Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Shaya]

Pacman feels like another one of the characters that is good, but sees no competitive play, so has no results, so people call them low tier, so they see even less play.

Pac's had results in Japan early IIRC.

This is actually still possible.

Brilliant, with 2+ pre-requisites, Fox can run through the hydrant.


-

Late, but re: Zero Suit,
loses to pacman and fox
positive match up vs anyone else
don't @ me
hyperbole


Genuine deficiencies in ZSS rn: Up tilt losing both intangible legs and trample and KO power is way too significant. It missing small characters still apparent.
Down Tilt's hitboxes/range has been purposely made very poor. This move was buffed in it's cooldown but still isn't a strong follow up move (poor angle) and .... needs its s4 hitbox on her foot back (it's currently inside her shoe rather than centred on it like the rest of her hitboxes are...)
Hitbox durations (Bair's 2 frames).

But she's... still really good.
And has a fair amount of meta development to be made.

She seems to lose to Fox badlyish; and this is because Fox has better fall speed than in S4 (something which is usually in her favour in like every other mu), and her up tilt has been neutered so she doesn't have CQC against Fox anymore either. I think focusing on fair usage over nair might be an answer. Dtilt being usable to actually shield drop punish or whiff punish literally anything would help a lot too.

Basically, her ground game got nerfed from S4 (WHY WHY WHY??) - this is really hurting her vs a character like Fox who outdoes her in vertical prowess in the air.

Short durations and more exposed hurtboxes also hurt vs fox, if you aren't frame perfect, you get hit with nair and die. His nair covering like 6-7 blocks in several frames vs our thin line hitboxes covering roughly 2 at best.


A lot of the perceived top tiers are going to be inherently difficult too, but she doesn't necessarily lose vs them.
Shorties are difficult and making a lot of people 'sad', because against most small chars in S4 we had grab = stock at almost any %.
But most shorties lack the range and mobility, she can play around them still IMO. It's just tricky. Dtilt is kinda okay against these chars too (although pikachu's dtilt has more range than zero suits). Even if grab isn't death, us hitting them with up-b oos at like 80% is, and side-b does at 100%ish sometimes too.

Her grab is a lot stronger neutral tool than in S4 due to more restricted set movements (15 frame dashes) and you can't air dodge into the ground vs grab anymore either. Even if reward is eh, a lot of chars have a hard time approaching her without getting pivot grabbed.

Choco beat Nietono's Pichu 2-0 in a set recently. Plays the MU like I've preached forever: play to not get hit (not very difficult) vs getting hits (can be very difficult). If you play smart neutral and don't misuse moves so you get simple whiff punished, they're probably mostly all doable.

Zoners and heavies are meta relevant at most levels of play and might end up taking up parts of top tier/most tournament threats.
She has the tools to outdo just about all of them. Zair, Side-B, paralyzer (for canceling projectiles, landing paralyzer with 7f less end lag/etc), top tier jump height for many zoners/projectilers, and still dumb/easier combos and simpler neutral for most of the heavies - some are prob close to even. I'm not sure about Bowser actually...


If she doesn't change she's probably gonna be a good tournament threat. But inherently inconsistent because of having moves that don't fit the standards/mould of other similar characters. This is going to lead to people dropping her and thinking she's bad.
Very few changes would be needed to make her a top threat; but because of how strong her tools can be vs so many chars, she might end up becoming too dominant match up wise vs some [again].

Also here's something I discovered yesterday:

My awesome senpai @ShayaJP discovered this a bit ago so I decided to make two quick clips on it. Simple high ‰ true combo with zAir catching jumps. Math for it in third tweet because typing on a phone sucks an twitter is too stupid to upload these from my pc. pic.twitter.com/nBuosBzw0g

— Maxi_Whatever (@Maxi_Whatever) January 14, 2019

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't think I can agree with you enough there. The amount of **** I get for playing this character vs. friends and getting called biased when I try to refute "Palu is top tier/5/10" or that "EF > Autoreticle shouldn't exist" is just the most annoying thing to me. It's why I rarely play her now despite wanting to go far with her. sigh

Anyways, I'd like to ask what everyone feels about . Upon toying with him for a few matches, I found she felt... Odd. Nerfed, but more fun, I suppose? His little water ball felt pretty useless because literally everything out-prioritizes it, and the uncharged version's stun lasts for a much smaller amount of time. Instapin is still a thing, but the kicks have endlag now so it can be punished. What's probably the worst feeling change to me is their up b lost all momentum carry when finishing the move.

Their combos are super tight now, dtilt > fair not being at lenient and uair feels weaker to me. Bair is a kill move now though.

In my opinion, they're the worst swordie. I'd like to see everyone else's opinions though.

If i were you and this is something I'd 100% do. I'd keep playing palu and continue to take my friends souls. Then I would tell them that they're bad and they should feel bad and to get good. I would also tell them that I desire a challenge.

Also would like to get some people's thoughts on this potential samus tech I found. I posted on the samus character board without a response. Basically it's an aerial charge shot canceled into tether.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I don't think I can agree with you enough there. The amount of **** I get for playing this character vs. friends and getting called biased when I try to refute "Palu is top tier/5/10" or that "EF > Autoreticle shouldn't exist" is just the most annoying thing to me. It's why I rarely play her now despite wanting to go far with her. sigh

Anyways, I'd like to ask what everyone feels about . Upon toying with him for a few matches, I found she felt... Odd. Nerfed, but more fun, I suppose? His little water ball felt pretty useless because literally everything out-prioritizes it, and the uncharged version's stun lasts for a much smaller amount of time. Instapin is still a thing, but the kicks have endlag now so it can be punished. What's probably the worst feeling change to me is their up b lost all momentum carry when finishing the move.

