Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

With Wolf's preformance so far. I wonder who might be the better spacie overall between and I know there gameplans and playstlye are very different from each other, but its something I have been considering
Wolf seems to be more well rounded overall and easier to pick up and be sucessful with. But Fox still the volatility and likely better at taking stocks consistently.

So far is say Fox may the the better one overall, but not by alot.

 

[Untouch]

With Wolf's preformance so far. I wonder who might be the better spacie overall between and I know there gameplans and playstlye are very different from each other, but its something I have been considering
Wolf seems to be more well rounded overall and easier to pick up and be sucessful with. But Fox still the volatility and likely better at taking stocks consistently.

So far is say Fox may the the better one overall, but not by alot.

I feel is much easier to pick up and play than , so early on there's a lot more players. Overall is better in my opinion.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Who do you think has the overall better recovery between Wolf and Fox?

Also how about that MKLeo Fatality Ike vs Captain Falcon set? That was brutal

 

[Y2Kay]

People are getting a bit carried away when calling Wolf the new Sheik. Sheik is fast as hell, has near untouchable recovery, great disadvantage, and a threatening grab game.

Wolf is much more manageable than Sheik ever was in her heyday of Smash 4.

 

[Rizen]

With Wolf's preformance so far. I wonder who might be the better spacie overall between and I know there gameplans and playstlye are very different from each other, but its something I have been considering
Wolf seems to be more well rounded overall and easier to pick up and be sucessful with. But Fox still the volatility and likely better at taking stocks consistently.

So far is say Fox may the the better one overall, but not by alot.

This might be bias because YL has an easier time vs Wolf but IMO Fox is better. Fox is faster and he suffocates you making him more oppressive than Wolf.

I did recently move Wolf up to top tier but think he's partially riding on popularity. He's a "new toy" and not complicated to win with. Not to downplay his strengths, Wolf obviously is a superb character who's very capable of winning, but I feel his results are somewhat based on the snowball effect.

 

[Thinkaman]

There are obviously other characters and reps I am missing, but the bottom line is that as stacked as Genesis is, we are still only getting a piece of the overall picture.

Curious about Raito. He just posted this to twitter:

ダックハントの上スマって発生そんな遅くないんだよな 吹っ飛ばし力上がってるから反撃で取れるシーンもっと考えても良いのかもしれない

I can't tell if he is vowing to continue with Duck Hunt, giving up on Duck Hunt, or what he is saying. Nobie might be able to shed light?

 

[Ffamran]

Hot Take Zone:

Wolf goes even or beats Fox, but goes even or loses to Falco.

Good luck with the Falco part of your statement. Yes, part of that is me ragging on Falco as usual, but the other part is as you and others noted, for as large as Genesis 6 is not every character was represented. The only Falco player I've seen for Genesis was Kofi who had to fight Leffen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzLLnDyBxk.

Spoiler: More Unnecessary Falco

I've never heard of a player by the tag of Kofi in Smash 4 and a Falco player at that. A quick search showed that he used to play Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, and apparently Bayonetta in Smash 4. Not sure if he ever had any high placings. Anyway, other than him, I don't know and I don't think any other notable Falco players showed up. And before anyone asks, no, I do not count Larry or ZD as notable Falco players. They pull Falco out for certain matches or matchups and either didn't use him anymore or it didn't work out like I don't know why ZD keeps picking the Star Fox characters against WaDi when time and time again WaDi shows he can pick them apart and perhaps ROB might even have winning matchups against Fox, Falco, and Wolf. That said, Larry was able to go 3-0 against 8BitMan with Fox, so it just might be ZD's own issues with fighting ROB. I think it's been said by the Xanadu commentators that ZD hates ROB as a character or something on stream before.

Then that leaves the question of who are the notable Ultimate Falco players? Most of the well-known ones from Smash 4 aren't anymore because they dropped him for one reason or another. Anragon dropped Falco for Inkling currently and maybe Dark Samus, Armando the player formerly known as AC dropped Falco and Meta Knight for Snake, Cyro dropped Falco and stuck with Meta Knight I believe, Daybreak dropped Falco for Wolf and has been doing very well in Michigan, Keitaro dropped Falco for Snake, and so on. I couldn't keep track of Smash 4 Falco players in Japan and for the most part, Smash 4 Falco was like a niche sideshow character where you got these cool Falco-only tournaments showing good movement and understanding how a character worked, but that was it. That leaves Ultimate Falco with any of the old guard left standing and anyone picking him up.

