Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Y2Kay]

Not to discount the hard work of Smash 4 Greninja players, but this argument ignores how different Ultimate is. While those players certainly had a leg up on things, they still had to learn new matchups and changes like everyone else.

He's not an easy character, but the fact remains that there are Greninja placings after only 3 months of the game being out. That's a pretty big deal.

I get this, but your original post implies that Greninja can't be that hard to play if he's doing well this early on. I don't believe this to be the case. All the things that made Greninja difficult from smash 4 is still present in this iteration. Their surge in results is almost entirely due to Greninja just being a much better character. Especially when you consider how small the Greninja player-base is.

I will say this though. I think his difficulty has been largely overstated by people who don't play this character. The difficulty of Gren has more to do with the philosophy and approach behind his in game-plan, rather than just hard inputs. It definitely feels like many smash players who are intrigued by Greninja, but don't try him mostly do so because they have deceived themselves into believing they don't have the skills to play him.

 

[Lore]

I feel like there was a misunderstanding here, then. No worries.

I meant that I believe that the "difficulty factor" keeping certain characters from ever having tons of results is being overstated, if they have these results three months into the game. To me, it's pretty easy to believe that we will see even more results from difficult characters as time goes on.

Greninja is still difficult, but if players are having results 3 months into the game, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the difficulty isn't going to keep players from getting results. This is especially true for pros with years and years of experience with fundamentals, speeding up their transition to a new character if they chose to main swap to a difficult one.

 

[NotLiquid]

On the topic of low-tier candidates, ZeRo is doing yet another tier list and as expected he's going with the drip-feed approach yet again, so starting off with, appropriately enough to the discussion, the low tiers.

He feels isn't just the worst character in the game, but a character so bad that he deserves his own tier. A glass cannon without the "cannon" part where it doesn't matter how good you become with the character, you'll not be able to reconcile how at a design level, he is fundamentally broken. I like the point he brings up about most people speculating Little Mac would possibly become one of the best characters in the game when off the back of Ultimate's engine changes with cancelling dashes with tilts/attacks, it begs the question how the character would fare if he wasn't complete booty butt cheeks.

Outside of that, his low tier consists of, and is ranked (from best to worst)
: The "best" low-tier character, due to having some great out-of-shield options, some of the best Smash attacks in the game, decent edgeguarding and a meme-worthy NAir. He's nonetheless placed in low-tier because despite the strengths he's held back by the fact not being a heavyweight means he has only the disadvantages of being a large character (combo food, easy to gimp), as well as having a pitiful recovery. Would be considered a "mid-tier character" if there was any room for optimizing his play but considering his basic kit, ZeRo gets the impression this character won't be improving much in the meta.
: Outside of having an incredible FSmash and good up air, all of his moves just have extremely little in the ways of reward. They're all "okay", but they don't lead to anything substantial. He also has one of the most suspect neutral and disadvantage states; Side B is one of his main approach tools yet is extremely punishable by most of the cast with very few followups if it does land, while his recovery is often times a gamble (though it can at least be mixed up). ZeRo believes he's an easy character to "fix" in patches, as if any of his moves get buffed to allow for some more substantive followups, he could end up being a promising character. As it stands he feels "incomplete".
: Slow, extremely punishable, abysmal neutral. Doesn't get proper followups out of a grab or any of his better options, and is extremely susceptible to shield grabs. His only saving graces are Up Smash, neutral B and Side B. Is only ranked higher than Game & Watch because he's a heavyweight and also has a forward air that exists.
: His only reliable OoS option (up-b) is borderline useless half of the time, and he has the absolute worst forward air in the game. He loses stage control incredibly easy because he's almost always forced to approach and edge guard with his back turned due to not having any good attacks that hit in front of him. Also dies easily.

 

[PsySmasher]

We talk about who the top characters are quite a lot, but I'd be interesting in hearing some thoughts on who the so called low tiers in this game are, what makes them so bad, and what can be done to see them rise in relevancy (this does not exclusively mean them getting buffed via patches). What are your thoughts, folks?

Oh boy... a lot of characters I tend to play end up being considered low tier, so this gonna be hard for me personally...

*This is all my opinion*

- ... Do I really have to explain this one? Similar problems as Smash 4: he has virtually no air game and the worst recovery. He doesn't really have too many combos either His overall design just doesn't work in this game.

- Aw... Plant. His aerials have s o... m u c h... l a g. He's got very little throw combos and kill confirms. His recovery can be easily exploited as well. He has no neutral game.

- Ah... my Smash 4 main. This hurts me so much. He's got virtually no throw combos, His recovery, like can be exploited (although it's a bit better in terms of mixing up the recovery). He's got good kill power but little kill confirms. Mechakoopa not being as good. Cannonball still sucks. Side B can be predictable. He has potential, but right now he's just... missing a few things.

- Geez... he's just laggy and slow. His belly armor can be broken easily by characters who can dish out damage very fast. Exploitable recovery. Plus all of the problems that come w/ heavies.

