Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[boysilver400]

I know I’m probably late, but I have to ask: What exactly makes Wolf better than Fox outside of him being so popular? They’re both amazing characters, but I’m starting to doubt Wolf being the best spacie.

I’ve been playing as Wolf a lot lately, and there are so many situations where I got stupidly gimped and lost a stock, whereas Fox would’ve made it back. Wolf’s recovery moves may be stronger, which can make him scarier to edge guard, but he still has a harder time getting back, at least from what I’ve seen.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Parries definitely need to give you more time to punish when you parry. The idea was borrowed from fighting games but in fighting games, you can almost always get big damage off one hit if you have resources to burn

PREACH.

Parry just is not good enough for how difficult it is. More plus frames AND I want projectile reflection.

 

[Sean²]

I know I’m probably late, but I have to ask: What exactly makes Wolf better than Fox outside of him being so popular? They’re both amazing characters, but I’m starting to doubt Wolf being the best spacie.

I’ve been playing as Wolf a lot lately, and there are so many situations where I got stupidly gimped and lost a stock, whereas Fox would’ve made it back. Wolf’s recovery moves may be stronger, which can make him scarier to edge guard, but he still has a harder time getting back, at least from what I’ve seen.

Wolf's recovery doesn't cover the same distance, but Fox's is more exploitable when he needs to use it. Like the moment you see Fox starting to use firefox, is the time you go out for the edgeguard. It's easy to spike and in general not as scary to deal with before he starts moving. His side B isn't as scary to intercept, either. Add that onto him being a lightweight, and that makes up a lot of Fox's weaknesses right there.

Wolf's up B will just straight up kill you around 120 at the ledge, and the side B spike is no joke to mess around with - but big disjoints like Marth or Lucina's sword can intercept it pretty easily as well.

Fox has a good confirm into usmash basically any time he wants, Wolf basically has no useful confirms that aren't completely situational and DI dependent - but has strong normals that will kill earlier than Fox, barring Fox's uair. Also Wolf has his Laser, that's a big chunk of the reason people rate him higher than Fox. Fox can't really out-zone anyone, he has to be in your face. Wolf can take on the best zoners in their own game just with one move.

Most of the reason people picked him up was hearsay/FOTM, and the fact that you don't really need to know any character specific tech to use him. You can just have decent fundamentals and do pretty well. Notice how few solo Wolf mains there are, and how many top players who use him solely as a secondary? Smash 4 Cloud comes to mind. Fox is a little tougher to just pick up in that regard.

 

[Rizen]

Some characters can do it well, like if you use Palutena and teleport cancel the moment you get a stock lead. I had someone try this on me once and, though I won, it was an absolute war of attrition of me trying to time hits for when she landed on the ledge of the platform, and her nickel and diming damage on me here and there. I could have easily lost that set if I didn't remain just as patient as that guy - I got a lucky hit with like 10 seconds left on an 8 minute timer. Some other characters are fast enough to circle camp BF platforms if they really wanted to.

And you're lucky to have those stages legal where you're at. A lot of places have YI and YS, banned. Sometimes Lylat as well. with Kalos/T&C/FD - usually at least 2 out of the 3 - as starters. 3 stages that promote the same kind of gameplay/tactics. The same types of characters do well on all of those stages. You're usually limited to Smashville and BF if you want a primarily different type of stage.

One of the reasons Palutena's so good is she's a slippery character; warp gives her a lot of momentum akin to SSB4 Mewtwo.

The stage list here is (iirc):
Starters:
BF, Lylat, SV, FD, PS2
CPs:
TnC, Kalos, Unova, YStory, YI and sometimes they throw in Castle Siege.

IMO it works out pretty well. SV ends up being a compromise starter if one player likes to camp and the other likes small stages. I'm able to CP one of the large stages but IMO 's best stage is Unova. And people can CP me to YI, CS, or SV when I ban BF and Lylat.

Unova's great for YL because the stage walls let him throw bombs down without the opponent hiding under the stage as they recover. The side platform layout is easy to reach with boomerang, great to camp under and gives YL a landing mixup when he returns to the stage.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I think it should be important, when considering the current metagame, which characters will rise above the others. At this point in time, we are seeing certain heavies/superheavies fall behind based on sheer frame data putting them at a disadvantage. Such examples include ,,, and . Now, there are exceptions to this, as there are with practically anything. is a beast of a character all to himself and may be a top tier. has combos yet to be explored. And I don't think that we can fairly judge yet.
However, I have always been wondering, when are the so-called "underrated characters" going to rise up? I think has OUTSTANDING combo potential, but I have yet to seen a player finish at a high spot using them. If can shock Frostbite, why can't some other "underrated" character do so?
Discussing the future, here are some movements we may see in the (far) future.
Most of these decisions made are based on how tier lists have changed over the history of previous Smash games, as well as lab training clips, which are quite complex, but may be utilized in the future. Furthermore, there are many characters that top players are utilizing more now than in the past, especially online, which may lead to pockets or mains in the next coming months. Most of these characters will likely be used as pockets.
Going up:
Going down:
Now, I know that is really good at this point. However, people will eventually learn how to space around nair, and parrying will be easier. I'm not predicting a super big fall, but he might not be considered top tier in the future, and will most likely hang around the lower end of high tier.
I feel the most confident regarding. In my opinion, people will likely start utilizing icees against sword characters, since it would require VERY careful spacing to avoid the one-touch-and-you-die scenario.