And my opinion on who the best Falco players are would be Ismon, Osprey, and maybe conso. Ismon and Osprey are the only Falco players that I've seen use Blaster frequently instead of always trying to rushdown with Falco and essentially playing him as a slower Fox for every single matchup. You can, but you need to be unbelievably aggressive or unpredictable like conso, but that still means you're neglecting an option of Falco's. conso was mentioned before as a player from Queensland, Australia where I doubt he would have gone to Genesis 6 unless he was that confident or was destroying his local which he wasn't, Ismon was apparently a Smash 4 Wario player who picked up Falco and hasn't really played Wario in Ultimate much, and Osprey played Falco in Smash 4 and frequently fought Sol.

The rushdown thing I feel like is a general problem rather than a Falco player thing. Case in point: most Wolf players compared to Zackray. I've said it as trash talk before, but most Wolf players outside of Japan play like idiots. You can rushdown with Falco and Wolf, but because their ground speed isn't high, you have to be unpredictable about how you move. In other words, stop bumrushing straight towards your opponent. You are not playing Captain Falcon, Fox, or Sonic with their amazing run speed. You might have amazing aerials, but you're not using a sword or have wacky stuff on your aerials which even then, characters like Corrin, Ike, and Shulk aren't being play as rushdown or purely rushdown characters. Also, please stop using Fair to approach as Falco. Goddamn.

With Falco vs. Wolf, on paper, it could be possible in whatever reasoning it would be, but in practice, I don't think it's going to happen unless some freak of nature shows up playing Falco. Osiris and ZD were able to use Falco to beat EMP's Wolf. That's great, but EMP is not on the level of Dexter, Eim if he still plays Wolf, K9, Seagull Joe, or VoiD much less Zackray as a Wolf player. I don't know if the locals conso, Ismon, and Osprey have great Wolf players and I don't know if they ever fought them because by chance, they could have managed to somehow avoid fighting them every time they went to their local.

TL;DR: There aren't a lot of good Falco players, able to travel or not. If the Star Fox characters were soft drinks, then Fox would be Coke and Wolf would be Pepsi. Falco would be like ginger ale or some **** that you only see people drink once in a while and unwillingly.

 

[J0eyboi]

Comparing Fox to Wolf is analogous to comparing Ness to Lucas. Their only real similarities are the series they come from. It'd probably be more apt to compare Fox to Ness and Wolf to Lucas.

Anyway, Wolf might drop a bit over time solely due to optimization. Wolf's being figured out very quickly, both because he's relatively simple and because he's really popular right now, so his meta is likely to run out of room to grow pretty fast, while other characters keep developing. As such, it's possible he gets left behind a bit (but not that much, there's no way he's dropping below the median or even the upper quartile) later on in the game's meta. Of course, patches could also happen that make him worse. We'll just have to see.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I feel is much easier to pick up and play than , so early on there's a lot more players. Overall is better in my opinion.

Fox has amazing results at top level. I think both characters could potentially be top 5, with Fox being a bit better. Both are really scary, anyway (and I don't think the characters are all that similar, two very different characters really, who do well/poorly in different matchups).

 

[Nobie]

Curious about Raito. He just posted this to twitter:

ダックハントの上スマって発生そんな遅くないんだよな 吹っ飛ばし力上がってるから反撃で取れるシーンもっと考えても良いのかもしれない

I can't tell if he is vowing to continue with Duck Hunt, giving up on Duck Hunt, or what he is saying. Nobie might be able to shed light?

"The start-up on Duck Hunt's up smash isn't all that slow, right? And they upped the knockback on it, so it might be a good idea to think of scenarios where I use it as a counterattack."

 

[Aaron1997]

To clarify, this goes for majors outside of the tri-state area. I'll still go to locals here and there. But it's a risk traveling with life being busy and all.

— Sinji (@Sinji93) February 3, 2019

Looks like Sinji will be tri-state only from now on.

 

[Ffamran]

"The start-up on Duck Hunt's up smash isn't all that slow, right? And they upped the knockback on it, so it might be a good idea to think of scenarios where I use it as a counterattack."

Man, I really need to learn Japanese and a bunch of other languages. This is what Google Translate says and I'm guessing why Thinkaman thought that Raito was unsure of what to do with Duck Hunt: "Duck hunt 's over, it happens Is not it late like that It' s not blown away And I'm getting up The scene that can be taken with counterattacks Maybe I can think even more".

On what Raito is saying, Duck Hunt's Up Smash is frame 12 on startup, 1 frame slower than Wolf's Up Smash which has been used out of shield effectively by his players. The obvious difference is hitboxes. I think you could use it as an anti-air if it already hasn't been used as one as Duck Hunt does low profile during Up Smash and the hitboxes aren't on Duck Hunt. How reliable it would be and if it could be used as a good out of shield option, so as a counterattack, I don't know.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

: Don't really have anything to say other than it being extremely poignant that a Mega Man player got this far in bracket and even got the upset over one of this tournament's star players right before he'll inevitably get bodied with one incredibly sinister nerf. I hope there's still a place for him in 2.0.0.

