Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[fozzy fosbourne]

Charizard also has that sweet frame 6 upsmash

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Minor impression or just ruminating on PT.

Squirtle isn't really that good. Possibly a contentious statement.
I think many shy away from Charizards value because of pre-conceived notions about heavys. Charizard may miss Rocksmash but, obviously, he gains more then he loses by having his other friends as options. His OoS options are still good.
Not to say Squirtle doesn't have its advantageous, water gun is niche but certainly solid where it is relevant. His Air movement is strong overall which frankly just makes up for him being the most stubby of the three, but it is certainly nice against zoners. Squirtle also has low % combos which is the main draw.
What happens a lot of the time is "start with Squirtle for low combos, and then dump it for Ivy/Zard" because overall Squirtle doesn't hold as much weight.

There are reasons to swap to it even outside of water gun, Withdraw provides another landing option.
Ivysaur and Charizard are very strong in advantage, Ivysaur lacks OoS options, but Charizard is not lacking there at all.

Where am I going with this? In the end, I think Squirtle is going to be seen *less* and become even more situational as the meta develops. Switched to for the sake of Withdraw landing and his few specific MU advantages. Squirtle has faster tilts/aerials and air accel for being worse than Zard at everything else which may seem like "fast normals are great" but meh. Zards great ground speed, grab range, weight, recovery, OoS options, range, horizontal KO power/edgeguarding, etc. You can keep him in for low %'s but you are trading Ivys zoning and disjoints to hopefully land that 30 or 40% combo. It's not all that worth it given the damage Zaur and Ivy put out themselves is already high.

Even if I'm correct (im just practicing a lot of squirtle atm, and might feel better about him later) Im not encouraging neglecting squirtle, just that he is more niche than his current use may imply. Squirtle is more of a "secondary" within PT itself where Ivysaur and Zard are the "real" character. There's still times it will be easier to just keep squirtle in.
My current opinion is that Ivysaur is a worthwhile trade for Rock Smash, and squirtle is not .

Each pokemon basically represents an archetype (fast lw, hard hitting heavy, disjointed spacer) and I think squirtle is mediocre at his

Squirtle is just as Pichu, but lacks the sheer power and projectile spam, and even combos and gimps are less viable. Squirtle seems just like.. a smaller Ultimate / Brawl Sheik honestly. Without the Needles. Maybe Jigglypuff minus the floatiness and aerial combos is a better explanation? Anyway, he's kinda underwhelming for his archetype.

Ivysaur has been explored greatly, and I think currently, Ivysaur carries the other 2 Pokemon, but Charizard is huuuuugely underdeveloped, and that's a shame. Charizard is more than a 'last resort, **** it all, I'mma Flare Blitz till I get **** on' - character. And I haven't seen even one Pokemon Trainer main that starts out with Charizard, or uses him as much as Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Regarding Squirtle:

I think starting with Squirtle will always be ideal. You mentioned his strong air movement and this, in addition to his small size means you can escape early percent combos much easier than Ivysaur and/or Charizard. I think Squirtle does exactly what he was designed to do: rack up early percentage. Once you get a decent combo in there really isn't much reason to keep Squirtle in unless the match-up calls for it. For example, I will keep Squirtle in much longer against Simon/Richter because Squirtle can get in and rack in tons of damage. I agree that Water Gun is niche but the reward is super worth it and the utility of having a charged water gun as Charizard is only a plus. All in all, the success of PT depends on how well you use all 3 Pokemon. Usage is gonna vary between match-ups, opponents, and even games. So although Squirtle may seem lacking sometimes, I think his mobility, utility and solid combo game more than make up for it.

The reason why no one starts with Charizard or use him as much is because he's the worst of the three. Starting with Charizard means you get juggled with early combos (trust me I've tried). I agree that he's more than a last resort and in my opinion, does very well in advantage. He's even got some good match-ups against swordies. But he's best at high percents not only because he can KO more easily but because you don't get combo'd as easily. I'll gladly trade hits with Charizard because I know he'll last longer and KO faster than most opponents when we're both over 100%.

As much praise as Ivysaur gets, he still has some notable flaws. Most notably, he can get out-sworded or out-zoned by sword and projectile users. Watch Leffen's matches vs. MKLeo and Yeti and you'll see Ivysaur struggle with these characters. He also gets combo'd as bad as Charizard at times, lacking any quick "get off" moves besides nair maybe.

 

[Ffamran]

lack of horizontal air speed and acceleration

Falco has low air speed at 0.977, but his air acceleration is high at 0.09 max additional and 0.01 base for a 0.1 total tying him with Mr. G&W, Ness, Pichu, and Pikachu. It's slightly higher than Fox's and Wolf's who have 0.08 max additional and 0.01 base for a 0.09 total.

and struggles killing.

Spoiler: Old and new Falco problems

Part of Falco's issues with killing is what they did to him in Ultimate coming from Smash 4. Dtilt became closer to Melee Dtilt in Smash 4, but they also for whatever dumb reason gave it a disjoint making it reach as far or further than the Dtilts of the Marthlings, except if their Dtilts allowed them to combo or string off of them and kill fairly well if you sweetspotted them. Why the hell they thought that was a good idea I don't know. You'd figure that removing the disjoint was all they needed to do to contain a good move. Nope, they increased the startup to frame 10 back when it was always frame 7. It's not that slow, but it's slow enough when you consider that it doesn't have stupid range anymore and Falco's go-to launcher in Ultimate now is Utilt which he can use out of a dash and run because of the dash and run cancel mechanic that was introduced.

I get why they did it, though, considering that Falco's Dtilt is just better than Fox's. Fox probably wouldn't be able to follow up from it as easily because of how high Falco's Dtilt can pop people up, but Fox would have had a Dtilt that could have killed and in Ultimate at least, do at least 10.5% with the tipper hitbox and up to 13% with the sweetspot on the base of the tail. With his ground speed, he could easily abuse Dtilts out of dashes and runs. I think they should have reduced the startup of Fox's Dtilt instead to around frame 5 or maybe reduced the recovery on his a bit. Wolf came back with his Dtilt that he can use more easily now and it's frame 5 with 22 recovery frames. It doesn't do much, but it's fast and lets him low poke. Fox's Dtilt is frame 7 with 20 recovery frames where I think you can get stuff out of it, but Fox would get more from Utilt, frame 3, and dash attack, frame 4, and Ftilt, frame 6, would all be faster options. Hell, in that case, I'd buff Fox's and Wolf's Dtilt if it meant Falco could keep Dtilt at frame 7 and the damage increase they gave it.

