• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    585

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691

Very bad quality, but it showcases my overall ability as a Diddy Kong main.
Is diddy's dash attack good? you seem to use it a lot.

As for the sheik stuff sheik is fine> If she gets more damage she'll prob end up the best character in the game. So they would need to do something about her moveset before just arbitrarily buffing her damage. For instance if you took some kill power away from pichu he'd be a lot less threatening of character.

Also as far as diddy is concered his dtilt fair uair bair and utilt don't seem to be as good as they were in the previous game. I could be wrong about this but these moves seem a fair bit worse than in sm4sh. So i dont htink its right to say diddy is doing the same thing he did in sm4sh. Also diddy had a ridiculous OoS game when he had a banana in hand i dont believe the same gme be said for this game.


Also **** yoshi.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
YL has a good MU vs :ultyoshi: so I might be underrating him a bit. Yoshi is getting results so I can see him in high tier but he feels underwhelming compared to Wario. I had him in upper mid tier but maybe that's a bit low. He has good stats but struggles to kill. Yoshi's gameplan just doesn't impress me.
 
Last edited:

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,933

Very bad quality, but it showcases my overall ability as a Diddy Kong main.
Thanks for posting this.

I don't think that any conclusions you draw at this level would be an accurate reflection of close-quarters reactive gampelay at a tournament level, but clearly the solution is to help you get better :) Education and knowledge dissemination are more important than discussing whether Sheik is low or high tier anyway.

You give your opponent a lot of space to maneuver; most of your movement seems imprecise, sometimes aimless. I don't see any empty hop feints, tomahawks, foxtrot dances, or walk-narrowly-out-of-spacing situations. Whenever you're in an uncomfortable position, you seem to roll to reposition, instead of actually using your movement options or spacing attacks. Your opponent in the video seems completely clueless about how to approach the matchup and isn't putting any pressure on you, so you're not seeing the result of these weaknesses. Against anyone who cornered you, pressured you, punished your mistakes, and reacted to your burst options, I think your gameplan would fall apart.

In general, you want to try to feel comfortable staying close to your opponent and reacting to what your opponent does. I don't know about the Diddy vs. Greninja matchup, but Greninja has difficulty up close and should be using his mobility to put distance between you. As the Diddy player, you should be looking to close that gap and then base your gameplan around conditioning dash attacks into your shield (or whiff punishing with banana from a distance just shy of midrange).

Let's look at some specific situations throughout the video.

At the start of the match your opponent is shielding from halfway across the stage for no reason; you shield also and then roll back, giving up stage control. Instead of this, you should see that your opponent is playing passively and seize control of the center by dashing in and starting to set up your zone in the middle. This gives you more of the stage to work with.

At :20 you roll away from your opponent and then try to close the distance between you and Greninja with dash attacks. Diddy's dash attack is alright, but Greninja's is better; in addition, Greninja has shuriken, so what you should have done here is to try to bait an option and respond instead. The Greninja player is fortunately bad and is shielding for no reason in situations where he should also be using his mobility. Since he was shielding so much, you could have pressured him by threatening the dash grab at midrange, and calling out the roll if he rolled behind you in response, as he likely would have. If you don't feel confident calling out rolls, then you could jump, and last-frame-b-air the moment that he rolls (this requires precise spacing); n-air should also work fine if you're comfortable with the distance covered by Greninja's roll.

At :32 you throw out a bunch of rolls because you're not certain of your positioning; there were so many good options for you here, and rolling wasn't effective because the Greninja wasn't jumping at all and so he wasn't committed to moving in a particular direction. In fact, he was shielding again, so you could have just walked or dash danced in front of his shield and waited for an option for him. It was clear by this point that he wasn't ready to punish you with his own dash attack.

The recovery at :44 seemed completely unnecessary; the Greninja wasn't even trying to pressure you off the level. He rolled _away_ from the ledge long before your barrels boosted. You could easily have continued charging and recovered safely to the ledge; another Greninja would have cleanly f-smashed you for your play or even better gotten a short string into a kill confirm at this percent.

At :46 you retreat to the far corner of the stage, giving up all stage control to pull a banana (a losing prospect in this situation), and then you roll behind the Greninja to down-smash, calling out a roll. But your spacing for down-smash wasn't even right so even if he had rolled toward you it's unlikely that he would have gotten hit. Roll -> down-smash looks appealing but there's actually a fine art to using it, and it usually involves pressuring your opponent in the corner. In this situation, however, you were the one in the corner.

At :50 you're in advantage state but you sacrifice all advantageous momentum and run away from the Greninja recovering again to pull a banana. You pull the banana _in_ the Greninja's direction so he could easily have come in underneath you and punished you for this, taking your banana and possibly your stock. For some reason, the Greninja decides to shield, so you don't feel the weight of your mistake.

At 1:05 you repeat a pattern of side-b overhead into land into banana toss into dash to pick up the missed banana. This is likely a habit from smash 4, but it's not effective at all; you're putting yourself above a character known for deadly vortexes, and for what reward? The same mixup can be achieved without ever going behind Greninja. The banana itself creates the pressure that you're looking for. Greninja is so fast that (if the Greninja player were actually using his mobility) you wouldn't be able to end up behind him just using Monkey Flip from full hop height--this positioning gives the Greninja player too much time to react to you. The reason you hit with the side-b at 1:09 is because the Greninja is trying to punish your side-b by meeting you head on instead of safely from below.

At 1:16 you stand completely in place and fire peanuts without regard for where your opponent is; the act of firing peanuts forces the Greninja to take a certain path to get to you, but instead of taking advantage of that path, you decide to roll back again, forfeiting stage control and causing your zoning game to have achieved nothing.

