Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[StrangeKitten]

Incineroar is high tier

 

[L9999]

Finally Pikachu does something worth praising, but it's still a long road to entertain the idea the Pikachu fanboys have that he is some broken top 5 character. Nobody is calling Bayonetta top 5 and she got top 8, or Incineroar.

One thing I hope ShinyMark's Collision run does is to finally kill the myth Pikachu's meta is carried by ESAM, because he really isn't up for the task of representing the rat's viability; fancy Up B angles do not make up for how unsafely ESAM plays, which is the reason he chokes so much, gets upset by unranked players, and loses matchups that in his own words are free.

Speaking of chokers I say it is time the casual elitists and the Smash Youtubers stop parroting the sentiment that Aegis is some broken game buster. The character has a serious problem against FGC characters, in the last 3 months every Aegis player has gotten 3-0d by a Ryu/Ken/Kazuya player. If Kazuya rises more in popularity, Aegis is hosed. Besides FGC they got a lot of chaotic matchups in which they can just die at 0 or get juggled for 65% because their disadvantage state and recovery is so damn bad. They are like R.O.B in a way, but rather than being a big fat sack of hurtbox they have an awful recovery.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I'm going to make the argument that Leo just simply isn't as good with Aegis as Shuton and Sparg0 for some reason. Sparg0's success rate with Aegis is very high and it typically rarely ever fails now that he's used it as a secondary and Shuton is one of the most consistent players in the world and typically does well at majors and supermajors. Cosmos is inconsistent as all hell but I think that is specifically a Cosmos problem and not an Aegis problem, and Leo seems to struggle with the character despite the fact that they should fit him (maybe it's the poor recovery? Sparg0 is used to that due to playing Cloud)

 

[Rizen]

Hot take: I think is just as good as for reasons you can see in this match between Riddles and Sonix.

Kazuya has better payoff. He has the touch of death. But Terry's payoff is also really good and he has a much better neutral and disadvantage state. He has faster attacks and better mobility. Terry's burst mobility is a huge asset to him, especially in MUs like Sonic or Young Link. Terry also gets and keeps GO anytime he's over 100%. With it he can combo jab into buster wolf for about 50% or kills around 100%. Terry's really good. people seemed to forget about him when Kazuya came out but I think he's starting to make a resurgence.

 

[NairWizard]

Terry is better than Kazuya; the skill ceiling for Terry is way higher and Terry has more applicable neutral and disadvantage options across a variety of matchups.

Kazuya is overrated: his disadvantage is incredibly exploitable. If you aren't 0 to deathing Kazuya pretty consistently, your advantage state sucks.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm going to make the argument that Leo just simply isn't as good with Aegis as Shuton and Sparg0 for some reason. Sparg0's success rate with Aegis is very high and it typically rarely ever fails now that he's used it as a secondary and Shuton is one of the most consistent players in the world and typically does well at majors and supermajors. Cosmos is inconsistent as all hell but I think that is specifically a Cosmos problem and not an Aegis problem, and Leo seems to struggle with the character despite the fact that they should fit him (maybe it's the poor recovery? Sparg0 is used to that due to playing Cloud)

I honestly don't think Aegis really "fits" Leo that much.

As much as we understand Leo to be a beast in neutral I think half of his success can easily be owed to the fact that the characters he plays have very explosive advantage states under the hood that he's always been very good at digging deep into. Byleth is a good example of a character who excels in pinch situations because of his myriad of coverage options and attacks that can KO with proper conditioning, and Joker is if nothing else a character designed for pinch comebacks with his confirms and combo flexibility (not to mention Arsène), but Aegis feel like a character that's almost a bit too "automatic transmission" for someone like Leo. Mythra relies on Pyra a lot for having to cash out big time in advantage situations, and the problem with that is that Pyra doesn't have the same flexibility to play in neutral. Conversely, Mythra's combo strings and engagements are usually either too truncated, weak, or too committal to lead into any significant on-stage power play with a Pyra swap.