Ftilt lost 3%, from 9% to 6%, in return for being 3 frames faster on recovery, from 20 to 17 frames. Its knockback is probably different since 6%, 0 base knockback, and 100 growth would probably be even more unsafe on hit at very low percents despite the 3 less frames of recovery. Pre-Ultimate, Falco's Ftilt could kind of kill. Not at "usual" or good kill percents, but definitely at high percents in or probably reasonably so in Melee because if he hit someone with Ftilt near the ledge and with Melee's high fall speed, they might get gimped, be in the perfect situation to be edgehogged, or straight up even die. In other words, what Wolf's doing with Ftilt now is what Falco's Ftilt probably could do. The best parts? If Ultimate Falco's Ftilt has 100 growth, then it's only 6 growth off Wolf's second hit of Ftilt. The other thing is that Brawl Wolf's second of Ftilt had 40 base and 120 growth while in Ultimate, it has 55 base and 106 growth. Both do 6% which means Brawl Wolf's Ftilt would kill even earlier due to the much higher knockback scaling than Ultimate Wolf's in this game at least.

The other part is that Falco wasn't really ever good at raw killing, so killing from center stage or across the stage. Melee Falco just abused how dumb his Dair was in that game and the fact he could confirm it and other moves from the also as dumb Shine in addition to how high fall speeds were and how recoveries were generally bad in Melee. Otherwise in the later games, Falco did not have a Fox Up Smash or a Fox Uair, a Lucina, Marth, Mario, or Samus Side Smash, a Wolf Down Smash, a Cloud or Ike Bair, an Ultimate Mega Man or a Mewtwo Fair, a Link or a Snake Utilt, a Chrom, Little Mac, Pichu, or Roy Ftilt, or a Ganondorf, Luigi, Peach, Wolf, or Yoshi Nair. Basically, fast and/or safe kill moves usually with good, generous hitboxes. For one, if Link catches you trying to land badly on top of him, he can easily flick you to the blast zone with Utilt or destroy you with Up Smash and those moves have fantastic hitboxes for anti-airing and in general, coverage.

Falco only really has Side Smash, post-Smash 4 Bair, and Dair spikes for raw killing. When you consider how strong Fox's Up Smash Brawl Wolf's Down Smash are while all being fast, frame 8 for Fox and Brawl Wolf, it's kind of sad that Falco's Side Smash starting in Brawl was basically another Side Smash. Melee Side Smash was stupid because it was Fox's Side Smash, a frame 12 attack, but with higher damage, 17% clean and 14% late to Fox's 15% clean and 12% late, and higher overall killing power. Melee Falco's Side Smash starts out with higher base knockback while Fox's has higher growth, but lower base; Falco's Side Smash had 40 base and 90 growth to Fox's 10 base and 105 growth. Brawl changed it to a frame 16 attack and Smash 4 upped it to 17, so twice as slow as Fox's and Brawl Wolf's strongest Smashes. Fox's Up Smash for whatever reason ending up gaining a few points in growth for Ultimate and Wolf's Down Smash gained 6 frames of startup, 14 frames now, where it's still faster than Falco's Side Smash and increased damage from 14% sweetspot and 12% sourspot to 16% sweetspot and 14% for the front hit and 13% sweetspot and 10% sourspot to 14% sweetspot and 12% sourspot for the back hit while keeping the same base knockback, 50, and growth, 90, for the sweetspot. The sourspots growth was increased to 80 from 60. Fox can confirm Up Smash from Nair and Dair and while his Side Smash is weaker, it's much faster at frame 13. All of Wolf's Smashes have low recovery even if they have high startup, and except for Up Smash, Wolf's Side Smash and Down Smash hit very hard.

Falco's Side Smash is just another Side Smash. It's nothing special compared to Little Mac's where his has armor, Mario, Samus where theirs are fast on startup. or Meta Knight's and Wolf's where theirs have low recovery. It's not even stupidly strong like Bowser's, Ganondorf's, or Roy's. Falco will kill you with Side Smash and punishing with Side Smash isn't a bad idea, but it just doesn't have anything really to stand out. Same deal with Down Smash where it's more or less a coverage move.

Up Smash is his standout Smash attack as a utility move mainly in anti-airing due to its low startup, high active frames, leg invincibility, and high invincibility frames. Unfortunately, the animation change made it so it lost horizontal range, especially behind him and there's a blind spot under him now. Vertically, its range is better and Falco's second hit lingers above him longer than with Smash 4 Up Smash where it covered above him and lingered a bit behind him. Meanwhile, Fox's Up Smash gaining a range buff because of course Fox needed an easier time hitting with it. Anyway, in terms of kill power, it's kind of the same as it was in 1.1.4 Smash 4, so killing around 120%, which means its knockback growth probably was dialed back a bit since its second hit does 1% more damage, from 12% to 13%. 1.1.4 Smash 4 increased the growth of the second hit from 98 to 104.

While Falco does struggle at killing, he does have kill confirms off of Utilt, falling Nair and falling Fair, Dair, and Falco Phantasm where Utilt and Phantasm leads into Bair and falling Nair and falling Fair can lead into Dtilt and Up Smash. It's just that this dude doesn't move fast and except for Falco Phantasm, none of those moves have a lot of range. Falco also has the dumbest kill throws through U-throw and B-throw. If you decide not to DI or decide to DI into the laser for whatever reason, they can kill at high percents. In other words, they're the most inconsistent "kill throws" in the game.

Uair was nerfed as a kill move (but combos better)

Uair already was nerfed as a kill move in 1.0.8 Smash 4 and became more of a combo and juggle tool with its lowered startup from frame 10 to frame 7. Ultimate just reduced its damage further from 1.0.8 dropping it down to 10%, its Brawl damage, to 9%. Part of its damage is made up by the 1v1, no items, multiplier of x1.2.

I can't help but feel he is upper-mid at best, he has the tools to almost be oppressive but is best played in a defensive manner

Most Falco players ignore Blaster let alone Ftilt and Dtilt while being obsessed with Utilt and for good reason, though, and play him like a rushdown character. Good luck rushing down with a character whose run speed is 1.619, lower than Mario's and much lower than someone like Wii Fit Trainer who has a 1.866. Some of them also try to use Fair as a neutral tool.

and his blaster isn't strong or fast enough to camp out most of the cast.

Falco's Blaster has low startup at frame 8 on the ground and frame 7 in the air. The problem is that its lasers have very low set knockback. Melee Blaster had the highest at 5 set knockback, Brawl down to 3, and Smash 4 and probably Ultimate at 2. Melee and Brawl Blaster made up for its low set knockback by being able to autocancel, so Falco could constantly put lasers in front of him.

Wolf's Blaster bolts on the other hand have high set knockback at least compared to Falco's. We don't know what it is in Ultimate, but in Brawl, it had 20 set knockback at close range and long range and 24 at mid range. Brawl Wolf's Blaster bolts do 5% close and at long range and 6% at mid range. Ultimate bumped it up to 6% close, 8% mid, and 7% long

On the ground, both their Blasters have the same recovery at 34 frames. Falco's Blaster in the air has 32 recovery frames. The difference is that Wolf's Blaster does twice as much damage and has significantly higher set knockback allowing it to inflict more hit stun than Falco's Blaster and the hitboxes for the bolts are probably larger than Falco's Blaster's thin lasers. The drawback is that Wolf's Blaster is twice as slow on startup and can't be fired continuously like Falco's which I still question why that's a thing, but whatever.