Their combos are super tight now, dtilt > fair not being at lenient and uair feels weaker to me. Bair is a kill move now though.

In my opinion, they're the worst swordie. I'd like to see everyone else's opinions though.

Don't let them discourage you from playing the character you want. They have no right to do that. Especially if they are playing on your Switch.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Anyways, I'd like to ask what everyone feels about .

Weak grounded game, subpar mobility, nerfed kill options, nerfed recovery, slower fair, seems like the weakest Fire Emblem character to me. I don't see why people would want to main Corrin when there are many better and (in my opinion) more fun sword users this time. Most of her notable players have dropped her already, too.

 

[J0eyboi]

They throw the axe and you have to do something

Do you though?

Here's the thing; getting hit by axe isn't that bad. It doesn't kill until quite high percents, doesn't really lead into anything unless you're already committed to the followup before it hits, and pops you up, meaning you are now in a great position to get back onstage, as the Belmonts' juggling game is significantly weaker than their ledgetrapping. Getting hit by axe vs belmonts is actually beneficial for you sometimes.

There's also the issue that throwing the axe takes 66 frames, which is long enough that it'll usually leave a gap in the Belmont's traps.

Being patient against the Belmonts is really good in general, which explains why everyone thought they were OP during week one, when no one could resist pressing every available button.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Do you though?

Here's the thing; getting hit by axe isn't that bad. It doesn't kill until quite high percents, doesn't really lead into anything unless you're already committed to the followup before it hits, and pops you up, meaning you are now in a great position to get back onstage, as the Belmonts' juggling game is significantly weaker than their ledgetrapping. Getting hit by axe vs belmonts is actually beneficial for you sometimes.

There's also the issue that throwing the axe takes 66 frames, which is long enough that it'll usually leave a gap in the Belmont's ledgetraps.

Being patient against the Belmonts is really good in general, which explains why everyone thought they were OP during week one, when no one could resist pressing every available button.

Getting hit by Axe sends you directly upwards and means they're going to throw another one or just trap your landing, and they're not really particularly bad at doing either of these (though their best option post-Axe is most always forward movement and landing traps/air pressure). The best way to actually deal with it is to clank it with an aerial if possible or just move at an angle that avoids it with good usage of directional airdodge or your aerial momentum. I'd never advise taking an Axe head on.

Also while the move overall lasts 66 frames, you're omitting important info: the Axe itself spawns on Frame 30. That means in 33 (its actually 36 I can't math) frames after its out, they can move behind it after it hits you and go from there. There's nothing guaranteed but you generally don't want this to happen.

The assertion that patience at the ledge is important when you're there vs. them however is completely true. It doesn't necessarily hurt their ledgetrap game a whole lot but it helps. At least until Belmonts start abusing the fact that you can make Holy Water fall down the ledge and cover ledgehangs too

 

[meleebrawler]

Do you though?

Here's the thing; getting hit by axe isn't that bad. It doesn't kill until quite high percents, doesn't really lead into anything unless you're already committed to the followup before it hits, and pops you up, meaning you are now in a great position to get back onstage, as the Belmonts' juggling game is significantly weaker than their ledgetrapping. Getting hit by axe vs belmonts is actually beneficial for you sometimes.

There's also the issue that throwing the axe takes 66 frames, which is long enough that it'll usually leave a gap in the Belmont's traps.

Being patient against the Belmonts is really good in general, which explains why everyone thought they were OP during week one, when no one could resist pressing every available button.

Does close to 18% on it's own in 1v1s, though. That's a lot of damage for a projectile that doesn't need charging.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Pac's had results in Japan early IIRC.

Wasn't this more or less how it was in Smash 4, as well? If I recall correctly, Japan was pretty much the only region that bothered to learn Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, and to a lesser extent, Mega Man. Or at least the region that produced by far the most results with those characters.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Wasn't this more or less how it was in Smash 4, as well? If I recall correctly, Japan was pretty much the only region that bothered to learn Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, and to a lesser extent, Mega Man. Or at least the region that produced by far the most results with those characters.

Japan has always been the home land for characters with patient/projectile based strategies. One of the main reasons why Melee in Japan has never reached anywhere near the peak Brawl and SSB4 set in Japan. There are simply more players there that tolerate and/or use patient/campy playstyles.

 

[J0eyboi]

Does close to 18% on it's own in 1v1s, though. That's a lot of damage for a projectile that doesn't need charging.

Would you rather take 18%, or get ledgetrapped by Belmonts for significantly more?

Getting hit by Axe sends you directly upwards and means they're going to throw another one or just trap your landing, and they're not really particularly bad at doing either of these (though their best option post-Axe is most always forward movement and landing traps/air pressure). The best way to actually deal with it is to clank it with an aerial if possible or just move at an angle that avoids it with good usage of directional airdodge or your aerial momentum. I'd never advise taking an Axe head on.

Again, I would much rather take the damage and deal with a juggle than choose another option and likely continue to be ledgetrapped. That may just be me and/or the characters I play, but I like the prospect of being above the Belmonts much more than being on ledge vs them, even if the former means I take 18% guaranteed.

Also while the move overall lasts 66 frames, you're omitting important info: the Axe itself spawns on Frame 30. That means in 33 frames after its out, they can move behind it after it hits you and go from there. There's nothing guaranteed but you generally don't want this to happen.

I know, but a lot of the time, especially at higher percents, they seem like they have a hard time getting good pressure after landing an axe. Also, in order to get that pressure, they have to commit before the axe actually hits, which means they're not continuing to ledgetrap, which means you can get off ledge.