- No where near as threatening as in Smash 4; Ken is just the better way to go here.

- Low Range, light, horrible air speed despite the multiple jumps.

Edit: Forgot to add:
- Has like... no kill power. Great combos... but barely do any damage.

 

[The_Bookworm]

^That zss clip with Inkling is a troll. Please do some more research before posting clips like that as new tech, Bookworm

In my defense, the clip was having trouble loading for me, so I thought it was actually relevant. Oops lol

We talk about who the top characters are quite a lot, but I'd be interesting in hearing some thoughts on who the so called low tiers in this game are, what makes them so bad, and what can be done to see them rise in relevancy (this does not exclusively mean them getting buffed via patches). What are your thoughts, folks?

The ones that feel a little underwhelming:

Spoiler

Mostly because he moves too slowly. I think he is a little underrated, but having that slow mobility harms him quite a bit. Mobility buffs are an easy solution for him.
Combos and damage output feels a little weak, except for very specific situations. While his approach issues isn't as glaring as in SSB4, it is still glaring, especially when compared to the rest of the cast. To improve him: give him a more consistent combo game, or give him better approaching aerials.
Simply because he deals too little damage, especially considering how weak his disadvantage is in this game. Some damage buffs, and maybe a boost in KO power, should be an easy fix.
Edit: Forgot about . Feels like the character doesn't have quite enough cannon to make up for the glass.

The ones that I do think is a little underwhelming:

Spoiler

Has pretty much no way on dealing with projectile camping. A way of fixing this is to either: add more armor on his side B
Too little damage and little KO power for how light she is. We all know the drill.
Her mobility and frame data feels a bit too low, especially the former. I honestly have no idea why she got all those nerfs from SSB4. A buff in mobility can go a long way on making her better, and maybe give her special moves some of the utility she lost.
Deals too little damage in advantage and his aerials have a lot of startup (which is also combined with a weak airspeed). There is actually three easy options you can do to improve him: 1) Buff his overall damage output, 2) Buff the startup of his aerials, 3) Give him a bit more reach. Even giving him one of these options will be a huge boon to the character (although I doubt option 3 alone will make waves). Air speed buffs, although will help, isn't the most necessary considering that he is supposed to play grounded. Also, fix forward throw on BF and PS1 please.
Attacks are too slow. Frame data buffs are an easy way to fix it.

Characters that I think barely function as a character:

Spoiler

Built on the armor gimmick, but forgot to give him anything fast. Slow movement speed, mediocre at best frame data, and slow projectiles. Giving the croc a speed up on his moves (preferably the non-armor moves), and it will hugely benefit the character.
Fix her moves please. That is all I want, aside from maybe giving better KO options.
Make her Lloid Trap function a bit more closely to Snake's explosives. It is too easy to work around. Fishing Rod getting invalidated by shield also harms her a lot. The issue is that if Fishing Fod does go through shields, then she instantly becomes the most frustrating character to fight against. I am the creative solution of making only parries deflecting Fishing Rod, but I doubt that is the direction the devs will take.
Mediocre frame data at the air and some mediocre hitbox placements. The main thing is that the plant has no way on forces approaches on the opponent. The main solution to it that I can think of is giving it some mobility buffs in order give it a better approach.
Auto stage counterpicked thanks to his first jump not making on platforms. Fixing that is priority #1. Afterwards, give Mac some of the followups he lost from SSB4 back, and make it so that he doesn't "lose" his side B.

Those are my thoughts on them.

On the topic of low-tier candidates, ZeRo is doing yet another tier list and as expected he's going with the drip-feed approach yet again, so starting off with, appropriately enough to the discussion, the low tiers.

He feels isn't just the worst character in the game, but a character so bad that he deserves his own tier. A glass cannon without the "cannon" part where it doesn't matter how good you become with the character, you'll not be able to reconcile how at a design level, he is fundamentally broken. I like the point he brings up about most people speculating Little Mac would possibly become one of the best characters in the game when off the back of Ultimate's engine changes with cancelling dashes with tilts/attacks, it begs the question how the character would fare if he wasn't complete booty butt cheeks.

