Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Aligo]

It closely resembles the official tier list too, with some minor differences. In fact I think the top 7 are in nearly the exact order.

I am surprised that Joker has managed to retain the number two spot, I thought it would have gotten to Steve>Sonic>Aegis>Joker by now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I am surprised that Joker has managed to retain the number two spot, I thought it would have gotten to Steve>Sonic>Aegis>Joker by now.

Aegis got 100 votes in Top+, 24 votes in Top-. Joker got 100 votes in Top+, 22 votes in Top-. It was close! Sonic got 95 votes in Top+, 24 votes in Top-. Steve got 123 votes in Top+, 4 votes in Top- (but only 5+ votes counted in order to deal with troll votes).

Keep in mind that when voting you can only choose between Top+/Top- in practice for characters like Joker and Aegis, and many voted both in Top+, even if they might've put Aegis over Joker in their own tier list.

3 people voted Joker in high tier. Ironically enough, if they had voted him in Top- instead Aegis would've been higher, hah. One person voted Aegis in high tier.

Pikachu: 52 Top+, 40 Top-, 21 High+, 6 High-. Interesting. For Sephiroth: 13 Top-, 56 High+, 41 High-, 9 Mid+. Apparently there are still some people who think he's mid tier, and some that think he's top tier, but most seem to have settled for high tier now (and he seems to be leaning High+ overall.)

Ganondorf: 12 Low-, 102 Bottom. Poor guy. Little Mac, the second lowest, had 11 Low+, 45 Low-. 54 Bottom (and the OP mentioned that Little Mac and Dedede actually were Low- rather than Bottom). King Dedede 27 Low+, 45 Low-, 40 Bottom.

 

[Aligo]

Aegis got 100 votes in Top+, 24 votes in Top-. Joker got 100 votes in Top+, 22 votes in Top-. It was close! Sonic got 95 votes in Top+, 24 votes in Top-. Steve got 123 votes in Top+, 4 votes in Top- (but only 5+ votes counted in order to deal with troll votes).

Keep in mind that when voting you can only choose between Top+/Top- in practice for characters like Joker and Aegis, and many voted both in Top+, even if they might've put Aegis over Joker in their own tier list.

3 people voted Joker in high tier. Ironically enough, if they had voted him in Top- instead Aegis would've been higher, hah. One person voted Aegis in high tier.

Pikachu: 52 Top+, 40 Top-, 21 High+, 6 High-. Interesting. For Sephiroth: 13 Top-, 56 High+, 41 High-, 9 Mid+. Apparently there are still some people who think he's mid tier, and some that think he's top tier, but most seem to have settled for high tier now (and he seems to be leaning High+ overall.)

Ganondorf: 12 Low-, 102 Bottom. Poor guy. Little Mac, the second lowest, had 11 Low+, 45 Low-. 54 Bottom (and the OP mentioned that Little Mac and Dedede actually were Low- rather than Bottom). King Dedede 27 Low+, 45 Low-, 40 Bottom.

That explains it! Thanks.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

UltStats update

Character data update for the start of April on UltStats. R.O.B. is statistically about the same as Steve at this point as Steve puts up his worst week in months. Bayonetta has surpassed Peach, and sheik/ZSS continue to be near the 30 mark. Ice Climbers continue to climb. pic.twitter.com/x0fWcASfXZ

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) April 3, 2023

 

[williamsga555]

Steve has a top 3 recovery thanks to a most likely unintended angle being possible with elytra, allowing Steve to get back to the stage from the bottom corner, and can stall offstage for long periods thanks to blocks.

Yeah, his recovery is fantastic, no doubt there. If he's coming back from a typical position off stage, there's not much that can be done to intercept it due to the number of angle mixups and stalls he's capable of.
That said, if he finds himself in a position where he needs to exploit that weird Elytra angle? That can be challenged since he can't afford to change the angle at all, and it's not well protected. It's pretty rare that Steve will ever be in this kind of position from disadvantage however, so the opportunity to try and pounce on it isn't great.

Instead, Steve needs to be ledgetrapped. He can stall and mix up the timing off of ledge really well thanks to blocks, but his actual means of getting back on stage from ledge aren't great. His low double jump means he can't drop ledge→double jump far above stage, so if he wants to go high for minecart, he has to actually commit to ledgejump. He can try for the low-profile Elytra reversal, but that's reactable (especially since he needs to jump first anyway).

