MU chart. Don't think I have too many controversial things in it but I'll gladly discuss my view on some placings. I will admit there are some chars I can still need more exp against but I'm happy with the result. pic.twitter.com/1LjNHV7Rc5

— S1 (@S1_SSB) December 16, 2019

Palutena and Lucina -2 MUs, Mega Man, Marth, Yoshi, Ike, Wario, Shulk, Inkling, Mr. Game & Watch, and Young Link -1. Notably even with Greninja, Peach, Joker, Pokémon Trainer, Roy, Chrom, and Pichu. Notably winning versus Pikachu, Wolf, Snake, and Fox.

This strengthens the case for several even matchups, although also a few more losing ones.

Regarding Wario: Meru and S1 think Wario wins, BestNess Even. Regarding Inkling: BestNess thinks it's even, S1, Armada, Space, and Xzax think Inkling wins. Mega Man, Morpheus, S1, and BestNess all think Mega Man wins.

Ness beating Snake doesn't seem too implausible, Mr R. thinks it's slightly losing or even, Pelca and Shogun think it's slightly losing, so does S1. BestNess actually has it as slightly losing for Ness though, which is interesting. If we look at older MU charts, we see that Ally (in April) put it as Even, MVD (also April) put it as even or +1 for Snake. Seems like an unclear matchup.

Regarding Wolf, Daybreak, Larry Lurr, and Jared all put it as even, as does BestNess. S1's +1 seems like an outlier (though it's not impossible that he's correct). If we look at older charts, Seagull Joe puts it as +1 for Wolf (in April), Zackray (in February) as even. Even seems pretty likely, overall.

Ultimately, I think S1 is a bit too optimistic for a few of these winning MUs, Wolf and Fox in particular (especially Wolf). Ness still seems like a high high-mid character or a low high-tier character.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Seems S1 just released a new Ness MU chart:

Since it's almost a new year, it is time for a new Ness MU chart. Don't think I have too many controversial things in it but I'll gladly discuss my view on some placings. I will admit there are some chars I can still need more exp against but I'm happy with the result. pic.twitter.com/1LjNHV7Rc5

— S1 (@S1_SSB) December 16, 2019

Palutena and Lucina -2 MUs, Mega Man, Marth, Yoshi, Ike, Wario, Shulk, Inkling, Mr. Game & Watch, and Young Link -1. Notably even with Greninja, Peach, Joker, Pokémon Trainer, Roy, Chrom, and Pichu. Notably winning versus Pikachu, Wolf, Snake, and Fox.

This strengthens the case for several even matchups, although also a few more losing ones.

Regarding Wario: Meru and S1 think Wario wins, BestNess Even. Regarding Inkling: BestNess thinks it's even, S1, Armada, Space, and Xzax think Inkling wins. Mega Man, Morpheus, S1, and BestNess all think Mega Man wins.

Ness beating Snake doesn't seem too implausible, Mr R. thinks it's slightly losing or even, Pelca and Shogun think it's slightly losing, so does S1. BestNess actually has it as slightly losing for Ness though, which is interesting. If we look at older MU charts, we see that Ally (in April) put it as Even, MVD (also April) put it as even or +1 for Snake. Seems like an unclear matchup.

Regarding Wolf, Daybreak, Larry Lurr, and Jared all put it as even, as does BestNess. S1's +1 seems like an outlier (though it's not impossible that he's correct). If we look at older charts, Seagull Joe puts it as +1 for Wolf (in April), Zackray (in February) as even. Even seems pretty likely, overall.

Ultimately, I think S1 is a bit too optimistic for a few of these winning MUs, Wolf and Fox in particular (especially Wolf). Ness still seems like a high high-mid character or a low high-tier character.

Well it commom belief that Palutena and Ness are his worst MU's. Who are the top-tiers that are the easiest to pick up and play at all levels of skill..

So Ness is basically close to the same was in the late Smash 4 meta . Possibly around the bottom of high-tier. But unforuatley struggles hard vs common top-tier characters. i.e

 

[Frihetsanka]

So Ness is basically in the same place as os was in Smash 4.