All that being said, most of these opinions are most likely garbage since the patch coming tonight (or 3.0.0) will likely give a lot of the heavies mentioned kill combos like in Smash 4. A similar thing happened, in that and were LAUGHABLY bad before they got kill combos. But all the speculation I am doing is in reference to how things might be if they stay how it is now.

I don't see how Pokemon Trainer will go down. It seems almost every week, players are finding new combos/tech about the character and because you're using 3 unique characters, it will take time to optimize match-ups. I don't believe many are giving up on the character and most agree that there's a lot of potential. Unless they heavily nerf the character (Ivysaur) I don't see Pokemon Trainer going anywhere... If anything Pandarian's recent success against high level players gives me hope that this character will remain a threat in the future.

Speaking of which, many say that Pichu/Pikachu are bad match-ups for Trainer but Pandarian has showed that they can be even. I haven't posted here in a while but his use of Charizard (!) against Pikachu was awesome. People are calling for Charizard buffs but the character is still good at what he does. Zard excels at the ledge where you can trap opponents with ftilt, flamethrower, or bair.

I still see a lot of players in SoCal using Donkey Kong and having success with him against good players so I may disagree there. The other heavies will probably drop off, much like previous Smash games. But then again, Nairo's Ganondorf seems to prove that these juggernauts can compete, albeit in character specific match-ups.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fatality has just released a Falcon matchup chart.

If you want the full matchup chart right now (although I do recommend viewing the video for the explanations):


+2
+1
He feels fairly confident on these matchups.
+1 or Even
He believes that with time, these matchups may potentially be solid +1 matchups for Falcon. Mii Sword used to be even, but he actually changed it to this category mid video, the only character that he changed placements with mid video. There is only one character he actually believes that it is +1 now but even with time: Sheik. He believes that Sheik may potentially get better in the matchup in the future.
Even
These matchups he believes can go either way. He noted that the Ken, Mewtwo, Falco, and Ness matchups are matchups where "they destroy eachother", due to simply how volatile it is. Dedede is placed higher than the other heavies simply because Dedede has more threatening options in neutral, while being hard to edgeguard. He did note that more Dedede experience may be required.
-1 or Even
Fatality believes that each of these matchups, with time, most likely goes to even. The only exception is Luigi, as while it can go to even, he believes that it will be firmly a -1 matchup unlike the others in this category. The 0-death combos are too powerful on Falcon.
-1
These matchups he feels like they slightly get the upper hand over Falcon.
-1 or -2
These he feels are his 3 worst matchups. He does think that the Chus may be -1 with time, though he firmly believes that they are -1 matchups if future patches make Raptor Boost more consistent to hit opponents.

 

[Lacrimosa]

While we are at it: Armada with an Inkling MU chart.

 

[Siledh]

I am not watching 48 minutes and 68 minutes for a match up chart. Just give me the chart.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I am not watching 48 minutes and 68 minutes for a match up chart. Just give me the chart.

Same here. But one can always see the whole chart at the end.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Fatality has just released a Falcon matchup chart.

If you want the full matchup chart right now (although I do recommend viewing the video for the explanations):


+2
+1
He feels fairly confident on these matchups.
+1 or Even
He believes that with time, these matchups may potentially be solid +1 matchups for Falcon. Mii Sword used to be even, but he actually changed it to this category mid video, the only character that he changed placements with mid video. There is only one character he actually believes that it is +1 now but even with time: Sheik. He believes that Sheik may potentially get better in the matchup in the future.
Even
These matchups he believes can go either way. He noted that the Ken, Mewtwo, Falco, and Ness matchups are matchups where "they destroy eachother", due to simply how volatile it is. Dedede is placed higher than the other heavies simply because Dedede has more threatening options in neutral, while being hard to edgeguard. He did note that more Dedede experience may be required.
-1 or Even
Fatality believes that each of these matchups, with time, most likely goes to even. The only exception is Luigi, as while it can go to even, he believes that it will be firmly a -1 matchup unlike the others in this category. The 0-death combos are too powerful on Falcon.
-1
These matchups he feels like they slightly get the upper hand over Falcon.
-1 or -2
These he feels are his 3 worst matchups. He does think that the Chus may be -1 with time, though he firmly believes that they are -1 matchups if future patches make Raptor Boost more consistent to hit opponents.