After rooting for Yeti to place well at Genesis 6 all weekend knowing just how skilled as a player he is and seeing him almost obtain the ultimate goal of making Top 8 out of 2000+ entrants, I'm glad I got to see his run. The controversy/hate surrounding Leaf Shield and even surrounding Yeti himself though is quite hilarious not gonna lie. Yeti is one of the last players that should be called "carried" considering what he did late game S4 and all the upsets/results he's had, and how he even dominated ultimate region tournaments despite not knowing you can hold B to extend Leaf Shield until mid win streak lmao.

Patch 2.0.0 listed the single MegaMan change as "Special moves will not be activated when jumping and using Mega Buster." This was the basis for the large part of the "Macro Cancel" tech that allowed him to hit confirm and cancel pellet endlag into Leaf Shield. This was huge because he'd get almost 30% and instant stage control just for mixing up his timings on his quick, ranged, barely committal projectile. Even if he missed, he could try to shield poke, cover himself with the toss, or just continue holding B to run away and reset. He could be more aggressive or choose to disengage at will.

This combined with MegaMan's amazing neutral game, his buffed kill power/setups, and just how well he does with stage control (especially in the juggle & edge-guarding department) and you could see why it was so talked about; especially in the regions with notable Mega players which because the char is still so rare people didn't understand just how strong he was until it came closer to Genesis and thus the patch itself. This is even before factoring the other stuff Macro Cancels did like the infinite which he could do even off a Z-Drop Blade OOS (not to mention someone in Mega Discord was working on a way to do it without relying on RNG) or the kill confirm he got off metal blade and thus by extension, pellets as well.

However, what people don't realize is the fact that Leaf Shield remains the same exact move in the new patch. Yeti definitely abused Macro Cancels at Genesis (and why wouldn't he, it was simply the most optimal option and granted free damage lol) but he also hit most of them just raw in combination with mixups and reads. Even post-patch he can use the move in a lot of the same situations for a similar effect (escape disadvantage, ledge option, cut through projectiles, shield poke/pressure, etc.) It's still a tool that requires opponents to respect his up-close pressure more than they used to. Leaf Shield Startup is Frame 7 which is the same frame as his pellets interestingly enough.

I thought that Mega Man was stupid good while he still had access to that tech, but even without, I still think he's very solid if I'm being honest. I don't see him dropping down entire tiers like people are suspecting nor do I see any MUs getting drastically affected at all; he might remain in a very similar spot imo. Especially with no other changes happening to his moveset in 2.0.0 and seeing all the new stuff that has already been discovered or are now resurfacing due to the fact that they weren't needed because Pellet -> Leaf Shield was most optimal in every situation.

For example, this setup was discovered in early S4. Most effective against Heavies/Tall Chars for various factors in that game. In Ultimate however, it's easier to do this in general due to buffering and item blade dealing less % than it used to in S4 allowing it string together more easily (he can also do this OOS). This is just one of many things that will be used to make up for the small hole that Macro Cancels left: Z-Drop Blade Chain

Mega Man's neutral will likely consist of more Z-Drop Blade Nair Recatches to pressure with pellets while still retaining access to blade for confirms, damage output, and pressure. He can still mix in Leaf Shield to whiff punish or dissuade aggression alongside use it in 90% of the same situations. There will still be aerial mixups into SH Buffered LS or shield damage setups to get it to shield poke and escape the corner. The move will still do a lot of percent on its own and trap people in it until the throw. He can still use it without hit confirming and mix up his escape to be safe. People are still going to complain. If anything, it just slows down Mega's gameplan a little because he has to be slightly more creative with how he operates or puts on damage, but the char will still play largely the same regardless.

Leffen's analysis on Pokemon Trainer was really interesting on his post tournament stream. He told people not to discredit Yeti using his char's strongest tools/playing to win and he mentioned some of the struggles he had if Ivysaur wasn't able to keep up in a certain MU. Like vs Yeti, he said it's hell because one single pellet stops razor leaf which eliminates a lot of pressure and no matter which Pokemon he switched to, because Mega Man bodied him in neutral, he could never actually get a kill without some crazy hard read or cheese. He said regardless of patch, Mega would still win the MU because of that: Leffen on PKMN Trainer vs Mega Man

Sorry for the long rant, too much Twitch Chat/Reddit/Twitter will do that to you I guess. Felt I just had to vent somewhere. I look forward to seeing how Yeti and the rest of the notable Mega Man players progress post-patch. I for one am not worried and can't wait for Yeti to prove himself once again.

 

[Itachi_]

Does Fox have a kill confirm like Wolf’s back air or forward tilt at higher %? I haven’t played fox, but Wolf’s kill confirms are part of the reason I like playing him.

 

[Thinkaman]

Leffen is absolutely correct that Mega Man is rough for PT, and arguably PT's worst matchup imo.

