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First point: if you don't care about future results, perhaps this isn't the thread for you. Strictly because we're trying to use data collected from the current results, as well as prior trends in previous games, to determine where characters will ultimately end up. This is why I tend to ask people to wait until at least May before we give tourney results greater weight.
Yeah, I think calling him mid is at kind of egregious. I don't think people are accounting for how many characters there are. Ness will show up in most "Top 25" lists, i.e. the Top Third, which to me places him distinctly out of "mid". Naming the first 12 that beat him out for top third may seem easy, but the next 12 gets a lot harder.
Exactly I think this is a useless argument right now and I think it’s going in circles
I think he’s really strong and very intuitive. It took me like two matches to pick him up and start playing him relatively well. He takes up so much space and on smaller stages he’s really oppressive. His side b, fair, and nair are really good and his down b breaks shields easy
is the exact opposite. His kill potential is great, he has good zoning options with things like Fair and PKFire, Dsmash is useful in situations like edge guarding, PKThunder harasses really well and can PKT2 kill if you're not careful, and Ness generally has good buttons. His air movement is good, Fair helps him wall and the new airdodges disproportionately aid his recovery. Unlike the Belmonts, he doesn't have a terrible recovery. He works well with Ultimate's engine. Ness is a high tier.
? I've been playing him a decent bit lately. He has some great strengths and a solid combo game, but I feel he is being held back by difficulty approaching, lack of horizontal air speed and acceleration, and struggles killing. Uair was nerfed as a kill move (but combos better), and he seems to rely on edgeguarding or fishing for bairs at high percent half the time.
On the latest official list, Ness was at the bottom of C tier, #28th in the game. #28th isn't that close to high tier. I think he might be a bit better in this game (relative to the cast) but I'm still skeptical of him being high tier. Players like FOW and Shaky and Awestin are very good though, and Ness might be at the top of high-mid even (which makes this discussion somewhat silly I guess, since the difference between the top of high-mid and the bottom of high tier isn't exactly huge).
Mid-mid at best, probably low-mid. As far as I know, he still has most of his Smash 4 flaws, and his up-Smash hitbox is worse. Keitaro does not seem to have much faith in him, and I think AC (now Armando) dropped him? Actually, I looked it up and he posted this a few hours ago:What are people's thoughts on
I think im going back to falco. In smash4 i used him because i felt bad because no one used him and I thought he was cool so I felt bad. In ulti I figured people would use him because hes good now but then they didnt so i feel bad about it again and well cya soon pgr
— Ac (@VamosAhce) February 5, 2019
Ness probably loses to swords, right? And many people seem to think Pichu also struggles with swords, so Inkling might be the better choice (though it's possible Inkling, too, struggles with swords, I haven't looked into Inkling's matchups as much as Pichu's).
Ness loses to swords for the most part. He doesn’t lose hard but they’re definitely his most difficult matchup. Yeah that’s why I was thinking Pichu might not be the best choice because he has similar matchup problems. Idk how Inkling does against swords but I like playing him. I should probably just pick up a pocket heavy even though I hate playing heavies
I was thinking Lucina she’s just such a cookie cutter character that doesn’t interest me that much. Wolf interests me tho
Yeah, I agree there. He has pretty much the same game plan as smash 4, but a stronger advantage state and a handful of questionable nerfs. I feel all he needs to be great is autocancelled lasers and maybe a faster dtilt or fair.
Diddy is largely the same as S4 but a little worse at some stuff, in a game where most other characters are better. Diddy is still really strong in neutral, it’s his disadvantage state and kill power that took the hits. His recovery is meaningfully weak now and Monkey Flip through the air -> B-reverse popgun cancel is awful with the new airdodges. His damage output is roughly the same and still good, but his kill potential is much worse simply because his smashes (which remain confirmable) seem much weaker? I’ve hit midweights from centre stage at 150 and they’ve survived all three smashes. The weakening of vertical KO power hurts Diddy a lot when Usmash used to reliably kill at 120ish from anywhere. He also lacks an aerial kill move besides Dair; this is a big deal, it was arguably Pikachu’s biggest weakness in S4 and why Heavy Skull Bash helped him out so much when it was legal.
since as an user I feel he does well against a few characters she stuggles with. for example
I’m definitely gonna look at picking him up. If he vibes with my play style he seems like the best choiceWolf is looking like a pretty effective pocket character in general, as we was at Genesis 6. I picked up him since as an
I completely agree honestly. However, F Smash seems to kill pretty well honestly. I can KO King Dedede from a Omega stage from roughly around the middle, around 150%. Diddy lost good stuff as D Tilt to U Smash, it takes very good prediction to kill with that reliably. U Air is about as "strong" as it was as the final patched version of Smash 4, so am used to it being underwhelming, but yeah if they would kindly buff F Air and U Air that would be amazing.