Outside of that, his low tier consists of, and is ranked (from best to worst)
: The "best" low-tier character, due to having some great out-of-shield options, some of the best Smash attacks in the game, decent edgeguarding and a meme-worthy NAir. He's nonetheless placed in low-tier because despite the strengths he's held back by the fact not being a heavyweight means he has only the disadvantages of being a large character (combo food, easy to gimp), as well as having a pitiful recovery. Would be considered a "mid-tier character" if there was any room for optimizing his play but considering his basic kit, ZeRo gets the impression this character won't be improving much in the meta.
: Outside of having an incredible FSmash and good up air, all of his moves just have extremely little in the ways of reward. They're all "okay", but they don't lead to anything substantial. He also has one of the most suspect neutral and disadvantage states; Side B is one of his main approach tools yet is extremely punishable by most of the cast with very few followups if it does land, while his recovery is often times a gamble (though it can at least be mixed up). ZeRo believes he's an easy character to "fix" in patches, as if any of his moves get buffed to allow for some more substantive followups, he could end up being a promising character. As it stands he feels "incomplete".
: Slow, extremely punishable, abysmal neutral. Doesn't get proper followups out of a grab or any of his better options, and is extremely susceptible to shield grabs. His only saving graces are Up Smash, neutral B and Side B. Is only ranked higher than Game & Watch because he's a heavyweight and also has a forward air that exists.
: His only reliable OoS option (up-b) is borderline useless half of the time, and he has the absolute worst forward air in the game. He loses stage control incredibly easy because he's almost always forced to approach and edge guard with his back turned due to not having any good attacks that hit in front of him. Also dies easily.

Part of me thinks that ZeRo doesn't understand some of these characters. The biggest evidence is that he didn't use any Trela or Maister footage for Ridley and G&W, respectively, so I don't think ZeRo knows how these characters are being pushed in the metagame. We kind of already talked about those two characters, so we can tell why it controversial that he put those two so low.

 

[Rizen]

With how highly praised and rated Shulk was by most pros in and out of the US, I'd love to see more shulk results. There are good shulk pros such as Nicko and now Larry Lurr who's been using Shulk a lot recently. But Shulk results just aren't there at the moment. I understand such hard character will take more time than others for pros to master but I'm not sure if this would actually happen. To those with more competitive knowledge than I do, what are your thoughts? How deo you all feel about Shulk?

I think Shulk is good but overrated. I've complained about Link's poor framedata but at least his fastest aerial isn't frame 13. sHULK HAS HIS STRONG POINTS, MONADO (damnit caps lock) is really good at breaking out of combos and buffing him. With properly used buffs he can survive really well and get early kills. But the buffs last a short time and don't fix his frame data. Shulk has the tools to potentially combat any character but he has to micromanage his arts and space attacks to make up for his abysmal frame data. IMO he's an upper mid tier.

 

[Foie]

On the topic of low tiers, I feel like has to be included near the bottom of every list unless someone actually can prove otherwise. She has a handful of decent matchups but loses hard to so many characters in this game. Her rest is so neutered (kills at 60-70) that half the time fsmash is a better option if you land sing. The same weaknesses that made her low tier in brawl and sm4sh seem to apply in ultimate as well.

Like Bookworm said, she's basically a glass canon minus the canon. She has had decent representation with very bad tourney results.

M2K (who has a great Puff) thinks she is low-tier in singles, high tier in doubles. I agree.

 

[FLGibsonIII]

On the topic of low-tier candidates, ZeRo is doing yet another tier list and as expected he's going with the drip-feed approach yet again, so starting off with, appropriately enough to the discussion, the low tiers.

He feels isn't just the worst character in the game, but a character so bad that he deserves his own tier. A glass cannon without the "cannon" part where it doesn't matter how good you become with the character, you'll not be able to reconcile how at a design level, he is fundamentally broken. I like the point he brings up about most people speculating Little Mac would possibly become one of the best characters in the game when off the back of Ultimate's engine changes with cancelling dashes with tilts/attacks, it begs the question how the character would fare if he wasn't complete booty butt cheeks.

Outside of that, his low tier consists of, and is ranked (from best to worst)
: The "best" low-tier character, due to having some great out-of-shield options, some of the best Smash attacks in the game, decent edgeguarding and a meme-worthy NAir. He's nonetheless placed in low-tier because despite the strengths he's held back by the fact not being a heavyweight means he has only the disadvantages of being a large character (combo food, easy to gimp), as well as having a pitiful recovery. Would be considered a "mid-tier character" if there was any room for optimizing his play but considering his basic kit, ZeRo gets the impression this character won't be improving much in the meta.
: Outside of having an incredible FSmash and good up air, all of his moves just have extremely little in the ways of reward. They're all "okay", but they don't lead to anything substantial. He also has one of the most suspect neutral and disadvantage states; Side B is one of his main approach tools yet is extremely punishable by most of the cast with very few followups if it does land, while his recovery is often times a gamble (though it can at least be mixed up). ZeRo believes he's an easy character to "fix" in patches, as if any of his moves get buffed to allow for some more substantive followups, he could end up being a promising character. As it stands he feels "incomplete".
: Slow, extremely punishable, abysmal neutral. Doesn't get proper followups out of a grab or any of his better options, and is extremely susceptible to shield grabs. His only saving graces are Up Smash, neutral B and Side B. Is only ranked higher than Game & Watch because he's a heavyweight and also has a forward air that exists.
: His only reliable OoS option (up-b) is borderline useless half of the time, and he has the absolute worst forward air in the game. He loses stage control incredibly easy because he's almost always forced to approach and edge guard with his back turned due to not having any good attacks that hit in front of him. Also dies easily.