At 1:21 I don't even understand why you'd banana here facing away, but more importantly I don't understand how this Greninja ran into that banana. It was like he looked away from the screen or suddenly acquired the reaction time of an onion.

The next almost entire stock of the match all you're doing is using burst movement--up-b, dash attack, roll, side-b. You don't even jump at all; some tomahawks would have totally enabled you to grab Greninja through that shielding habit and also taken advantage of his complete lack of positioning.

At 1:49 the Greninja is offstage and you're still standing on the far side of the stage as though you don't have any stage control.

At 1:53 you finally take advantage of the zoning game and banana to f-smash his untimely airdodge; this is a good play.

For the rest of the game you continue using un-nuanced burst movement. It ends up working because your opponent is shielding with a character who doesn't have good out of shield options (and that too is doing so from half a stage length away) and trying to aggressively dash attack your burst movement options with a character built to bait and punish.

I have no idea why he was trying to Substitute your peanuts instead of using his mobility to get back on the stage. Either that player doesn't play smash much, doesn't play Greninja much, or was trolling. But regardless of the other player, you can see even from this short video where you can start to optimize your movement. Get rid of excess. Don't dash when walking suffices. Firmly but cautiously take stage control when you can. Hold your advantage and wait for your opponent to act instead of dash attacking and hoping that it hits. These things will improve your gameplay immensely.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
The first 2 games here have rare high level Sheik footage. I can see how Sheik seems good yet has pitiful reward. Charlie switches to Fox game 3. Unfortunately for Sheik, characters like Fox and Pichu have great neutrals and reward.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Last weekend Yoshi won 4 regionals and Suarez and Raptor got 9th at Collision.
Character busted? :eyes:
:ultyoshi: seems pretty good in my opinion. Not quite top tier, but it could be a possibility for him in the future if he continues to get results and remains relatively untouched by game updates. He's fast, has decent range on some attacks, good aerials, good edgeguarding, and feels pretty well-rounded to me, outside of his awkward (and not that great) recovery along with his lack of options while he is being juggled.
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Yoshi’s air drift helps him escape juggles, plus he has frame 3 Nair and a stall-then-fall down B which launches upward and thus is potentially devastating to jugglers attempting to Uair him off the top. If he has a double jump available, it’s huge + armoured. He seems well-equipped to escape juggling to me.

His biggest weaknesses traditionally are poor options against shield and the other weaknesses that go with having a semi-tether slow grab. These weaknesses are mitigated in Ultimate’s engine though due to weaker shields. The movement buffs to Yoshi allow him to manoeuvre around shields more effectively than in previous games, pressure shields more safely and potentially nab more shielding opponents with neutral B. Also, Yoshi’s own Nair OoS is one of the single best OoS options in a game where such options are at a serious premium.

Yoshi could be a real sleeper pick IMO. Now that I think about it, Yoshi to me is probably what Pac-Man is to Shaya Shaya .
 
Last edited:

JB333

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
163
I really think highly of :ultyoshi: in this game. He got some ridiculous buffs to both his air and ground speed, most of his attacks (especially his grounded moves) come out quicker, and his b-air is much more reliable. Oh and the fact that his eggs bounce now is honestly a pretty big deal as you can use it to keep your opponent in shield in a game where shielding is not a great defensive option. I’d say the only thing really holding him back is his lackluster recovery, but that’s always been a problem for him. Imo, he’s a solid high tier rn that could potentially sneak into top tier in the future
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,681
Hmm :ultzss::ultyoshi::ultpacman: seem to now be characters people are paying attention to after getting some impressive results over the past little while.
These characters were slept on. But players like Marss for ZSS and Sinji for Pac are showing what they are capable of..
It shows that in some cases that you cannot just dismiss or write characters off because they seem "weaker" than in Smash 4 or that their strength are not as obviously noticable as top-tiers.
Then again maby people were saying Fox was going to suck at the beggining of Ulitimate, so that should tell you something lol

They seem to have high-tier potential for sure at the very least. Depending on what happenes the next big balance patch they may be able to climb up higher
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
Can someone 'splain to me why it's good for the game for so many smash attacks to be safe on shield and recover so fast? This has been a thing since smash 4 that has really annoyed me. Oh you blocked my fsmash and tried to punish me with your 4 frame oos option? Nah son I spotdodged out and now you gonna eat ANOTHER FSMASH. It's not even just the fast recovery, they recover faster than they appear to which makes it hard to tell visually if you can.

I liked them better as high commitment callouts, now people throw them out all the time.

I don't remember past games being this way. Generally blocking a smash attack guaranteed at least a tilt (with few exceptions like gaw dsmash or MK dsmash or whatever)
 
Last edited:

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,240
Location
Sweden
Can someone 'splain to me why it's good for the game for so many smash attacks to be safe on shield and recover so fast?
This makes shielding less of a powerful option and instead encouraging movement, spotdodges, rolls, parries, and aggressive play. This might be a good thing. Shielding in Smash 4 was far too strong and made it so defensive playstyles were stronger than they should've been, and it likely contributed to the feeling that Smash 4 was a much more defensive game than Melee.

If you avoid the f-smash then you should be able to punish it, but if you don't avoid it and get hit in shield, then yeah, do you really deserve to punish it? Shielding isn't that hard.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
This makes shielding less of a powerful option and instead encouraging movement, spotdodges, rolls, parries, and aggressive play. This might be a good thing. Shielding in Smash 4 was far too strong and made it so defensive playstyles were stronger than they should've been, and it likely contributed to the feeling that Smash 4 was a much more defensive game than Melee.