I think he was much worse in Smash 4. Several -2 matchups, many -1 matchups, and Corrin was borderline -3. Rosalina was really bad too (probably still losing but she's barely relevant to the meta for the time being, with a few notable exceptions). Which is the main reason we rate by weighted matchups, losing to Palutena and Lucina is far worse than losing to Rosalina or Luigi or something like that.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Regarding Joker, Zan thinks Joker slightly wins, Wishes thinks it's Even or +1 for Joker, MkLeo thinks it's even, Blank thinks Joker solidly wins, BestNess thinks Joker slightly wins. I'm more inclined to believe top players than people on Smashboards in general, mostly because they actually have experience of top level Joker play first hand. They're not necessarily right, of course, and it's plausible you're right and they're wrong (MkLeo, after all, thinks it's even). I think it's fairly likely Joker does slightly win the matchup, though. Him being the (likely) best character in the game helps.

Goblin thinks Roy goes even, BestNess that Ness slightly loses to both, Lancelot that Chrom slightly wins versus Ness. Seems pretty likely that Ness loses that matchup, but that's not a lot of MU charts to go on. If we look at some older MU charts, Shojo James (back in March) thought Chrom won, Leffen (also March) though Roy and Ness was even, S1 (back in February) thought Ness lose to both Roy and Chrom. Seems Chrom is likely slightly losing and Roy either slightly losing or even?

BestNess and Jw think Greninja wins, Somé thinks even, Tarik even or slight advantage for Greninja.

Note that I'm not saying that just because top players tend to believe one thing that it must be true. However, if you're pushing the narrative "X is clearly even" while many top players think Ness loses the matchup, then I will call you out for it (unless you acknowledge that what you're saying goes against top player MU charts).

The source I used for MU charts: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/d5ryz6/matchup_chart_compilation_v2/

The source I used for the outdated MU charts: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bef485/matchup_chart_compilation/

That BestNess MU chart in that Reddit post is old and outdated and he did a new one in August in a video.

It’s important to look at context with everything, BN has a awful mentality as pointed out. Not trying to rude to him or anything but it’s a fact, in fact it’s lead him to quit Smash as of yesterday. As a result he’s pretty pessimistic about both his characters and if you compare even his August MU chart (which still is kinda sus imo) to MU charts of a lot other Ness players you see his very much the outlier.

Since FOW or Awestin don’t have charts that I’m aware of I’m going to use Ness players a tier below them for comparison.

Lumbre - Has multiple PGR wins notably is 4-0 against VoiD beating all of his characters, came within a misinput of beating MKLeo’s Marth and places within the 97th-33rd range and super majors
https://mobile.twitter.com/LumbreSSB/status/1184211602125414400


I’ve tried to find more from ATATA, PK Chris, and Gackt but they quite frankly don’t exist or I can’t find them, which does pose a problem when the most visible MU chart is quite frankly a bad one. As someone who’s played this character against all kinds of players of all kinds of skill levels for years. While I’m not a top player I am fairly confident in my ability to rate his MUs and going off the general consensus most reasonable Ness players will tell you the new S1 and Lumbre charts are the more accurate ones.

If we are doing weighted Matchups, Lucina, Palu and Shulk are widely accepted as the roadblocks. Lucina and Palu are common which is unfortunate but Shulk only matters if you run into a Kome/Nicko level opponent which is rare enough to not matter. And in actuality Gackt is positive in sets over Kome so take that as you will.

After those two out of the common characters (let’s just list commonly acknowledged top tiers).

You have Joker contenders for number one mostly regarded as even. Peach also a contender mostly regarded as even. Snake another contender usually regarded as Ness favor or even. Then you have the Chus, widely regarded as winning. Inkling who I don’t agree with S1 or Lumbre (Lumbre got to grind a lot with Armada recently) is slight loss or even. Wolf or Fox both regarded as even. Wario usually even, sometimes slight loss not common seeing that way, PT Trainer who is super common usually seen as even. Roy/Chrom is pretty volatile being seen as even to slight all around.

ZSS is usually seen as slight loss but ZSS is uncommon.