Fun fact: Falco's blaster fires frame 8 of 41 total (7 and 38 in the air) and Wolf's fires 15 of 49. Wolf's blast is bigger and has a bayonet to be fair. Wolf is the better character due to movement and reach overall but he's different enough from Falco to not be a better version.

Frame 15 is the bayonet hit of Wolf's Blaster. Frame 16 is when the bolt is fired.

And I think Falco has a really good air game and a decent combo game. Once he gets you in the air and offstage he has a good chance to KO. I just think he’s overshadowed by Wolf and Fox although he’s a completely different character. I don’t think he’s bad by any means though

I'd say it's more of Fox kind of was buffed a bit more than the rest of the characters and Wolf came back strong while Falco had a rough start in Smash 4 and has to deal with a history of having very powerful or blatantly broken moves back in Melee and Brawl that he will likely never get back and in spite of all the nerf demands to other characters, some people hypocritically ask for those broken stuff to return on Falco.

Mid-mid at best, probably low-mid. As far as I know, he still has most of his Smash 4 flaws, and his up-Smash hitbox is worse. Keitaro does not seem to have much faith in him, and I think AC (now Armando) dropped him? Actually, I looked it up and he posted this a few hours ago:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It'll be interesting to see what he can do with Falco.

Armando decided to main Snake in the beginning. Not sure why and I don't know if he played or competed in Brawl or PM. In doing so, it seemed like he didn't really play any of the other characters he did in Smash 4, namely Falco and Meta Knight which he was known for. Apparently he also played Cloud, Fox, and Sheik at some point that I don't remember according to his wiki page. At Genesis, he used Meta Knight to fight Tweek's Wario. I guess he didn't think Snake had a good matchup against Wario or his Snake wouldn't be able to keep up with Tweek, Wario, or Tweek's Wario.

I feel like he should have at least kept Cloud or Meta Knight up to par with his Snake instead of dropping a bunch of characters. The characters he played didn't really that change much either, so keeping them practiced would have helped as he was learning Snake. Yes, it eats away a lot of time and people have lives, other things to do, but having a good Snake, Cloud, Meta Knight, and Falco, Fox, or even Sheik would have given him a good set of characters to choose from. Then again, I don't buy into the idea that playing multiple characters is too hard or impossible when you consider people who play games like The King of Fighters, Dragon Ball FighterZ, Marvel vs. Capcom, and BlazBlue: Cross Tag Battle who are forced to learn at least three characters or players that compete in several different games and/or play characters with drastically different play styles. Whatever.

Tbh I don't see what Falco does that Wolf doesn't do but better. Wolf's blaster controls the pace of neutral better than Falco's lasers do. Wolf has the potent air game that Falco is supposed to have to compliment the ground control his blaster gives. Wolf has a potent ground game as well as a bonus that Falco doesn't really have. Both characters not necessarily being that fast on the ground but Wolf has the advantage of being much faster in the air than Falco does. Hell they both even have about the same subpar recovery options (Falco has an slight edge thanks to his double jump height).

I don't really see a purpose for Falco to exist when Wolf essentially does what Falco wants to do but better. Maybe someone with more Falco insight can elaborate more can shed more light on the difference in each other's gameplans because I don't really see it.

Wolf can't juggle people or really followup an aerial with another aerial like Falco or Captain Falcon, Mario, Pichu, Pikachu, and ZSS for that matter. Part of that is his jump height and another part is how his aerials work. Mainly Uair, though. Wolf can anti-air well, but none of his moves have invincibility like Falco's Up Smash where Falco can anti-air through moves like Link's Dair. Falco's jump makes his air game potent in the sense of how high and how quickly he can meet his opponent in the air and keep up with his opponent despite how high he might be launching his opponent while Wolf's air speed makes his air game potent in the sense of how fast he get to his opponent while moving in the air horizontally. Their edgeguarding is also different. Falco can catch opponents very high up and dip very low and suddenly rise high up with an aerial. Wolf on the other hand has better 2 frame moves because of their hitboxes and the moves he hits with are usually much stronger than Falco's.

A weird analogy, but Falco's more like a Tekken character while Wolf's more like a Soul Calibur character. Falco's all about how many hits can he can get as his moves are able to combo and string together. Wolf's about making each hit count and hitting them as safely as he can where he can combo and string moves together at times, but that's not his primary goal or gameplan.

I don't really see a purpose for Falco to exist when Wolf essentially does what Falco wants to do but better. Maybe someone with more Falco insight can elaborate more can shed more light on the difference in each other's gameplans because I don't really see it.

Neither do I, but here we are with everyone's back for Ultimate. Probably because he's a semi-clone and that they can reuse a bunch of Fox's assets for him, by why Wolf got cut for Smash 4, a recurring and notable antagonist of Star Fox and for Fox, instead of a Falco, a supporting character and ace pilot who can't show his skills in-game because he'd probably outperform Fox and the player making playing the game kind of pointless, I don't know. Then again, Falco keeps getting new animations and stuff with each game, so there's that. This dude has had three different Up Smashes animations. Granted, one of them was Fox's, but each new one is a different move and not just a better animated or slightly tweaked one.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Regarding Squirtle:
As much praise as Ivysaur gets, he still has some notable flaws. Most notably, he can get out-sworded or out-zoned by sword and projectile users. Watch Leffen's matches vs. MKLeo and Yeti and you'll see Ivysaur struggle with these characters. He also gets combo'd as bad as Charizard at times, lacking any quick "get off" moves besides nair maybe.

His grab is also pretty bad and I don't think many people realize that yet.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

His grab is also pretty bad and I don't think many people realize that yet.

I think people think it's fine mostly due to the range and massive reward you get off grab. You can get 2 Uairs if there's a platform for 50% or if they're at 70-90% Dthrow to upB straight up KOs. So although it's not the best, when you do get a grab you're gonna get at least one follow-up and at worst, good positioning under your opponent.

 

[Siledh]

Does Wolf's blaster bypass Link's Hylian Shield?

 

[TTTTTsd]

A lot of people putting the notion of rushdown Falco as some kind of joke are ignoring the general utility of Side-B as a burst option/whiff punish with its highly reduced FAF, the fact that his grabs are all Mario tier now in terms of startup, and the fact that his reward on hit when you properly optimize his strings is fairly stable at most %s including from grabs. Also the fact that his Frame 3 Nair has dragdown setups into standing grab against a large chunk of the cast + jab against those grab doesn't work on. He's very good in this game! If you try and play him like Smash 4 Falco though, you'll see no success. He's not perfect and he's the weakest of the spacies but I also think that he's still an excellent character.

