Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[StrangeKitten]

I'd disagree that it proves anything, because Incineroar never should have been lumped in with the "bad" characters to begin with. He's not some secret top tier, but he's far from the likes of Ganon and company.

I'd like to second this! As a day 1 main, I've been arguing that is mid tier for years. Though I now think he's high tier, I feel like he got written off for so long for being slow, while failing to value the strengths of the character.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Light has had to DQ from Summit 6 due to getting COVID

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Atm we don't know who the 16th spot will be, but it is presumed to be one of the people that nearly made it into Summit and are a VIP (Skyjay, Lui$ and Desmona)

 

[Aligo]

Light has had to DQ from Summit 6 due to getting COVID

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Atm we don't know who the 16th spot will be, but it is presumed to be one of the people that nearly made it into Summit and are a VIP (Skyjay, Lui$ and Desmona)

That is a big shame. It really does strike at the worst of times, doesn't it.

 

[Sucumbio]

Sonix may be the replacement yes? Or he already in it...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sonix may be the replacement yes? Or he already in it...

Sonix is not at the event. As I said, the replacements are presumed to be between Skyjay, Lui$ and Desmona because they are already at the event and are less expensive.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Update for the Light replacement:

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So either Lui$ or Skyjay will make the final cut.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I think it's absolutely hilarious that we're getting vs to decide this Summit spot after the Twitter discussion about which character is better (Palu obviously).

Edit: Groups and seeding revealed
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/120255k

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here are the results for today's pool.

Pool A
MkLeo 3-0 Hungrybox
Glutonny 2-3 ApolloKage
MkLeo 0-3 ApolloKage
Glutonny 3-1 Hungrybox


Pool B
Sparg0 3-1 NaetorU
Riddles 1-3 MuteAce
Sparg0 2-3 MuteAce
Riddles 3-1 NaetorU


Pool C
acola 3-1 VoiD
Skyjay 0-3 Kurama
acola 3-1 Kurama
Skyjay 3-1 VoiD


Pool D
Tweek 3-0 Aaron
ProtoBanham 3-0 Big D
Tweek 3-1 Big D
ProtoBanham 3-1 Aaron


ApolloKage and MuteAce in particular played phenomenally.


Edit: 3/25
Day 2 Pools

Pool A
MkLeo 2-3 Glutonny
ApolloKage 3-2 Hungrybox

Pool B
Sparg0 1-3 Riddles
MuteAce 3-1 NaetorU

Pool C
acola 3-0 Skyjay
Kurama 3-2 VoiD

Pool D
Tweek 1-3 ProtoBanham
Aaron 1-3 Big D


Group Standings
Pool A
1st: ApolloKage
2nd: Glutonny
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Hungrybox

Pool B
1st: MuteAce
2nd: Riddles
3rd: Sparg0
4th: NaetorU

Pool C
1st: acola
2nd: Kurama
3rd: Skyjay
4th: VoiD

Pool D
1st: ProtoBanham
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Big D
4th: Aaron



Gauntlet Stage
Pool A
Skyjay 3-0 NaetorU
Tweek 3-2 Skyjay
1st: ApolloKage
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Skyjay
4th: NaetorU


Pool B
Sparg0 3-0 Hungrybox
Kurama 3-2 Sparg0
1st: MuteAce
2nd: Kurama
3rd: Sparg0
4th: Hungrybox


Pool C
MkLeo 3-0 Aaron
Riddles 3-0 MkLeo
1st: acola
2nd: Riddles
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Aaron


Pool D
Big D 3-0 VoiD
Glutonny 2-3 Big D
1st: ProtoBanham
2nd: Big D
3rd: Glutonny
4th: VoiD

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Before Smash Summit Started Would you of believed me if I said that MKLeo and Sparg0 would end up starting the final bracket o in Losers . Becuase that is what is happening now . This whole thing has been nutty

 

[NairWizard]

I'd believe that. Leo just hasn't been that good the last half a year, with Ludwig and Genesis being outliers that you might expect from any top 10 player.