Unless I forgot someone out of the generally seen as top tier characters you have

2 Bad MUs with common characters
1 Bad MUs with a very rare character
2-4 seen as a slight loss with common to uncommon characters
7 seen as even (including with Peach and Joker likely the number one and two characters in the game)
2-4 seen as winning (including a top five contender in Snake and Pika depending on who you ask).

Even if we weigh this, it doesn’t paint a bleak picture for Ness. He has a few uphill battles but for the most part his fine against the best characters in this game, even having legitimate use against some characters that draw a lot of ire from a large portion of the cast (Pika, Snake, Joker).

With BN quitting he will probably drop out of the top 20 in results a placed he has been in consistently this entire year but if FOW or Awestin start going to stuff or Gackt/S1 is able to get around more he should have no issue getting back into that range.

The character is not a run of the mill mid tier, it’s time the public accepts this.

 

[B_Burg]

Rishi posted a tier grid something I have been waiting to see thought it was worth a look.
https://imgur.com/EmQ0txx
The video he used it in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv6Xx5sCp3M&t=605s

I've listened to his explanation in the video and I think I get it, but I feel like a good number of the characters in the chart fall in... odd places I suppose. Do you know if he explained his reasoning behind each placement anywhere in more depth?

 

[Frihetsanka]

That BestNess MU chart in that Reddit post is old and outdated and he did a new one in August in a video.

It's the same chart, isn't it?

If we are doing weighted Matchups, Lucina, Palu and Shulk are widely accepted as the roadblocks. Lucina and Palu are common which is unfortunate but Shulk only matters if you run into a Kome/Nicko level opponent which is rare enough to not matter. And in actuality Gackt is positive in sets over Kome so take that as you will.

When talking about tier lists one generally talks about top level of play (Ness is probably a bit better at lower levels of play, although Lucina and Palutena are probably big issues even there). I agree that Shulk, realistically speaking, is not as bad as Lucina and Palutena, still somewhat notable character, especially considering how Kome and Nicko are getting more results. Gackt doing well against Kome indicates that it might just be slightly losing for Ness though (or that Gackt is a better player/better at the matchup, I suppose).

You have Joker contenders for number one mostly regarded as even.

There appears to be a mix of opinion when it comes to Joker. I assume the Ness players lean towards Even?

Unless I forgot someone out of the generally seen as top tier characters you have

Arguably Greninja, who is arguably slightly losing (could be Even though).

The character is not a run of the mill mid tier, it’s time the public accepts this.

I think they have, most people seem to put Ness in lower end of high tier or upper end of high-mid tier. He's better than he was in Smash 4, but doesn't seem to be a contender for top 20 or anything like that. Top 30 seems more plausible, maybe top 25 if you're really optimistic.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Mobile so I can’t quote format easily.

It's the same chart, isn't it?

When talking about tier lists one generally talks about top level of play (Ness is probably a bit better at lower levels of play, although Lucina and Palutena are probably big issues even there). I agree that Shulk, realistically speaking, is not as bad as Lucina and Palutena, still somewhat notable character, especially considering how Kome and Nicko are getting more results. Gackt doing well against Kome indicates that it might just be slightly losing for Ness though (or that Gackt is a better player/better at the matchup, I suppose).

There appears to be a mix of opinion when it comes to Joker. I assume the Ness players lean towards Even?

Arguably Greninja, who is arguably slightly losing (could be Even though).

I think they have, most people seem to put Ness in lower end of high tier or upper end of high-mid tier. He's better than he was in Smash 4, but doesn't seem to be a contender for top 20 or anything like that. Top 30 seems more plausible, maybe top 25 if you're really optimistic.

He had a different one I cant find it anymore I recall seeing it in the Ness discord that had differences from the one posted above. Since I can’t find it we will just have to go off this one.

The even for Joker comes from MKLeo and mostly the few Ness players charts you’ll see. With how most people will tell you they lose to Joker being even with him is a pretty nice niche to have.

Ah Greninja, I find it to be a slight slight loss but most Ness players don’t tend to agree and have it even. Seeing as S1 is in Europe he’s got plenty of top levels Greninja’s he’s likely gotten experience from.