It's unusual for a character to be distinctly good against both Squirtle and Ivysaur. Ivysaur zones + low-% kills most characters in the game, and the few she doesn't tend to have speed deficiencies that Squirtle exploits. (It also so happens that a lot of them dislike Water Gun)

I can't think of anyone who does this except MM. He's heavy, fast enough to not get danced around, and able to wall out Ivysaur. He falls fast enough to minimize ivysaur's uair opportunities, while PT's options often expose them to MM bair. Ivysaur's zoning tool are imo better in general, but pellets counters razor leaf and MM fair is a good answer to Ivy bairs. Charizard is no help either--pellets are too low commitment to call out with Flare Blitz, and stuff the ground speed that Charizard's tools depend on. And none of them have a good answer for leaf shield, short of guessing correctly if he's going to discard it high or low, and jumping to punish accordingly.


How is Bowser against MM? What is the exact Tough Guy interaction here?

 

[Megamang]

Does Fox have a kill confirm like Wolf’s back air or forward tilt at higher %? I haven’t played fox, but Wolf’s kill confirms are part of the reason I like playing him.

I think you might be slightly missing the meaning of kill confirm. Kill confirm means as soon as you hit one move, you confirm that you get the kill with a combo/guaranteed trap. Usually this is most effective when you can chain a fast or large move into a harder-to-land kill move. Fox is actually the go to for kill confirm examples imo, nair into usmash gives him pretty insane mileage and nair is much safer to fish for than raw usmash.

wolf... That's kinda a point of discussion, he can do stuff like fair-bair and fair - flash, but I don't think any are guaranteed except with bad DI... which isn't implausible, because fair and nair are so fast you are likely to DI it poorly.


Thinkaman I used mega for bowsers for a long time, even when I was mainly playing shiek. People focus a ton on the pellet interactions, but honestly if I hit a pellet I should either hit nair or be safe, obviously being able to run through this isn't useless... The real issue for bowser was being huge means you took huge damage from metal blade and especially uair. I haven't played a strong bowser in ult so take this all with some salt, but another big issue for bowser was that his recovery is sorely lacking vs mega's edgeguarding. Dair, bair, now fair, metal blade toss, nair, leaf shield... all stuff that is kinda a nightmare for bowser to get through. And his recovery is only worse now.

A big reason I believed in megaman was that he can set up these positions really easily. You hit a nair? Try and edgeguard. Metal blade? Confirm it into bair, start edgeguard. Dashgrab into throw into edgeguard… etc etc. Being big really sucks vs megaman, tldr.


Edit: Also the really notable/scary thing about bowser is his ability to negate shield. Really powerful command grab, etc. But I shouldn't really be standing in shield vs bowser anyways, I've given up too much ground at that point. Keep zoning. Being in bowsers range fearing a mixup isn't so much an issue when your answer is 'just keep him out'. Shield -> nair was a good answer to tons of stuff, but I don't really shield as much in ultimate.

Bowser's saving grace is mega's meh disadvantage, the sets I recall dropping to bowser were mostly hard reads into kills at like 40. Dropzone fair is still scary for megaman, but metal blade covers you alrightish.

 

[Thinkaman]

A "kill confirm" is just a term for a specific type of (true) combo, from a move with less commitment (and maybe more accessibility) to one that can kill.

For example, Ryu's famous kill confirm is light utilt to shoryuken; he can throw out little, borderline-unpunishable u-tilts and yet reap the reward of his most punishable move for landing it.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the fact that Elegant was eleminated by a of all things, considering how hard Luigi bodies him off stage.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the fact that Elegant was eleminated by a of all things, considering how hard Luigi bodies him off stage.

Elegant kinda got bodied twice in this tournament by completely left-and-right field upsets. This is kind of unusual considering how dominate he was at pools and SoCal locals. Maybe he wasn't feeling it?

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the fact that Elegant was eleminated by a of all things, considering how hard Luigi bodies him off stage.

That matchup doesn't even approach difficult for Roy; at worst it's even. Roy outspeeds and outranges Luigi, making keeping him out fairly easy, and can edgeguard Luigi just as well as Luigi edgeguards him. While Chrom probably does slightly better, it's not a bad matchup for either.

I have no clue why Elegant underperformed, though.

On the subject of Roy, ZeRo now thinks he's better than Chrom now.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So that's cool, I guess.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Elegant kinda got bodied twice in this tournament by completely left-and-right field upsets. This is kind of unusual considering how dominate he was at pools and SoCal locals. Maybe he wasn't feeling it?

Just find it odd, more so because he completely bodied a player in R1 pools. And speaking of , I find amusing how despite having good players like MattyG and Blank as represents, no notable Chrom made it into top 48.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It does not get brought up that much Luigi's recovery is now legitimately bad with the nerfs to his cyclone and overall system changes. He likely gets edeguard hard from likes of Roy and similar swordies.