It's been pretty overt in the past that the character Leo probably actually wants to play of the two most of the time is Pyra; she's the only one of the two who has the capacity to score the kind of conversions Leo is usually always on the prowl for, but the reality is that she's really ill-equipped to do any of it without Mythra, and I think this aspect has always been somewhat limiting for Leo. The way I see a lot of Aegis players perform with their character is sticking with Mythra all the time until the opponent is forced off-stage for prolonged periods or if they're above mid-percents in disadvantage situations, and for now that's probably more or less how you play for success with them. Meanwhile, Leo feels like the type of player who would rather make Pyra work in low-percentage/neutral situations because the potential for reward and coverage is much greater.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Nobody is calling Bayonetta top 5[...]

"Bayonetta was the lowest ranked character to have any panelists put them in the top 5, with two panelists doing so."

From the official tier list. Silly take, in my opinion, but apparently at least two top players think Bayonetta is top 5.

I'm going to make the argument that Leo just simply isn't as good with Aegis as Shuton and Sparg0 for some reason.

I think this is true, although I think MkLeo has the potential to do really well with Aegis if he spent more time on them. His Aegis was doing better versus ShinyMark's Pikachu than his Joker, so at the very least it seems like he'd benefit from keeping Aegis around for some matchups. He went 1-1 with Aegis and 0-2 with Joker versus ShinyMark's Pikachu.

I think if Sparg0 played more Aegis he'd have a good chance of being the #1 player in the world. Don't get me wrong, his Cloud is amazing, but I still think his Aegis is his best character.

Kazuya is a bit trickier. It's partly the character (top level Kazuya in general is difficult to deal with unless you happen to play a strong MU against him), and partly Riddles being really good (he won the tournament, after all). Even so the games vs Riddles were fairly close (game 1 MkLeo was at 2 stocks 142.2%, Riddles 1 stock 98.2%, but Riddles clutched it), game 2 both were at 1 stock each, MkLeo 14%, Riddles 0%, and then Riddles got one combo and killed Mythra... Kazuya things. Game 3 ended up being last stock as well, with Riddles at 40.1% and MkLeo at 157.2%, but MkLeo had a lead for a good amount of the game (but Riddles did some Kazuya things). So I definitely think that set was very winnable with MkLeo's Aegis. Had Riddles dropped one combo per game the set could've gone very differently.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Terry is better than Kazuya; the skill ceiling for Terry is way higher and Terry has more applicable neutral and disadvantage options across a variety of matchups.

Kazuya is overrated: his disadvantage is incredibly exploitable. If you aren't 0 to deathing Kazuya pretty consistently, your advantage state sucks.

How is the skill ceiling for Terry higher? Please elaborate.

 

[Aligo]

Finally Pikachu does something worth praising, but it's still a long road to entertain the idea the Pikachu fanboys have that he is some broken top 5 character. Nobody is calling Bayonetta top 5 and she got top 8, or Incineroar.

One thing I hope ShinyMark's Collision run does is to finally kill the myth Pikachu's meta is carried by ESAM, because he really isn't up for the task of representing the rat's viability; fancy Up B angles do not make up for how unsafely ESAM plays, which is the reason he chokes so much, gets upset by unranked players, and loses matchups that in his own words are free.

Speaking of chokers I say it is time the casual elitists and the Smash Youtubers stop parroting the sentiment that Aegis is some broken game buster. The character has a serious problem against FGC characters, in the last 3 months every Aegis player has gotten 3-0d by a Ryu/Ken/Kazuya player. If Kazuya rises more in popularity, Aegis is hosed. Besides FGC they got a lot of chaotic matchups in which they can just die at 0 or get juggled for 65% because their disadvantage state and recovery is so damn bad. They are like R.O.B in a way, but rather than being a big fat sack of hurtbox they have an awful recovery.