Disadvantage is also dangerous for the opponent, as at any time Steve can either drop a large projectile that does 20+% damage and kills stupidity early or can escape either using the armoured mine cart or angled elytra to ledge.

Steve's disadvantage is excellent for sure, no dissent there. I can bring up that Anvil and Minecart both cost resources to use, which is a downside, but I know it's a foregone conclusion that Steve will often have those resources and they are relatively easy to replenish.

A different angle to approach is, well, to approach from a different angle. Specifically diagonally below Steve, as he doesn't have anything to directly challenge that area. Anvil is a big hitbox, but horizontally it's not obscene (just a little wider than Steve in the direction he's facing), and neither fair nor bair hits below him. His aerial drift is mediocre and his air speed is awful, so it's hard for him to maneuver himself away from diagonally pressure without bailing on the situation through Minecart.

Which, yes, Minecart is a crazy burst mobility option afforded to him, I'm not overlooking that. It's a great tool that a lot of slower characters can't really contest because they can't reposition themselves to chase it down effectively after it's used. The one solace is that it forces Steve back into the corner -a position he likes when he has time to set up the 3-block wall, but coming fresh from disadvantage means he won't always have that time. Matchup and stage positioning dependent here, but I'll readily admit that retreating with Minecart is a pretty cracked option.

[QUOTE="Aligo, post: 24832219, member: 479088"The main things holding back Steve currently is the dilution of the playerbase due to a high number of fighters, top players being reluctant to play the character for the most part and a player base that is very weak relative to its size.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I agree with any of these points, to be honest.

...the dilution of the playerbase due to a high number of fighters...​

Surely this goes both ways? It's arguing that Steve would be even better if he had a larger playerbase pushing him, but that could be said of a majority of the characters.

...top players being reluctant to play the character for the most part...​

Undeniably true, but this doesn't really mean much without knowing the exact reasons why. The reality is that the variety amongst the top players in this game is quite good, so most of the characters we'd typically lump together as high/top tiers only have a small handful of top players each.

...a player base that is very weak relative to its size.​

Same as point one, really: surely this goes both ways? If you think Steve isn't reaching his full potential because you believe the player base is weak, couldn't it also be said that counterplay against him isn't reaching full potential for the same reason?

 

[Sucumbio]

The problem with Steve is the normal offensive game plan gets revoked quickly and painfully. His buttons hurt like hell when you do go for a follow up. It's like you have to pretend you're Sonic. Where Sonic tags and runs tags and runs, fighting Steve means tagging him then running. People already hate Sonic for being designed this way let alone the whole cast having to play this way over one character. But so long as PMLG isn't used no I don't think a ban is necessary. Just makes playing the game suck.

 

[Rizen]

Several things:
I think Aegis has solidified themselves to be the number 2 character. The last batch of tournaments is just one of a long line they've appeared multiple times in top 8 including 3 in Major Upset. Also look at Orion stats. Joker and Sonic are both excellent characters but they don't get anywhere near the results of Aegis.

Results for MAJOR UPSET

1. Sparg0
2. MkLeo
3. Riddles
4. Big D
5. Jakal
5. Kurama
7. BassMage
7. Chase

Joker is a close third though. He's one of those characters where the devs decided to give him everything. Good recovery, great neutral in both CQC and mid-range, guns give him an above average disadvantage state and of course outrageous kill power with Arsen- which isn't hard to get. I agree more with the top 100 player MU chart than the Reddit one.

A few things about the last tournaments: Skittles beat Esam: I've always said Young Link has a good MU vs the rats. YL is a character of strengths and weaknesses. His disadvantage state sucks vs big disjoints like swordies but his amazing neutral beats other characters who traditionally win in neutral like Diddy, DH, Sheik and the rats. He also has a f4 Nair that is great vs stubby characters who like to juggle. He's a good counterpick character but has too many bad MUs to win anything more than regionals solo.

Mario beats Wolf. As seen by Ludo beating Jackle. Wolf only has a handful of bad MUs but they generally include quick little characters who can slip past his amazing mid-range game and outbutton him with fast attacks. Mario's one; it's very hard for wolf to escape juggles by Mario. IMO Wolf loses to the rats, Mario, Inkling, Joker, Kazuya and Terry just because their CQC has such high payoff, and possibly Greninja.