I agree with all of this strongly except for Ridley as I think he is mid tier. I dont know how zero can justify k rool being above Ridley honestly.

 

[AxelVDP]

Jesus I am TRIGGERED by reading such huge ammount of misinformation (regarding Mac and other low tiers aswell) in this thread.
I'm considering actually replying to every "argument" that has been posted but I don't know if I can be assed right now, maybe I'll edit my post later

Just a little pointer for now: you can't say "X is low tier because he has these weaknesses", I could be doing almost the same argument for every character in the game like "Wolf/Chrom has a really bad recovery just pick a character with a counter and they die offstage lmao"
You have to look at how the whole kit of the character interacts with other characters, a bad recovery matters little if you have an oppressive neutral and advantatge state and get launched offstage rarely, bad OoS means almost **** if you don't have to shield often, not having kill setups is not that terrible if you have plenty of safeish kill moves and so on.
I do understand that going into detail for everything might be a little to much work, but most (not all) of the posts here are gross oversemplifications that border meme status.

 

[Repli.Cant]

slander? In my CCI thread? It's more likely than you think.

I feel a bit like a broken record at this point. People really like to overrate his nerfs and underrate his buffs. Sure mechakoopa dies on shields.... but now it sticks to people it touches, allowing for some nice interactions, especially with throws. Speaking of throws-- uthrow is great for combos (uair strings)!! Dthrow does 15% and sends at an amazing low angle. Bthrow can kill at the ledge. Fthrow being the only one that's not very good. He has a frame 4 rapid jab that does really good damage and kills. Fair is good spacing tool and bair is a great kill move-- both being able to autocancel. Nair is a great OoS option and combo starter, with late nair comboing into grabs/jabs/tilts until mid %s. It also autocancels now from SH now. Fsmash is still pretty good and shield pokes like hell, and usmash is a great OoS option for nabbing kills on unsafe moves.

Kart is what I really want to talk about though. It's not a neutral tool. You don't just use the move. It's a punish tool that still combos well. Kart spinout kills surprisingly early. It still has the kill confirm of side b > up b hammer. And now it doesn't eat his second jump! That's amazing. His up b still is gimpable as before, but (personally) I find it not happening as much as it did in S4 because of how much I can mix up and stall my recovery with that second jump. He isn't that bad, guys.

ITT: I am only useful for Jr. talk :]

 

[gamingfoxlover]

It is stupidly easy for Yoshi to juggle opponents with DJ up air. He can

 

[gamingfoxlover]

Why is not in Smash yet?

 

[meleebrawler]

slander? In my CCI thread? It's more likely than you think.

I feel a bit like a broken record at this point. People really like to overrate his nerfs and underrate his buffs. Sure mechakoopa dies on shields.... but now it sticks to people it touches, allowing for some nice interactions, especially with throws. Speaking of throws-- uthrow is great for combos (uair strings)!! Dthrow does 15% and sends at an amazing low angle. Bthrow can kill at the ledge. Fthrow being the only one that's not very good. He has a frame 4 rapid jab that does really good damage and kills. Fair is good spacing tool and bair is a great kill move-- both being able to autocancel. Nair is a great OoS option and combo starter, with late nair comboing into grabs/jabs/tilts until mid %s. It also autocancels now from SH now. Fsmash is still pretty good and shield pokes like hell, and usmash is a great OoS option for nabbing kills on unsafe moves.

Kart is what I really want to talk about though. It's not a neutral tool. You don't just use the move. It's a punish tool that still combos well. Kart spinout kills surprisingly early. It still has the kill confirm of side b > up b hammer. And now it doesn't eat his second jump! That's amazing. His up b still is gimpable as before, but (personally) I find it not happening as much as it did in S4 because of how much I can mix up and stall my recovery with that second jump. He isn't that bad, guys.

Not to mention the buffed Clown Cannon. Imagine if K. Rool traded suction for multiple shots and you have this. While still too slow to combat heavy camping, they can cover a surprising amount of real estate in conjunction with mechakoopa. And unlike that, shielding cannon shots is risky since they do good shield damage and there's a possibility of the falling hitbox hurting you or further damaging your shield.

 

[Krysco]

With the low tier talk, I've seen two posts mention Ryu as a contender and both mention how Ken is just a better option. I'm not knowledgeable on either character to say how true that is or not although on a surface level it seems obvious since one of Ryu's issues in Smash 4 was his low speed and Ken has higher ground speed than Ryu.

What I can say is that just because Ken is better than Ryu, that doesn't necessarily have to mean that Ryu is a bad character. That sort of thinking is how we got Marth in 19th and Lucina all the way down in 36th on the second Smash 4 tier list (which was made when patch 1.1.6 was out mind you). This is part of where the whole Marcina debate 'wars' came from back in the Smash 4 CCI threads.