Agree, pretty much across the board.

 

[NotLiquid]

While we are at it: Armada with an Inkling MU chart.

Aside from multiple characters not being ranked here for perplexing reasons (though not necessarily containing any standout knowledge/are generally good MUs) it looks like a pretty good MU chart that actually aligns somewhat decently with Cosmos', though there are a few interesting deviations

Armada ranking this as losing doesn't surprise me too much; he's had problems in this MU. Conversely, Cosmos seems to have essentially mastered the MU. Despite Squirtle being a master harasser and Ivysaur's razor leaves being the bane of mobility options, they don't seem to have all that many responses to an Inkling who stays grounded and reactive. Ivysaur is lucky parrying kinda sucks right now against projectiles or else this MU would be a no contest.

I've said that Wario is a frustrating MU for Inkling and I'm actually kinda interested why Cosmos won't face the music on this one. It's not unwinnable by any means but Wario is always going to have a leg up on the simple fact that his game plan circumvents Inkling's most effective kill options while also having way better kill options of his own - and this is while being one of the few characters who can actually edgeguard Inkling and will always have a one stock advantage thanks to waft. I don't know whether Cosmos streamed his own MU chart but I'll have to go back into his archives and see if he rationalizes his position because I'm more inclined to side with Armada on this one.

Theoretically Yoshi should win this MU handily. He's got better buttons, he's got about ten different ways to kill and he's hard to edgeguard. That being said, Cosmos hasn't actually had much trouble facing off against some of the better Yoshi players on the block, and I guess a lot of that boils down to Yoshi still not responding the best against shielding and actually sort of losing the spacing game. I lean Armada on this one but I can see why Cosmos thinks it's even.

Oddly enough, an MU where Armada is more optimistic than Cosmos. I basically stick by what I said earlier in this thread that this MU won't develop in Ness' favor. His kill grab is a complete non factor against a defensive Inkling considering her BAir stuffs out so many of his approaches for it, while PK Fire cannot confirm into it unless it's point blank - which is way too hard of a read that ain't worth it. His CQC is undoubtedly better, especially since Inkling doesn't even have the privilege of a head hitbox on her NAir, and his DSmash forces Inkling to mix up recoveries, but once he gets forced off-stage Ness wishes he had Lucas' recovery in this MU. Considering Armada's fixation on edge guarding, I get why he feels Inkling cinches it here.

Inklingcord has been convinced since day one that Inkling actually does alright in this MU, so it's funny to see Armada agree here. Inkling has the privilege of completely stymieing any attempt at a side B recovery. To say Inkling can easily two-frame him is a bit of a misnomer; Wolf's side B just doesn't snap onto the ledge, and Inkling has one of the absolute best moves to take advantage of that in the form of DTilt, along with DSmash which becomes a dangerous kill option if Wolf attempts a side B. As far as overall utility these characters run pretty hand in hand with Inkling benefiting way more from Wolf being aggressive due to him having some fairly easy moves to respond to. That said I think Wolf does well when conditioned to play lame with his lasers, despite the fact that Inkling can circumnavigate them, and at the very least for the time being he earns way more out of taking hard reads.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I was surfing around Twitter, when I found this. lol

やっとリュウの判定可視化来たのかー！どれ早速見てみ...は？？？？？ pic.twitter.com/cbZrqSLpFZ

— 〆さばとら (@torasabatora02) April 3, 2019

Although this is technically better for Ryu, as it will make it much less likely to whiff a jab against smaller opponents........... what is this hitbox placement?

 

[KakuCP9]

I think it has more to do with the hitbox mod having kinks to work out rather than the actual hitbox AFAIK cause it leads to stuff like this.

"The hitbox visualizing mod is incomplete, so please take it with a grain of salt. When a character model's part enlargens during an attack animation, the shield graphic used to visualize the hitbox end up enlargening as well, causing the image to the right." https://t.co/cfD5ptziQJ

— pereden @ ff14 vortex (@perepereden) April 4, 2019

 

[Lavani]

I was surfing around Twitter, when I found this. lol

やっとリュウの判定可視化来たのかー！どれ早速見てみ...は？？？？？ pic.twitter.com/cbZrqSLpFZ

— 〆さばとら (@torasabatora02) April 3, 2019

Although this is technically better for Ryu, as it will make it much less likely to whiff a jab against smaller opponents........... what is this hitbox placement?

I think it has more to do with the hitbox mod having kinks to work out rather than the actual hitbox AFAIK cause it leads to stuff like this.