 

[Aligo]

Yeah, his recovery is fantastic, no doubt there. If he's coming back from a typical position off stage, there's not much that can be done to intercept it due to the number of angle mixups and stalls he's capable of.
That said, if he finds himself in a position where he needs to exploit that weird Elytra angle? That can be challenged since he can't afford to change the angle at all, and it's not well protected. It's pretty rare that Steve will ever be in this kind of position from disadvantage however, so the opportunity to try and pounce on it isn't great.

Instead, Steve needs to be ledgetrapped. He can stall and mix up the timing off of ledge really well thanks to blocks, but his actual means of getting back on stage from ledge aren't great. His low double jump means he can't drop ledge→double jump far above stage, so if he wants to go high for minecart, he has to actually commit to ledgejump. He can try for the low-profile Elytra reversal, but that's reactable (especially since he needs to jump first anyway).


Steve's disadvantage is excellent for sure, no dissent there. I can bring up that Anvil and Minecart both cost resources to use, which is a downside, but I know it's a foregone conclusion that Steve will often have those resources and they are relatively easy to replenish.

A different angle to approach is, well, to approach from a different angle. Specifically diagonally below Steve, as he doesn't have anything to directly challenge that area. Anvil is a big hitbox, but horizontally it's not obscene (just a little wider than Steve in the direction he's facing), and neither fair nor bair hits below him. His aerial drift is mediocre and his air speed is awful, so it's hard for him to maneuver himself away from diagonally pressure without bailing on the situation through Minecart.

Which, yes, Minecart is a crazy burst mobility option afforded to him, I'm not overlooking that. It's a great tool that a lot of slower characters can't really contest because they can't reposition themselves to chase it down effectively after it's used. The one solace is that it forces Steve back into the corner -a position he likes when he has time to set up the 3-block wall, but coming fresh from disadvantage means he won't always have that time. Matchup and stage positioning dependent here, but I'll readily admit that retreating with Minecart is a pretty cracked option.

[QUOTE="Aligo, post: 24832219, member: 479088"The main things holding back Steve currently is the dilution of the playerbase due to a high number of fighters, top players being reluctant to play the character for the most part and a player base that is very weak relative to its size.

I'm not sure I agree with any of these points, to be honest.

...the dilution of the playerbase due to a high number of fighters...​

Surely this goes both ways? It's arguing that Steve would be even better if he had a larger playerbase pushing him, but that could be said of a majority of the characters.

...top players being reluctant to play the character for the most part...​

Undeniably true, but this doesn't really mean much without knowing the exact reasons why. The reality is that the variety amongst the top players in this game is quite good, so most of the characters we'd typically lump together as high/top tiers only have a small handful of top players each.

...a player base that is very weak relative to its size.​

Same as point one, really: surely this goes both ways? If you think Steve isn't reaching his full potential because you believe the player base is weak, couldn't it also be said that counterplay against him isn't reaching full potential for the same reason?
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for responding, I can see how the comments about the playerbase can apply both ways. Also approaching from a diagonally below when in advantage could work, but not many characters have good coverage at that angle.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Reddit finally getting that Cloud is nice : )

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Reddit finally getting that Cloud is nice : )

The Ike & Pichu placements are less wack as well. lol

 

[Frihetsanka]

I thought it might be fun to compare the Reddit tier list for January/February 2022 (which was after the last patch, 13.0.1 was December 2021).

Steve and Kazuya being significantly lower is the most obvious difference. Pikachu still making top 3 is also noteworthy. Shulk making top tier is also noteworthy. I feel like, as time goes on, characters with "potential" that don't seem to live up to it tend to fall off in tier lists, until people start proving that they deserve to be that high. Many players still think Shulk is top tier but the Reddit tier list now puts him in high tier.

Chrom dropping from High Tier+ to Mid Tier+ is also noteworthy. Bayonetta moving up to High Tier- from lower Mid Tier+ is also noteworthy. Incineroar and Ice Climbers moving up to Mid Tier+ from Mid Tier- and Low Tier+ is also worth noting. Palutena and Wolf dropped quite a bit too.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Imo Mario is shaping up to look like a top tier now that ppl are showing up with a practiced combo game and a familiarity with the character that lets the improvise effectively when they get a hit, letting them push advantage further in more situations.