 

[Rizen]

Before Smash Summit Started Would you of believed me if I said that MKLeo and Sparg0 would end up starting the final bracket o in Losers . Becuase that is what is happening now . This whole thing has been nutty

The gap between MKLeo and other players has definitely shrunk. I don't think Leo's worse or that it's because he's not focusing on Joker, he has played Joker and lost. I think other players are leveling up. It's not a sure bet to say Leo will probably win anymore.

 

[Cheryl~]

The last two days have shown the highs and lows of Ice Climbers pretty well. Yesterday, Big D had to fight exclusively awful matchups that make Icies look like a bottom tier character, but today outside of Aaron's pocket Cloud (lol) he was gifted with a fantastic gauntlet bracket that showed how polarizing the character can be when given a winning matchup to play against. And now he's in winners side for tomorrow despite having such a rough Day 1. Such an interesting character lmao

 

[The_Bookworm]

Final bracket for tomorrow

Winner's
ApolloKage vs Tweek
ProtoBanham vs Riddles
MuteAce vs Kurama
acola vs Big D

Loser's
MkLeo vs NaetorU
Glutonny vs Aaron
Skyjay vs Hungrybox
Sparg0 vs VoiD


MkLeo and Sparg0 in loser's already is pretty crazy.
Was also going to say Glutonny as well, but this isn't his first rodeo in Summit loser's bracket, so this is a familiar mountain for him to climb.

Something to say is that Hungrybox is faring much better in this event than I thought. Granted he didn't win any sets yet, but he has brought each of the ones surprisingly close, especially against ApolloKage in a matchup that is very Snake favored. The exception was against Sparg0 were he got waxed, but Cloud vs Puff is a legendary matchup for how godawful it is for Puff since 2015.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Great to see so much more kicking around.

No offense to NaetorU but you can tell he's not in the same league as everyone else.
His playstyle reminds me of a lot of mid-level players who go for flashy, high-risk high-reward plays until they get countered and die.
As , you can't afford & honestly don't need to make those plays. He'd benefit a ton more from a more patient game plan.

 

[Sucumbio]

That raindrop tho... Awesome match That was so intense!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wow. Void outcluchted Sparg0 to win that game 5 in thier set. Sparg0 has been eliminated already.

Similar to what is happy with MKLeo and his Byleth/Joker that a few players have managed to develop some counter play for Sparg0's Cloud and actually managed to exploit the characters pretty liner recovery options.

In both thier sets vs Sparg0 Kurama and Void managed to get quite a few early stocks buy successful safeguarding Sparg0 which is actually easier said done one considering Sparg0 actullay having very strong offstage play making Clouds occasionally limited options for recovering work well .

Even when Sparg0 managed to keep Void from gimping him offstage he many times forced Sparg0 to burn limit Soley for recovering

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Godlike mindset.

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[NairWizard]

I have a lot of faith in Lucina. I actually think she's cleanly better than Cloud (like an entire tier better).

 

[Arthur97]

I have a lot of faith in Lucina. I actually think she's cleanly better than Cloud (like an entire tier better).

That, uh, that is a bold statement right there.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

MKLeo and Sparg0 elimaitned before Top 8. Big D Beating Acola in what is an absolutely terrible MU for IC. Acola and Riddles now in Losers.

Smash Summit is going out on a goddamn wild one

 

[The_Bookworm]

That MkLeo vs acola set was a complete and absolute reversal from how it went in the Ludwig Invitational.

acola wasn't doing anything new tech-wise; he simply did his homework and cleaned up his play a lot from the last time to emerge victorious. Felt like MkLeo wasn't playing at his best either, but acola in the end was so many steps ahead of him.

 

[Rizen]

It would be funny if or won Summit 6.

 

[NairWizard]

That, uh, that is a bold statement right there.

When you boil it down, it's easier to digest.