Once I started abusing USmash OoS my life changed as a Falco player.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I don't really hear anyone talk about the Miis anymore. had some brief discussion because of the discovery of his silly KO confirm, but that is it. is a big question mark, and I am not sure if the buffs in 2.0.0 will bring out of low tier (ZeRo thinks so, but he tends to underrate/overrate the effect of a balance change). What are your guys thoughts on the Miis?

Another character that is a big question mark is . Curious on your guys thoughts on him as well.

I think that Mii Gunner is a pretty good character, but I don't think that I have a strong enough knowledge on other characters for tier placements. Despite the lack of recorded information on Gunner's placements on this site, Gunner has gotten some results in some monthly and regional tournaments. Eureka got 9th out of 119 at Spartan Pantheon Kick Off (some notable players include Zinoto, Smasher1001, and Ksev). Aemehr also got 9th out of 213 at MSM 171 in SoCal. Most Gunner players and reported tournament results tend to be on the Gunner discord (You can find the Gunner discord under https://smashcords.com/smash-5).

Spoiler: Gunner analysis

Gunner has had some considerable changes from Smash 4 to Ultimate. While I think that Gunner's neutral got buffed overall, I actually think that other characters buffs combined with Gunner's mobility changes make winning neutral a bit harder than Smash 4. There are more projectile absorbers and reflectors in this game, and other characters got more mobility buffs than Gunner. Gunner's inital dash speed got slighty buffed from Smash 4, but it went from top 10 to the second worst in the game. In addition, Gunner's air speed and air acceleration got nerfed. The range on fair also got nerfed as well. Gunner did gain more shield pressure (missle to charge blast can break shields), and safety on shield with other moves though. Missile and Bomb drop also provide good hitboxes that stay out while Gunner can do something else.

On the other hand, Gunner's advantage state got huge buffs. Almost all of Gunner's moves got damage buffs, and flame pillar was made into a stronger combo move at the cost of some edgeguarding potential. Gunner has some low to mid percent throw combos, a couple of charge blast combos and kill confirms, and a decent kill throw in back throw. With charge blast fully charge it is pretty easy to do almost 50% with two hits.

Gunner's disadvantage state varies based on the special moves, but it can be pretty decent as long as lunar launch or arm rocket are selected. Gunner is still a heavy, floaty character with a relatively small hurtbox. Gunner's recovery is better since lunar launch has more distance and arm rocket can be controlled similar to Lucario's recovery. The endlag reduction on fair also makes gundashing back to the stage easier. Gunner still has gundashing to move quickly in the air, but the character still does not put out great hitboxes from below (bomb drop in Smash 4 would have fixed this, but it was not allowed for the most part). Gunner's bombs can be hit back at Gunner now. Dair is better but it still isn't that good, and it comes out on frame 20. Nair is also not that disjointed. I honestly feel worse in disadvantage than in Smash 4, but I think that it has more to do with the game mechanics.

Gunner's development in the game depends a bit on the ruleset. Right now, the 3 miis option could be used to make movesets that can make matchups easier. The only usless special Gunner has is laser blaze (tales even used stealth burst on mii gunner to get 2nd out of 40 people in Chile). HugS played Mii Gunner at G6, but he only went 1-2. He still seems to be more focused on melee, but he has potential if he learns more about how to play Mii Gunner. He has a solid neutral, but he could use gundashing more to get out of disadvantage and recover. His combo game could also improve by using Gunner's combos into charge blasts.

 

[Minordeth]

Tbh I don't see what Falco does that Wolf doesn't do but better. Wolf's blaster controls the pace of neutral better than Falco's lasers do. Wolf has the potent air game that Falco is supposed to have to compliment the ground control his blaster gives. Wolf has a potent ground game as well as a bonus that Falco doesn't really have. Both characters not necessarily being that fast on the ground but Wolf has the advantage of being much faster in the air than Falco does. Hell they both even have about the same subpar recovery options (Falco has an slight edge thanks to his double jump height).

I don't really see a purpose for Falco to exist when Wolf essentially does what Falco wants to do but better. Maybe someone with more Falco insight can elaborate more can shed more light on the difference in each other's gameplans because I don't really see it.

Outside of their excellent dash dancing and anti-approach abilities, Wolf and Falco play completely differently.

Falco's jump height isn't some insignificant factor, either. It allows Falco to go extremely deep for edgeguard attempts, while Wolf prefers to stay on the ledge, as it plays to his strengths and weaknesses far more.

Falco's advantage is built around combos and strings. Wolf will do short, 2-3 hit combos and keep up pressure in order to stack those together to get his opponent off stage. Falco has longer true combos that he can string together off of DI reads. His damage output off of one conversion can be kind of ridiculous, which has been enhanced by the removal of infinite air dodging.

Falco can also outbox most characters. His jab is frame 2, and his Dtilt and Ftilt are safe on block (assuming they are spaced). Ftilt, despite being unable to kill, is an excellent poking and AA-tool at frame 6, especially out of dash.

On a side note:
The issues with Falco typically stem from his attributes. Wolf has high airspeed, a great initial dash, and a low short hop, with good traction. To recall an old Smash 4 CCI post, his playability is high.

Falco has the highest jump height in the game, but a great initial dash, and low-ish short hop. Accidentally holding jump for four frames results in a dramatic misinput. I really do think if Ultimate had a short hop button, or the short hop macro available from the get-go, he would be a more popular character due simply to improved playability. I think this is partially why Greninja isn't a popular character in Ultimate, despite being a fantastic character.

Overally, I think Falco is actually a pretty great character. He has extremely high damage output, can actually edgeguard, has a consistent kill confirm from Utilt, and can countercamp a game filled with strong projectile characters. He may have a slow run speed, but his dash dance is excellent. If he got a few small tweaks, he would be on-par with his spacie brothers.

 

[Rizen]

Does Wolf's blaster bypass Link's Hylian Shield?

No.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Does Wolf's blaster bypass Link's Hylian Shield?

Any projectile that can be reflected will be blocked by the Hylian shield, even Samus' full charge shot.

 

[Ffamran]

A lot of people putting the notion of rushdown Falco as some kind of joke are ignoring the general utility of Side-B as a burst option/whiff punish with its highly reduced FAF, the fact that his grabs are all Mario tier now in terms of startup, and the fact that his reward on hit when you properly optimize his strings is fairly stable at most %s including from grabs. Also the fact that his Frame 3 Nair has dragdown setups into standing grab against a large chunk of the cast + jab against those grab doesn't work on. He's very good in this game! If you try and play him like Smash 4 Falco though, you'll see no success. He's not perfect and he's the weakest of the spacies but I also think that he's still an excellent character.