Swordies can't hold him back like they used to, and he doesn't do bad vs Steve with good tools vs the ****** and a punish game and kill potential that lets him keep up with Steves overtuned buttons if he lands some of his stuff.

Mario to me looks like he's got more going for him than Wolf in today's meta. Also: Imagine Zackray playing Mario! Would really like to see that lol.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Imo Mario is shaping up to look like a top tier now that ppl are showing up with a practiced combo game and a familiarity with the character that lets the improvise effectively when they get a hit, letting them push advantage further in more situations.

Swordies can't hold him back like they used to, and he doesn't do bad vs Steve with good tools vs the ****** and a punish game and kill potential that lets him keep up with Steves overtuned buttons if he lands some of his stuff.

Mario to me looks like he's got more going for him than Wolf in today's meta. Also: Imagine Zackray playing Mario! Would really like to see that lol.

Zackray's already won a major with Mario, using him a couple of times in tournament alongside Joker and ROB, and used him in Grand Finals. This was back in 2020 though, so it's been a while.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/eo217q

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Character stats for 2022

Melee and Ultimate character stats for 2022! If you're interested in a more indepth breakdown, I cover it in the video linked below. pic.twitter.com/iah4Nuzr1v

— EazyFreezie (@EazyFreezie) April 8, 2023

 

[NairWizard]

Speaking of ROB, ROB is hilarious lmao -- how can a character have been around for so long, with so many mains, having achieved so much, yet advanced so little in metagame?

it's incredible how even a little bit of genuine neutral talent when it comes to ROB seems so impressive because of it, too.

"oh my God, Zomba is using b-air!? ROB has a b-air!?"

"Is Leo the best ROB because he knows how to do basic tech chases!?"

"BigBoss is using PARRIES!? ROB is revolutionized!!!"

Character is totally insane and is held back only by the sheer unwillingness of ROB mains to really invest in exploring his normals. Makes me miss zackray.

Great stuff to BigBoss, what a showing.

 

[Aligo]

Speaking of ROB, ROB is hilarious lmao -- how can a character have been around for so long, with so many mains, having achieved so much, yet advanced so little in metagame?

it's incredible how even a little bit of genuine neutral talent when it comes to ROB seems so impressive because of it, too.

"oh my God, Zomba is using b-air!? ROB has a b-air!?"

"Is Leo the best ROB because he knows how to do basic tech chases!?"

"BigBoss is using PARRIES!? ROB is revolutionized!!!"

Character is totally insane and is held back only by the sheer unwillingness of ROB mains to really invest in exploring his normals. Makes me miss zackray.

Great stuff to BigBoss, what a showing.

Character with excellent everything and only one real 'weakness' with absurd tech kept in check only in the ability of the players?

I can't 'place' who that might be, something has 'blocked' my thought process.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Character with excellent everything and only one real 'weakness' with absurd tech kept in check only in the ability of the players?

I can't 'place' who that might be, something has 'blocked' my thought process.

This just seems petty.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Kowloon 5

1. Shuton
2. Miya
3. Asimo
4. Yaura
5. Shirayuki
5. Cosmos
7. Taikei
7. Umeki
9. Omuatsu
9. Paseriman
9. Manzoku
9. Niyae
13. Raito
13. Hurt
13. takera
13. Nao
17. Eupho
17. Jogibu
17. Chonren
17. Ryuoh
17. Tarakatori
17. Senra
17. Beji
17. Shogun

Speaking about Japan

SOMEONE JUST DONATED $2000

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR SUPPORT, IM GOING TO JAPAN!!!!!! https://t.co/WbMI8VidYc pic.twitter.com/pDtMU2AgDl

— FaZe Sparg0 (@Sparg0ssb) April 9, 2023

Sparg0 is going to Kagaribi 10.

 

[Aligo]

This just seems petty.

I suppose it is a little, my attempts of humour were flawed . Mostly just because Steve and Rob are both miles ahead in terms of overall stats, and both have really powerful tech and setups that the players of the character don't use. Oh and both never got hit with any real balance patches either.