"The hitbox visualizing mod is incomplete, so please take it with a grain of salt. When a character model's part enlargens during an attack animation, the shield graphic used to visualize the hitbox end up enlargening as well, causing the image to the right." https://t.co/cfD5ptziQJ

— pereden @ ff14 vortex (@perepereden) April 4, 2019

While people should definitely be wary about this hitbox visualization still being in its early stages and misconstruing a number of hitboxes, Ryu's jab was actually like this in 4 already:

 

[Smartz]

So I'm joining in this conversation late.

Isn't the hit box visualisation mod still in its early stages of development? (That's what I've been told at least.) I was also told most of the hit boxes in this game were a lot cleaner in this game (what I've been told, I have in no way tested every single move in the game and only have really played 15% seriously) like for example how Dedede's dtilt's awful blind spot was removed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So I'm joining in this conversation late.

Isn't the hit box visualisation mod still in its early stages of development? (That's what I've been told at least.) I was also told most of the hit boxes in this game were a lot cleaner in this game (what I've been told, I have in no way tested every single move in the game and only have really played 15% seriously) like for example how Dedede's dtilt's awful blind spot was removed.

They fixed a lot of the hitbox inconsistencies from SSB4. For example, multi-hits from Pit, Robin, and Jr. where fixed for the most part, multi-hits in general got universally buffed, and awkward hitboxes like Wii Fit's and humongous hitboxes like Bayonetta's where fixed.

However, it is not perfect:
Ganondorf has a few janky looking blindspots in a few of his moves (like f-smash, although the move's hitbox is still gigantic).
Piranha Plant is a character with a bag filled with blindspots.
DK's Giant Punch has a really awkward blindspot super close + below DK because Z-axis shenanigans.
Zelda's nair can be inconsistent at times (never encountered it's issues myself, but I heard a lot of complaining).
Bayo's multi-hits barely work at all, which is bad considering that she is in a game where she now has mediocre at best frame data and multi-hits in general connecting better across the board.
A few characters like Wolf and Pac-Man has unusually large, almost SSB4 DLC-esque, hitboxes.

I might've missed a few minor ones. Hitboxes in this game a overall a lot more polished than in previous games, and we have come along way since we were introduced to things like 64 Kirby's up tilt. However, there is still a few more things to polish up further.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am easily adapting to Wolf at this current moment. He's very easy to play with some Diddy Kong experience. He got the neutral Diddy wish he (still) had, and that makes it very easy to adjust my playstyle around that. I think I found a secondary that's really fitting for me. Makes it easier to wait out for the potential Diddy buffs in the far future.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Am easily adapting to Wolf at this current moment. He's very easy to play with some Diddy Kong experience. He got the neutral Diddy wish he (still) had, and that makes it very easy to adjust my playstyle around that. I think I found a secondary that's really fitting for me. Makes it easier to wait out for the potential Diddy buffs in the far future.

This is a personal blog entry.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Zelda's nair can be inconsistent at times (never encountered it's issues myself, but I heard a lot of complaining).
.

I don't really know about that. It seems the opponent isn't really falling out if you don't press anything. It happens when you try to drag down the opponent to the floor in order to get something like a tech chase or similar. That should be mostly fixed. Other nairs are working well in that regard (Pikachu's nair for example).

 

[Untouch]

I think you should be able to cancel the parry animation with a crouch or jump.
The animation is too long so you almost never have the time to react to aerials properly.
The system seems tailored around parrying smash attacks which isn't very common due to how uncommon just throwing out a smash attack is (except for some characters of course).

Increasing the parry window from 5 to 6 frames, increasing intangibility afterwards, and being able to jump/crouch out of the animation would make it perfect in my opinion.

 

[FruitLoop]

Imo, I feel like people are slightly overrating DDD due to his prevalence online.

The thing for DDD is that he's meant to be a defensive heavy with lots of range, but the issue is that he's horrible at forcing approaches while not having approach options himself. He only really has gordos for forcing approaches which are super slow in terms of frame data and its 2% HP (As long as its a move with knockback because thankfully you cant kill it with fox laser anymore). The Gordo Nerf actually makes trading with it twice as easy and means that you can challenge gordo with any move in the game without trades. The High Endlag of Gordo Toss + Startup of Inhale means that volleying gordo back usually means you can't really consistently have a method of volleying back your own gordos for the most part. You do have a few gordo toss niches with moves like Up-Tilt (which comes out frame 7 btw) where you can sort of use that move to buffer another gordo toss if gordo is nearby you. However it's a bit too niche at times and isn't too consistent especially since the box that's supposed to catch gordos is a bit finnicky at times. King Dedede ironically can't deal with camp despite having access to a reflector in the form of inhale due to its high startup and his poor mobility so he has to constantly read rolls to really get things going against campers which means that playing runaway from DDD is quite efficient. DDD's signature strategy of air camping is also fundamentally flawed due to his poor air speed even with decent range and multiple jumps and the fact that DDD has to jump again to face backwards so he doesn't have to land with a 19 frames of landing lag barely safe on hit Forward-Aerial is a bit problematic and makes his gameplan linear, especially if you just play runaway against DDD.