If you avoid the f-smash then you should be able to punish it, but if you don't avoid it and get hit in shield, then yeah, do you really deserve to punish it? Shielding isn't that hard.
I mean Imo tilts and aerials should be generally safe but smashes should be generally unsafe and slower to recover. It's pretty tough to even whiff punish some of the smash attacks on this game. Atm they're often just slower tilt attacks that hit harder. They don't really have a niche as big slower kill moves anymore, they're just fast safeish kill moves instead.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,203
This video from good'o BSD goes into more detail about the recently discovered difference in Peach/Daisy's turnips.



In other words:
:ultpeach: Turnips are better for edgeguarding and low percent combos. She has a smaller horizontal hurtbox.
:ultdaisy: Turnips are better for kill confirms and mid percent combos. She has a smaller vertical hurtbox.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
This video from good'o BSD goes into more detail about the recently discovered difference in Peach/Daisy's turnips.



In other words:
:ultpeach: Turnips are better for edgeguarding and low percent combos. She has a smaller horizontal hurtbox.
:ultdaisy: Turnips are better for kill confirms and mid percent combos. She has a smaller vertical hurtbox.
That video thumbnail looks like a doll from uncanny valley. Good info though.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,158
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
This makes shielding less of a powerful option and instead encouraging movement, spotdodges, rolls, parries, and aggressive play. This might be a good thing. Shielding in Smash 4 was far too strong and made it so defensive playstyles were stronger than they should've been, and it likely contributed to the feeling that Smash 4 was a much more defensive game than Melee.

If you avoid the f-smash then you should be able to punish it, but if you don't avoid it and get hit in shield, then yeah, do you really deserve to punish it? Shielding isn't that hard.
It could also be an incentive to parry? The way the mechanic works seems to encourage it. Blocking a smash may only get you a jab punish at best, but parrying lets you counter with an equal or greater smash.

There's a lot of different kinds of smashes with varying degrees of punishability. Generally speaking, powerful smashes with lots of coverage or reach tend to be the most punishable. The opposite is stuff like Wolf fsmash or Mewtwo dsmash: heavy on startup and not much in the way of reach, but very much safe on shields.
 
Last edited:

PURGE THEM LIKE THE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
99
Can someone 'splain to me why it's good for the game for so many smash attacks to be safe on shield and recover so fast? This has been a thing since smash 4 that has really annoyed me. Oh you blocked my fsmash and tried to punish me with your 4 frame oos option? Nah son I spotdodged out and now you gonna eat ANOTHER FSMASH. It's not even just the fast recovery, they recover faster than they appear to which makes it hard to tell visually if you can.

I liked them better as high commitment callouts, now people throw them out all the time.

I don't remember past games being this way. Generally blocking a smash attack guaranteed at least a tilt (with few exceptions like gaw dsmash or MK dsmash or whatever)
If you blocked a move you know is safe on shield, why would you try to punish it? You already know you'll fail. I don't see what the issue is.

Almost every smash attack that is safe on shield has ample startup anyway. You should be able to stuff them out with faster moves. For example, meta knight's fsmash hits frame 24. Off the top of my head one that doesn't come out extra late is olimar's up smash (frame 12), and that one gets beaten out by every hitbox.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,340
On a completely unrelated topic, with 3.0 on the way soon, I really wonder whether or not they're going to do anything about Plant's landing lag on aerials.

That seems to be the most damning thing about the character right now, and it doesn't seem that the team had accounted for how its kit doesn't really gel into itself. A bait-and-punish character who is easily baited themselves is a pretty shoddy formula for a character.

It kinda stinks because several of Plants' moves and buttons are actually extremely solid, its jab is good, it has a two-hit F-tilt, neutral B is an interesting frame and ledge trap tool, DTilt can lead into some things, NAir is an extremely potent OoS option, it has two kill throws and one of the fastest grabs in the game, etc. But all of that is kinda undone by the fact that if Plant is forced back into the air, its toast. There's so little that's safe on shield that you can easily shield grab it in a game where shield grabs are universally considered worse.

Fix the character's aerials and you're looking at a solid mid tier heavy with counterpick potential, honestly.
 
Last edited:

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,158
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
On a completely unrelated topic, with 3.0 on the way soon, I really wonder whether or not they're going to do anything about Plant's landing lag on aerials.

That seems to be the most damning thing about the character right now, and it doesn't seem that the team had accounted for how its kit doesn't really gel into itself. A bait-and-punish character who is easily baited themselves is a pretty shoddy formula for a character.

It kinda stinks because Plant's buttons are actually extremely solid, its jab is good, it has a two-hit F-tilt, neutral B is an interesting frame and ledge trap tool, DTilt can lead into some things, NAir is an extremely potent OoS option, etc. But all of that is kinda undone by the fact that if Plant is forced back into the air, its toast.

Fix the character's aerials and you're looking at a solid mid tier heavy with counterpick potential, honestly.
But to be fair, other than an ordinary boxer what else would you expect to be clumsy and awkward in the air than a being that spends most of it's life rooted to the ground? A straightforward projectile like a fireball would let it capitalize on it's strong anti-air game more.
 

Rocketjay8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
370
On a completely unrelated topic, with 3.0 on the way soon, I really wonder whether or not they're going to do anything about Plant's landing lag on aerials.

That seems to be the most damning thing about the character right now, and it doesn't seem that the team had accounted for how its kit doesn't really gel into itself. A bait-and-punish character who is easily baited themselves is a pretty shoddy formula for a character.