Thinking about patches, how do you think that pre nerf wolf and palutena would fare in the current metagame?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Thinking about patches, how do you think that pre nerf wolf and palutena would fare in the current metagame?

We'd be seeing more lazer spam and slightly cheesier D-Smash kills with , though he did get some minor QoL changes along the way, so probably would be around the same where he is now. He's super good.

could end up slugging it out with the Aegis & , and she'd completely shut down some MUs, notably heavies with Nair and D-Throw confirms.
Though nothing too huge.


Honestly, Ult's patches went easy on the nerfs, no characters got stomped into the ground, especially compared to how hard they can get hit from the transition to a new Smash game.

& maybe were the only ones to get hit moderately hard IMO, but they're still great characters. (Save your essays on Pichu & Olimar)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Looking at this video, giving Kirby the ability to heal significantly after swallowing a projectile as well as Final Cutter having a much faster start up time would be reasonable buffs that would help for the next title, whenever that comes.

Character stats for 2022

Melee and Ultimate character stats for 2022! If you're interested in a more indepth breakdown, I cover it in the video linked below. pic.twitter.com/iah4Nuzr1v

— EazyFreezie (@EazyFreezie) April 8, 2023

Huh, ROB placed higher than Steve.

 

[Aligo]

Looking at this video, giving Kirby the ability to heal significantly after swallowing a projectile as well as Final Cutter having a much faster start up time would be reasonable buffs that would help for the next title, whenever that comes.



Huh, ROB placed higher than Steve.

I personally think the best way to improve Kirby without changing his base stats is to replace hammer with a burst movement side special, like beetle or suplex. Both would still be simple for beginners, and would also help Kirby when approaching.

 

[Rizen]

I think ROB does better at mid levels of play than top levels. He was number one on Orion stats for a long time but never won anything major that I remember. Inversely, I think Aegis does better at the top level, where MKLeo, Shuton and Spargo use them.

can be very threatening up close and offstage. He has a good combo game and can stick to you once he gets on you for high damage. His kill power isn't bad either. Offstage he can Dair drill you for a spike than repeat with multiple jumps for early kills.
Aside from these strengths, Kirby's definitely a weak character. Terrible movement, bad range, not good enough with projectiles to match specialists, and extremely light. Kirby's copy ability isn't useful enough to help make up these deficits. All this in a roster where there are characters who are equally strong without the crippling weaknesses. Better burst options would greatly benefit him.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I personally think the best way to improve Kirby without changing his base stats is to replace hammer with a burst movement side special, like beetle or suplex. Both would still be simple for beginners, and would also help Kirby when approaching.

Yup, I agree with this. His side smash could then be replaced with a Hammer swing.

 

[NairWizard]

Kirby's risk-reward is just bad, that's the only problem. His design is fine but his numbers are undertuned.

He's fast enough on the ground to be competitive and has some dangerous normals. The issue is that his recovery is exploitable and he doesn't hit you hard enough when he does get in to justify playing him over other characters who have a hard time getting in. Compare Kirby to someone like Luigi who has similar speed/range problems -- Luigi does way more damage, and despite also having an exploitable recovery can make it back pretty often against several common archetypes since up-b is fast. Luigi is also heavier.

You could fix all of Kirby's issues by just making Final Cutter's ledge snap better, thereby reducing risk.

 

[superjm]

The way to fix Kirby has been glaring and obvious since Melee. Give him better air speed and acceleration.

His atrocious air speed has been an anchor around his neck for 2 decades now and has succeeded in undermining every good part of his kit. He doesn't even need to be Jigglypuff. Just give him, for example, Pikachu's air stats with no other changes and he instantly rises 2-3 tiers.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The thing about Kirby being slow in the air is that it's clearly inspired by main series Kirby games.

In those games you can just float over all your problems, so skilled players are rewarded by moving faster if they stick to the ground. In Smash he's designed with that idea in mind, where new players like to float above their enemies and Spam specials (especially stone) while more skilled Kirby players are meant to be rewarded by using his normals and sticking close to the ground.

Making him faster in the air would make him a lot better, sure, but it'd also betray the core design philosophy. Besides, "make them faster" is the most obvious way to improve any character, and therefore the most boring.

 

[superjm]

The thing about Kirby being slow in the air is that it's clearly inspired by main series Kirby games.