I rag on rushdown with Falco and in general when players are doing it very badly by being very linear and predictable. Where's the empty hops and jumps, where are the dashes and walks, where are the Bairs and Uairs from pivot jumps? In other words, where's the **** that Smash 4 Falco was doing? That's also why I don't get your statement of, "If you try and play him like Smash 4 Falco, though, you'll see no success", because good Falco players had elusive movement where some used it aggressively to pressure their opponent while others hung back more and made it difficult to guess what they were up to. They were also keenly aware of and in control of what moves they wanted to put up. They didn't throw out a Uair from a pivot jump or hop because they could. They threw it out so they could keep their backs to their opponent to follow up with a Bair. I ain't seeing any of this **** and it is disappointing and infuriating seeing people mindlessly bumrush in with Falco.

Once I started abusing USmash OoS my life changed as a Falco player.

The Star Fox characters' Up Smashes out of shield are god tier. I don't know why other Falco players don't do this. Larry is the only player who uses out of shield Up Smash a lot and well with Falco. Some Falco players straight up don't even use Up Smash or Down Smash for that matter. I don't know if it's because he's reacting faster or is able to react in time to do Up Smash out of shield, people are overreacting to Up Smash's "nerfed"/changed hitboxes, or what. Anti-airing with Up Smash also doesn't really happen either. People either run away from punishable aerials or try some other option like Utilt can anti-air, but you need to hit first or else a trade or a lost against disjoint aerials will happen. Lunamado, a Japanese player, was the only one to do it a lot, but he mainly plays Bowser as far as I'm aware. Even if the safety of Falco's legs being invincible isn't enough to make them feel comfortable anti-airing with Up Smash, they can still meet an aerial with a shield and then Up Smash out of shield or possibly parry and then Up Smash. Oh look, we've come full circle to Up Smash out of shield.

Also, Falco players need to walk more. When you can walk as fast or even faster than some characters' runs, you should abuse that.

 

[meleebrawler]

Regarding Squirtle:

I think starting with Squirtle will always be ideal. You mentioned his strong air movement and this, in addition to his small size means you can escape early percent combos much easier than Ivysaur and/or Charizard. I think Squirtle does exactly what he was designed to do: rack up early percentage. Once you get a decent combo in there really isn't much reason to keep Squirtle in unless the match-up calls for it. For example, I will keep Squirtle in much longer against Simon/Richter because Squirtle can get in and rack in tons of damage. I agree that Water Gun is niche but the reward is super worth it and the utility of having a charged water gun as Charizard is only a plus. All in all, the success of PT depends on how well you use all 3 Pokemon. Usage is gonna vary between match-ups, opponents, and even games. So although Squirtle may seem lacking sometimes, I think his mobility, utility and solid combo game more than make up for it.

The reason why no one starts with Charizard or use him as much is because he's the worst of the three. Starting with Charizard means you get juggled with early combos (trust me I've tried). I agree that he's more than a last resort and in my opinion, does very well in advantage. He's even got some good match-ups against swordies. But he's best at high percents not only because he can KO more easily but because you don't get combo'd as easily. I'll gladly trade hits with Charizard because I know he'll last longer and KO faster than most opponents when we're both over 100%.

As much praise as Ivysaur gets, he still has some notable flaws. Most notably, he can get out-sworded or out-zoned by sword and projectile users. Watch Leffen's matches vs. MKLeo and Yeti and you'll see Ivysaur struggle with these characters. He also gets combo'd as bad as Charizard at times, lacking any quick "get off" moves besides nair maybe.

One weird quirk they all seem to share is good anti-air tools. It's most pronounced with Ivysaur with it's Bullet Seed and Vine Whip, fair and uair with good disjointed vertical reach. But Charizard also has a solid utilt and of course the usmash of doom, Fly can sometimes work but not often sue to it's slowness and not so great hitboxes. Then there's Squirtle who's more subtle. Besides just using his air maneuverability to weave around other aerials and counterattack, Waterfall is an interesting option due to the water being placed in front of him giving noticeable disjoint that he's usually lacking, and if he ever manages to get directly under you his utilt will lead to his nastiest combos.

 

[Rizen]

Falco players should force approaches more, Fox too. It's free chip damage. Everyone complains about how Wolf's blaster controls neutral; well what does Falco have, a Cuisinart?! I got at least 50% on Ridley from YL's arrows alone.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Falco players should force approaches more, Fox too. It's free chip damage. Everyone complains about how Wolf's blaster controls neutral; well what does Falco have, a Cuisinart?! I got at least 50% on Ridley from YL's arrows alone.

Fox's lasers don't really do anything aside from chip damage though. They're free chip damage sure, but since they don't make the opponent flinch they can't be used for zoning at all. If you try to camp with them you might get some free chip damage in sure, but you also give up valuable stage control.

Wolf's blaster doesn't just give him free damage, it also reduces his opponents ability to approach as well, creating more openings for a punish or counter offense. Fox's blaster doesn't really shut any sort of approach option down.

 

[MG_3989]

Fox's lasers don't really do anything aside from chip damage though. They're free chip damage sure, but since they don't make the opponent flinch they can't be used for zoning at all. If you try to camp with them you might get some free chip damage in sure, but you also give up valuable stage control.

Wolf's blaster doesn't just give him free damage, it also reduces his opponents ability to approach as well, creating more openings for a punish or counter offense. Fox's blaster doesn't really shut any sort of approach option down.

Fox's lasers don't really do anything aside from chip damage though. They're free chip damage sure, but since they don't make the opponent flinch they can't be used for zoning at all. If you try to camp with them you might get some free chip damage in sure, but you also give up valuable stage control.

Wolf's blaster doesn't just give him free damage, it also reduces his opponents ability to approach as well, creating more openings for a punish or counter offense. Fox's blaster doesn't really shut any sort of approach option down.

Yeah but it can force approaches so they don’t take chip damage along with his reflector. The damage adds up so eventually you have to approach Fox

 

[Rizen]

Fox's lasers don't really do anything aside from chip damage though. They're free chip damage sure, but since they don't make the opponent flinch they can't be used for zoning at all. If you try to camp with them you might get some free chip damage in sure, but you also give up valuable stage control.

Wolf's blaster doesn't just give him free damage, it also reduces his opponents ability to approach as well, creating more openings for a punish or counter offense. Fox's blaster doesn't really shut any sort of approach option down.

If you give up stage control you're not camping smart. But if Fox and the opponent are both in neutral on say FD, Fox can rushdown and fight where he can get hit or spam a few lasers and make the opponent commit to an action. Too easily Foxes give up strait free damage because frankly his rushdown is incredible. There's power in forcing an opponent to act. You get shield damage, maybe make them jump or at least commit to a dash, which isn't as committal in this game but still.

 

[Tesh]

Fox's lasers don't really do anything aside from chip damage though. They're free chip damage sure, but since they don't make the opponent flinch they can't be used for zoning at all. If you try to camp with them you might get some free chip damage in sure, but you also give up valuable stage control.

Wolf's blaster doesn't just give him free damage, it also reduces his opponents ability to approach as well, creating more openings for a punish or counter offense. Fox's blaster doesn't really shut any sort of approach option down.