It kinda stinks because several of Plants' moves and buttons are actually extremely solid, its jab is good, it has a two-hit F-tilt, neutral B is an interesting frame and ledge trap tool, DTilt can lead into some things, NAir is an extremely potent OoS option, it has two kill throws and one of the fastest grabs in the game, etc. But all of that is kinda undone by the fact that if Plant is forced back into the air, its toast. There's so little that's safe on shield that you can easily shield grab it in a game where shield grabs are universally considered worse.

Fix the character's aerials and you're looking at a solid mid tier heavy with counterpick potential, honestly.
I would fix his fair and upair hitboxs too. They have deceptively terrible hitboxes.
 
Last edited:

Phoenix_is_OK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
103
I'd like to apoligize for starting the Sheik flame war that led to several paragraphs and someone being called a Reddit noob. I definitely overstepped some lines by calling her potential bottom 5, but I don't believe the character has much competitive potential in the sense that she is simply an inferior version of 5 other characters with some tricks of her own. She isn't an easy character to pick up and play, and once you get really technical with her you lose most of the reward you get from dumping that skill into, say, Greninja. She's really, really, really fast, and that will always be her defining attribute, but I don't think she is fast enough in relation to the rest of the cast. Most characters received big neutral buffs, provided they weren't named Bayonetta, and the transition has made her go from the safest character in the game by a landslide to the safest character in the game by an amount that isn't even comparable.

Her top tier days are long gone, and I'd be very shocked to see any results, but as I say that I feel that she has some very specific good matchups. But as a whole, in relation to the entire cast, when I look at Sheik vs literally anyone, I feel as if Sheik is in an endless cycle of losing matchups.

But that is just my two cents and for all I know in a week she will be number one.
 

JayEmDubya

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 2, 2015
Messages
3
On a completely unrelated topic, with 3.0 on the way soon, I really wonder whether or not they're going to do anything about Plant's landing lag on aerials.

That seems to be the most damning thing about the character right now, and it doesn't seem that the team had accounted for how its kit doesn't really gel into itself. A bait-and-punish character who is easily baited themselves is a pretty shoddy formula for a character.

It kinda stinks because several of Plants' moves and buttons are actually extremely solid, its jab is good, it has a two-hit F-tilt, neutral B is an interesting frame and ledge trap tool, DTilt can lead into some things, NAir is an extremely potent OoS option, it has two kill throws and one of the fastest grabs in the game, etc. But all of that is kinda undone by the fact that if Plant is forced back into the air, its toast. There's so little that's safe on shield that you can easily shield grab it in a game where shield grabs are universally considered worse.

Fix the character's aerials and you're looking at a solid mid tier heavy with counterpick potential, honestly.
That would be nice, but it would also be great if Pirahna Plant has more range on his grounded moves.

He's so close to having a god tier ground game, with great frame data on his jab and tilts, a good grab with two kill throws, a fantastic up smash with super armor that kills, another good, but slow smash attack in Fsmash, etc... However, he gets outranged by most of the cast due to his Wii Fit Trainer tier hitboxes, which combined with his mediocre aerials, holds back his neutral significantly. (Which is weird, because Pirahna Plant is best known in Mario games for stretching out and attacking people from far away.) If they added more range and disjoints to moves like jab and ftilt, that would go a long way to fixing his neutral.
 

Wunderwaft

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
3,463
I feel like Ridley is a character that's been underrated. Yes, his weight is a problem. But the rest of his kit is pretty useful. His aerials are good. His smash attacks are good. And he has excellent edgeguarding, he can risk going deep out of stage since he has multiple jumps. I just hope the next patch makes him heavier, it's the only thing about him that I consider really bad.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
i think the dev team wants Pirahna Plant to play a ground game, i don't see buff to this aerials maybe up-air hitbox,what i can see is more buff to side-B and Down-B, because frankly along with Neutral-B they are the reason Pirahna Plant can play a good bait and punish game, the problem is that she can only play that way by a few moments then go to an ankward state in that she is pressured(this is mitigated by fast ground moves, super armor and weight) or need to go for the opponent and this is when she falls out, she can take damage and she can trade but in the long run she will lost because she can't kill you unless you aproach her and all her kill options aside from up-smash are telegraphed.
 

MG_3989

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,130
Location
New Jersey
Switch FC
SW-8397-3391-6411
So I’ve been thinking about this, who do you guys think is going to end up being the best true rushdown character in the game? I’m not talking now, I think that it’s obviously Pichu at this point but I’m talking in the future. It seems like there aren’t many true rushdown characters in the game and the meta seems to be dominated by midrange heavy characters. Sure there are viable characters with very good combo games and advantage states like :ultness::ultpeach::ultwario::ultpikachu::ultshulk::ultyounglink::ultyoshi: :ultinkling::ultwolf::ultolimar:who are capable of rushing down and benefit from doing so at certain points but they usually don’t use it as the main facet of their game play (to varying degrees of course). All of these characters have either projectiles or other zoning tools along with a good to great midrange

You have :ultpichu::ultfox::ultzss::ultmario::ultgreninja::ultmarth::ultroy: who are truer rushdown characters but almost all of them rely on very good spacing to an extent (obviously spacing is always esstential at high level play) and not just one opening. I guess this got a little off topic but do you guys think midrange will stay king in this game with characters like :ultlucina::ultolimar::ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultinkling::ultwolf: making up the majority of top tier? Yes they all have great advantage states but while I think that may boost them a tier or so that isn’t the reason they’re top tier. These characters have the ability to consistently win neutral due to their midrange allowing them to take advantage of their advantage states. Basically how do you guys think rushdown as a playstyle will fare long term in this game? I don’t think Fox nor Pichu are going anywhere but it seems to be a minority playstyle
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Greninja is not a rushdown character. Haven’t we just been over this?