The assertion that patience at the ledge is important when you're there vs. them however is completely true. It doesn't necessarily hurt their ledgetrap game a whole lot but it helps. At least until Belmonts start abusing the fact that you can make Holy Water fall down the ledge and cover ledgehangs too

Do you mean the item, or the fire? If the latter, that's actually kinda terrifying.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Would you rather take 18%, or get ledgetrapped by Belmonts for significantly more?



Again, I would much rather take the damage and deal with a juggle than choose another option and likely continue to be ledgetrapped. That may just be me and/or the characters I play, but I like the prospect of being above the Belmonts much more than being on ledge vs them, even if the former means I take 18% guaranteed.



I know, but a lot of the time, especially at higher percents, they seem like they have a hard time getting good pressure after landing an axe. Also, in order to get that pressure, they have to commit before the axe actually hits, which means they're not continuing to ledgetrap, which means you can get off ledge.



Do you mean the item, or the fire? If the latter, that's actually kinda terrifying.

The fire. If you position it right it will drop down off the ledge and descend upon whoever's hanging there. Its similar to a trick Mii Gunner could do in Smash 4 (maybe here too?) with Flame Pillar.

I also just edited the post but didn't change the 33, I refuse to redact that I suck at math.

Will also concede for some chars who have strong escape options, taking the axe and then dipping out of the pressure later can be good (ZSS, for instance) but in general I wouldn't be privy to want to be hit by it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

One thing im starting to realize because of ultimate is how bull**** some of the top tiers in smash 4 were. A lot of them had a lot of ridiculous stuff, I normally dont like seeing nerfs and I feel like some characters got nerfed too hard however good riddance to some of the bull**** that was allowed in sm4sh.

 

[trickroom]

Japan has always been the home land for characters with patient/projectile based strategies. One of the main reasons why Melee in Japan has never reached anywhere near the peak Brawl and SSB4 set in Japan. There are simply more players there that tolerate and/or use patient/campy playstyles.

I would actually amend that to say the mechanically challenging projectile characters -- those low tiers where you put in a lot of work just to land some projectiles on Cloud before he would upair you ten times -- are the ones Japan mastered better. "Easier" projectile characters had most of their best rep coming from the West, namely TL (Yetiyana, Hyuga, etc.) ROB (8bitman and others vastly overshadowed Japan), Robin (Dath), and even Mega Man (Scatt) to an extent. It was the real big brain lab monster characters that Japan had a lock on, and even some less training-mode characters looked to Japan for innovating their hardest tech (Kameme/Abandango footstools, anyone?).

 

[MG_3989]

One thing im starting to realize because of ultimate is how bull**** some of the top tiers in smash 4 were. A lot of them had a lot of ridiculous stuff, I normally dont like seeing nerfs and I feel like some characters got nerfed too hard however good riddance to some of the bull**** that was allowed in sm4sh.

I didn’t play Smash 4 but I know how broken Bayonetta was and Diddy was at one point. The last game I played is Brawl and there certainly isn’t a Brawl Meta Knight in this game. Overall this feels like the most balanced Smash game I’ve played so far which is an achievement considering there are over 70 characters

 

[bc1910]

I know you’ve talked about Kirby already, but why do you think Meta Knight is bottom 2 over , , or ?

Whilst I hesitate to shout "worst character" one month into the meta, I'll toss my hat in the ring and agree with Thinkaman ; I think Game & Watch is very lacking.

Having just tanked online and spent two gruelling hours grinding G&W back into Elite I'm probably suffering from PTSD, but I can say that G&W is the only character I've played so far who actively feels weak in the majority of situations.

Through his new animations, a shrinking of his hitboxes/character model or some combination of the two his range is abysmal on a good chunk of his moves. He has horrible options against swordies and is relegated to punishing landings, but his grab is so awful that only dash attack can reliably do this from a safe range which leads to little guaranteed reward.

HIs new Fair is simply garbage. The bomb drop hitbox doesn't combo into the explosion itself, if you do it too low to the ground the bomb doesn't activate, and opponents can cancel it with an attack. Without a doubt one of the worst non-Mac aerials in the game, I don't know what they were thinking. Posing absolutely no front-facing threat in midair is horrible. Nair is still a good move but hits upwards and takes a while to come out in front. I'm undecided on the new Uair, I feel like it's better in most juggling situations but the fact it pretty much can never kill isn't nice.

Nothing about G&W felt powerful to me (Side B 9 notwithstanding) besides his smashes, which are thankfully still safe and powerful but they are still too slow to hold him together. Weak neutral, weak punish game and average to below average disadvantage (besides recovery) make him wholly underwhelming.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Their ledge trapping is good vs anyone. They throw holy water and you can't ledge stand or attack. They throw the axe and you have to do something. Ftilt covers the rolling and tanking holy water options. You can't pressure them from the ledge.

Axe is laggy but cross and holy water last until f44 or 45. Wolf's blaster last 49f. And those control space in front of them for a long time.

How does parrying help vs a spaced whip attack?

Attacker frozen for 9 frames plus the actual shield hitstop. Defender can attack instantly.

Kinda sorta definitely a really big deal.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Whilst I hesitate to shout "worst character" one month into the meta, I'll toss my hat in the ring and agree with Thinkaman ; I think Game & Watch is very lacking.

Having just tanked online and spent two gruelling hours grinding G&W back into Elite I'm probably suffering from PTSD, but I can say that G&W is the only character I've played so far who actively feels weak in the majority of situations.