In those games you can just float over all your problems, so skilled players are rewarded by moving faster if they stick to the ground. In Smash he's designed with that idea in mind, where new players like to float above their enemies and Spam specials (especially stone) while more skilled Kirby players are meant to be rewarded by using his normals and sticking close to the ground.

Making him faster in the air would make him a lot better, sure, but it'd also betray the core design philosophy. Besides, "make them faster" is the most obvious way to improve any character, and therefore the most boring.

Well if you want to go that route, then I can go with my other foolproof but cracked method to make Kirby better.

Just give him infinite jumps!

This isn't even that much of a joke honestly. It obviously won't or shouldn't happen because nobody in the world wants to see even more air camping, but given his already terrible air speed and the relative weakness of his later jumps it'd open up a unique style to play while not making it that difficult for opponents to chase him down if need be. Maybe. Possibly? At the very least it would be completely true to his games of origin.

 

[NairWizard]

You don't need to alter a character's fundamental design to make the character competitive, in basically any case. Kirby does not need infinite jumps or better movement stats. Slight tweaks will suffice to make him middle of the pack, and if you add a few more tweaks on top of that, you'll get a high- or top-tier character. Increase Kirby's reward on hit or improve his recovery, and Kirby would be pushing mid tier. Do both, and he'd be pushing high tier. Do both, and then also give him some additional d-tilt confirms (d-tilt n-air, d-tilt d-smash at close range, etc), and he'd be top tier.

Ganon and Zelda are the hardest characters to balance imo. Not sure what you would do to either kit to make it competitive.

Though giving Ganon Steve's hitstun canceling tech would be hilarious.

 

[Sucumbio]

Make Final Cutter come out quicker imo. He stays out too long before going up and he's a sitting duck.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ganon and Zelda are the hardest characters to balance imo. Not sure what you would do to either kit to make it competitive.

Though giving Ganon Steve's hitstun canceling tech would be hilarious.

It is close to impossible to make them competitive without either a moveset/design rework.

Ganondorf being the slow, stubby brawler that focuses on power above all else is fundamentally flawed as a character in mid/high level competitive play. The only reason why Melee Ganondorf was anything remotely decent was because he shared almost his entire moveset and animations with Falcon with only slightly different attributes, but even then Melee Ganondorf has been gradually falling off in the meta in the past several years.

Zelda has a notoriously fundamentally flawed moveset, which is unfortunately the byproduct of being designed as the "land-the-KO move" half of the Zelda/Sheik dynamic all the way back in Melee. They designed her with that vision in-mind and didn't really put too much thought about how she would function as an independent character. Tragically, Sheik had great KO power in Melee so there was doubly no point in using Zelda in that game. Brawl had the right idea of heavily nerfing Sheik's KO power to give better emphasis on Zelda's better KO power, but it ultimately falls apart due to the slow-as-heck Transform and the fact that you are still using Zelda.
Ultimate Phantom Slash is a nice step in the right direction for giving Zelda as a character actual direction in what she wants to do, but that is simply a new tool added while the rest of her moveset remains the same, of course with various QoL changes, but fundamentally the same moveset. It is no coincidence that Phantom Slash ended up being her best move.

 

[NairWizard]

Ganondorf being the slow, stubby brawler that focuses on power above all else is fundamentally flawed as a character in mid/high level competitive play.

It's really unfortunate, and I don't buy the "but casuals" excuse any longer. Incineroar is in the same game. Incineroar just has better burst, better recovery, better disadvantage escape, better ledgetrapping, better frame data, better depth, better OOS. The only thing I can think of that Ganon does better is jump read callouts with up-smash.

What's the point of even using Ganon in this game?

Give him something. Anything. Better ledgetrapping, better combo game, something.

 

[Aligo]

It's really unfortunate, and I don't buy the "but casuals" excuse any longer. Incineroar is in the same game. Incineroar just has better burst, better recovery, better disadvantage escape, better ledgetrapping, better frame data, better depth, better OOS. The only thing I can think of that Ganon does better is jump read callouts with up-smash.

What's the point of even using Ganon in this game?

Give him something. Anything. Better ledgetrapping, better combo game, something.

Kazuya could also be considered a direct upgrade to ganondorf as well.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I remember watching a video talking about how Ganondorf is the worst performing heavy character by virtue of sticking the most closely to the pure “power for speed” trade-off without much compensation and since trading power for speed is not an equal exchange in a platform fighter, the problem becomes apparent.