Ryu could very well be a low tier character but it would be due to his own flaws and not because a better version of him exists. Movement speed in Smash is usually a large factor in character viability. Look no further than the tier difference between Mario and Dr. Mario in Smash 4 for proof (among Docs other issues). Speaking of Doc, I haven't seen anyone mention him as a contender for low tier yet. Seems like an obvious pick since he still has rather low movement speed, poor range and a bad recovery. Perhaps the power behind his attacks actually makes up for all of those flaws this time.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Why is not in Smash yet?

This thread is about talking about characters performances in tournaments and their placings in the meta. You might want to take to the general threads for discussing things like this.

 

[Gleam]

When it comes to low tier characters, without directly ranking them.

1. Ganondorf
Slow mobility, no projectile or ability to deal with such, horrible recovery. The only thing helping him is some minor results which is more than I can say for others.

2. Little Mac
Simply suffers from what he did before. Horrid recovery, terrible airframe who simply can't handle the pressure regardless of the potential buffs he may have gotten.

3. Corrin
Lost most of what made her good before, including nerds on Dragon Shot and recovery with few results to benefit her.

4. King K. Rool
An incredibly gimmicky character who people have simply found away around. Slow, easily combed, laugh attacks and had the unfortunate point of being merged despite his results already dropping.

Charcters such as Kirby, Bowser Jr. and Isabelle would also fall under this list but I feel that I can't give an apt enough reason beyond terrible results. A lack of knowledge really.

Meanwhile, characters like Bayonetta, Zelda and Incineroar I once considered low tier but thanks to several buffs and improved results, I'm more willing to consider them Mid Tier. Incineroar has shown some fine improvement thanks to the 2.0 buffs.

Also, ZeRo really needs to get off the "Ridley is bad" train despite having multiple local tourney wins, first placement and professional showings by Vreyus, Trela and others, even getting into the technical upper half of the Orion Tournament Ranking at #27. All of this despite not being that popular a character to begin with.

At this point Ridley could have a buff where he has 6 jumps, Lucina's sword, Greninja's mobility and pressing jab instantly kill all of your opponent's stocks and he'd still say he was low tier I feel.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking of Ridley, is there any potential whatsoever in his down special other than a meme shieldbreak punish, or is it simply dead weight a la Melee/Brawl Sheik's down special?

 

[Y2Kay]

Most of the Ridley players I have fought use the move for hard punishes, ledgetrapping, and tech chases. Definitely not as dead weight as turning into a bottom tier character.

 

[adom4]

Speaking of Ridley, is there any potential whatsoever in his down special other than a meme shieldbreak punish, or is it simply dead weight a la Melee/Brawl Sheik's down special?

Skewer is fantastic at catching airdodges and especially vs landing aerials, any overextension vs this move means 60% and a tail up your liver.
It also has some setups with platform stages if they miss the tech.

 

[Foie]

Mii Swordfighter might be top tier.

So looking at the title you might think “His tornado up-b might ko early, but it’s hard to hit, and inconsistent. That can’t make him top tier”. Well... you’re right, and I’m not even going to mention tornado upb.

I’m talking about the beast known as “2332”. Please, heed my warning...

So first let’s talk about mii swordfighter’s normals starting with his nair. He shares with Ike and Cloud the infamous round-house nair. One of the most powerful neutral tools in the game. He also has a freakishly fast frame 5 down tilt that combo’s into fair for free. Furthermore, he has a frame 10 bair that has the strength of a smash attack. His upair is a multi hitting move that KO’s, and his down-air is a multi-hitting move with a landing hitbox. His forward tilt does 14%, and his up-tilt covers 180 degrees around his body. His forward air combo’s into itself, and true combo’s into smash attacks when auto-cancelled. Finally, his up smash is a 3 hit attack that extends insanely far over his head. It’s actually a god-like moveset. Oh yeah, did I mention he has the longest dash grab in the game? Although, let’s talk about the juicy specials...

Starting with shuriken of light; shuriken of light is a projectile that basically serves as a ranged parry. If you hit it from any distance that provides hit-stun (e.g. the starting position in the training room), you gain frame advantage. That’s insane considering that the end lag is SIGNIFICANTLY less than greninja’s water shuriken. Next is chakram.

Chakram is a projectile I consider to be a rival to wolf’s laser. Albeit it has three extra frames of end-lag, and isn’t electric, it is surely superior in versatility and speed. Chakram travels faster than laser moving at 1.5x the speed of laser. It can also be angled up, or down. Finally, it can be thrown with a tilt to be a short-ranged multi-hitting attack. This is pretty important. Those of you who are skeptical about tossing tornado, understand that jumping into your opponent with a short chakram is a free combo into hero spin. It’s just as broken, and more consistent. It doubles as a ledge-guard, as it can be thrown below the ledge where it will linger to intercept recoveries.

Next is hero’s spin. Hero’s spin doesn’t really have any awesome attributes other than being your basic “Link up b”. Although, it does come out a frame faster than Young Link’s up b. Most importantly it grants a viable out of shield option and contributes to a busted KO combo (short hop slow chakram > up b).