Through his new animations, a shrinking of his hitboxes/character model or some combination of the two his range is abysmal on a good chunk of his moves. He has horrible options against swordies and is relegated to punishing landings, but his grab is so awful that only dash attack can reliably do this from a safe range which leads to little guaranteed reward.

HIs new Fair is simply garbage. The bomb drop hitbox doesn't combo into the explosion itself, if you do it too low to the ground the bomb doesn't activate, and opponents can cancel it with an attack. Without a doubt one of the worst non-Mac aerials in the game, I don't know what they were thinking. Posing absolutely no front-facing threat in midair is horrible. Nair is still a good move but hits upwards and takes a while to come out in front. I'm undecided on the new Uair, I feel like it's better in most juggling situations but the fact it pretty much can never kill isn't nice.

Nothing about G&W felt powerful to me (Side B 9 notwithstanding) besides his smashes, which are thankfully still safe and powerful but they are still too slow to hold him together. Weak neutral, weak punish game and average to below average disadvantage (besides recovery) make him wholly underwhelming.

His range isn't that bad, and that fact that a lot of them are disjointed does not make it a big deal.

Also, I feel as people are using his new fair incorrectly. The fact that the bomb doesn't come out when you are too low is a matter of the user not positioning it incorrectly. The fact that it can be canceled by a hitbox is a weakness that is blown out of proportion. It is an issue if the opponent if the opponent is Brawl MK throwing out safe hitboxes 24/7 in every siongle scenario, but it really isn't. The new fair covers a lot of space with the new explosion radius, and it has useful edgeguarding capabilities (especially against recoveries with no hitboxes whatsoever). Against opponents with hitboxes, the G&W player needs to time and position the bomb so that the explosion will clip the opponent without touching the hitboxes (trust me, it is easier than it sounds). I feel as people focus on the bomb itself, and not focus on the applications of the explosion.

Some of the weaknesses that you mentioned weaknesses G&W shared in SSB4. However, I think people are kind of overlooking the fact that G&W retains his ridiculous damage output, made even better thanks to how ridiculous his new up air is for juggling. His edgeguarding is actually kind of ridiculous, stemming from the airdodge nerf, to the ridiculous KO power his back air has, and the fact that he retains his long distanced recovery. Losing toot toot kind of sucks (it was a hard to land KO confirm anyways), but he still has other ways to KO the opponent, with an example being that his down smash now buries the opponents.

People thought of SSB4 G&W as very lacking as well, but opinions of him grew overtime thanks to his dedicated players. Give Ult G&W some time to grow.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, after continued play, continues to be the only character I groan when I get. (Well, I also groan at Ryu/Ken, but any poor performance there is a personal problem I accept.)

People thought of SSB4 G&W as very lacking as well, but opinions of him grew overtime thanks to his dedicated players. Give Ult G&W some time to grow.

I feel like the levers by which G&W was optimized so heavily though, are clearly absent in this game. I do not at all expect even the most dedicated G&W players to squeeze that level of juice from the lemon that is his new fair.

and Brawler feel underwhelming but don't seem to lag much behind the rest of the pack. in particular is surely better than his Smash 4 incarnation, especially on any comparable stage, but is being held back by any imaginable tourney stage list being far worse for him than Smash 4's. An engine that allows Mac to push his ground absurdity to the limit is better for him than an engine that made him sort of a one-trick-pony slave to specific kill-confirms.

Also for all her flaws is a TON of fun to play; fishing rod is way worse than new players think and way better than people dismissing it think. (Hint: It's made for the air)

and I am skeptical of dismissals. While I wouldn't be placing either of them in my top half, they are fitted for such a narrow mindset of player that it's inevitable that most people will underrate them. I expect both to have more polarizing matchups than most characters though, regardless of wherever they end up.

I have no clue on to be honest. It's hard to evaluate because the sort of lab-obsessed Johnny who would be your prime Rosa players are also the sort of players who are most intrinsically attracted to new toys. ( would also have this problem, but he himself has more new toys and is of course fantastic now, so it's not actually analogous.) No matter how you slice it though, I am not hearing a peep out of Rosa-ville. (Also see: Ice Babies)

I am glad Shaya has seen the light on how wacko is. I said before that Pac's grab was the single most sensitive move in Smash 4, where even modest changes could break a character and even reshape the meta. Lo and behold, here we are. (Thankfully not pushed into "meta-centralizing" though) The difference is that the significant speed creep of Smash Ultimate's environment is FAR worse for Pac-Man, enough to keep him in check--be thankful we aren't fighting this Pac-Man in the slower context of Smash 4.

I feel like is in a vaguely similar position, and sort of instantly disregard anyone saying DH is bottom. To me he does feel like one of the most buffed characters, alongside Ganondorf.

Remaining bearish on Belmonts. The 2 consistent trends we see in Smash games are for defensive options to become more optimized the yet for game to become faster (as people understand this optimization and stop wasting time with junk that does work in the neutral.) I suspect the Belonts hate both of these trends more than any other character. (Daily reminder of how horrible their grabs are, btw.)

You know who I have heard nothing about? . What's that guy's deal?

 

[J0eyboi]

You know who I have heard nothing about? . What's that guy's deal?

As I understand it, he's a very different character. PK Freeze is now an edgeguarding tool, which is certainly better than whatever it was in Smash 4. His grab game is a lot worse now, between weaker killthrows, no footstool combos, and a worse dthrow that prevents dthrow-uair from still being a thing (thing meaning kill confirm, it's still a combo). He can DJC with Zair now for some reason. Magnet's a bit better as a movement option and attack, having low enough lag to combo off of and be safe on shield (Update: If I understand the shieldstun formula correctly, it's actually neutral on block, which is insane).