Honestly, no more rising cyclone is a bigger nerf to him than having a tether grab now

 

[Nate1080]

I'd like to point out that when it comes to grab range, it's actually not that bad. It's honestly no worse than say Mario's grab. It's actually very average, some have even said slightly above average but an overall average grab that can look kind of sneaky due to the visual range. It's basically a move that reaches far more than you expect. Probably because while those are some stubby leaves, Plant does lean forward a bit when he grabs. On top of that, Plant has apparently some of the fastest grab animation in the game with less lag than most.

It's definitely a looks can be deceiving because I too thought Plant must have some poor grab range but when you test it out and you add in the quick frame data to it, it's fairly solid IMO.

Could’ve fooled me. In an actual game it looks like I have to actually damn near touch people to be in grab range, while a lot of charcters seem to be able to stand almost a whole character away and grab Plant ( not talking about tether grabs either).

Either way, you actually have to approach them to take advantage of that grab frame data. Good luck doing that without getting bodied.

 

[MG_3989]

I was upset to see FOW, Shaky, and Bestness get so close to top 8 and lose right before. That said having three Ness mains in the top 40 should legitimatize him as a high tier character capable of competing in majors and super majors. I think FOW running into Dabuz was bad luck. Dabuz was playing out of his mind and Palu isn’t an ideal matchup for Ness. Still not unhappy with how Ness performed this tournament and three in top 64 is more than I could have hoped for. I would’ve loved to see Awestin competing too but obviously that’s not gonna happen

Also extremely impressed at the way Leffen played which was the other major storyline I was invested in this tournament. He’s for real. He lost it MkLEO but he didn’t get bodied and then he lost to a bad matchup with a very good player. I’d completely understand if he drops PT but I’d be dissapointed because nobody else is playing the character at that high of a level

Now we just have to see how the rest of the tourney shakes out

 

[The_Bookworm]

The main takeaway from watching ZeRo's video is that he is one of the people who definitely overexaggerates the Chrombo nerf (again, the nerf is only a factor if Chrom is at last stock). He has always has history of overexaggerating changes to seemingly "overcentrailzing" moves.

Roy has more combo routes in terms of the sourspots, but it is both position heavy and most likely not as rewarding as from combos from Chrom's consistent blade, basic or not. I also like how he thinks that fighting up close is good for the player, yet he refers to combos that rely on spacing. lol
Honestly, Chrom having the ability to apply pressure and damage at all ranges is too good pass up.

Again, Roy's recovery is not that good to make it a huge dealbreaker. It seems difficult to intercept on paper, but it actually not that hard to deal with. It is not hard to simply trade with the move, sending Roy too far away to recover. People also bring up that Roy has ways to mix up his recovery. Yes, that is true, but his recovery is more linear than people says. Roy often gets launched in angles where you have no choice but to go for a specific area to recover. From there, he is just a sitting duck for the edgeguarder. Roy's recovery is a recovery that seems difficult to deal with on paper, and maybe on practice, but is not hard to deal with in a real match.

The final thing is that he refers to the fact that Chrom's results dropped after the first few weeks of the game's release. That is true. However, Roy's results isn't really enduring much better. If you go to tournament result threads/data trackers, you could see that Chrom normally has simply better results than Roy. And that is also considering the fact the Roy players are normally dedicated Roy players that mained him since SSB4, and understands the character better than the newfound Chrom players who picked him up in a month.

I was upset to see FOW, Shaky, and Bestness get so close to top 8 and lose right before. That said having three Ness mains in the top 40 should legitimatize him as a high tier character capable of competing in majors and super majors. I think FOW running into Dabuz was bad luck. Dabuz was playing out of his mind and Palu isn’t an ideal matchup for Ness. Still not unhappy with how Ness performed this tournament and three in top 64 is more than I could have hoped for. I would’ve loved to see Awestin competing too but obviously that’s not gonna happen

Seems like Ness' old curse is back. In the late SSB4 competitive time, Ness players had a curse in which the bracket would randomly put them against eachother or against a top player disproportionally early on in bracket. It kind of prevented Ness' results from being higher than it should've been.
In this tournament, FOW is forced to eliminate Shaky from the tournament in order to proceed.

 

[MG_3989]

Seems like Ness' old curse is back. In the late SSB4 competitive time, Ness players had a curse in which the bracket would randomly put them against eachother or against a top player disproportionally early on in bracket. It kind of prevented Ness' results from being higher than it should've been.
In this tournament, FOW is forced to eliminate Shaky from the tournament in order to proceed.