While I'm not sure I'd call it zoning, Fox lasers do still force the opponent to come close enough to make them unsafe. They make a statement to characters that might otherwise want to sit at the far end of the stage and do whatever.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Hm I guess they do have utility in counter camping, but in most match ups I still think Fox wants to make sure he has as much room to take advantage of his mobility as possible. Sitting at the edge just isn't a Fox thing to do (unless you a Smash 4 For Glory player), and those lasers don't exactly do much to cover his own approach.

 

[Minordeth]

Falco players should force approaches more, Fox too. It's free chip damage. Everyone complains about how Wolf's blaster controls neutral; well what does Falco have, a Cuisinart?! I got at least 50% on Ridley from YL's arrows alone.

Although his laser's aren't transcendent, the longer range, ability to interrupt, and fast startup means Falco can play a strong counter-camp/anti-approach game.

And although it's not anywhere near well-popularized yet, as it's a little more technically demanding, Falco can SH RAR to "autocancel" it. Retreating SH RAR blaster is pretty gross to limit aerial threats and approaches, or countercamp jump projectile usage.

Fox's lasers don't really do anything aside from chip damage though. They're free chip damage sure, but since they don't make the opponent flinch they can't be used for zoning at all. If you try to camp with them you might get some free chip damage in sure, but you also give up valuable stage control.

Wolf's blaster doesn't just give him free damage, it also reduces his opponents ability to approach as well, creating more openings for a punish or counter offense. Fox's blaster doesn't really shut any sort of approach option down.

Fox doesn't need to shut down an approach option. Forcing an approach is more than good enough for the guy that can eat most characters alive once they get in his burst range. If he can discourage zoning attempts with blaster, then the burden to zone break is reduced.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I rag on rushdown with Falco and in general when players are doing it very badly by being very linear and predictable. Where's the empty hops and jumps, where are the dashes and walks, where are the Bairs and Uairs from pivot jumps? In other words, where's the **** that Smash 4 Falco was doing? That's also why I don't get your statement of, "If you try and play him like Smash 4 Falco, though, you'll see no success", because good Falco players had elusive movement where some used it aggressively to pressure their opponent while others hung back more and made it difficult to guess what they were up to. They were also keenly aware of and in control of what moves they wanted to put up. They didn't throw out a Uair from a pivot jump or hop because they could. They threw it out so they could keep their backs to their opponent to follow up with a Bair. I ain't seeing any of this **** and it is disappointing and infuriating seeing people mindlessly bumrush in with Falco.
.

Iunno, this is good but Falco in 4 didnt make use of Nair in neutral the way this one does, nor Side-B proper. Smash 4 Falco also can't really dash dance and Falco's is quite good, with very high initial dash. In addition Falco's grabs here are like, totally redesigned and just....way better all around. I see your point though and don't disagree, but I think he has much more flexible options compared to 4 Falco which I think is my overall point.

 

[Rehnquist]

Another character that is a big question mark is . Curious on your guys thoughts on him as well.

Tough to answer because a lot of people are still getting hit by things in tournaments that I think shouldn't hit them which indicates a little bit of match up inexperience, few players, fewer matches to analyze, etc, best I can do is mention a few traits and examples against popular characters. I find it hard to talk about characters outside of MUs, as that is how my brain is wired, but I'll try to be as general as possible.

+1) Neutralizing projectile Zoning Advantages

For example wolf's blaster doesn't zone MK very well, and MK's small disjoints can contend with wolfs aerials. Wolf's speed isn't impressive (his DA is though), so that kind of sours wolfs neutral. Mk just has to focus on Wolf's OoS options (which admittingly work decently against mk). Wolf has good anti air moves but I find that wolves are put into a very restricted playstyle against mk.

+2) Ledge Guarding

Self explanatory, especially characters with standard recoveries (45 degree motion), Bair's auto link properties trades with lucina as she falls down, and the backside of Nair trades with links recovery even if you fall right into Link's main hitbox on that move. You can also jump just below the ledge and nado back on to cover inkling, etc.

3) Ladders, Bridges, and Strings OH MY

Requires a lot of training to know who and at what % and I think it's this underdeveloped knowledge which is currently holding MK back from better results. His neutral is ok, but he can chase and or combo really far vertically and horizontally in his advantage state.

I won't go into details into MK negatives as I believe most already know them.

-1) Characters with fast and unpredictable / hard to punish recoveries

Self explanatory but Pikachu for example is tougher to guard against, MK is a bit more dependent on edge guards

-2) Amazing Non Projectile/ Non Zoning Base Neutral is Tough.

Hard to find that break out moment, can also be psychologically tough to be down waiting for that break out.
--------------------------

Again I'm a bit better at MU discussions, but if you were to take a competitive character and go down the list, the general idea of who MK can go toe to toe with or if MK is on an uphill battle becomes more apparent.

Hit me up if I'm missing something, I'd love to hear more discussion on the character myself.

 

[Luigifan18]

Yeah but it can force approaches so they don’t take chip damage along with his reflector. The damage adds up so eventually you have to approach Fox

Well, to be fair, there are five characters Fox can't force to approach with laser spam, as they have perfect answers to it. Fox, Wolf, and Mii Gunner (with Echo Reflector) can hold their Reflectors indefinitely to bounce Fox's lasers back at him, while Ness, Lucas, and Mii Gunner (with Absorbing Vortex) can absorb the lasers to heal themselves. (All other reflectors have finite active duration for each use, and Oil Panic gets put away after the bucket fills up, meaning that some lasers will slip through, though against some characters, Fox may still end up doing more damage to himself than the opponent if he mindlessly spams his lasers.)

 

[MG_3989]

Well, to be fair, there are five characters Fox can't force to approach with laser spam, as they have perfect answers to it. Fox, Wolf, and Mii Gunner (with Echo Reflector) can hold their Reflectors indefinitely to bounce Fox's lasers back at him, while Ness, Lucas, and Mii Gunner (with Absorbing Vortex) can absorb the lasers to heal themselves. (All other reflectors have finite active duration for each use, and Oil Panic gets put away after the bucket fills up, meaning that some lasers will slip through, though against some characters, Fox may still end up doing more damage to himself than the opponent if he mindlessly spams his lasers.)

Yeah but Fox’s reflector when used correctly can hold back Mii Gunner, G&W, etc...he doesn’t have to spam lasers to make characters to come to him. If he stays patient he can force an approach from those characters

It’s a completely different game with Ness and Wolf because they’re not a zoners and the neutral between them is interesting because all of them have tools to make each other approach and none of them are true zoners

 

[Siledh]

Well, to be fair, there are five characters Fox can't force to approach with laser spam, as they have perfect answers to it. Fox, Wolf, and Mii Gunner (with Echo Reflector) can hold their Reflectors indefinitely to bounce Fox's lasers back at him, while Ness, Lucas, and Mii Gunner (with Absorbing Vortex) can absorb the lasers to heal themselves. (All other reflectors have finite active duration for each use, and Oil Panic gets put away after the bucket fills up, meaning that some lasers will slip through, though against some characters, Fox may still end up doing more damage to himself than the opponent if he mindlessly spams his lasers.)