I don’t know what ZSS and Marth are doing in that “true rushdown” list either. Peach, Wario and Inkling can play rushdown better than a lot of characters listed, though none rely on it completely.

Ultimate is an aggressive game but I think true rushdown is rare. Pichu is best at it due to his raw frame data and reward, followed by Fox and probably Peach once she gets in (you could argue Fox is the best in the game at it overall due to his high speed and mobility). Even these characters need to exercise caution when pressuring and searching for openings. Despite being weaker than in the last couple of Smash entries, defensive options bar airdodge are still strong in Ultimate with a good number of characters having fast (f3-5) aerials or Up Bs out of shield to punish reckless rushing. Good spacing will mitigate these punishes in some, but not all cases depending on the attack ranges of the attacker and defender. Rolls still have good frame data when they’re not spammed and spotdodges are particularly good with the f5 attack cancel.

Perhaps more important than the defensive options themselves is Ultimate’s improved movement options. Through foxtrots and dash dancing comes a strong ability to weave in and out of opponent ranges, leading to bait and punish styles being very effective; this is how I see Wario, Wolf and Greninja most effectively played.
 
Last edited:

Jotun873

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
43
On a completely unrelated topic, with 3.0 on the way soon, I really wonder whether or not they're going to do anything about Plant's landing lag on aerials.

That seems to be the most damning thing about the character right now, and it doesn't seem that the team had accounted for how its kit doesn't really gel into itself. A bait-and-punish character who is easily baited themselves is a pretty shoddy formula for a character.

It kinda stinks because several of Plants' moves and buttons are actually extremely solid, its jab is good, it has a two-hit F-tilt, neutral B is an interesting frame and ledge trap tool, DTilt can lead into some things, NAir is an extremely potent OoS option, it has two kill throws and one of the fastest grabs in the game, etc. But all of that is kinda undone by the fact that if Plant is forced back into the air, its toast. There's so little that's safe on shield that you can easily shield grab it in a game where shield grabs are universally considered worse.

Fix the character's aerials and you're looking at a solid mid tier heavy with counterpick potential, honestly.
This definately feels like hoping little mac gets his aerials fixed.

The plant is definately designed to be good on the ground, problem is a bunch of his ground moves lack sufficient rewards or have no range.

Dtilt is an example of this, his Dtilt cant even get past his giant hurtbox people call a head making this thing get outranged by almost everything and even if you do hit it you dontt get any follow ups even if it seems like you should at least be able to Fair.

This is the exact reason his nair is so good, it not only has respectable range, it has follow ups when fast falled and protects that giant hurtbox of a head.

I dont see his air attacks getting buffed. I can frame data being adjusted, Knockback adjustments or just straight damage buffs but i doubt that we are going to get any buffs to his air game
 
Last edited:

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
Greninja is not a rushdown character. Haven’t we just been over this?

I don’t know what ZSS and Marth are doing in that “true rushdown” list either. Peach, Wario and Inkling can play rushdown better than a lot of characters listed, though none rely on it completely.

Ultimate is an aggressive game but I think true rushdown is rare. Pichu is best at it due to his raw frame data and reward, followed by Fox and probably Peach once she gets in (you could argue Fox is the best in the game at it overall due to his high speed and mobility). Even these characters need to exercise caution when pressuring and searching for openings. Despite being weaker than in the last couple of Smash entries, defensive options bar airdodge are still strong in Ultimate with a good number of characters having fast (f3-5) aerials or Up Bs out of shield to punish reckless rushing. Good spacing will mitigate these punishes in some, but not all cases depending on the attack ranges of the attacker and defender. Rolls still have good frame data when they’re not spammed and spotdodges are particularly good with the f5 attack cancel.

Perhaps more important than the defensive options themselves is Ultimate’s improved movement options. Through foxtrots and dash dancing comes a strong ability to weave in and out of opponent ranges, leading to bait and punish styles being very effective; this is how I see Wario, Wolf and Greninja most effectively played.
I don't really feel like rushdown is an appropriate term it can be for other games but it seems a little misplaced here.

I do find some characters to be more of the i like to press a bunch of buttons ness yoshi ylink and fox. Those are some button happy players from my experience.
 
Last edited:

Phoenix_is_OK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
103
The wait is killing me, but I feel like Nintendo just isn't going to buff Bayonetta anytime soon, which really sucks.

3.0.0 is prolly going to be much meatier than 2.0.0 was, where the most changes were pretty trivial aside from specific characters. I'm hoping that the lower tiers get some buffs, namely Kirby, the Mac, and Plant above all, but frankly I thought 2.0 was going to do the same so... Yeah.

Bayonetta currently has no competitive players so she ain't winning tournaments no more. No more Lima, Salem (never even played her), Tamim, Captain Zack (Daisy main now), Pink Fresh, etc.

The only one left is Geist and he is not having a good time. The character is dead.
 

Avokha

A+B smash tech is my baby <3
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
592
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
NNID
Avokha00
3DS FC
4914-3109-5720
So bayo seems to be running out of representation it seems, and high level players have tried with her, so it's not for lack of faith in the character in the end.

Which actually leaves me wondering, what are all the characters that currently have no presence in the current meta, i.e. no representation, and why do you think these characters are in this state?
 

Fastblade5035

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
3,078
NNID
gnic2322
3DS FC
0645-6032-2207
Which actually leaves me wondering, what are all the characters that currently have no presence in the current meta, i.e. no representation, and why do you think these characters are in this state?
Perfect time for me to bounce back in here and talk about my New Main .