That was one of my main disappointments last night. They were both playing really well with a legit shot at top 8 and they get matched up against each other. I wanted a top 8 from one of them but all three of them making top 64 and going even further than that still makes me think I’m not being biased saying Ness is a high tier character right now. Few characters have that kind of representation that high up at a super major and the one’s that do are all considered high tier top 15-20 characters in the game. Maybe one day Ness’s curse will be broken and he’ll make some of those top 8 showings and maybe even win one but it isn’t today. Still think he’s a high tier character

 

[Rocketjay8]

That was one of my main disappointments last night. They were both playing really well with a legit shot at top 8 and they get matched up against each other. I wanted a top 8 from one of them but all three of them making top 64 and going even further than that still makes me think I’m not being biased saying Ness is a high tier character right now. Few characters have that kind of representation that high up at a super major and the one’s that do are all considered high tier top 15-20 characters in the game. Maybe one day Ness’s curse will be broken and he’ll make some of those top 8 showings and maybe even win one but it isn’t today. Still think he’s a high tier character

Better luck next time mate, hope Ness gets into the top 8 in this game. Maybe the next Major will be kind to Ness.

 

[MG_3989]

Better luck next time mate, hope Ness gets into the top 8 in this game. Maybe the next Major will be kind to Ness.

We’ll see, still having a ton of fun watching this tournament and there have been some great matches. I think the characters we expected to be good are good pretty much. Not too many surprises high up

 

[Ark of Silence101]

The main takeaway from watching ZeRo's video is that he is one of the people who definitely overexaggerates the Chrombo nerf (again, the nerf is only a factor if Chrom is at last stock). He has always has history of overexaggerating changes to seemingly "overcentrailzing" moves.

Roy has more combo routes in terms of the sourspots, but it is both position heavy and most likely not as rewarding as from combos from Chrom's consistent blade, basic or not. I also like how he thinks that fighting up close is good for the player, yet he refers to combos that rely on spacing. lol
Honestly, Chrom having the ability to apply pressure and damage at all ranges is too good pass up.

Again, Roy's recovery is not that good to make it a huge dealbreaker. It seems difficult to intercept on paper, but it actually not that hard to deal with. It is not hard to simply trade with the move, sending Roy too far away to recover. People also bring up that Roy has ways to mix up his recovery. Yes, that is true, but his recovery is more linear than people says. Roy often gets launched in angles where you have no choice but to go for a specific area to recover. From there, he is just a sitting duck for the edgeguarder. Roy's recovery is a recovery that seems difficult to deal with on paper, and maybe on practice, but is not hard to deal with in a real match.

The final thing is that he refers to the fact that Chrom's results dropped after the first few weeks of the game's release. That is true. However, Roy's results is really enduring much better. If you go to tournament result threads/data trackers, you could see that Chrom normally has simply better results than Roy. And that is also considering the fact the Roy players are normally dedicated Roy players that mained him since SSB4, and understands the character better than the newfound Chrom players who picked him up in a month.


Seems like Ness' old curse is back. In the late SSB4 competitive time, Ness players had a curse in which the bracket would randomly put them against eachother or against a top player disproportionally early on in bracket. It kind of prevented Ness' results from being higher than it should've been.
In this tournament, FOW is forced to eliminate Shaky from the tournament in order to proceed.

Personally to me, who is better is a matter of preference, do you value consistency but are ready to deal with the fact you have a very exploitable recovery once you get sent off stage or are you willing to play high risk/high reward with a still bad but more manageable recovery?

 

[Itachi_]

think you might be slightly missing the meaning of kill confirm. Kill confirm means as soon as you hit one move, you confirm that you get the kill with a combo/guaranteed trap

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that a kill confirm was a move that guaranteed a KO at certain percentages. I've heard people refer to Wolf's bair as a kill confirm, which led me to think that bair = kill confirm.

 

[J0eyboi]

Roy has more combo routes in terms of the sourspots, but it is both position heavy and most likely not as rewarding as from combos from Chrom's consistent blade, basic or not.

Roy's sourspot combos are as rewarding as or more rewarding than Chrom's spaced combos in most situations. At worst, Roy deals 5% less damage; hardly anything to write home about.

Honestly, Chrom having the ability to apply pressure and damage at all ranges is too good pass up.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, Roy's sourspots are hardly ever a meaningful detriment outside of killing.

Again, Roy's recovery is not that good to make it a huge dealbreaker. It seems difficult to intercept on paper, but it actually not that hard to deal with. It is not hard to simply trade with the move, sending Roy too far away to recover. People also bring up that Roy has ways to mix up his recovery. Yes, that is true, but his recovery is more linear than people says. Roy often gets launched in angles where you have no choice but to go for a specific area to recover. From there, he is just a sitting duck for the edgeguarder.