Link can also slowly approach without being hit thanks to his shield.

 

[ZephyrZ]

After rewatching some Light matchups in Genesis 6 I'm becoming more convinced Fox's laser is a match up thing.

In his fight against MKLeo's Lucina, laser saw very little use. Fox has a huge weakness to being cornered in this match up because of he's dependent on his movement options and is light with poor recovery. If he'd stop his movement to use his laser he does get in some chip damage but Lucina still gets to move forward to push his back against the wall.

In his fight against Esam's Pikachu, he'd still use a combination of his reflector and laser to beat out Pika's Thunderjolt nonsense. Even then he wasn't using it too frequently, just here and there when Esam got too campy. There were also points where he'd use it when he had a stock lead and decided to camp, but most of that camping was really just him running away with a little chip damage here and there.

I tend to favor swordsmen and heavyweights, which I suppose explains my perspective toward's Fox's blaster. My preferred characters usually want to corner him and fight him from stage control, so if he tried to camp them he'd just give them that. I still stand by my opinion though that his Blaster is still a situational tool and not really a vital part of his kit that he needs to use frequently. It has uses but I still think there's a lot more situations where he'd rather just dash dance, approach or run for center stage.

 

[Ffamran]

Although his laser's aren't transcendent, the longer range, ability to interrupt, and fast startup means Falco can play a strong counter-camp/anti-approach game.

And although it's not anywhere near well-popularized yet, as it's a little more technically demanding, Falco can SH RAR to "autocancel" it. Retreating SH RAR blaster is pretty gross to limit aerial threats and approaches, or countercamp jump projectile usage.

Falco's lasers are transcendent. They've been like this since Melee.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I stand corrected. This is interesting.

 

[MG_3989]

Gunner certainly has a zoning game and he’s annoying to fight. I haven’t fought too many and most of them were spammers so they were easy fights and I’ve barely seen any in tournament play (I actually don’t think I’ve watched any Gunner matches). They’re interesting though because of their moveset versatility and flame pillar and charge shot seem like really good moves as well as that fsmash that reaches halfway across the stage. I don’t know what kind of combos and confirms they have but I think they have potential. I just don’t know if this game will be kind to zoners in general (the Links and Snake have good CQC options, and Olimar is well Olimar he’s on a different level. Counting sword zoners like Lucina in a different catergory because swords are better than projectiles in this game) and I don’t know what kind of CQC options Gunner has. I’m interested in seeing some pros play them though

 

[Minordeth]

Falco's lasers are transcendent. They've been like this since Melee.

I'm.... dumb. I have no idea why I said that. I literally typed that five minutes after practicing SH RAR lasers on a ROB and I was watching my laser ... be... transcendent.

 

[Nobie]

Another big question mark is . Curious on your guys thoughts on him as well.

Abadango is apparently going Meta Knight+Inkling at the moment. MK is partly to cover matchups against smaller characters that can't get Boo-Yah'd as easily, but he also at one point tweeted that MK is "the main of my soul." So Aba definitely sees at least some promise in the character, but it also looks like MK is a comfort choice, whose style of play lines up well with him.

 

[Rizen]

's in a precarious position in the meta. He's a very technical character who's well rounded but at the same time doesn't "player counterpick" very well, like SSB4 DK and Bowser. He's good enough to win with hard work yet outclassed by characters who have an easier time winning like Inkling and Wolf. There's not a good reason to play him other than dedicated preference. Top players probably won't pick him up when they can use someone better. I fear he'll fade into obscurity as the barely high tier who shows up in top 8s occasionally and never breaks outs.

 

[PK Gaming]

Some Ike Nair counterplay worth exploring

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Browny]

Some Ike Nair counterplay worth exploring

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That Ike is throwing nairs out without any deliberate thought. Half of them weren't even going to hit the enemy if they stood still. Watch Leo's nairs, every single one is on the opponents head. The fox player wasn't punishing nair as much as he was punishing bad play, he could do the same thing if the Ike player was using peach fair, lucina nair or any other safe on block move, without proper thought into when to use the attack.

 

[Krysco]

There was a post earlier asking why one would use Falco when Wolf exists. As someone who mains Wolf in Brawl and yet doesn't use him in Ultimate but does use Falco, I can at least give my reasoning. One reason is rather specific and likely won't apply to most but I find that Ultimate Wolf plays very different from Brawl Wolf and I'm personally not a huge fan of the changes. Jab has less range as does fsmash though these are somewhat minor issues. Wolf Flash doesn't snap to ledge as quickly, effectively forcing you to use it at max distance if you wish to ledge snap (although in Brawl, it had it's own issues where sometimes Wolf would grab ledge and let go immediately after). Fire Wolf doesn't go as far and his bair is slower. This isn't even nostalgia taking over as I went back to Brawl at least half a dozen times during Sm4sh and everytime, I was able to enjoy playing as Wolf in that game. Compare this to Falco who is rather similar to his Sm4sh self where I mained him in that game in the end.

That's specific to me though since I played Brawl while many other Ultimate players may not have. A more general reason for why I prefer Falco over Wolf is his better edgeguarding. It's already been talked about but Falco can use nair, fair, bair, dair and sometimes Phantasm to edgeguard and he has an amazing double jump to allow him to go from covering low to covering high recoveries very quickly or to allow him to get back to stage after a deep edgeguard. There's also Blaster to limit the opponents recovery options (for example, firing a laser at an Ike charging Quick Draw which could force him to release it early or make him take the hit where he then has to recharge Quick Draw or go for the ledge possibly with a necessary air dodge or Aether). Others have mentioned how Wolf prefers to sit on stage and cover ledge options since he can't go as deep with his lower double jump and his rather committal aerials, plus fair isn't really useful for edgeguarding. I've always been a player that prefers to edgeguard and take the risk of ending my opponents stock, knowing if it backfires, I could end up losing my stock. This is why I used Falco in Sm4sh, even though he was a terrible character and edgeguarding was largely a joke in Sm4sh, Falco had some of the best edgeguarding in the game.

Wolf is probably better for most matchups and edgeguarding isn't going to be a big factor in all matchups like Pikachu for example but for matchups where edgeguarding is a big factor (easiest example that comes to mind is Chrom), Falco has at least that edge over Wolf.

Ffamran since you're the resident Falco expert, do you know if Falco's Reflector still reflects on frame 1 like it did in Sm4sh? If so, that's another minor advantage Falco has over Wolf since the latters Reflector doesn't reflect until frame 10.