:ultgunner:
Mii Gunner is on a whole other level of no representation. With Ultimate results as a whole, Gunner is only above Kirby, Mii Brawler, Ice Climbers, and Pirahna Plant. If you look at month 4 results so far, also scores dead last.
I don't think Mii Gunner is bad, even. That's not the problem here I don't think, at least not entirely.

1. Miis
Obviously Miis will probably always be niche or 'meme' picks, that's unfortunately just how things are. Their lack of solid identity, perceived status as blank slates, with low-effort recycled movesets, lends to a certain mentality that looks down on Miis and Mii mains in general. I'm surprised to personally still see so many people who find maining Miis to be a laughable prospect. This leads to...

2. The Crusade against Mii viability
For those who don't know, the biggest French Ult TO decided to arbitrarily restrict all Miis to their 1111 movesets. If you don't play Miis, let me explain the issue with this.

-Miis are designed to have specials mixed and matched. Mii Swordfighter can't even do the Tornado -> Hero Spin combo with 1111, and is stuck with a Counter and extremely telegraphed linear side special. I mean, Swordfighter isn't exactly making waves even with his gimmick combo, and without it, there's absolutely no reason to touch him over any Fire Emblem character. Move versatility and customization are what make Miis, Miis, just as much as swapping Pokemon makes Pokemon Trainer Pokemon Trainer.

-Restricting a pool of already small players. Clearly, there aren't many Mii mains. The results prove this, but now when a big scene restricts the options for a small niche group of players, it's constricting them and leaving even less who are willing to suck up their now neutered movesets and keep playing. If this mentality of restricting Miis spreads more, then Mii players will also diminish. At that point, it doesn't even MATTER if Miis are good or bad, if no one is playing them to find out.

3. The Meta doesn't favor zoners, much less a zoner who is niche, 'meme', and looked down upon for having multiple specials.
This is the only point directly related to the meta, which is actually kind of sad when thinking about why Miis have no presence. Anyway, while not all the top tiers are exactly rushdown, there is a notable lack of dedicated zoners placing well in the past couple months. Snake, Young Link, R.O.B., Link... not sure I'd call Palutena a zoner. Hell, all of these except maybe R.O.B. have aspects of them that shine by being defiantly anti-zoner. YL has a strong close range game with his speed and frame data. Link is notorious for his raw kill power and weight, Snake needs no explanation. Zoners like Duck Hunt, Villager, Samus, Toon Link, Wii Fit Trainer, Belmonts and yes, Gunner, have failed to leave a strong impact on the current meta. Pac-Man might be on the upswing, and Megaman is a weird character with regards to zoning but I suppose he counts too. Still, only a few zoners are maybe breaking out. Of course someone like Gunner wouldn't be at home in a meta dominated by Fox, Wolf, Lucina, and Pichu.

Not sure how to close this, really, but I do want to reaffirm that I don't think Gunner is bad. In fact, Gunner is pretty solid even. We have tons of ludicrous options, strong confirms, great projectiles, versatility, etc. Don't sleep on a Gunner if you run into one, because MU inexperience is legitimately a huge boon for us.
 

Dbap

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
12
Perfect time for me to bounce back in here and talk about my New Main .

:ultgunner:
Mii Gunner is on a whole other level of no representation. With Ultimate results as a whole, Gunner is only above Kirby, Mii Brawler, Ice Climbers, and Pirahna Plant. If you look at month 4 results so far, also scores dead last.
I don't think Mii Gunner is bad, even. That's not the problem here I don't think, at least not entirely.

1. Miis
Obviously Miis will probably always be niche or 'meme' picks, that's unfortunately just how things are. Their lack of solid identity, perceived status as blank slates, with low-effort recycled movesets, lends to a certain mentality that looks down on Miis and Mii mains in general. I'm surprised to personally still see so many people who find maining Miis to be a laughable prospect. This leads to...

2. The Crusade against Mii viability
For those who don't know, the biggest French Ult TO decided to arbitrarily restrict all Miis to their 1111 movesets. If you don't play Miis, let me explain the issue with this.

-Miis are designed to have specials mixed and matched. Mii Swordfighter can't even do the Tornado -> Hero Spin combo with 1111, and is stuck with a Counter and extremely telegraphed linear side special. I mean, Swordfighter isn't exactly making waves even with his gimmick combo, and without it, there's absolutely no reason to touch him over any Fire Emblem character. Move versatility and customization are what make Miis, Miis, just as much as swapping Pokemon makes Pokemon Trainer Pokemon Trainer.

-Restricting a pool of already small players. Clearly, there aren't many Mii mains. The results prove this, but now when a big scene restricts the options for a small niche group of players, it's constricting them and leaving even less who are willing to suck up their now neutered movesets and keep playing. If this mentality of restricting Miis spreads more, then Mii players will also diminish. At that point, it doesn't even MATTER if Miis are good or bad, if no one is playing them to find out.

3. The Meta doesn't favor zoners, much less a zoner who is niche, 'meme', and looked down upon for having multiple specials.
This is the only point directly related to the meta, which is actually kind of sad when thinking about why Miis have no presence. Anyway, while not all the top tiers are exactly rushdown, there is a notable lack of dedicated zoners placing well in the past couple months. Snake, Young Link, R.O.B., Link... not sure I'd call Palutena a zoner. Hell, all of these except maybe R.O.B. have aspects of them that shine by being defiantly anti-zoner. YL has a strong close range game with his speed and frame data. Link is notorious for his raw kill power and weight, Snake needs no explanation. Zoners like Duck Hunt, Villager, Samus, Toon Link, Wii Fit Trainer, Belmonts and yes, Gunner, have failed to leave a strong impact on the current meta. Pac-Man might be on the upswing, and Megaman is a weird character with regards to zoning but I suppose he counts too. Still, only a few zoners are maybe breaking out. Of course someone like Gunner wouldn't be at home in a meta dominated by Fox, Wolf, Lucina, and Pichu.