I could talk about why this is wrong in theoretical terms, but I've already done that. Instead, let's go at this from another angle: This does not happen. Trading with Blazer is exceptionally rare for characters without swords, and situations in which Roy is forced to recover in a specific way or can't recover at all only happen when Roy has lost his jump, which is a lot easier said than done; even without his jump, Roy can often still mix up his recovery more than Chrom in the same situation.

Take this set where Hyper fought ScAtt as an example.

Despite ScAtt having played against Hyper for years, and despite frequently attempting to edgeguard Hyper, he only does so successfully 4 times across 5 games. Zero of those times were gimps, and only one of them, the third, was even close to unavoidable.

In case you were wondering, he could've jumped earlier or possibly airdodged to ledge to avoid the first and second edgeguards, and could've likely held down to avoid the untechable on the fourth.

If that's not enough proof for you, how about this set where he fights Tachyon's Pichu, a character with notoriously strong edgeguarding?

He loses 2 stocks to edgeguards in the entire 5-game set, neither of which were gimps and one of which was an extremely hard read, recovering multiple times from situations where Chrom would've been super dead.

There's not even any theory necessary here. It's a matter of fact that at higher levels of play, Roy doesn't get edgeguarded that much, and his recovery is better than Chrom's in significant and relevant ways.

 

[The_Bookworm]

As I've mentioned before in this thread, Roy's sourspots are hardly ever a meaningful detriment outside of killing.

I could talk about why this is wrong in theoretical terms, but I've already done that. Instead, let's go at this from another angle: This does not happen. Trading with Blazer is exceptionally rare for characters without swords, and situations in which Roy is forced to recover in a specific way or can't recover at all only happen when Roy has lost his jump, which is a lot easier said than done; even without his jump, Roy can often still mix up his recovery more than Chrom in the same situation.

Take this set where Hyper fought ScAtt as an example.

Despite ScAtt having played against Hyper for years, and despite frequently attempting to edgeguard Hyper, he only does so successfully 4 times across 5 games. Zero of those times were gimps, and only one of them, the third, was even close to unavoidable.

In case you were wondering, he could've jumped earlier or possibly airdodged to ledge to avoid the first and second edgeguards, and could've likely held down to avoid the untechable on the fourth.

If that's not enough proof for you, how about this set where he fights Tachyon's Pichu, a character with notoriously strong edgeguarding?

He loses 2 stocks to edgeguards in the entire 5-game set, neither of which were gimps and one of which was an extremely hard read, recovering multiple times from situations where Chrom would've been super dead.

There's not even any theory necessary here. It's a matter of fact that at higher levels of play, Roy doesn't get edgeguarded that much, and his recovery is better than Chrom's in significant and relevant ways.

I meant pressure on shield. This is mostly because Chrom's sword KO at all ranges and his consistent blade deals more shield damage and stun than Roy's sourspots.

In both of those examples, specifically the Pichu one, the opponent didn't really went offstage aggressive enough. Pichu could've went offstage earlier to throw out an aerial (like nair), before the up B started in order to gimp him. If Roy decides to go for the high recovery, he gets a Thunder for his troubles.

Snake and Mega Man are actually two of the handful of characters that actually do have a little bit of a troublesome time edgeguarding Roy. Mega Man edgeguarding options against Roy is a little problematic, although he could've went offstage shooting pellets at him. The hitbox of Roy's up B eats Remote Missile, and Snake's aerials are too slow in startup to properly catch Roy trying to up B to stage.

 

[bc1910]

Wolf isn't a fan of characters that can counter his neutral-setting ability, or don't have to play his game. Not many characters can do that reliably.

I'd agree with this. Wolf is often compared to her Smash 4 iteration but I'd say that Ultimate Sheik is actually pretty good against Wolf. She retains her strong neutral whilst outbuttoning Wolf up close and edgeguarding/ledge trapping him pretty hard. I could see it being close to even.

- Greninja is scary for the Japanese meta for a reason, and a lot of that reason has to do with Lea. Venia does tear stuff up over in NY, but Lea is likely another world class player.

I'm really disappointed with the lack of Greninja rep at Genesis. Most people recognise that he's a good character but he's still lacking that top level US player. Hopefully Venia keeps improving and gets to travel more; I don't think he's missed a podium finish at any of the NY tourneys he's been to.

I've pretty much gone full circle on Greninja; I think he's amazing in this game. He just has so much going for him and with the direction the game is heading and how strong offense and movement are, his poor OoS game is mattering less and less. A few top players have been sniffing around him (Leffen, Dabuz, MKLeo) so hopefully one of them will stick with him and he'll get that top level rep that he needs.