Lucina has an absolutely insane advantage state that rivals or even outdoes Cloud's, and that's the best thing about Cloud. She can juggle and ledgetrap almost as seamlessly as Cloud against a majority of matchups, but where Cloud's edgeguarding is pretty limited in most situations (f-air spike, b-air with Limit kills), Lucina has one of the best edgeguarding games in the entire game. You can think of it something like this:

Cloud advantage:
Juggling: A
Ledgetrapping: A+
Edgeguarding: B

Lucina advantage:
Juggling: A-
Ledgetrapping: A
Edgeguarding: A+

Lucina's also miles ahead in disadvantage -- she's floatier so she does sometimes get comboed really hard by characters you wouldn't expect like Pit (that MU is strangely brutal for no reason at all), but aerial f1 escape with Dolphin Slash and way better recovery outshines Cloud's narrow win in OOS and better disadvantage d-air and neutral airdodge. There is also something for which Cloud has no answer -- Lucina n-air is absolutely incredible for minor disadvantage scenarios where she has any room to drift at all because of the sheer number of mixups.

Really that just leaves neutral, and their neutrals are so different that it's hard to compare -- good in different matchups. In neutral, Cloud is way better against Wario while Lucina suffocates Palutena, for example.

It's easy to conflate sparg0's strengths with Cloud's, but Lucina the character is incredibly strong -- probably stronger than Cloud.

 

[superjm]

Skyjay makes Incineroar look like Kazuya if Kazuya had actual good frame data.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Ultimate Summit 6 Top 8

Winner's
Tweek vs ProtoBanham
Kurama vs Big D

Loser's
acola vs Glutonny
Skyjay vs ApolloKage


What in the world is this top 8? MkLeo, Sparg0, MuteAce, Riddles... all eliminated before top 8.
I am convinced that being consistent in Ultimate is straight up impossible.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Incineroar's damage output and frame data are good, but it can't be overstated how valuable Darkest Lariat and his jumps are. Skyjay was just getting out of bad situations so many times because he has a very rewarding reversal and a genuinely fast full hop and fallspeed.

Incin might have the slowest walk/run speed but Skyjay makes this character look deceptively mobile. It reminds me of how Bonchan made Sagat look like a fast character in SF4.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I am convinced that being consistent in Ultimate is straight up impossible.

You win some, you lose some.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Australia banned Steve:

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I think it might be a bit premature (so far PMLG has seen virtually no use outside of training mode) but at least they got a solid % voting for a ban.

 

[Sucumbio]

Speaking of Steve acola slipped out of TWO back to back dairs from Kurama but was it PMLG? Inquiring minds wanna know (also a weird clip where Mario was stuck mid block lol)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Australia banned Steve:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I think it might be a bit premature (so far PMLG has seen virtually no use outside of training mode) but at least they got a solid % voting for a ban.

Strange that Australia would feel so strongly about this. To my knowledge, there isn't really any notable high level Steve players in Australia. I feel this is more the Australian playerbase simply wanting to remove an annoying tournament character out of the picture than anything.

 

[Idon]

yeah nah ban this character.

 

[Cheryl~]

Strange that Australia would feel so strongly about this. To my knowledge, there isn't really any notable high level Steve players in Australia. I feel this is more the Australian playerbase simply wanting to remove an annoying tournament character out of the picture than anything.

Actually, Ghost, one of their strongest players (might be the strongest nationally not counting Jdizzle's performances internationally) has been maining Steve for the past year and has won at least a couple of their majors. Not sure if him alone caused the precedent (there has to be others, Steve is so common) but there are definitely high level Steves in AUS.

Smasher:Ghost - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

 

[NairWizard]

acola definitely the best player I've ever seen play the game, Steve or not. No one adapts like acola, literally no one.

 

[Kokiden]

Well that was an extremely disappointing way to end the last summit ever.

They actually released Steve like that and thought he was well balanced... no more balance patches either.

I can honestly say watching Steve has killed a lot of enjoyment in this game for me.