I think it is more than Leo specifically struggles with aegis, mostly due to staying as pyra too much and inappropriate use of mythra, who can't do traditional spacing and instead acts more like a rushdown character in practice. It is the equivalent of Leo playing fox like marth to try and win matchups. It stands to his general skill that he managed to get so far using the wrong strategy in the first place. Considering fgcs are incredibly unstable, it is no surprise they have beaten supposed bad matchups. Aegis, just like every other character, is not immune to this, the same has happened to both Samus and Min Min in the past.

I would agree that aegis is not busted, they lack the cheesy mechanics and have pretty awful specials compared to other top tiers, as well as surprisingly weak normals, but they have amazing kit synergy and a swap system that isn't immensely detrimental that helps make up for.

 

[NairWizard]

How is the skill ceiling for Terry higher? Please elaborate.

As good as you can get in grounded footsies, the path forward for all character involves the air. The meta shift toward aerial drift-ins and undershooting has been very apparent over the last year, transforming the game as we know it, and Terry does this way better than Kazuya.

Terry has incredible jump-in opportunities opened by crackshoot discouraging fadeaway aerials. Kazuya's up-air is incredible, but f7 jumpsquat will always limit what he can do here. His neutral comes down to grounded movement, and as long as that's the case, he is vulnerable to EWGF whiff punishing and shady hurtbox shifting, whereas Terry can capitalize on your whiff punishing spacing or said hurtbox shifting.

Terrys can get better at playing around every character's hitboxes and winning positional advantage from stage-center neutral situations, while Kazuyas will mostly get better at landing his most punishing options. Given that Terrys reward is already high, I think Terry has the higher ceiling when both of these qualities are pushed as far as they can go.

Kazuya is more complex. But Terry can be better.

 

[Sucumbio]

How is the skill ceiling for Terry higher? Please elaborate.

I think he meant Kazuya.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Note: Results are far from everything, but they're still interesting to talk about.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ROB is not that far behind from Steve. Snake is doing really well. Aegis #4. Min Min #12 is fairly notable as well, it's a character I think people tend to underrate a bit.

Corrin #37 is nice to see, I presume it's mostly Neo/SHADIC/Ly? The character tends to be a bit underrated by most people, I could see Corrin being around top 40 or so. Lucina #48 surprises me a bit, I thought Mr. E was doing decently well? Pichu #68, they really did Pichu dirty when they nerfed him... Link #65, Toon Link #35, Young Link #25, that's how I'd rate the Links too (Young Link > Toon Link > Link). Many people seem to think highly of Breath of the Wild Link but I'm not sold, I think Toon Link is better (largely from watching Japanese Toon Link mains).

Kazuya #15, Terry #40. Seems Kazuya is far more popular than Terry, at least. I think Kazuya is quite a bit better as well. Perhaps you could make a comparison with Sephiroth and Pit: Maybe Pit is more well-rounded than Sephiroth, but Sephiroth is still the better character. Terry might have fewer really bad MUs than Kazuya, but Kazuya's strengths still make him the better character overall, although having a secondary to deal with tricky matchups might not be a bad idea (I can't think of a single notable solo-main for Kazuya).

 

[Emblem Lord]

As good as you can get in grounded footsies, the path forward for all character involves the air. The meta shift toward aerial drift-ins and undershooting has been very apparent over the last year, transforming the game as we know it, and Terry does this way better than Kazuya.

Terry has incredible jump-in opportunities opened by crackshoot discouraging fadeaway aerials. Kazuya's up-air is incredible, but f7 jumpsquat will always limit what he can do here. His neutral comes down to grounded movement, and as long as that's the case, he is vulnerable to EWGF whiff punishing and shady hurtbox shifting, whereas Terry can capitalize on your whiff punishing spacing or said hurtbox shifting.

Terrys can get better at playing around every character's hitboxes and winning positional advantage from stage-center neutral situations, while Kazuyas will mostly get better at landing his most punishing options. Given that Terrys reward is already high, I think Terry has the higher ceiling when both of these qualities are pushed as far as they can go.