I honestly don't know what to think of him. His kit seems a lot less cohesive, but he has some really good **** mixed in there.

Update 2: Yep, Magnet is neutral on block. That's cool.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah, after continued play, continues to be the only character I groan when I get. (Well, I also groan at Ryu/Ken, but any poor performance there is a personal problem I accept.)



I feel like the levers by which G&W was optimized so heavily though, are clearly absent in this game. I do not at all expect even the most dedicated G&W players to squeeze that level of juice from the lemon that is his new fair.

and Brawler feel underwhelming but don't seem to lag much behind the rest of the pack. in particular is surely better than his Smash 4 incarnation, especially on any comparable stage, but is being held back by any imaginable tourney stage list being far worse for him than Smash 4's. An engine that allows Mac to push his ground absurdity to the limit is better for him than an engine that made him sort of a one-trick-pony slave to specific kill-confirms.

Also for all her flaws is a TON of fun to play; fishing rod is way worse than new players think and way better than people dismissing it think. (Hint: It's made for the air)

and I am skeptical of dismissals. While I wouldn't be placing either of them in my top half, they are fitted for such a narrow mindset of player that it's inevitable that most people will underrate them. I expect both to have more polarizing matchups than most characters though, regardless of wherever they end up.

I have no clue on to be honest. It's hard to evaluate because the sort of lab-obsessed Johnny who would be your prime Rosa players are also the sort of players who are most intrinsically attracted to new toys. ( would also have this problem, but he himself has more new toys and is of course fantastic now, so it's not actually analogous.) No matter how you slice it though, I am not hearing a peep out of Rosa-ville. (Also see: Ice Babies)

I am glad Shaya has seen the light on how wacko is. I said before that Pac's grab was the single most sensitive move in Smash 4, where even modest changes could break a character and even reshape the meta. Lo and behold, here we are. (Thankfully not pushed into "meta-centralizing" though) The difference is that the significant speed creep of Smash Ultimate's environment is FAR worse for Pac-Man, enough to keep him in check--be thankful we aren't fighting this Pac-Man in the slower context of Smash 4.

I feel like is in a vaguely similar position, and sort of instantly disregard anyone saying DH is bottom. To me he does feel like one of the most buffed characters, alongside Ganondorf.

Remaining bearish on Belmonts. The 2 consistent trends we see in Smash games are for defensive options to become more optimized the yet for game to become faster (as people understand this optimization and stop wasting time with junk that does work in the neutral.) I suspect the Belonts hate both of these trends more than any other character. (Daily reminder of how horrible their grabs are, btw.)

You know who I have heard nothing about? . What's that guy's deal?

G&W players are still playing the character in the same pace as before. Pretty much all of them (including Maister) is simply picking up where they have left off. They are pretty optimistic on their character (like before in SSB4).

Still haven't really heard much about Isabelle. I saw that Dabuz put her low in his tier list. What exactly makes her underwhelming in comparison to the cast and/or to Villager?

Both of these Pokemon does have quite a bit of promise. While some top players are more commonly see Incineroar as a potential viable character thanks to his tools, more are skeptimistic on Puff. However, there are some players who think that Puff is pretty good, with most of those players being from Melee. I guess coming from a background where Puff is powerful vs a background where Puff is trash, while have views tip if the character is good or not.

Doesn't look promising in the current moment, but she has a lot of potential in attack canceling being a thing. A pretty technical character that I am not expecting to get good results immediately.

Pac-Man players does simply seem like they are picking up where they left off from SSB4. Pac-Man players rose to high limits at 2018 in SSB4, and they are translating it to Ultimate. Interesting to see the direction the character will go.

Duck Hunt is in a weird position. Despite being a pure improvement from SSB4, stemming from improved hitboxes (translated to notably to their smash attacks), as well as other QoL buffs. Despite this, some players such as ZeRo have been putting Duck Hunt near the bottom of the tier list for whatever reason. Idk why. Maybe they think that Duck Hunt's playstyle is too slow for Ultimate (despite having frame 1 can on command and a disjionted forward air). Some players such as Dabuz have been putting Duck Hunt rather high, so there is that.

Lucas is in a weird position. He ended up getting another mixed bag in a transition (been through that story already lol). It is for the better though: his new aggressive playstyle suits the game way better than his old SSB4 playstyle. However, doing so sacrifices his previously damaging grab combos. I feel as Lucas is slightly better than in SSB4, but not much better, while almost everyone else below him in SSB4 got more significant improvements.

Views on him is really.... weird. While some players think that he is rather underwhelming, some players such as ZeRo, Salem, and Dabuz puts him really high in their tier lists, even higher than Ness sometimes (which is completely silly imo). I feel as it is because people are comparing Lucas to Ness as similar in terms of offense, then just working it from there, when it is not actually true. People also cite their reasons for putting him that high is for how ridiculous his PK Freeze is. Okay. Lotsa luck trying to hit someone with it. It should also be noted that people who think of him highly in this game, also thinks that he is underrated at some point in SSB4, so there is that. Not sure if it is from character bias or what, but it is an interesting (and somewhat aggravating) trend I am noticing.

 

[Dbap]

As I understand it, he's a very different character. PK Freeze is now an edgeguarding tool, which is certainly better than whatever it was in Smash 4. His grab game is a lot worse now, between weaker killthrows, no footstool combos, and a worse dthrow that prevents dthrow-uair from still being a thing. He can DJC with Zair now for some reason. Magnet's a bit better as a movement option and attack, having low enough lag to combo off of and be safe on shield.