 

[MG_3989]

I’d like to see a top player stick with Greninja. Leffen did say that he’d likely be changing mains and I think Greninja would fit him well. Obviously he doesn’t mind the high skill ceiling (he mains fox in Melee) and I think he could be a mainstream player who could bring Greninja to his fullest potential. Dabuz looks set with Pali and Olimar and Leo has a laundry list of characters he says he’s going to play and hasn’t pulled out

 

[ZephyrZ]

I’d like to see a top player stick with Greninja. Leffen did say that he’d likely be changing mains and I think Greninja would fit him well. Obviously he doesn’t mind the high skill ceiling (he mains fox in Melee) and I think he could be a mainstream player who could bring Greninja to his fullest potential. Dabuz looks set with Pali and Olimar and Leo has a laundry list of characters he says he’s going to play and hasn’t pulled out

I'm pretty sure he saud its Wolf and Inkling who are on his radar right now. Besides, the reason he's switching mains is because he believed Pokemon Trainer was just more work then it was worth. He's a Melee guy first and Ultimate guy second, so it seems to me like he might find the skill ceiling to be more important to him in Ultimate.

 

[MG_3989]

I'm pretty sure he saud its Wolf and Inkling who are on his radar right now. Besides, the reason he's switching mains is because he believed Pokemon Trainer was just more work then it was worth. He's a Melee guy first and Ultimate guy second, so it seems to me like he might find the skill ceiling to be more important to him in Ultimate.

I know he was thinking Wolf and I knew he switched off PT because he’s more trouble than he’s worth but maybe he thinks Greninja has a higher overall ceiling than PT. I mean I’d be surprised if he picked up Greninja but I wouldn’t be shocked. Despite him being a Melee guy first I think he likes competing in Ultimate a lot more than he expected to and I don’t see him stopping grinding anytime soon. He might be even more dedicated after Genesis with how well he did. He’s the Melee player I can actually see sticking with the game and possibly winning majors. I wouldn’t be shocked if he tried to pick up Greninja and honestly I think he’s the pro who could do the most work with him

 

[J0eyboi]

I meant pressure on shield. This is mostly because Chrom's sword KO at all ranges and his consistent blade deals more shield damage and stun than Roy's sourspots.

The difference in shieldstun is negligible, literally a frame or less in most cases.

In both of those examples, specifically the Pichu one, the opponent didn't really went offstage aggressive enough. Pichu could've went offstage earlier to throw out an aerial (like nair), before the up B started in order to gimp him. If Roy decides to go for the high recovery, he gets a Thunder for his troubles.

Going offstage early is a commitment. It would've forced Tachyon to make a read on how Hyper was going to recover, because he wasn't able to cover all of Hyper's options at once. And Tachyon did actually go offstage like that, earlier in the set (0:42, 1:05, sort of 1:53, 3:18, et al). He stopped because he realized it wasn't working.

Snake and Mega Man are actually two of the handful of characters that actually do have a little bit of a troublesome time edgeguarding Roy.

When Snake and MM have trouble edgeguarding a character, it's not just going to be Snake and MM who have trouble. That's also not even true, see below.

Mega Man edgeguarding options against Roy is a little problematic,

How, exactly? Both his Fair and Bair are disjointed and kill, and he has 1200 different projectiles to throw at every possible angle. Megaman has all the tools to deal with Roy's recovery, and ScAtt in particular should be very practiced at edgeguarding Roy with MM, yet he only managed to take a stock twice in 3 games.

although he could've went offstage shooting pellets at him.

That's...what he did.

The hitbox of Roy's up B eats Remote Missile, and Snake's aerials are too slow in startup to properly catch Roy trying to up B to stage.

If Roy's recovery were as bad as you're making it out to be, this wouldn't be a problem, as Snake could just hit Roy with Nikita from above, where Up-B doesn't cover. Guess what didn't happen.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Ganon's frame data is bad. His fastest ground and air attacks are frame 7. His specials are all at least 14f. Smashes are 15-29f. He has a lot of lag too.

I'm not saying everything about him is fast but n-air, jab, f-tilt, dash attack, down-tilt, are faster than most attacks that the super-heavyweights possess. They are also his best and most useful attacks and these attacks alone make him better than a several characters I think are worse than him.

 

[Y2Kay]

Crucify me if you want, but if y'all really believe Fox can be as high as Top 3 or even best in the game, I don't see much reason for you to not have Greninja at least top 12.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the fact that Elegant was eleminated by a of all things, considering how hard Luigi bodies him off stage.

I haven't had time to catch up on Genesis 6 this weekend but this is interesting. Both characters should do well onstage, with Luigi having great combos on Roy and with Roy being able to juggle and combo Luigi from a farther range than Luigi can to Roy; not to mention that they both have very high damage outputs even off of a few hits. Although I'd have to agree that Luigi wins offstage, if the Roy player (again I haven't seen any of Genesis yet) outplayed Elegant/Luigi onstage and racked up damage quickly on the first stock, I'm not sure that the offstage game would matter as much.