Finally, reversal slash. Reversal slash has to be the most powerful reflector in the game. While it comes out a frame slower than wolf’s reflector it reflects not only projectiles, but people as well making it the fastest character reflector in the game. It can stall in the air, and wave bounce. This thing is awesome in neutral, and even better as an edge-guard.

So in conclusion, mii swordfighter actually has a moveset that rivals the best swordsmen and projectiles in the game. Powerful normals including Ike’s round-house nair, and one of the fastest down-tilts in the game. Two projectiles that are debatably better than greninja’s water shuriken and wolf’s lazer. A KO confirm at 60%. A huge dash grab. And finally, the fastest character reflector in the game. I will be surprised if mii swordfighter doesn’t make it to the top soon. I genuinely believe he counters a large majority of the current meta.

Definitely a hot take. I've always thought Shakram was his best projectile. The speed, damage, and mixup potential make it one of the more versatile projectiles in the game.

I still think Swordfighter falls somewhere between mid and high.

I'm gonna go watch some good swordfighter vids of I can find 'em.

PS. Inigo Montoya is the only true Mii Swordfighter form.

 

[meleebrawler]

With the low tier talk, I've seen two posts mention Ryu as a contender and both mention how Ken is just a better option. I'm not knowledgeable on either character to say how true that is or not although on a surface level it seems obvious since one of Ryu's issues in Smash 4 was his low speed and Ken has higher ground speed than Ryu.

What I can say is that just because Ken is better than Ryu, that doesn't necessarily have to mean that Ryu is a bad character. That sort of thinking is how we got Marth in 19th and Lucina all the way down in 36th on the second Smash 4 tier list (which was made when patch 1.1.6 was out mind you). This is part of where the whole Marcina debate 'wars' came from back in the Smash 4 CCI threads.

Ryu could very well be a low tier character but it would be due to his own flaws and not because a better version of him exists. Movement speed in Smash is usually a large factor in character viability. Look no further than the tier difference between Mario and Dr. Mario in Smash 4 for proof (among Docs other issues). Speaking of Doc, I haven't seen anyone mention him as a contender for low tier yet. Seems like an obvious pick since he still has rather low movement speed, poor range and a bad recovery. Perhaps the power behind his attacks actually makes up for all of those flaws this time.

It's a bit strange nobody brings up Ken's actual viability when discussing him, only how he supposedly outclasses Ryu. Realistically, even if that's completely true he'd only be a tier higher than Ryu at most. He may be a bit faster on the ground but his air mobility is the exact same (ie inflexible and linear). He still loses to the same things Ryu does, just maybe a little less.

The one true defining trait that I think firmly puts Ken ahead in most situations is his Shoryuken. Much more than a slight increase in ground speed or a more diverse combo tree, Heavy Shoryuken is an actually threatening anti-air that greatly increases the respect you have to give in approaching from mid-range. Jumping around to try and bait him into an air fight can easily backfire.

That said, there are still times where I'll miss having Ryu's Tatsumaki to punish ranged commitments...

 

[Crooked Crow]

I used to think Little Mac was the worst, but a character that has a counter, x-factor like KO Punch, good frame data, and armour on their smash attacks can't be the absolute worst; at least not so bad they warrant their own tier. Not to mention that his smash attacks are also safe on shield, aren't they?

 

[Repli.Cant]

The thing about Mac though is that even with all those things going for him, he is completely held back by his complete lack of an air game and recovery. Sure, KO Punch is a thing (which got nerfed in the transition to Smash Ultimate) is a thing, but ftilt doesn't link properly most of the time and dtilt got nerfed and doesn't combo into things as long as it did before.

He's a pub stomper through and through. Someone can sit at ledge and laugh as they parry whatever is thrown at them, punish with a grab, then bthrow > bair him until he dies.

 

[Crooked Crow]

He's a pub stomper through and through. Someone can sit at ledge and laugh as they parry whatever is thrown at them, punish with a grab, then bthrow > bair him until he dies.

Bair? Depends. Little Mac's counter actually brings him towards the stage. They will try to abuse this.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Bair? Depends. Little Mac's counter actually brings him towards the stage. They will try to abuse this.

True you can definitely use counter to recover and it may work once, and that's really about it. After your opponent realizes your trying to use counter to recover just wait it out and hit him and that's GG. He's wide open on whiff and usually it's not worth it.

 

[N8than]

Is it weird that ZeRo didn't put kirby in low tier?

 

[ASAP_Smash]

Definitely a hot take. I've always thought Shakram was his best projectile. The speed, damage, and mixup potential make it one of the more versatile projectiles in the game.

I still think Swordfighter falls somewhere between mid and high.

I'm gonna go watch some good swordfighter vids of I can find 'em.

PS. Inigo Montoya is the only true Mii Swordfighter form.

I think anonymous moniker 3 is the best Mii Swordfighter in tournaments, but he opts for tornado. Although, I strongly believe it holds him back because pretty much no one allows themselves to get hit by tornado.