I still see Ness in the low 30’s high 40’s a bit. I agree completely that he’s not top 20, don’t think 25 or better is too much a stretch when you really sit down and look at the roster. We can’t completely ignore results, Ness doesn’t have a PGR level player (BN and Gackt should be PGR this season however). Yet he still maintains great results despite a less talented player pool, even if a fair bit of it comes from lower tiered tournaments (which still should matter when talking the overall metagame).

If I had to place him I’d say 23-28 is probably where he will lie through the game’s history.

 

[Arthur97]

Dark Samus has a bigger hurtbox, and doesn’t shrink her hurtbox when she double jumps. Her Upsmash may initially connect better, but it drops opponents more. Her charge shot can hit opponents on the ledge, but Samus’ Fsmash has better range.

Due to the hurtbox difference alone, I’d give the edge to Samus in most MUs, although it doesn’t matter too much realistically.



TL outzones YL, and kills more effectively. YL does have better damage wracking capability, though. Watching Sigma and Lv. 1 beat some excellent players and characters has me leaning toward TL at the moment, but there isn’t a YL equivalent of Sigma/Lv. 1 or even Xcal.

Finally, TL and YL are not echos or clones of each other.



On the flip side, Roy has less consistency in combos and KOs than Chrom, yet Lucina gets the edge and Chrom doesn’t.

What Roy’s gain in horizontal distance means practically is vastly overrated.

Yeah, YL to Link is probably a better choice for a clone comparison as TL has several different moves.

As for Chrom/Roy, I tend to agree that people over estimate Roy's recovery (how many times does he just miss the ledge?), but another part of it probably that Roy's sweetspots are not as hard to land. Really though, if you actually need the range, Chrom may be the better choice. Plus, he has other smaller benefits like an extra active frame on F-Smash, a harder to escape U-Smash (does that move even have a sweetspot on Roy? If not, then Chrom's is probably just better), moving forward on his F-Tilt as well as apparently their counters having different knockback numbers (why couldn't Lucina have something like that?).

 

[DE235]

I've listened to his explanation in the video and I think I get it, but I feel like a good number of the characters in the chart fall in... odd places I suppose. Do you know if he explained his reasoning behind each placement anywhere in more depth?

The only other video I can think of is this one which is about rule sets more than tier list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SA_U6JoA7g

 

[Frihetsanka]

If I had to place him I’d say 23-28 is probably where he will lie through the game’s history.

My guess would be around 22-33 given current DLC (new DLC can help or hurt him, if he gets some winning matchups against good DLC characters that would be helpful, although he could also get some -1 or even -2 matchups from new DLC, so we'll see). Right now I have him around 26-30 range but it's hard to tell for sure. He's clearly not terrible but also clearly not great, clearly better than in Smash 4 at least.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Anyone else feel like could be top 10?

yes. probably not but it's still a possibility.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Anyone else feel like could be top 10?

Top 10 seems doubtful, top 15 decently likely. Neither of them seem to beat any other top tiers, but they go even with most of them and don't have all that many losing matchups. I think both are roughly similar in viability, either at the top of high tier or bottom of top tier, probably.

 

[Arthur97]

yes. probably not but it's still a possibility.

Why would Chrom not be? And please don't reply with recovery.

 

[TennisBall]

I said mediocre at high levels of play(which applies to most of the cast), not mediocre overall.

He can't really do much in the current meta when every top tier stomps him

I know you meant mediocre at high levels of play, and my response is what that was referring to. Admittedly that's debatable but I am under the opinion that it's more than just mediocre.
Also not every top tier stomps Ness. He does decently enough against Pikachu,Joker, Fox, Snake, Peach, and if we go much deeper into controversial statements, Wolf and Pokemon Trainer. Sure, he loses to Lucina and Palu hard, which are common characters and yes, Ness is falling off especially with BestNess quitting Smash all together, but top tier power creep isn't the main reason.

Why would Chrom not be? And please don't reply with recovery.

Um......I'm replying with recovery because what else do you expect but since you didn't want that I'll give something else too, Chrom is more consistent on stage without sourspots, but the thing is landing sweetspots up close is a lot easier than landing sweetspots while spacing, not to mention Roy kills so early that sometimes Chrom doesn't even have the edge in killing more easily most of the time.