Kazuya is more complex. But Terry can be better.

If Kazuya is more complex his skill ceiling is higher.

You basically said Terry is better at being a "normal" smash character, which we all know.

What Terry wants to do has not actually changed. It's just that Riddles has a habit of using Terry like a ghetto Ken, so when you see him establishing neutral with Power Wave and bursting down with Crack Shoot, folks think Terry is evolving and has a higher ceiling.

Terry CAN control a ton of space on pure reaction even in the air thanks to CS. I would argue he is one of the best at the vortex/reset advantage situation game. He is a land trap god too.

But to say he has a higher ceiling is not true. He is monstrous at creating that landing coverage scenario and converting stocks.

You mentioned EWGF and how it can be whiff punished. My sibling in Smash, the Kazman has more grounded options than any other character and a movement option no one else does. This means Kaz is a demon (hehe) at whiff punishing and footsie's himself. So while Terry is a beast at the normal smash concepts and scenarios, Kaz is playing a completely different metagame. He exist in a realm other characters can only begin to approach in terms of ground based footsies.

Kaz has not even begun to develop that much beyond close range punishes, tech punishes, and kill sequences. We aren't even seeing wavedash cancels into shield with Kaz at high level. We aren't seeing DJC uairs that much to threaten air space while holding your zone. Yes, the 7 frame jump squat hurts, but it's still a great tool.

I have no issue if anyone thinks Terry is also top tier or even thinking he is a better character. Cool. Sure.

But Terry has a higher ceiling than Kazuya? I would have to disagree.

 

[NairWizard]

If Kazuya is more complex his skill ceiling is higher.

I have no issue if anyone thinks Terry is also top tier or even thinking he is a better character. Cool. Sure.

But Terry has a higher ceiling than Kazuya? I would have to disagree.

Complexity and skill ceiling are two different things.

Skill ceiling is a measure of how good you are at peak skill. If Terry is a better character when both are optimized, then he has a higher skill ceiling.

Kazuya is more complex, but mastery of that complexity leads to smaller gains than mastery of Terry's simpler moveset.

My sibling in Smash, the Kazman has more grounded options than any other character and a movement option no one else does. This means Kaz is a demon (hehe) at whiff punishing and footsie's himself. So while Terry is a beast at the normal smash concepts and scenarios, Kaz is playing a completely different metagame. He exist in a realm other characters can only begin to approach in terms of ground based footsies.

sure, he is, there's no denying that.

The fact is that all of your grounded options can only offer so much mix if they are constrained by your inability to jump quickly. It's the same problem we see Joker struggling with from time to time because of his lack of rising aerial, but even greater in magnitude and breadth. It's true that Kazuya is a good character and can work around his weaknesses, just like Joker.

In the end, though, Terry and Kazuya could not be more different and it doesn't even make sense to compare them. Suffice it to say that Terry is underrated and Kazuya overrated.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Complexity and skill ceiling are two different things.

Skill ceiling is a measure of how good you are at peak skill. If Terry is a better character when both are optimized, then he has a higher skill ceiling.

Kazuya is more complex, but mastery of that complexity leads to smaller gains than mastery of Terry's simpler moveset.



sure, he is, there's no denying that.

The fact is that all of your grounded options can only offer so much mix if they are constrained by your inability to jump quickly. It's the same problem we see Joker struggling with from time to time because of his lack of rising aerial, but even greater in magnitude and breadth. It's true that Kazuya is a good character and can work around his weaknesses, just like Joker.

In the end, though, Terry and Kazuya could not be more different and it doesn't even make sense to compare them. Suffice it to say that Terry is underrated and Kazuya overrated.

Kaz already takes a stock when he does what he is supposed too. There is no greater gain. Everything else funnels into what he can do to make that more consistent and hopefully we will see that. Kaz has solid burst options to deter fade outs and retreating aerials. I think both characters have untapped potential. But where Terry excels over Kazuya has little to do with his ceiling. It's just because of what we knew early. He is a burst god.