DDD is good at ledge but the fact that attack getup can attack gordo which can also hit DDD (sometimes twice) does mean that playing patiently at ledge does mean that gordo ledge traps do have some fundamental flaws. Also half of the recoveries in the game just invalidate gordo ledge traps as long as the recovery hitbox hits above ledge (Espeically if the hitbox is decently big like Ike's or Chrom's) which generally means that DDD has to either time the trap perfectly or have to go for a weaker forward-tilt 2 frame with the final hitbox or he has to commit with Down-B to hit below ledges as his only real form of killing without ledge trapping when it comes to his ledge game (Armor + hitting below ledge + killing does help though). King DDD doesn't really have an advantage state that is really anything bonkers unlike half of the cast and is generally a bit weaker when compared to most heavies and his late game despite his great survivability is often DDD having to fish for raw kill moves like Back-Air whilst having no kill throws. King DDD himself doesn't really have a good disadvantage at all due to his big hitbox + fast fall speed combination and the fact that he can't really deal with being the one at ledge even with sharking Up-Air.

DDD honestly lacks a reliable gameplan at the end of the day which gives him a problematic neutral and makes him as a character too inconsistent., His matchups against most of the cast (except he does sort of have a niche against Inkling and most heavies) tends to be pretty unfavorable due to most characters either being swordfighters whomst has better frame data and mobility and generally a better advantage state, rushdown characters that can just obliterate DDD for just breathing with his fat booty cheeks while DDD can't really do much outside of walling with forward-tilts, or characters that outcamp DDD easily, or just characters that are too explosive for DDD to handle. So honestly I don't really see DDD really doing much after people start learning the matchup unless Big D or Peli does something real special and I sort of see him dropping out of the meta. He's probably a contender for bottom 10 but feel free to discuss.

 

[N8than]

Oddly enough, an MU where Armada is more optimistic than Cosmos. I basically stick by what I said earlier in this thread that this MU won't develop in Ness' favor. His kill grab is a complete non factor against a defensive Inkling considering her BAir stuffs out so many of his approaches for it, while PK Fire cannot confirm into it unless it's point blank - which is way too hard of a read that ain't worth it. His CQC is undoubtedly better, especially since Inkling doesn't even have the privilege of a head hitbox on her NAir, and his DSmash forces Inkling to mix up recoveries, but once he gets forced off-stage Ness wishes he had Lucas' recovery in this MU. Considering Armada's fixation on edge guarding, I get why he feels Inkling cinches it here.

1) I would seriously question the amount of experience that Armada has against Ness; the man thought the character would be a low tier in smash ultimate (link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPgPtlFjeSs), and has played melee more than any other smash game, in which Ness is drastically different from (and worse than) his Smash 4 and Ultimate renditions (I think Ness will always be viable if there's no ledge hogging and his moves aren't complete trash). I'm not saying he has absolutely no knowledge about the character and I like him as a player and person, but his knowledge on Ness is still questionable.

2) I really don't think Ness's back throw factors that much into the matchup, because Ness has plenty of ways to kill in neutral without using it (he actually has better average kill power than Inkling and they both have a weight value of 94). PSI Magnet is the thing that really makes this matchup difficult for inkling because just having the option means that the inkling player needs to regulate their usage of splattershot and splat bomb, both of which are formidable tools in inklings kit (as far as I know).

 

[NotLiquid]

2) I really don't think Ness's back throw factors that much into the matchup, because Ness has plenty of ways to kill in neutral without using it (he actually has better average kill power than Inkling and they both have a weight value of 94). PSI Magnet is the thing that really makes this matchup difficult for inkling because just having the option means that the inkling player needs to regulate their usage of splattershot and splat bomb, both of which are formidable tools in inklings kit (as far as I know).

Inkling isn't beholden to Splat Bombs and Splattershot when in neutral. It's true that they're tremendous tools within neutral, but against a character with a relatively stubby range like Ness her game plan isn't particularly contingent on it. Ness doesn't have much of anything that can contend with Inkling in the horizontal space if Inkling plays lame because - and I repeat myself on this - her BAir is pretty much a Top 10 BAir in Ultimate, possibly higher if accounting for the synergy of her kit. I just don't think people realize that yet because it isn't a traditional "kill" move. What Ness generally has in the MU is a much better aggression game when point blank. He can get combos started pretty easy, and he can actually edgeguard Inkling fairly well. All of that makes a character that can swing it to an even situation, but again this is another case of a character who ends up kind of lost if the squids resort to a lame and defensive playstyle, and presumably will be even more helpless once players optimize her edgeguards. Ness isn't as privileged enough as Lucas in the off-stage situation.