As for Zelda the most obvious changes that she could use are to her Side B to give it much more utility (something akin to what Project Plus did would be nice) and to either her forward air or back air because she absolutely does not need two Lightning Kicks.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Kirby's risk-reward is just bad, that's the only problem. His design is fine but his numbers are undertuned.

He's fast enough on the ground to be competitive and has some dangerous normals. The issue is that his recovery is exploitable and he doesn't hit you hard enough when he does get in to justify playing him over other characters who have a hard time getting in. Compare Kirby to someone like Luigi who has similar speed/range problems -- Luigi does way more damage, and despite also having an exploitable recovery can make it back pretty often against several common archetypes since up-b is fast. Luigi is also heavier.

You could fix all of Kirby's issues by just making Final Cutter's ledge snap better, thereby reducing risk.

Yeah, big agree with this. In Sm4sh Kirby had an up-b that was basically like Marth/Lucinas, and it worked wonders for them. Kirby also struggles to combo vertically sometimes because they just can't get up there fast enough. A better up-b that can be used to finish aerial combos would help them greatly in that regard too, this too was very evident in Sm4sh when MikeKirby (hope I remember this player name correctly) was using the custom up-b.

Still would like to see the side-b replaced with something you can actually use.

And Inhale should have a bigger absorbing hitbox for projectiles. It's stupid that projectiles can still hit Kirby when they are absorbing if they land slightly below or above the middle of Kirby. The projectile absorb should also come out 3 frames earlier imo. Right now absorb is just a bad option vs projectiles and Kirby doesn't have great answers to projectiles.

Finally would like faster startup on dair. It allows for so much cool **** but is held back by its slow startup.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Ganondorf's issue to me isn't just his poor mobility. There are several characters with bad mobility but are good characters because they have something very good/busted about them in other ways. Byleth, Corrin, Ike and Pyra have range and big disjoints, Steve has amazing frame data, Block, a great recovery and Minecart, Incineroar has great normals and specials, Kazuya can touch of death people and has invincibility on a lot of moves etc.

Ganondorf has very little of value. His frame data is not great, his high killpower means he can't start many combos, he has two nigh-useless moves in Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick, his smash attacks have blindspots, mid OOS options, and his recovery is bad. He might be the best he's been since Melee, but he was absolutely abhorrent in Brawl and Smash 4 so that doesn't mean much.

IMO he's the only actual bottom tier character in the game. Larry Lurr did a video on him that discusses why he's so bad.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Dev team don't understand how crippling poor air speed in combination with bad recovery moves are. Both Doc and Ganon suffer tremendously because of this. Apart from the fact that they die easily off stage risking your stock everytime you use your second jump or even if you just get sent off stage forces you to play more conservatively which in turn hurts your offensive capabilities.

Ganon can do some nice frame traps with his aerials using IDJs. Doc can also do cool stuff with IDJs. But the risk reward ratio man...
Dr Mario's up-b should just go as far as Mario's and his down-b should move him further in the air. You are still a sitting duck if you use his down-b when recovering so it could at least cover some distance.
As for Ganon they need to fix rockcrocking, increase the distance covered by his up-b both vertically and horizontally, have him not go into fastfall after side-b'ing, and make him win if he Ganoncides his opponent and both are on their last stock.

This is incompetence on the side of the Devs imo.
The other thing that kinda sucks with Ganon is his lack of reliable combos outside of late dash attack. He hits hard but in this game a ton of characters still deal way more damage when they get a hit in. Make his down-throw combo better ffs. Make him be able to use fastfall uairs like Falcon. Finally buff the down-b, he needs a proper burst option.

You could do all this and Ganon would still suck so Wtf Devs? He's a fan favourite treat him like one. At least a little bit.

 

[meleebrawler]

Dev team don't understand how crippling poor air speed in combination with bad recovery moves are. Both Doc and Ganon suffer tremendously because of this. Apart from the fact that they die easily off stage risking your stock everytime you use your second jump or even if you just get sent off stage forces you to play more conservatively which in turn hurts your offensive capabilities.