I agree that skill ceiling directly correlates to the returns you get on optimization but also is connected to a characters depth. How well are you being rewarded for discovering different ways to push this character? Can they be pushed beyond most of the cast? Is it worth it? You could argue it may not be worth it since Kazuya is doing well as a death combo bot. I think players will adapt and then his true evolution will start.

 

[Rizen]

that's how I'd rate the Links too (Young Link > Toon Link > Link). Many people seem to think highly of Breath of the Wild Link but I'm not sold, I think Toon Link is better (largely from watching Japanese Toon Link mains).

As someone who plays Link and YL I agree with this. is kind of a weird jack of all trades, master of none, when it's better to be amazing at one or two things and force your game on the opponent.

Link has a good projectile game but he can't spam it or combo from it like the smaller Links. Therefor his projectile game loses to other projectile games. Toon Link and Young Link can be bad MUs for Link because he gets outspammed and has a hell of a time getting in. Link really struggles anytime he can't force approaches, which he is good at.

Similarly Link has a big sword but it's slow and has worse curves than other sword specialists. All link's aerials either stab directly out or curve horizontally and leave him with diagonal blind spots. When fighting other sword specialists like Lucina, Link gets out-sped and out-angled. His projectiles aren't strong enough to really wall anyone out, although I will say they are amazing offstage.

Also Link has the worst mobility of the Links, which can really kill him vs big disjoints in disadvantage. Link's Nair and Dair do a good job covering his body but some characters who outrange those can keep him in the air forever. Bomb recoveries really help his recovering and keep him from being crap in that department.

One the positive side, against opponents with average options he can be very difficult to get in on. Fair is a great zoning tool like a slower, kill version of Marcina's Nair. Link can be difficult for several characters including Peach. He has low lag landing options like Bair1 comboing into Utilt. He also has above average weight and kill power.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

As someone who plays Link and YL I agree with this. is kind of a weird jack of all trades, master of none, when it's better to be amazing at one or two things and force your game on the opponent.

Link has a good projectile game but he can't spam it or combo from it like the smaller Links. Therefor his projectile game loses to other projectile games. Toon Link and Young Link can be bad MUs for Link because he gets outspammed and has a hell of a time getting in. Link really struggles anytime he can't force approaches, which he is good at.

Similarly Link has a big sword but it's slow and has worse curves than other sword specialists. All link's aerials either stab directly out or curve horizontally and leave him with diagonal blind spots. When fighting other sword specialists like Lucina, Link gets out-sped and out-angled. His projectiles aren't strong enough to really wall anyone out, although I will say they are amazing offstage.

Also Link has the worst mobility of the Links, which can really kill him vs big disjoints in disadvantage. Link's Nair and Dair do a good job covering his body but some characters who outrange those can keep him in the air forever. Bomb recoveries really help his recovering and keep him from being crap in that department.

One the positive side, against opponents with average options he can be very difficult to get in on. Fair is a great zoning tool like a slower, kill version of Marcina's Nair. Link can be difficult for several characters including Peach. He has low lag landing options like Bair1 comboing into Utilt. He also has above average weight and kill power.

You also have to respect his reversal ability offstage.

 

[Courageous Baka]

If one is only more likely to lack understanding of a character he or she may not play, therefore resulting in a huge chance of being wrong about a ton of stuff, what is the point of discussing or making tier lists and match-up charts? Is it just for fun? What if you lack experience watching or playing against certain characters as well? And how much do those really help? Is it even possible to be accurate about everything?

If I came off as selfish, stupid, arrogant, conceited, egotistical, narcissistic, idiotic, dumb, childish, immature or anything else, please forgive me. If I did, please let me know.

 

[Courageous Baka]

I'm also sincerely sorry for any other flaw that I may have demonstrated there or exemplified.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If one is only more likely to lack understanding of a character he or she may not play, therefore resulting in a huge chance of being wrong about a ton of stuff, what is the point of discussing or making tier lists and match-up charts? Is it just for fun? What if you lack experience watching or playing against certain characters as well? And how much do those really help? Is it even possible to be accurate about everything?