Tbh I don't see what Falco does that Wolf doesn't do but better. Wolf's blaster controls the pace of neutral better than Falco's lasers do. Wolf has the potent air game that Falco is supposed to have to compliment the ground control his blaster gives. Wolf has a potent ground game as well as a bonus that Falco doesn't really have. Both characters not necessarily being that fast on the ground but Wolf has the advantage of being much faster in the air than Falco does. Hell they both even have about the same subpar recovery options (Falco has an slight edge thanks to his double jump height).Are we still talking about Ness? I'm pretty sure half this thread is ness-talk lol. Ness is a very strong character with exploitable weaknesses, somewhat like chrom, can we move on?
What are people's thoughts on
I can't help but feel he is upper-mid at best, he has the tools to almost be oppressive but is best played in a defensive manner, and his blaster isn't strong or fast enough to camp out most of the cast.
Fun fact: Falco's blaster fires frame 8 of 41 total (7 and 38 in the air) and Wolf's fires 15 of 49. Wolf's blast is bigger and has a bayonet to be fair. Wolf is the better character due to movement and reach overall but he's different enough from Falco to not be a better version.
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I think its very clear what the problem is and it's that people are utilizing too much "impression" of a character, especially outside of the context of Ultimate without expressing what the results actually are. In other words, people have formed an opinon that directly contrast with the results thus shown. Sometimes you need to form an impression especially if there's no results to back it up. But that impression should be used to prove your point, to show the results of your opinion.
as an example. Plant is such a new character with so little results under him, that the only thing we can do is make an impression. Some say his specials provide an excellent way of spacing, mixing and edgeguarding. Others claim his poor neutral game and recovery hurts him way too much to be good. He's got a few tournament results, even a win in one case but one could just as easily claim this is due to a lack of knowledge on Plant. As time goes on, we will get more results about Plant and have a firmer idea of where to put him. Don't have much of a choice but make an impression and the idea is we'll use that impression to prove whether we are right or wrong. is another character we can do such a thing with, in this case his recovery. There used to be two impressions, one was that his recovery was much better than in Smash4, gave him multiple options and some even declared him a good character now. The other side of course said that, even if it might have been technically better, it was still heavily flawed and it wasn't going to help him much, if at all. You had two different impressions but one of them, the "Little Mac sucks off stage" crowd was right. Because they had the results to back up their claim. By the end of the day, it was proven that Little Mac still suffered from the same thing he did before.
thing:
A big difference between Wolf and Falco's laser is the damage and knockback however. Wolf's blaster deals around 8-9.6 percent depending on when it hits, 15 if you hit the bayonet hitbox as well, it also deals knockback to further push opponents away. Falco's while better frame wise deal only around 3.8% and just make you flinch, if your opponent jumps in on you as your firing Falco's lasers you can be punished for it while with Wolf you'll get launched due to the bayonet. They both cover the roughly the same distance and they both cannot clang with hitboxes (Which is why it's more effective of a zone move than say YL's arrows.) You have to either jump over it which Wolf can cover easily with his great aerials and fast air speed, shield it, parry it which is risky of course or dodge through it which stales your defensive options. I don't think it's that people are letting Wolf get away with blaster zoning more rather it's legitimately good when used properly and many characters have to deal with it if they don't have a way to negate it (Ness, Lucas, G&W, etc) or don't have to play with it thanks to their own projectiles, reflect or good air stats that make jumping over it more of an option. (Fox, Wario, etc.)
had some brief discussion because of the discovery of his silly KO confirm, but that is it. is a big question mark, and I am not sure if the buffs in 2.0.0 will bring out of low tier (ZeRo thinks so, but he tends to underrate/overrate the effect of a balance change). What are your guys thoughts on the Miis?. Curious on your guys thoughts on him as well.
I consider Charizard my personal strongest of the three and let me tell you, there's very good reasons not to start out with Charizard.
absolutely has the chance to take the crown of best heavy in this game, it's like the whole "Momentum" thing with where once they get into the advantage state you can find yourself in big trouble if you don't get them out of it, but with Bowser it's even more scary with how fast he is and the armour buffs he's gotten. Even with Bowser's awful disadvantage, it's nowhere near as bad as it was before since now it's no longer "Make a wrong move and you get ladder combo'd to death at 90%" and for offstage, the overall buff to up B moves linking can make Bowser a little tricky to intercept without getting hit and dragged into the move for a good chunk of damage. still has the potential to outpace him though, both of them got their grab games toned down but DK's is a whole lot more varied and threatening then Bowser's, plus he got a lot of the same good changes Bowser got along with the overall fear factor of Giant Punch being a big help. It'll probably be a long while before we get a definite answer on which bests the other overall., I just found out today his crown can be straight up destroyed. Kirby and Wario can outright eat the crown and oddly enough, if the crown is reflected too much it just completely disappears and you have to wait for it to respawn again. I swear someday there's going to be a dedicated K.Rool player who'll actually use him to his fullest and not rely on the gimmicks but I'm not holding my breath.On both of the results sheets I follow, Dedede is ahead of both. 22nd on one, 30th on another, with bowser/dk 5-8 spots behind. He probably needs to be part of the best heavyweight discussion, although gordos took a little bit of a hitbox nerf.
Bonus Heavyweight note: Just to add another knock against
The change is so insignificant that it doesn't really change Dedede's Gordo game. There is also new Gordo tech with c stick set to special.
I agree with the Sheik comparison (atleast for now).