Also, Magnet is a fairly notable liability in this particular matchup. What makes Ness' Magnet so potent is that most of the matchups where it should be used as a defensive option tend to mostly be against characters that are too slow to capitalize on a bait, or tend to have their attacks be projectiles that Ness can intercept and hold some control over (Snake Grenades, YL Bombs, etc.). Splat Bombs don't fit into this mold; not only can they not be picked back up, but they have an incredibly lazy trajectory, and their detonation tends to be rather sus given that they only explode on contact at certain intervals, with the actual timer being fairly lax. It's not particularly economical to magnet splat bombs since Inkling is fast enough to intercept her own projectile, meaning in the best case scenario you're liable to eat a dropkick if you miscalculate.

On your first point; even if you dismiss Armada's general opinion on Ness, he's not the only player who believes the MU leans at a disadvantage. BestNess felt the MU was a -1.

 

[Rizen]

's effectively a short sword character but with the mobility and frame data of a quick critter. Add some good range attacks and an ink multiplier and you've got a top tier. I'm surprised we don't see more of them.
I've only played bad Inklings but it makes sense in theory that they slightly beat YL.

It's interesting you can magnet splat bombs considering they're ink.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Imo, I feel like people are slightly overrating DDD due to his prevalence online.

The thing for DDD is that he's meant to be a defensive heavy with lots of range, but the issue is that he's horrible at forcing approaches while not having approach options himself. He only really has gordos for forcing approaches which are super slow in terms of frame data and its 2% HP (As long as its a move with knockback because thankfully you cant kill it with fox laser anymore). The Gordo Nerf actually makes trading with it twice as easy and means that you can challenge gordo with any move in the game without trades. The High Endlag of Gordo Toss + Startup of Inhale means that volleying gordo back usually means you can't really consistently have a method of volleying back your own gordos for the most part. You do have a few gordo toss niches with moves like Up-Tilt (which comes out frame 7 btw) where you can sort of use that move to buffer another gordo toss if gordo is nearby you. However it's a bit too niche at times and isn't too consistent especially since the box that's supposed to catch gordos is a bit finnicky at times. King Dedede ironically can't deal with camp despite having access to a reflector in the form of inhale due to its high startup and his poor mobility so he has to constantly read rolls to really get things going against campers which means that playing runaway from DDD is quite efficient. DDD's signature strategy of air camping is also fundamentally flawed due to his poor air speed even with decent range and multiple jumps and the fact that DDD has to jump again to face backwards so he doesn't have to land with a 19 frames of landing lag barely safe on hit Forward-Aerial is a bit problematic and makes his gameplan linear, especially if you just play runaway against DDD.

DDD is good at ledge but the fact that attack getup can attack gordo which can also hit DDD (sometimes twice) does mean that playing patiently at ledge does mean that gordo ledge traps do have some fundamental flaws. Also half of the recoveries in the game just invalidate gordo ledge traps as long as the recovery hitbox hits above ledge (Espeically if the hitbox is decently big like Ike's or Chrom's) which generally means that DDD has to either time the trap perfectly or have to go for a weaker forward-tilt 2 frame with the final hitbox or he has to commit with Down-B to hit below ledges as his only real form of killing without ledge trapping when it comes to his ledge game (Armor + hitting below ledge + killing does help though). King DDD doesn't really have an advantage state that is really anything bonkers unlike half of the cast and is generally a bit weaker when compared to most heavies and his late game despite his great survivability is often DDD having to fish for raw kill moves like Back-Air whilst having no kill throws. King DDD himself doesn't really have a good disadvantage at all due to his big hitbox + fast fall speed combination and the fact that he can't really deal with being the one at ledge even with sharking Up-Air.

DDD honestly lacks a reliable gameplan at the end of the day which gives him a problematic neutral and makes him as a character too inconsistent., His matchups against most of the cast (except he does sort of have a niche against Inkling and most heavies) tends to be pretty unfavorable due to most characters either being swordfighters whomst has better frame data and mobility and generally a better advantage state, rushdown characters that can just obliterate DDD for just breathing with his fat booty cheeks while DDD can't really do much outside of walling with forward-tilts, or characters that outcamp DDD easily, or just characters that are too explosive for DDD to handle. So honestly I don't really see DDD really doing much after people start learning the matchup unless Big D or Peli does something real special and I sort of see him dropping out of the meta. He's probably a contender for bottom 10 but feel free to discuss.