Well there's a lot of different reasons, for a lot of different people.

I'm not huge on tier lists myself, but I am very interested in character an match up analysis. Learning about how different characters use their kits, and how those interact with opposing characters kits, is very interesting to me. So I really enjoy reading people's analyses of characters they are familiar with in this thread, and applying that information to theory craft how to better fight them with my characters. I do think it's helped me improve my play at least a bit, and even if it hasn't seeing how different character match ups can interact is still a very interesting part of the game to me.

Even if a lot of repetitive narratives irk me, I think that's part of what appeals to me about this being a discussion - no one may be an expert on every character on their own, but there's often someone who knows enough about a character enough to chime in when the topic turns to them. Discussions are a great way to hear alternative or more educated perspectives.

And hey, sometimes being wrong about something is just part of the learning process. People shouldn't go around recklessly spreading misinformation but at the same time, people shouldn't be afraid to form opinions on things just out of fear of being wrong. Just as long as you don't let your ego get to you.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Good advice:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Sucumbio]

Okay so... Steve tech banned worked apparently? Not knowing how to use Steve I want to ask the broader question is being a Steve main more difficult because using their broken techs which appears to be 1 definitely 2 maybe? and centered in "create block" now leads to the possibility the tech they execute is a missed input and results in the banned version? Or are these techs so different and or obvious? In other words I think Steve dropping in results would be a false positive?

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's hard to know for sure whether a tech ban will work or not since there are so many variables. Did people do it and no one reported? Did some people think someone did it but didn't report out of fear of being wrong? And so on.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the ability to police the tech might be easier for majors than locals/regionals (or maybe it's harder? At least with locals people would likely not cheat since they're playing with people they know, so there's some implicit trust involved there).

Though given the fact that no one has yet to claim the $100 bounty for successfully using the tech, getting a punish, and winning the game in tournament I think it's fair to say that it's going to take a while before people will be able to use the tech consistently. It seems that the tech is somewhat difficult to learn. People who want Steve banned might want to consider picking up Steve for a little while and grinding the tech to show the rest of the world what it's capable of.

For now, based on Collision and Tea Party, it would seem that a tech ban might work out well. Many Steve players have dropped the character anyways, Onin isn't exactly known to be the most tech-heavy Steve (and given that he's worried about Steve being banned I don't think he's going to push the tech), acola doesn't seem to think the tech is even that good, yonni and Jake have both quit, DDee, Tropped, and Desmona have dropped Steve (though maybe they'll pick him up again if Steve doesn't end up banned).

All in all, I'm not really sure what will happen. It seems to me that all three scenarios (tech ban, Steve ban, no ban) have some merit. A Steve ban would certainly be the popular choice, since a majority of the community (based on polls) and top players (based on Twitter and YouTube videos) think that Steve should be banned. Many TOs, however, seem to believe that we need more data from actual tournaments before we ban Steve.

A tech ban is likely going to mostly work for majors (unless people start falsely reporting uses out of spite, but I don't think it's likely to happen all too often, and you'd risk your reputation if you do it repeatedly, maybe you'd even get blacklisted if you do it multiple times).

For the time being, "no ban" would probably work well. It could, potentially, lead to a situation where Steve players grind the tech and at that point banning the tech could be awkward, but it would certainly be easier for TOs. It's hard to tell for sure how important this tech will be long term: NILs ended up being really powerful, but they're not easy to learn. Right now, most Steve mains probably won't learn the tech, since it's banned in many places and if they do learn it Steve might end up banned.

So... It's hard to say what will happen. For the time being it seems like majors and larger tournaments are unwilling to leave the tech unbanned. MAJOR UPSET is going even further: "If you plan on using Steve in bracket we will need to get in contact with you and keep a record of your upcoming matches so a TO can supervise."