Ganon can do some nice frame traps with his aerials using IDJs. Doc can also do cool stuff with IDJs. But the risk reward ratio man...
Dr Mario's up-b should just go as far as Mario's and his down-b should move him further in the air. You are still a sitting duck if you use his down-b when recovering so it could at least cover some distance.
As for Ganon they need to fix rockcrocking, increase the distance covered by his up-b both vertically and horizontally, have him not go into fastfall after side-b'ing, and make him win if he Ganoncides his opponent and both are on their last stock.

This is incompetence on the side of the Devs imo.
The other thing that kinda sucks with Ganon is his lack of reliable combos outside of late dash attack. He hits hard but in this game a ton of characters still deal way more damage when they get a hit in. Make his down-throw combo better ffs. Make him be able to use fastfall uairs like Falcon. Finally buff the down-b, he needs a proper burst option.

You could do all this and Ganon would still suck so Wtf Devs? He's a fan favourite treat him like one. At least a little bit.

If we're talking Ganon fans in Smash specifically, the thing is it's kind of precisely because Ganondorf is so bad that he has such a following. It's hard to hate an underdog after all.

The identity they give Ganondorf in Smash isn't merely "super slow and super powerful", it's "the guy that can kill with practically ALL of his moves". Like, literally only his jab, Flame Choke and nair (and even that is still pretty dangerous offstage) don't kill at reasonable percentages. And I'm pretty sure a lot of little kids who don't know what combos are find just pushing buttons in the general direction of the enemy and watching them die very entertaining. I keep bringing up his All-Star Melee trophy all but admitting his design is not good in 1v1s ie competitive. It's not dev incompetence, it's dev apathy to the wishes of a very small percentage of a game's audience. Like it or not, Ganondorf in all these Smash years has built an identity of someone you play not to win, but to make a statement. Crowds and online players looking for ego boosts eat that up, and in Ultimate that kind of character is damn near one of a kind. Only Little Mac with his very dramatic air handicaps comes close.

Side note, it's extremely amusing to be speaking of the almost literal devil when we just got this:

Spoiler

Only time will tell how he fights, though I'm not sure how fans will react if he ends up becoming a more typical swordie. Not sure if he will ever be a fast mover though, all his other boss fights have him move just as slow as in Smash normally.

Last thing: Ganondorf's design has left him the uncontested king of Home-Run Contest, even after all these years and DLC. You may scoff but there's a life in this game outside of competitive.

 

[Arthur97]

As for the spoiler:

Spoiler

They have so far refused to rework him significantly, why would this be any different?

 

[Aligo]

Dev team don't understand how crippling poor air speed in combination with bad recovery moves are. Both Doc and Ganon suffer tremendously because of this. Apart from the fact that they die easily off stage risking your stock everytime you use your second jump or even if you just get sent off stage forces you to play more conservatively which in turn hurts your offensive capabilities.

Ganon can do some nice frame traps with his aerials using IDJs. Doc can also do cool stuff with IDJs. But the risk reward ratio man...
Dr Mario's up-b should just go as far as Mario's and his down-b should move him further in the air. You are still a sitting duck if you use his down-b when recovering so it could at least cover some distance.
As for Ganon they need to fix rockcrocking, increase the distance covered by his up-b both vertically and horizontally, have him not go into fastfall after side-b'ing, and make him win if he Ganoncides his opponent and both are on their last stock.

This is incompetence on the side of the Devs imo.
The other thing that kinda sucks with Ganon is his lack of reliable combos outside of late dash attack. He hits hard but in this game a ton of characters still deal way more damage when they get a hit in. Make his down-throw combo better ffs. Make him be able to use fastfall uairs like Falcon. Finally buff the down-b, he needs a proper burst option.

You could do all this and Ganon would still suck so Wtf Devs? He's a fan favourite treat him like one. At least a little bit.

Just switch his up special, side special, and up tilt with Steve's. That will fix recovery, approach, disadvantage and combo game issues without changing base stats. It would boost the dorf more than a non aether drive move would do for chrom, or a move that isn't egg roll/photon edge for Yoshi/Mythra.

In all seriousness what gandorf needs to be good is a relatively safe combo starter, a move to use in disadvantage, and a long distance recovery to compensate for his bad movement stats. Right now his only fast neutral options are jab and Nair, both special suck for recovery and most moves do not allow for follow ups.