Eh I kinda feel like you're selling d3 short. I'm also not really sure why you're going for ledge traps against Chrom when you can just punish his recovery with jet hammer. He does struggle with getting camped I'll agree with that but everything else is just overblown. Also I'm almost certain that get up attack is one of the worst options to pick. Also considering that d3 angles the gordo determines the spacing it'd be silly to lock yourself into one option. But hey what do I know.

 

[N8than]

On your first point; even if you dismiss Armada's general opinion on Ness, he's not the only player who believes the MU leans at a disadvantage. BestNess felt the MU was a -1.

I still disagree with you. It doesn't matter in the long run because Inkling's probably going to get nerfed hard in the next patch or any one of the future patches.

 

[KakuCP9]

*Vergil voice* Foolishness. Why are you banking on a future that hasn't happened? How can you attain power if you don't live in the now?

 

[FruitLoop]

Eh I kinda feel like you're selling d3 short. I'm also not really sure why you're going for ledge traps against Chrom when you can just punish his recovery with jet hammer. He does struggle with getting camped I'll agree with that but everything else is just overblown. Also I'm almost certain that get up attack is one of the worst options to pick. Also considering that d3 angles the gordo determines the spacing it'd be silly to lock yourself into one option. But hey what do I know.

Yea ik that you aren't supposed to ledge trap half of the recoveries in the game with gordo. But that's sort of my point as his main strength is actually invalidated by half of the cast. Attack Getup has great I-Frames despite its endlag and its more of the fact that gordo can hit DDD. You obviously need to mixup your ledge options but many chars can just challenge gordo ledge traps by just jumping and buffering a projectile or quick aerial or through regrabbing the recovery. Also using Down-B is still pretty niche even against chrom due to recovery timing mixups and the high endlag means whiffing the move can give the opponent a free way to reset neutral. DDD does have a good offstage game but his lackluster aerial frame data and poor air speed makes it hard to really cover the opponent's offstage option unless you go for an airdodge read or if its vs chars with generally quite easy to gimp recoveries. DDD does have strengths, but the fact that his main gameplan and strengths gets invalidated by most of the cast, especially high/top tiers alongside having polarizing weaknesses generally means that DDD can't really work all too well as an individual character in tournaments.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I still disagree with you. It doesn't matter in the long run because Inkling's probably going to get nerfed hard in the next patch or any one of the future patches.

Should we not base stuff how they are now?
Otherwise what's the point. I can then say that Zelda will have a +3 against Inkling (will never ever happen but maybe in Patch 7.0.0.).
But speaking of her, Inkling isn't really "clearly" winning this MU. I rather agree with Cosmos' MU chart. She has a disadvantage but not as strong as Armada thinks. Also Armada's reasoning is really weak. Saying that the Phantom doesn't work against the roller is only one small part of the MU

 

[NotLiquid]

I still disagree with you. It doesn't matter in the long run because Inkling's probably going to get nerfed hard in the next patch or any one of the future patches.

Bro how defeatist do you sound having to move from "I don't think the character is good in this MU" to "eh whatever they'll get patched anyway".

We aren't talking about the future, we're talking about now - but even if we were, it's weak as hell to expect a make-believe patch to make your case for you. It's also silly to anticipate a hard nerf to a character who hasn't won that many major tournaments, nor is that abundant on Elite Smash. She's arguably really well balanced when you consider how many blindspots she actually has relative to the rest of the cast (sub-par NAir, average throws, only one good tilt, has some of the most unsafe smash attacks in a game where at least half of the cast including top tiers have safe ones). They already nerfed her most controversial move and actually buffed her in the launch patch. Plus we know by Sakurai's own admission that the balancing team aren't going to make reactive adjustments the same way they gauged online feedback when balancing Smash 4, so who knows what the hell will happen to her or any of the existing characters.

 

[Vistra31]

So I played Mewtwo a bit and if you throw out attacks most of them just work. You don't even need his projectile. Just throw out dash attack, fair, dair, nair, ftilt and f-smash and your good. Oh yeah and always edge guard because you have no excuse.

 

[Crooked Crow]

So I played Mewtwo a bit and if you throw out attacks most of them just work. You don't even need his projectile. Just throw out dash attack, fair, dair, nair, ftilt and f-smash and your good. Oh yeah and always edge guard because you have no excuse.

I thought Shadow Ball was his bread and butter that tied everything else together? He has a large hurtbox, although I'm not sure what his frame data is like, I don't play him. This just feels... incorrect though.