I honestly don't know what to think of him. His kit seems a lot less cohesive, but he has some really good **** mixed in there.

Yeah there's a much higher emphasis on edgeguarding and Fair/Pkfire/Zair spacing to build damage.

His edgeguarding is extremely versatile, I highly disagree with that (really weird) tier list leffen just made about edgeguarding. Lucas has so so many options to edgeguard the opponent, he can work every angle that exists but it takes alot of skill to know what u can make it back from and to make it back. I think eventually someone will demonstrate his gimping at the top level. Until then he'll remain in mediocrity due to his crap OOS game and lack of combo throws.

He has more kill options than most characters along with the edgeguarding, stage spike killconfirms are well and alive.

 

[meleebrawler]

G&W players are still playing the character in the same pace as before. Pretty much all of them (including Maister) is simply picking up where they have left off. They are pretty optimistic on their character (like before in SSB4).

Still haven't really heard much about Isabelle. I saw that Dabuz put her low in his tier list. What exactly makes her underwhelming in comparison to the cast and/or to Villager?

It seems to do well with Game & Watch, you must harness ultimate lameness. He is great at punishing, and his bacon is hard to circumvent now that he can aim it, not to mention Oil Panic now doubling as a reflector so almost any kind of projectile zoning is nearly useless against him now. But the minute you lose patience because the opponent is waiting out Chef, instead of slowly advancing with it, is the moment you usually get bodied.

I'm no Isabelle expert, but I take it her neutral zoning just isn't as good as Villager's who has rockets to fire and complement his slingshots, which makes her less consistent. Scarier when she does manage to take control of the stage, though.

 

[MG_3989]

Yeah there's a much higher emphasis on edgeguarding and Fair/Pkfire/Zair spacing to build damage.

His edgeguarding is extremely versatile, I highly disagree with that (really weird) tier list leffen just made about edgeguarding. Lucas has so so many options to edgeguard the opponent, he can work every angle that exists but it takes alot of skill to know what u can make it back from and to make it back. I think eventually someone will demonstrate his gimping at the top level. Until then he'll remain in mediocrity due to his crap OOS game and lack of combo throws.

He has more kill options than most characters along with the edgeguarding, stage spike killconfirms are well and alive.

That was a really strange tier list and true axis’s were weird and barely made sense. I think he misrated a lot of characters and I can’t think of many characters with better edgeguarding tools than Lucas

 

[Nobie]

Last week, Venom decided to go with Ryu (along with Ridley) over Ken, at least when it comes to fighting Ally's Snake.

It's interesting to me that he would go for the less mobile Ryu over Ken, but Venom must feel like there's something to Ryu that potentially lets him handle Snake better. Perhaps the Snake matchup in general is determined less by speed and more by something else? Ability to capitalize on mistakes, maybe?

 

[meleebrawler]

Last week, Venom decided to go with Ryu (along with Ridley) over Ken, at least when it comes to fighting Ally's Snake.

It's interesting to me that he would go for the less mobile Ryu over Ken, but Venom must feel like there's something to Ryu that potentially lets him handle Snake better. Perhaps the Snake matchup in general is determined less by speed and more by something else? Ability to capitalize on mistakes, maybe?

Shakunetsu probably has an easier time getting through grenades and missiles, or at least stalling them.

Also, Ken is only faster on the ground, which Snake can turn into a no-man's land.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Would you rather take 18%, or get ledgetrapped by Belmonts for significantly more?

I'm sorry, but is this supposed to be an argument against the Belmonts having opressive ledgetrapping? "Just let them hit you for a free 18% so you don't have to deal with their nonsense"? The Belmonts ledgetrap like Robin but have even more options. Or are here going to start arguing that Robin and Dedede have underwhelming ledge trapping too?

I'm not going to argue about their viability as a whole since my experience with them has been pretty mixed but their ledge trapping is undoubtedly pretty nasty. I don't see how anyone can deny that when they have such good option coverage.

 

[J0eyboi]

Shakunetsu probably has an easier time getting through grenades and missiles, or at least stalling them.

If that was his reasoning, he should've used Shakunetsu a bit more often. The first time he used it was when he was at 1 stock and 96% during the first game he pulled out Ryu for.

 

[Lavani]

Last week, Venom decided to go with Ryu (along with Ridley) over Ken, at least when it comes to fighting Ally's Snake.

It's interesting to me that he would go for the less mobile Ryu over Ken, but Venom must feel like there's something to Ryu that potentially lets him handle Snake better. Perhaps the Snake matchup in general is determined less by speed and more by something else? Ability to capitalize on mistakes, maybe?

I feel like it's probably just an experimental pick, but if I had to find reasons

- The bulk of his approaches are jumpins, and Ryu/Ken have the same air speed
- Easier time killing. A lot of the match is spent maneuvering around explosives, and he makes it count when he gets in, with most of his kills being fairly early TSRK confirms.
- Ken's multihits may or may not offer more opportunity for nades to interrupt

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Talking about a bit. If Inkling's roller was not a thing. I seriously think R.O.B's buffed Arm-Rotor would be the Side-B special everyone would be complaining about. Because seriously its pretty nuts now. It can deal up to 20% damage, can be used to punish rolls for ledge-trapping.., and kill pretty early near-the edge, and can kill characters that try to use linear-horizonal recovers near-instantly offstage. Plus it can be kill confirmed of his also really good n-air or gyro at certain percents. That move is flying under-the radar for how powerful it is for sure

But its not something you can just throw out whenever in netural, so it aint perfect

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm sorry, but is this supposed to be an argument against the Belmonts having opressive ledgetrapping?