Not sure how to close this, really, but I do want to reaffirm that I don't think Gunner is bad. In fact, Gunner is pretty solid even. We have tons of ludicrous options, strong confirms, great projectiles, versatility, etc. Don't sleep on a Gunner if you run into one, because MU inexperience is legitimately a huge boon for us.
I completely agree that it’s stupid to ban the full movesets, but mii sword doesn’t rely on gale>herospin at all. He has many other kill confirms especially if you’re running 13XX or even 2XX3 for the shuri>downb confirm. He actually has so many options that the high level players are all using different up b choices. People just like hero spin because it’s easy to do and doesn’t require practice but that and a slightly better oos aren’t worth trash tier recovery imo.

And if you choose stone scabbard or even skyward you can use drag down dairs and offstage slow chaks for brutal gimps that aren’t even possible with the chad spin.

Also how are his moves recycled? I mean a few are but most are new just like any other swordie character. 1313 has no recycled moves and it’s what I run against non projectile spammers.

But yeah, forcing 1111 is still a garbage choice for TOs to make.
 

Fastblade5035

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
3,078
NNID
gnic2322
3DS FC
0645-6032-2207
Also how are his moves recycled? I mean a few are but most are new just like any other swordie character. 1313 has no recycled moves and it’s what I run against non projectile spammers.
I don't entirely agree but it's kind of impossible to deny Mii as a whole (which I intended so say, if I didn't; my apologies) use a lot of similar moves from others. I was trying to convey what others say about them, basically. In my experience this stems from the moves like Hero Spin, Charge Shot, Missiles, Vortex, Reflector, Counter, etc. making people think Miis are basic and recycled.
 
Last edited:

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
This game will go for a long time I don't see any big buffs to any character, almost fix 2 or 3 moves max, and some minimal character values altered, waiting for 3.0 to buff significantly low or midtiers is foolish, more with characters like little Mac and bayonneta that are very polarizing.
 
Last edited:

Justin Allen Goldschmidt

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
309
Personally, I expect only the most polarizing of options to ever get nerfed, not necessarily because they always win games, but because they kill variety and are boring to watch and play. I can only hope that characters like Ike get other things in exchange for losing something like infinite Nair confirms, but we'll see. I really do believe that the game balance changes will mostly be buffs down the line, though. If I end up being wrong in a year, then I'll take that 'L' like a champ, but so far the balance team seems to be paying decent attention to online at the very least, and I think the interactions they're having with Japanese competitive players will be a good thing in the long run.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
Here's some more :ultyounglink: MUs.

:ultpit::ultdarkpit: I had as slight advantage but am changing them to even. The Pits have some good tools against YL including a reflector, dash arms that armor through projectiles and attacks and better reach on certain sword moves. They're not outrageous and can only oppress YL so far and YL can combo them pretty hard when he gets going. It really is a matter of who plays better.
Even.

:ultchrom: has everything YL hates: a longer sword and good rushdown ability. He also gets good reward and combos from safe hits. Chrom's ridiculous he's a top tier imo. It's hard for YL to zone Chrom with his great speed and he wins up close. Chrom does better than Roy because he has to approach and it's harder for Roy to get close enough to land sweetspot hilt hits. YL's Dsmash is a great tool in this MU because it launches at a very low horizontal angle and exploits Chrom's poor recovery.
-1.

:ultlucario: is a weird MU. YL has better tools but rage Lucario's aura is extremely powerful. It's one of those matches where YL needs to zone hard but if Lucario outplays a little he can be devastating. Lucario has some tools against YL's zoning like aura sphere and counter so he isn't completely shutdown like some heavyweights. YL's trouble sealing stocks can be a big factor here.
+1.

:ultpichu: is an interesting MU. Pichu does Pichu things and can vortex hard but YL has really good tools to combat him. YL's F4 Nair is amazing and almost always trades with Pichu's aerials. This is one of the few MUs where YL wins trades. Dair beats most of Pichu's moves from above and covers YL as he descends. YL's sword has longer reach than Pichu in general. YL also forces Pichu to approach since electric jolts deal self damage.
It seems great for YL but Pichu has a top tier advantage state and can combo anyone hard. His reward is good enough that Pichu still does fairly well. Interestingly I think Pikachu is slightly harder for YL because his better range and lack of self damage allows him to dictate the pace better.
+1.

:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: is similar to the Pit MU. Samus has better reach on some attacks, can gimp, and has some tools to deal with YL's projectiles. YL zones better and combos harder. It feels like the better player wins.
Even.
 

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,657
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
So I’ve been thinking about this, who do you guys think is going to end up being the best true rushdown character in the game? I’m not talking now, I think that it’s obviously Pichu at this point but I’m talking in the future. It seems like there aren’t many true rushdown characters in the game and the meta seems to be dominated by midrange heavy characters. Sure there are viable characters with very good combo games and advantage states like :ultness::ultpeach::ultwario::ultpikachu::ultshulk::ultyounglink::ultyoshi::ultinkling::ultwolf::ultolimar:who are capable of rushing down and benefit from doing so at certain points but they usually don’t use it as the main facet of their game play (to varying degrees of course). All of these characters have either projectiles or other zoning tools along with a good to great midrange

You have :ultpichu::ultfox::ultzss::ultmario::ultgreninja::ultmarth::ultroy: who are truer rushdown characters but almost all of them rely on very good spacing to an extent (obviously spacing is always esstential at high level play) and not just one opening. I guess this got a little off topic but do you guys think midrange will stay king in this game with characters like :ultlucina::ultolimar::ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultinkling::ultwolf: making up the majority of top tier? Yes they all have great advantage states but while I think that may boost them a tier or so that isn’t the reason they’re top tier. These characters have the ability to consistently win neutral due to their midrange allowing them to take advantage of their advantage states. Basically how do you guys think rushdown as a playstyle will fare long term in this game? I don’t think Fox nor Pichu are going anywhere but it seems to be a minority playstyle
Greninja is not a rushdown character. Haven’t we just been over this?