 

[Rizen]

I fought again yesterday. He really does get shutdown by YL. So I tried fighting him as K.Rool. DDD actually has a pretty decent midrange game between hammer things like Ftilt, suction and gordos. He also lives forever; the match was like 2 rubber beach balls bouncing off each other. I can see how DDD has some tools vs much of the cast although they seem outclassed by other characters' versions. I'd rather have Link's boomerang or Wolf's blaster than have to be crafty and micromanage gordos. I still think DDD's one of the weaker characters but my (low) opinion of him has improved.

I thought Shadow Ball was his bread and butter that tied everything else together? He has a large hurtbox, although I'm not sure what his frame data is like, I don't play him. This just feels... incorrect though.

has swordsman frame data which is fitting because his big disjointed tail (sarcasm).

 

[FruitLoop]

I fought again yesterday. He really does get shutdown by YL. So I tried fighting him as K.Rool. DDD actually has a pretty decent midrange game between hammer things like Ftilt, suction and gordos. He also lives forever; the match was like 2 rubber beach balls bouncing off each other. I can see how DDD has some tools vs much of the cast although they seem outclassed by other characters' versions. I'd rather have Link's boomerang or Wolf's blaster than have to be crafty and micromanage gordos. I still think DDD's one of the weaker characters but my (low) opinion of him has improved.

has swordsman frame data which is fitting because his big disjointed tail (sarcasm).

imo I think Young Link is one of DDD's better high tier matchups despite his stupid zoning game and great advantage state due to the fact that young link simply cant kill him until 230. But it's more of DDD taking twice as much damage to the face while having 50% more survivability. I mostly have an issue with him in even mid-range mostly just due to the fact that since runaway and camping is such an exploitable strategy against DDD. He often has to run up f-tilt or up-tilt with gordo and inhale being a bit too slow to really be reliable in midrange unless you want to B Reverse inhale through mixing up landings so it can hit through shields. He's not completely awful but I'd say a contender for bottom 10 right above K Rool makes sense.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well while people in this thread are keep labeling Dedede as "bad", Dedede players continue to come at large numbers and achieve some notable successes across the globe. The big notable ones are Big D, Zaki, and Peli. There is also currently an incentive for Zaki and other Japanese players (the others being Shuton, Zackray, T, and Tea) to come to Prime Saga, so maybe Zaki can give us another solid performance in the US.

Then again, I am pretty optimistic with the character right now. He is an example of a character that is going really well despite almost everyone pouring negative opinions on him.

Speaking of which, one more week until Prime Saga, so any last minute predictions/hopes for that tournament?

 

[KakuCP9]

Hoping a Samus player can make a breakout and show people that she's low-key great.
Maybe even break the curse?

 

[Smartz]

I'm hoping to see a Ness come out and show off. I really think he has the possibly to be one of the best characters in the game but it would take a LOT of knowledge and a consistent ability to set up PSI Magnet confirms.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Hoping a Samus player can make a breakout and show people that she's low-key great.
Maybe even break the curse?

Samus is probably the best she's ever been with our new Charge Shot shenanigans.

She's still middle tier at best.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

's effectively a short sword character but with the mobility and frame data of a quick critter. Add some good range attacks and an ink multiplier and you've got a top tier. I'm surprised we don't see more of them.
I've only played bad Inklings but it makes sense in theory that they slightly beat YL.

It's interesting you can magnet splat bombs considering they're ink.

I think maybe is because the strong tools they have aren't things that players want or aren't as easy like other top tier characters like wolf, pichu and lucina, inkling has some trouble sealing stocks fast moreso if you are an average player so most of them start panicking and ends tunnel vision to roller that can be predictable, compared to other top tiers that at some point most of their moves can kill if they connect, so yea frustration is the main point

 

[meleebrawler]

Well while people in this thread are keep labeling Dedede as "bad", Dedede players continue to come at large numbers and achieve some notable successes across the globe. The big notable ones are Big D, Zaki, and Peli. There is also currently an incentive for Zaki and other Japanese players (the others being Shuton, Zackray, T, and Tea) to come to Prime Saga, so maybe Zaki can give us another solid performance in the US.

Then again, I am pretty optimistic with the character right now. He is an example of a character that is going really well despite almost everyone pouring negative opinions on him.

Speaking of which, one more week until Prime Saga, so any last minute predictions/hopes for that tournament?

It feels like Dedede is an adjusted K. Rool, trading armour for multiple jumps and move startup for large disjoints. He benefits a lot from system changes (doesn't have to use a laggy dash attack out of dash, directional airdodges give him a stronger mixup in the air, and of course landing lag), fixes to previous blind spots in his moveset (the weak fair and usmash). He's still weak to strong camping (though they have to be smarter about it with the new Inhale), but he can handle rushdown surprisingly well, especially if they don't have notable disjoints of their own.

Samus is probably the best she's ever been with our new Charge Shot shenanigans.

She's still middle tier at best.

Doesn't that make still the best iteration with that one being high-mid?