Spoiler: Moniker 3

I’ve seen one person use shuriken of light in tournament, but he got bodied. However, you could immediately see the difference in neutral game that shuriken of light had over tornado.

Spoiler: Shuriken of light

Both players, I noticed, never went for reflector edge-guards, or any off-stage edge-guards for that matter. They also very seldom used slow chakram into upb. I think if you look up mii sword fighter right now you’re not going to find anyone who has him optimized. But the frame data, neutral game, combo’s, edge-guards, zoning tools, and KO’s are more than there.

 

[KirbySquad101]

While I do appreciate ZeRo attempting to give reasons for his placements, his said actually reasonings feel for these characters feel kind of linear and don't actually cover that much about the characters overall.

It feels as though 90% of his reasoning for 's placement amounts to "FAir sucks" and "You can outspace Up B", the latter of which I have actually seen happen very few times; he pretty much did what most Smash players do and evaluate only what got nerfed while completely glossing over what did get buffed. Part of me thinks that ZeRo mostly based his analysis off of GimR's performance with him, but I could be wrong here.

His reasoning for 's placement feels even more confusing; while I don't think his recovery is all that good, the whole "disproportionate size and weight" problem can also easily be applied to both and. I wouldn't be so bothered about this if he explained why it hurts Ridley so much more comparatively to those two characters, but he really doesn't, and I don't think it's nearly enough to put him in bottom 5, especially when I think there's other characters that have flaws that are more crippling (i.e. 's inability to get in very well and deal with projectiles).

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

It’s funny because he was getting bopped by Tweek’s Ridley <trigger alert> online. Honestly, I’m pretty skeptical of Zero’s takes on the less explored characters in the cast. My impression from watching him play and talk with other top players is that he’s not as far along in character knowledge as say Dabuz

 

[Rocketjay8]

While I do appreciate ZeRo attempting to give reasons for his placements, his said actually reasonings feel for these characters feel kind of linear and don't actually cover that much about the characters overall.

It feels as though 90% of his reasoning for 's placement amounts to "FAir sucks" and "You can outspace Up B", the latter of which I have actually seen happen very few times; he pretty much did what most Smash players do and evaluate only what got nerfed while completely glossing over what did get buffed. Part of me thinks that ZeRo mostly based his analysis off of GimR's performance with him, but I could be wrong here.

His reasoning for 's placement feels even more confusing; while I don't think his recovery is all that good, the whole "disproportionate size and weight" problem can also easily be applied to both and. I wouldn't be so bothered about this if he explained why it hurts Ridley so much more comparatively to those two characters, but he really doesn't, and I don't think it's nearly enough to put him in bottom 5, especially when I think there's other characters that have flaws that are more crippling (i.e. 's inability to get in very well and deal with projectiles).

It's a whole lot worse for because he weighs 77 while and are 107 and 106 respectively.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz's patient waiting for a S tier sponsor is finally over.

Challenging the meta and challenging the world.@DabuzSenpai, the Olimar Master, will be making his official TL debut this weekend at the Smash Ultimate Summit #LetsGoLiquidhttps://t.co/otJMYI2FOv

— Team Liquid (@TeamLiquid) March 8, 2019

Salem legit just got replaced. Anyways, congrats Dabuz!

 

[Y2Kay]

Ridley is most likely mid tier. His really strong aerial and grounded pokes, along with good movement on the ground gives him a pretty good Neutral game. He has amazing Anti Airs in Up Tilt and Up Smash. Really strong coverage fro tech options and ledge scenarios with down smash. His disadvantage is definitely bad but it's not as bad as others since he has additional jumps.

 

[PsySmasher]

slander? In my CCI thread? It's more likely than you think.

I feel a bit like a broken record at this point. People really like to overrate his nerfs and underrate his buffs. Sure mechakoopa dies on shields.... but now it sticks to people it touches, allowing for some nice interactions, especially with throws. Speaking of throws-- uthrow is great for combos (uair strings)!! Dthrow does 15% and sends at an amazing low angle. Bthrow can kill at the ledge. Fthrow being the only one that's not very good. He has a frame 4 rapid jab that does really good damage and kills. Fair is good spacing tool and bair is a great kill move-- both being able to autocancel. Nair is a great OoS option and combo starter, with late nair comboing into grabs/jabs/tilts until mid %s. It also autocancels now from SH now. Fsmash is still pretty good and shield pokes like hell, and usmash is a great OoS option for nabbing kills on unsafe moves.

Kart is what I really want to talk about though. It's not a neutral tool. You don't just use the move. It's a punish tool that still combos well. Kart spinout kills surprisingly early. It still has the kill confirm of side b > up b hammer. And now it doesn't eat his second jump! That's amazing. His up b still is gimpable as before, but (personally) I find it not happening as much as it did in S4 because of how much I can mix up and stall my recovery with that second jump. He isn't that bad, guys.