I don't like this solution since I don't think it's really practical to require TO supervision for every game with a Steve, especially since Steve is the most popular character in the game. They did call it a temporary solution, but what would the long-term solution be? A Steve ban?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[StrangeKitten]

It's kind of a catch-22 at the moment. Most, if not all, of the Steve players aren't practicing the tech because they don't want their character banned, or are dropping Steve in favor of getting better with another character to soften the blow if Steve bans become more widespread. It's definitely too soon to say the tech ban works well, because do we even know if the tech got used at all and a player suffered a penalty for it? I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't come up once. And not just because of the reasons I stated for why Steve players are unlikely to have used it, but also because people who weren't playing Steve likely feel discouraged from trying to call it out due to how much of a chore it is to try and prove the tech was used. If they even noticed or suspected the tech at all, when Ultimate's hitbox jank and Steve's kinda awkward hurtbox already cause him to fall out of moves as is.

So, my stance remains the same. The tech is too... non-obvious (for lack of a better word) for a ban on simply the tech to be feasible at most, if not all, events. So I'm still in favor of a Steve ban, much as I wish I wasn't. I wish the tech was far more noticeable so a ban would be a lot more doable; or even better, just not in the game at all. But that's not the case, and won't be, unless Nintendo actually does something. Their silence on it thus far is not encouraging on that front. But I am also curious to see if this tech, and maybe other not-broken stuff like NILs, will push Steve to absurd heights. So my eyes will of course be on those sorts of things, for the events that don't ban the tech/Steve.

 

[Aligo]

This maybe sounds a bit crazy, but if people went out looking for game breaking bugs in smash, would it force Nintendo to patch the game?

Also, incin sweep. Tony the Tiger has turned his attention from vgc to smash. I find it interesting that him and other characters who are slow but have great moves are doing pretty good in competitive at the moment.

 

[Idon]

This maybe sounds a bit crazy, but if people went out looking for game breaking bugs in smash, would it force Nintendo to patch the game?

Also, incin sweep. Tony the Tiger has turned his attention from vgc to smash. I find it interesting that him and other characters who are slow but have great moves are doing pretty good in competitive at the moment.

Short of forcibly crashing the game and corrupting your save file, I very much doubt anyone will be able to do anything that forces Nintendo's hand.

And even if they DO do that, Nintendo might just put out a statement that goes "yeah don't play online with strangers" and leave it at that.

 

[blackghost]

dnag it lima. just play the game and win.

also the first thing i read after coming back is someone arguing terry is more complex than kauya??? never change yall. thats some peak comedy.
kauya movment option alone are more complex than terry's entire kit.

i need these players listing bayonetta as a top 5 character to report ot the front of the class and present becuase as of now i know theyd only list her that high for alternative motives. forget everything in 4 nothing in ultimate bayo kitsds carries the weight or threat of a top 20 character let alone a top 5.

learn your MUs people. incin is an awful mu for bayo in gneral. he out dmaages and out frames her. incin just got top placement at a major from players failing their knowledge checks.

 

[NairWizard]

also the first thing i read after coming back is someone arguing terry is more complex than kauya??? never change yall. thats some peak comedy.

No one said this

 

[blackghost]

No one said this

you said it.
wait so your argument was what then? terry has a higher skill ceiling yet is EASIER than kazuya? Because that makes no sense from a logic sense. complexity and skill ceiling are different terms for the same thing. a character cannot have more to learn and be easier.
emlem lord alread covered this im not retreding ground unless you want to clarify what you meant. i just found the statement funny.

the argument i HAVE heard is not all characters have the same skill floor to be viable from a competitive standpoint. it takes a lot more to be solid on ice climbers in bracket than say palutena.

Emblem Lord sf6 who you gonna main?