Sort of?

I'm not saying taking 18 free % is a great outcome, and you should still try to avoid axe if doing so won't force you into a much more dangerous button. However, the fact that the Belmonts' main way to hit the ledge gives you a way out of being ledgetrapped, combined with all of their ways to hit ledge (that I know of, I could be wrong and please tell me if I am) being reactable, takes a fair bit of the pressure out of their ledge pressure. It becomes a lot less scary to just hang on ledge, analyze their patterns, and try and find a gap than it is against someone like, say, Mario, even though Mario is much worse at trapping ledge options. It doesn't make their ledgetrapping any less numerically oppressive, but it can make it less mentally oppressive, which helps.

 

[ZephyrZ]

However, the fact that the Belmonts' main way to hit the ledge gives you a way out of being ledgetrapped,

This is the part of your logic that doesn't sit well with me. If they hit you that means they still successfully ledge trapped you. Maybe they didn't put you back in a ledge trapping position (although now you have to figure out a way to land, so you're still in disadvantage) but ultimately they still won that exchange.

Although I do agree that having a good mental game and knowing when to cut your losses is important. I guess I'd also rather risk getting hit by an Axe then rush into a Holy Water -> F-Smash combo, so that's fair. I'd still much rather be in a ledge trapping position against Mario then against a Belmont though.

 

[Game7a1]

G&W players are still playing the character in the same pace as before. Pretty much all of them (including Maister) is simply picking up where they have left off. They are pretty optimistic on their character (like before in SSB4).

I mean, the views on him from G&W players in early Ultimate are sure better than the early views of . I tend to see that the US scene, on average, is more pessimistic of G&W than other regions. He's already racked up decent results if you look in the tournament results thread, which I think has gone unnoticed in this thread. While it is a month into the game, if he was as bad of a character as some suggest, he wouldn't be getting a good amount of results as he has already.

It seems to do well with Game & Watch, you must harness ultimate lameness. He is great at punishing, and his bacon is hard to circumvent now that he can aim it, not to mention Oil Panic now doubling as a reflector so almost any kind of projectile zoning is nearly useless against him now. But the minute you lose patience because the opponent is waiting out Chef, instead of slowly advancing with it, is the moment you usually get bodied.

He's a bait-and-punish character still, but with reworked and new tools, his gameplan has had changes compared to his older iterations. In Smash 4, a patient G&W was usually the optimal one because he had tools to maintain the lead and force approaches when having a lead (like his D-Throw combos and Up-Smash). But in that game, he had a linear neutral and could get juggled pretty bad. In this game, it's no different for him to play patient or lame. In addition to what you have listed, he still maintains quick damage-racking moves and combos and still has a good dash-to-action to perform moves quickly (something I think is vital for his neutral gameplan to make up for the reduced range on moves). While I did mention earlier that his off-stage recovery game got worse due to Fire expending his double jump, he still has Bucket Jumping to mix up his recovery and recover from low places (so long as he maintains he double jump). With B-air and D-air having increased knockback, his ability to seal stocks off-stage are still good. Chef by the ledge can be a good way to rack up damage as well and force poor recovery choices. However, he still doesn't like being above an opponent, he's still light, and with F-air not being a reliable approach option, he lost one way to approach or defend from the air.

While people lament the loss of Toot-Toot, Sweetspot D-Smash's ability to bury opponent more than makes up for that because it can lead into moves like F-Smash at higher percents, which is far more consistent and deadlier than Smash 4 D-Throw -> Up-Air. If you're still trying to play as , you're not going to do well not just in KO confirms, but neutral as well. I said in the beginning of the thread that he has a learning-curve of sorts (mostly with F-air), and so far, it's been adjusting to his moveset and taking advantage of it and the new engine. I myself enjoy the character and still see him as somewhat viable.

 

[J0eyboi]

This is the part of your logic that doesn't sit well with me. If they hit you that means they still successfully ledge trapped you. Maybe they didn't put you back in a ledge trapping position (although now you have to figure out a way to land, so you're still in disadvantage) but ultimately they still won that exchange.

Would it be clearer if I said "gives you a way out of being vortexed?" Obviously, being forced to take an axe to the face is still being ledgetrapped, but it's less rewarding than if you chose some option that let them hit you offstage again into the same situation. In other words, I meant "it gives you a way out of being ledgetrapped again."

I'd still much rather be in a ledge trapping position against Mario then against a Belmont though.

No, absolutely. Against Mario, it's a lot easier to get off the ledge. The Belmonts would kill for a fast option that hits ledge and sends offstage though. It would make their ledgetrapping way more oppressive.

 

[LancerStaff]

Speaking of Belmonts, their active frames are whack... Most of their whip moves have two frames per. Fully extended at least but like, wow.

 

[J0eyboi]

So I spent a bit of time in the lab with the Mother Boys. They're... interesting, to say the least. Magnet combined with their unique double jump and great air accel offers a lot of tricky air movement, while also having a hitbox and protecting them from projectiles. Both seem like they have a lot of potential combo optimization to be done, too.

Of the two, I'd definitely say Ness feels stronger, in part because his Magnet is much better (I think that move's really important for him now). It comes out faster (frame 7 vs frame 19) with a huge amount of active frames (idk why this thing has 6 active frames, but it does). It also combos better, having set knockback that allows it to combo at any % while Lucas' doesn't combo at all at higher %s, and has less total frames, having an FAF of 25 to Lucas' 28. Beyond that, a lot of Ness' moves just seem better, especially his aerials, which are important for such a clearly air-based character. That said, Lucas is almost certainly harder to play than Ness, and generally plays fairly differently from him, so I could be wrong.