 

[The_Bookworm]

THAT was a top player grand finals. Both players adapted on the spot repeatedly as the set progressed, changing the tempo of each game considerably.

Tweek was extra fierce in the chasing, the frame traps, and the punish game. Felt like he could've countered a bit more, but otherwise he played amazing.

acola on the other hand played the matchup perfectly. He found as much opportunity to close in as possible, capitalize on each moment of weakness, and set up enough walls to be a nuisance to Tweek. However, the super dealbreaker of the set was his parries. SO MANY PARRIES THROUGHOUT THE SET. All of them were super essential as well. I have never seen a player so precise with parries in all the years of this game being active. His parries were also super good throughout the tournament as well.

After losing to Big D, acola had to win 7 consecutive sets to win the whole thing, having to go through MkLeo, Glutonny, ProtoBanham, Kurama, runback on Big D, then two sets of Tweek. A gauntlet that seems unreal to surpass but he did it.

In the end interview, he made a statement that he is #1 and Japan is the #1 region. Doing what he did this tournament into saying that. THAT is a power move.

 

[Kokiden]

I mean look, Acola aside, if anyone here watched that and actually thinks Steve is perfectly balanced, I don't know what to tell you.

You can say the player is good, but let's not forget the character is also important. To be able to hit that hard, to have that frame data, be that heavy, and do all of these things, is just not right.

 

[superjm]

I mean look, Acola aside, if anyone here watched that and actually thinks Steve is perfectly balanced, I don't know what to tell you.

You can say the player is good, but let's not forget the character is also important. To be able to hit that hard, to have that frame data, be that heavy, and do all of these things, is just not right.

Some characters are better than others, FGC have worked under that assumption from the very beginning. We all just gotta deal with it.

The Steve ban looks likely to run out of steam in time, with big majors likely content to just implement PMLG bans and especially with Japan looking to be staunchly against even considering a ban for any of their events.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think a lot of characters have design flaws and/or are overpowered, but it's part of the game. In order to ban a fighting game character, you need data to support the ban. Steve has design flaws, and he's somewhat overpowered (although likely less so than Smash 4 Bayonetta). Is he strong enough to warrant a ban? The current data doesn't seem to support that. Will PMLG make him banworthy? So far we've only really seen training mode clips and it's been a month. Banning him now seems premature (and maybe it would be possible to just ban PMLG if needed).

Steve does lose some matchups. You could pick up a secondary that beats Steve (or goes even with him), or even pick up Steve yourself if you think he's overpowered.

 

[Kokiden]

Some characters are better than others, FGC have worked under that assumption from the very beginning. We all just gotta deal with it.

The Steve ban looks likely to run out of steam in time, with big majors likely content to just implement PMLG bans and especially with Japan looking to be staunchly against even considering a ban for any of their events.

Japan will never ban him. That's more of western country kind of thing.

I think a lot of characters have design flaws and/or are overpowered, but it's part of the game. In order to ban a fighting game character, you need data to support the ban. Steve has design flaws, and he's somewhat overpowered (although likely less so than Smash 4 Bayonetta). Is he strong enough to warrant a ban? The current data doesn't seem to support that. Will PMLG make him banworthy? So far we've only really seen training mode clips and it's been a month. Banning him now seems premature (and maybe it would be possible to just ban PMLG if needed).

Steve does lose some matchups. You could pick up a secondary that beats Steve (or goes even with him), or even pick up Steve yourself if you think he's overpowered.

All of that does not mean his balancing is acceptable as it is.

 

[NairWizard]

This win is only about acola and acola's skill. It has nothing to do with Steve.

Please try to disassociate results from the characters. acola won today because he was the best player at the venue, and he's been winning the most in general because he's the best player in the world, and that's really the only conclusion you can come to.

Tweek only had to take one game, one stock, of smash to win this entire tournament. A character difference didn't cause that one stock loss. acola caused that one-stock loss.