When talking about tier lists one generally talks about top level of play (Ness is probably a bit better at lower levels of play, although Lucina and Palutena are probably big issues even there). I agree that Shulk, realistically speaking, is not as bad as Lucina and Palutena, still somewhat notable character, especially considering how Kome and Nicko are getting more results. Gackt doing well against Kome indicates that it might just be slightly losing for Ness though (or that Gackt is a better player/better at the matchup, I suppose).

I'm gonna have to go with Gackt is really good at the video game because that match up is horrific for Ness and almost everyone else that plays Ness seems to agree with that statement.
-With Shield Art Ness is just unable to get his confirms for long periods of time, this can be a problem because without them Ness has to rely on stray hits, which while he has a better time killing off of those than most others, it's still a problem, and getting stray hits against a swordie is much easier said than done
-Ness gets so outranged you as well place a giant hitbox in front of Shulk at all times.
-Smash Art makes it so you die at such low percents especially considering Ness' recovery.
-Oh yeah Ness' recovery just in general really hurts him against this giant sword
Props to Gackt for being so good because that match-up hurts

 

[Lacrimosa]

Another new tier-list, this time from M2K, covering bottom, low and mid-tier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwZ-si6WXg0

Mid-tier:
Low-tier:
Bottom-tier:

Very...controversial to say the least.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I find that just trying to make a top 20 is hard already, let alone making a top 10. Based off of my opinions and tourney results and placements, all of these characters are good candidates for top 20: and possibly (No, I'm not kidding about the last one).

Top 10 becomes even more muddled, where my likely candidates for THAT are: .

Pretty much what I'm getting it as that trying to form a top 10 feels very arbitrary in a meta that still doesn't know what a good chunk of the cast is supposed to do (case in point: Pretty much all of the Miis); more importantly, it feels arbitrary in a meta where the top 5/10 isn't even that much farther ahead than the rest of the cast, despite claims of Pikachu being "in a league of his own".

 

[Arthur97]

Indeed, what is the point of a top tier if it doesn't mean much? Really, what do these exerciser in tier lists do other than get pros views on YouTube?

Though, why would you consider Falcon a contender for top 20?

Um......I'm replying with recovery because what else do you expect but since you didn't want that I'll give something else too, Chrom is more consistent on stage without sourspots, but the thing is landing sweetspots up close is a lot easier than landing sweetspots while spacing, not to mention Roy kills so early that sometimes Chrom doesn't even have the edge in killing more easily most of the time.

Because while Chrom may get, say, a 60 (barely passing) in recovery, Roy's only got about a 65 (these are fairly arbitrary numbers), and that's only one aspect. I'm just not confident that is a decent reason to have Roy definitely be called better, but people just love to spout that off.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Very...controversial to say the least.

Doesn't seem that controversial to me. Sure, I don't agree 100% with it but none of them are clearly high tier or anything. Cloud is probably the most controversial placement, I suppose. Pit and Hero seem far too low as well (though, to be fair, we haven't exactly seen a ton of Pit players).

 

[FruitLoop]

Another new tier-list, this time from M2K, covering bottom, low and mid-tier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwZ-si6WXg0

Mid-tier:
Low-tier:
Bottom-tier:

Very...controversial to say the least.

Yea... that's not looking too hot.

Some of these placements are REAL wack:

and and possiby even in low tier seems REAL sus. Like you can make the argument that is low tier even if I disagree sure, but MARTH and LUCARIO? Marth's obviously inferior to Lucina but is he really that much worse? He's still got mostly safe hitboxes and an almost equally as good weighted matchup spread as lucina. I guess his results aren't great? But like, Mew2King depends too much on that alone. I still don't get why is even a fraction as low lol.

def seems WAY too high. I think he based his placement purely on Zaki who hasn't even gotten any particularly amazing results with the character and his personal experience with gordo. He focuses too much on 's ability to use gordo and whether or not the cast can deal with it when it's not as big of a factor when you can just roll or maneuver towards or away from it.

and being in high tier is a little sus and seems too low.

Just my two cents.

 

[BitBitio]

may seem too low, but keep in mind that has gotten considerably better results than despite being less hyped up. If anything, he’s too low.
Also, no way is that high.