I do think they're both a bit slept on maybe? Honestly, I still feel like I don't know enough about these characters to pass any sort of judgement. They certainly seem fun, at least. Ness in particular is a lot of fun to mess around with.

 

[Browny]

Also here's something I discovered yesterday:

My awesome senpai @ShayaJP discovered this a bit ago so I decided to make two quick clips on it. Simple high ‰ true combo with zAir catching jumps. Math for it in third tweet because typing on a phone sucks an twitter is too stupid to upload these from my pc. pic.twitter.com/nBuosBzw0g

— Maxi_Whatever (@Maxi_Whatever) January 14, 2019

Sorry but all you have to do is DI away and its no longer true at a range of %'s. I managed to get at least 3 frames of leeway by doing that as you have to delay her flip kick to catch him.

Go frame by frame, set up the hit, change CPU to 'control' on impact and hold away on a joycon or something. Pretty easy to verify that.

 

[Terotrous]

Anyways, I'd like to ask what everyone feels about .

I feel that Corrin is basically the new Sheik. Has pretty good neutral, builds % fast, doesn't ever kill you. Unless you land tipper FSmash near the ledge at like 100%, expect the opponent to consistently live to 150%+ when your grabs start killing. I've sometimes made the hardest of hard reads with UpB above the stage and it still doesn't kill at like 120% wth.

I feel like Corrin is not completely unusable, but you have to be outdamaging your opponent like 3:2 in order to win. Probably mid tier or something.

 

[DJ3DS]

Talking about a bit. If Inkling's roller was not a thing. I seriously think R.O.B's buffed Arm-Rotor would be the Side-B special everyone would be complaining about. Because seriously its pretty nuts now. It can deal up to 20% damage, can be used to punish rolls for ledge-trapping.., and kill pretty early near-the edge, and can kill characters that try to use linear-horizonal recovers near-instantly offstage. Plus it can be kill confirmed of his also really good n-air or gyro at certain percents. That move is flying under-the radar for how powerful it is for sure

But its not something you can just throw out whenever in netural, so it aint perfect

ROB is a character whose current success I think surprises everyone, most of all those of us who play him!

His Side B has been hugely buffed, to be sure. The SDI changes make it link perfectly now, and the duration and its ability to drag towards the blastzone make it a very strong edgeguarding tool that kills offstage very early. The damage (21.6 with all hits in training, so even more fresh) makes it a very potent combo finisher as well.

The question mark hovering over ROB at the minute is that whilst he is seeing plenty of results and making plenty of top 8 appearances, he is not as often converting them into first place finishes - with the exception of WaDi, who is winning back to back tournaments with him. We've not yet seen him make an appearance at a tournament with too many big names yet, but he will be attending Glitch 6 this weekend so keep an eye out for that to see how the character does at the very top level:

Spoiler

We will also get to see more of 8bitman, one of the other really good ROB players who even took MKLeo to game 5 at Smash Conference.

 

[MG_3989]

So I spent a bit of time in the lab with the Mother Boys. They're... interesting, to say the least. Magnet combined with their unique double jump and great air accel offers a lot of tricky air movement, while also having a hitbox and protecting them from projectiles. Both seem like they have a lot of potential combo optimization to be done, too.

Of the two, I'd definitely say Ness feels stronger, in part because his Magnet is much better (I think that move's really important for him now). It comes out faster (frame 7 vs frame 19) with a huge amount of active frames (idk why this thing has 6 active frames, but it does). It also combos better, having set knockback that allows it to combo at any % while Lucas' doesn't combo at all at higher %s, and has less total frames, having an FAF of 25 to Lucas' 28. Beyond that, a lot of Ness' moves just seem better, especially his aerials, which are important for such a clearly air-based character. That said, Lucas is almost certainly harder to play than Ness, and generally plays fairly differently from him, so I could be wrong.

I do think they're both a bit slept on maybe? Honestly, I still feel like I don't know enough about these characters to pass any sort of judgement. They certainly seem fun, at least. Ness in particular is a lot of fun to mess around with.

Ness feels the best he’s ever felt in Ultimate imo and I think this is the best he’s ever been. I’m a Ness main so there’s a little bias here but looking at his tournament results, his kit, and how he translates as a character into Ultimates physics I think there’s no doubt he’s a high tier character. I’d honestly say top 10 at this point. This isn’t just my opinion though, a lot of people think this. He’s a little slept on but I think people are starting to realize he’s really good. I’d love to see more than 4 or 5 top Ness mains this time around and hopefully people will start picking up the character or else he’ll stay slept on (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing for me lol)

I can’t say much for Lucas since I haven’t tried him out nor have I seen tournament results but he’s definitely got a dangerous tool kit, I can tell just from playing against good Lucas players online. His edgeguarding game is insane. He might be the one that’s slept on

 

[Frihetsanka]

One thing im starting to realize because of ultimate is how bull**** some of the top tiers in smash 4 were. A lot of them had a lot of ridiculous stuff, I normally dont like seeing nerfs and I feel like some characters got nerfed too hard however good riddance to some of the bull**** that was allowed in sm4sh.

Right now, all of the current "top tiers" (ie characters people think are top tier) feel much less oppressive and overpowered compared to Smash 4. Meanwhile, the "low tiers" seem better than in Smash 4. It could be that they've actually managed to tone down the best characters while buffing the worst, making the game more balanced overall.

Let's hope that's the case and it stays that way (DLC could change things, both Cloud and Bayonetta were Smash 4 DLC after all).