 

[Tri Knight]

's in a precarious position in the meta. He's a very technical character who's well rounded but at the same time doesn't "player counterpick" very well, like SSB4 DK and Bowser. He's good enough to win with hard work yet outclassed by characters who have an easier time winning like Inkling and Wolf. There's not a good reason to play him other than dedicated preference. Top players probably won't pick him up when they can use someone better. I fear he'll fade into obscurity as the barely high tier who shows up in top 8s occasionally and never breaks outs.

He's a great character. I may have overestimated him like everyone else did but I dont see him actually being lower than bottom of high tier. But I can also see why people don't wanna use him at higher levels. He takes forever to kill even the lightest of characters and gets killed far too easily.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Loving this Falco talk. Was interested with the character in 4 but never actually ended up using him. Tried him out a bit yesterday and I'm interested.

Also, Falco players need to walk more. When you can walk as fast or even faster than some characters' runs, you should abuse that.

So when exactly should you walk over run? Only when you can abuse it on slower characters, or to approach or space?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

's in a precarious position in the meta. He's a very technical character who's well rounded but at the same time doesn't "player counterpick" very well, like SSB4 DK and Bowser. He's good enough to win with hard work yet outclassed by characters who have an easier time winning like Inkling and Wolf. There's not a good reason to play him other than dedicated preference. Top players probably won't pick him up when they can use someone better. I fear he'll fade into obscurity as the barely high tier who shows up in top 8s occasionally and never breaks outs.

So YL is going to be Smash 4 Peach? Because yeah a highly technical character. Im that game that was good enough to do very well (Look at Samsora) and I feel was high-tier. But with characters who could win easier like Bayo and Cloud, and why would most players pick Peach over characters like them

Btw you still think might become the better character. Tink projectile game may be a bit inferior but he has better range on his sword, is heavierand an easier time killing than YL overall

 

[earthboundspacefree]

I think that people initially thought poorly of him because of his tools changing from Sm4sh (namely side b cancel with shield). However, he’s still the fastest character by a significant margin in a game where speed matters a ton. He’s able to pressure the opponent and bait/punish easily by virtue of his speed alone. Because of his speed, his effective zone of influence is incredibly high. He doesn’t have to be close to whiff punish. I think results back up the fact that he’s solidly a high tier.

On that note, there’s been a common theme of “x character doesn’t have y tool from smash 4, so they’ve fallen off” from some people. I think people are coming around to seeing that this isn’t the case for many characters. is not as good as he was, but he still is a solid character. He has a grab grab game, but I think his falling a bit are more a result of the prevalence of sword characters than changes from the previous game. We’ve already seen that are great in spite of their throw game getting nerfed from last game. isn’t as free as he was last game, but he still has the same tools as last game, just toned down from transcendent to excellent. The only characters that seem to have fallen off significantly are (though I wonder if will see a big rise eventually - his toolkit is still so good that it’s hard to see him staying where he is). is way worse, and throws pebbles at opponents in a game rife with kill confirmsand strong kill moves. She’s flat out outclassed.

As for the big boys, I think are clearly the best. is clearly the worst. I think is better than people thing, but still not “good” per se. To be played most effectively, he needs to abuse his amazing ground speed. He has no auto cancel fair like he used to, but his ground too,s are what he should mainly be using anyway. Plus, his aerials serve their purpose when he’s in advantage stage, and his advantage state is pretty darn good. He has great oos options as well. Plus, he has the best escape from disadvantage in the game, which is a benefit he has over other heavies. As part of he isn’t just the guy you switch to out of ivy kill confirm range or when you’re at high percent. He is more versatile than that.

I don’t think this character is bottom three. They have buffed cannon, good combos off of up throw, interesting mechakoopa shenanigans, good poke in dtilt, decent escape option with dtilt, fair and Bair are really good (if a bit slow), clown kart does heavy shield damage and functions as an approach option or a mixup, up air is stupid good. Basically, they aren’t great, but the sum of their parts is clearly a step above where their tools are both a) not good and b) not very cohesive. I think he’s solidly low mid tier, but heavily underrepresented.

BUT MUH POTENTIAL:


Last game these characters were always the characters with incredible potential according to many, but this never came close to being met. This game, I feel they have the tools needed to reach that potential.

 

[Tri Knight]

I think that people initially thought poorly of him because of his tools changing from Sm4sh (namely side b cancel with shield). However, he’s still the fastest character by a significant margin in a game where speed matters a ton. He’s able to pressure the opponent and bait/punish easily by virtue of his speed alone. Because of his speed, his effective zone of influence is incredibly high. He doesn’t have to be close to whiff punish. I think results back up the fact that he’s solidly a high tier.

On that note, there’s been a common theme of “x character doesn’t have y tool from smash 4, so they’ve fallen off” from some people. I think people are coming around to seeing that this isn’t the case for many characters. is not as good as he was, but he still is a solid character. He has a grab grab game, but I think his falling a bit are more a result of the prevalence of sword characters than changes from the previous game. We’ve already seen that are great in spite of their throw game getting nerfed from last game. isn’t as free as he was last game, but he still has the same tools as last game, just toned down from transcendent to excellent. The only characters that seem to have fallen off significantly are (though I wonder if will see a big rise eventually - his toolkit is still so good that it’s hard to see him staying where he is). is way worse, and throws pebbles at opponents in a game rife with kill confirmsand strong kill moves. She’s flat out outclassed.

As for the big boys, I think are clearly the best. is clearly the worst. I think is better than people thing, but still not “good” per se. To be played most effectively, he needs to abuse his amazing ground speed. He has no auto cancel fair like he used to, but his ground too,s are what he should mainly be using anyway. Plus, his aerials serve their purpose when he’s in advantage stage, and his advantage state is pretty darn good. He has great oos options as well. Plus, he has the best escape from disadvantage in the game, which is a benefit he has over other heavies. As part of he isn’t just the guy you switch to out of ivy kill confirm range or when you’re at high percent. He is more versatile than that.

I don’t think this character is bottom three. They have buffed cannon, good combos off of up throw, interesting mechakoopa shenanigans, good poke in dtilt, decent escape option with dtilt, fair and Bair are really good (if a bit slow), clown kart does heavy shield damage and functions as an approach option or a mixup, up air is stupid good. Basically, they aren’t great, but the sum of their parts is clearly a step above where their tools are both a) not good and b) not very cohesive. I think he’s solidly low mid tier, but heavily underrepresented.

BUT MUH POTENTIAL:


Last game these characters were always the characters with incredible potential according to many, but this never came close to being met. This game, I feel they have the tools needed to reach that potential.

I always feel weird putting by himself because fact of the matter is, he's not. He's a part of 1 whole character. Anytime he may have trouble with an MU, you can always switch to or right? He has the advantage of being able to be something else at will. You could say Bowser or DK is the better super heavy than Charizard but then Charizard could switch to one of the little guys and maybe take Bowser or DK out, you know? I think the fact that Charizard doesnt HAVE to be Charizard if things aren't going his way is a huge advantage. That goes for all three of the pokemon for that matter.