I don’t know what ZSS and Marth are doing in that “true rushdown” list either. Peach, Wario and Inkling can play rushdown better than a lot of characters listed, though none rely on it completely.

Ultimate is an aggressive game but I think true rushdown is rare. Pichu is best at it due to his raw frame data and reward, followed by Fox and probably Peach once she gets in (you could argue Fox is the best in the game at it overall due to his high speed and mobility). Even these characters need to exercise caution when pressuring and searching for openings. Despite being weaker than in the last couple of Smash entries, defensive options bar airdodge are still strong in Ultimate with a good number of characters having fast (f3-5) aerials or Up Bs out of shield to punish reckless rushing. Good spacing will mitigate these punishes in some, but not all cases depending on the attack ranges of the attacker and defender. Rolls still have good frame data when they’re not spammed and spotdodges are particularly good with the f5 attack cancel.

Perhaps more important than the defensive options themselves is Ultimate’s improved movement options. Through foxtrots and dash dancing comes a strong ability to weave in and out of opponent ranges, leading to bait and punish styles being very effective; this is how I see Wario, Wolf and Greninja most effectively played.
I'd be willing to argue that the characters they intended to be rushdown characters never turned out that way, and characters that they may have intended for another playstyle are turning out to be much better at it.

IMO, any character with a projectile they can chase after is basically a rushdown character. Pichu probably fits this bill the best as you actually have a safe way of forcing defensive options and punishing them by running behind his thunder jolt. Olimar can be played as a rushdown really well and it's super annoying because he also can be campy. Fox is probably the only one they meant for rushdown that can actually do it fairly well. I honestly think ROB can play rushdown deceptively well, since he has 2 projectiles he can chase after.

Shulk can't really do it super well outside of his speed art. Wolf, Gren, all the sword characters MG_3989 MG_3989 posted, are better at poke/bait/punish than rushdown for the most part.

\2. The Crusade against Mii viability
For those who don't know, the biggest French Ult TO decided to arbitrarily restrict all Miis to their 1111 movesets. If you don't play Miis, let me explain the issue with this.
There are a lot of people that don't think Miis should even be in the game, and want do do what they can to restrict them. His reasoning is idiotic:

- The fact they can modulate their moveset depending on the opponent/character is judged unfair.

- Not every Mii players chose the same moveset, which makes adaptation hard.

- Custom Moves were limited in Smash 4, why is it a problem now?
Like that's the scrubbiest mindset I've ever seen from someone who hosts majors.
 

PURGE THEM LIKE THE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
99
I didn't pay much attention to the mii situation in sm4sh, but is there some reason why changing specials wouldn't just be treated the same as changing characters? Restricting their moveset seems very unnecessary.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,907
Location
Colorado
There's a thread here for ruleset preference discussion like mii customs.
https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-competitive-ruleset-discussion.464885/

At first I said :ultyounglink: isn't a good counterpick character but that might be wrong. Tweek's YL is doing well as a secondary and YL has good MUs vs several high or top tiers:
:ultyoshi::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpokemontrainer::ultzss:
as well as being hard for most super heavyweights. He does have several notable losses and probably isn't a top tier:
:ultfox::ultike:(theoretically :ultmarth::ultlucina:):ultness::ultchrom::ulttoonlink::ultwario:
and you have to invest a lot of time into him.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
199
Honestly there isn't nothing bad in characters being possible to have more that one playstyle, if a character can play campy or rushdown then that means that a player has more options to choose from this is good, another thing is that the majority of smash characters in all the smash games doesn't have only one playstyle, if you only watch tournament's because there is different characters in a screen then that is wack, not only that the most a character repeats in a top 8 is 2 or 3 with secondiaries, people playing different ways is good, now that viewers doesn't appreciate different types of playstyle is because the community only promotes and encourages one preferred playstyle, that isn't the game problem.
 

Justin Allen Goldschmidt

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
309
I didn't pay much attention to the mii situation in sm4sh, but is there some reason why changing specials wouldn't just be treated the same as changing characters? Restricting their moveset seems very unnecessary.
Yeah, honestly it feels a lot like banning Pokemon Trainer from switching, except the different movesets can't even be swapped until the next game and are therefore even more consistent and fair. Pokemon Trainer literally gets three interchangeable movesets at any given time.... so why exactly is anyone worried about Mii Fighters?
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
Yeah, honestly it feels a lot like banning Pokemon Trainer from switching, except the different movesets can't even be swapped until the next game and are therefore even more consistent and fair. Pokemon Trainer literally gets three interchangeable movesets at any given time.... so why exactly is anyone worried about Mii Fighters?
logic and rulesets have never been this community's strong suit. effectively bannong a bad character just seems mean to me. let these players play the characters they want.
if "hard to adapt"is seen as a valid excuse i want out of this community and will go play a different game. (MK 11 lookin' nice)

as for3.0 like every other bato player im looking for buffs. but not really sure how much the general community understands just how ****ed up she currently is.In yet another revalation it appears bayonetta hitboxes on her moves and her animations not fully match. notable the moves that most bayo players agree were rush nerfed (upair, jab, and fair to name few). picture in link.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Top Bottom