Man. It feels so good to hear someone say something positive about Jr. when others (including myself) tend to be on the more negative side.

Speaking of Ridley, is there any potential whatsoever in his down special other than a meme shieldbreak punish, or is it simply dead weight a la Melee/Brawl Sheik's down special?

It's mostly use as a hard punish/ledgetrapping/tech chases.

I use it as a random times if the spacing seems right (and if I'm feeling brave enough).

I also use it out of a Down Throw at low percents. It's not a true combo, but you could net a free 70% damage if the opponent doesn't directional air dodge immediately after. I tend to try it once per match to see if the opponent knows how to avoid it.

I definitely don't think Ridley is bottom tier.
Yes, his size-weight ratio isn't all that great (honestly has it significantly worse in that regard).

But he's got good neutral, decent combos, a great punish game and a lot of kill power.

If I'm being honest, I'd put him somewhere in mid tier (probably the middle or slightly higher).

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

when discussing the viability of unpopular characters you should look for the opinions of players that main the character or has played against a good one on regular basis, top players will tell you the basic knowledge or even disinformation, and you need to remember that is mostly their opinion could be right or wrong.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of Ridley, is there any potential whatsoever in his down special other than a meme shieldbreak punish, or is it simply dead weight a la Melee/Brawl Sheik's down special?

I've seen it hit once and you have no idea how much salt that generates.

I got 9th out of maybe 100 people. Will post more tomorrow.

 

[Minordeth]

Ridley being underrated isn’t a surprise at all, at this point. His stronger mains don’t travel much, and zero of those have shown up to a major so far.

The character has more nuance and depth than most give him credit for, and has set-ups, traps, and so on that make his advantage state the oppressive show that it can be. His neutral is strong, thanks to his ground speed, stupid disjoints, threat of a command grab, variable shot projectile, multiple jumps, and frame 4 jab.

Yeah, his massive hitbox is his balancing force. If Nintendo wanted to make him a clear high/top tier, they would reduce his hitbox back toward its original size - which was apparently Bayo-esque.

On a side note, to some degree, it may be that the relative strength of the tiers in Ultimate approaches something like Guilty Gear, where a mid tier can win a major. Arcsys has a idiosyncratic balancing philosophy, however, and I don’t see too many devs emulating it.

Part of what makes the GG series work is that strong, but limited, defensive options are universally available. Those options allow for absolutely bananas offensive power across the cast. No matter how hard you are being comboed, you can use some sort of escape option, or even reverse the offensive onslaught and make a comeback.

As a thought experiment, I imagined air-dodge being supplemented or replaced with a one time use combo breaker, available to every character, once every five or so seconds. Something similar to Guilty Gear’s Burst but more simple: still frame 1, but obviously not tied to a meter, and still may only be used once aerially, and grounded uses would have heavy lag.

The ability for any character to combo break would be huge, and allow for crazy comebacks, among other things. On the flip side, it would still allow for those in advantage to anticipate, and punish, that attempt.

The downside to something like that, is that it would make the skill floor quite a bit higher in competitive play, as advantage states would feel far more oppressive if a good player got a read on your breaker attempts.

 

[Heracr055]

Dabuz's patient waiting for a S tier sponsor is finally over.

Challenging the meta and challenging the world.@DabuzSenpai, the Olimar Master, will be making his official TL debut this weekend at the Smash Ultimate Summit #LetsGoLiquidhttps://t.co/otJMYI2FOv

— Team Liquid (@TeamLiquid) March 8, 2019

Salem legit just got replaced. Anyways, congrats Dabuz!

Was mentioning Salem really necessary? You know what, since I imagine quite a few of you have the wrong idea: Salem's contract expired (same thing happened to MVD), his letting go had nothing to do with his recent controversey. If they want to keep up as a relevant organization of course they would bring on somebody new.
A big issue with Ridley is, of course, his lack of weight to accompany his size. This couples with his bad disadvantage to make it where he is quite vulnerable to getting KOed much sooner than you'd think.

 

[Lore]

Yeah let's try to keep Salem-drama talk out of the thread. I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, but bringing it up invites some drama of our own lol.

 

[NotLiquid]

Pichu's BAir can be SDI'd out of if your character is small and/or floaty.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah Ridley is one of mid-tier cases that if he can get a few notable buffs and some Qol changes, he can potentially become an absolute monster.
But as it is His nightmareish advantage state being offset pretty hard by his pitiful disadvantage.


On a side note. While I also question and diaagree with ZeRo's. Current list for it. I honestly feel that no one should really give him too much flak
He stated in the vid while he takes tourament results into consideration for his list, he is mostly going by his own gut opinions. So most people who follow or followed ZeRo in the past will likely will be aware of kind of list this will be.
Honestly I think that is why he has (for now) decided to mosty retire and distance himself from the competive scene and focus mistly on his youtube channel and streaming. He guy ust wants to say and do what he wants to do without dealiing with all the stress and toxicity he expericned though most of his professional Smash 4 career