 

[NotLiquid]

Skill ceiling and complexity in separation is a highlighting of skill vs ability dichotomies. Those two words may carry the same implication but they're fundamentally not the same and it's a bit of a dictionary betrayal to suggest that. Ability as a measure of what you can do always refers to the innate potential/requirements of what one person has to execute, whereas skill is a measure of how much one can do something with exception. Theoretically you could conflate these two in this context if you want to propose the argument that one character certainly requires more stingent sequence of button presses to accomplish similar feats but that's looking at things from a micro perspective rather than everything as a whole. We could argue Shulk has a greater skill ceiling than any character on the roster with conditions like those and yet I think everyone is sick of having to hear about Mr. Potential. If the argument here is that Terry excels at doing a wider range of things and having a greater relative maximum output more than Kazuya, then saying Terry has a greater skill ceiling is definitely a valid way of expressing that fact, regardless of whether it's "harder" to do it with Kazuya. If anything, that means Kazuya has a higher skill floor, which is definitely one area where I don't think you'll find people arguing about.

While we're at it, it'd be cool if the takeaway from Incineroar's feats here isn't downplaying them as an issue of matchup unfamiliarity, especially in the light of Skyjay double eliminating a top 4 Ultimate player who used to have a consistently positive set count against him over the years. This character isn't an unknown, nor is Skyjay winning against players who never had exposure to him before. The character is good, always has been. Everything about it (except mobility) has been undervalued from day one; combo game, raw damage output, range, recovery, stock robbing potential, it all ranges from solid to great. He's as much of a "knowledge check" as Leo's Byleth has been, and while Magister and Mystery Sol have had flashes of success with them, it only took Skyjay for someone to finally show the light. Paraphrasing Pink Fresh here but Incineroar's down tilt alone is arguably just as busted as ROB's -- if not even more -- and we know how much ROB gains off of having the down tilt it does.

 

[NairWizard]

you said it.
wait so your argument was what then? terry has a higher skill ceiling yet is EASIER than kazuya? Because that makes no sense from a logic sense. complexity and skill ceiling are different terms for the same thing. a character cannot have more to learn and be easier.
emlem lord alread covered this im not retreding ground unless you want to clarify what you meant. i just found the statement funny.

complexity and skill ceiling are not different terms for the same thing.

Skill ceiling is how good you can be when you are at peak (results of mastery).
Complexity is how hard you are to learn (scope of mastery).

The fallacious assumption that "more complexity means better character" is exactly the reason that Shulk and Pikachu are overrated. Someone who has full mastery of Shulk's Monado Arts is not necessarily more skilled or more capable than someone who has full mastery of Lucina neutral. One is more complex for sure, but mastery of a complex thing is frequently less effective than mastery of a simple thing, as I believe would be the case here (even with maxed-out Shulk, I'd expect maxed-out Lucina to go further and win more, and winning is the leading indicator of skill in a fighting game).

(also shoutouts to NotLiquid for having great reading comprehension)

 

[Hippieslayer]

To me characters like Pacman, Steve or Snake are complex because they have so many different things they can do compared to most characters. So I guess I think that having a large bag of tricks is a form of complexity. Weaponizing the size of the bag seems pretty hard though, no one really does it, maybe it's not possible to do, everyone has their own set of favored things to do which they repeat, even if the size of the bag varies between players.

 

[NotLiquid]

We don't talk a lot about Squad Strike but another surprise story that went untold at Collision 2023 is that Spargo's winning run was heavily anchored by Piranha Plant, who even managed to take out Riddles' Kazuya several times. Obviously the format benefits Plant, but it's always cool to see it in action. Larry who's been cheerleading for the character has a fun video of his reactions to it and he provides some nice commentary since he's more familiar with the character than most, including the players tasked of going up against it.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The winners of all the tourneys that happened this weekend

There was a problem fetching the tweet

We don't talk a lot about Squad Strike but another surprise story that went untold at Collision 2023 is that Spargo's winning run was heavily anchored by Piranha Plant, who even managed to take out Riddles' Kazuya several times. Obviously the format benefits Plant, but it's always cool to see it in action. Larry who's been cheerleading for the character has a fun video of his reactions to it and he provides some nice commentary since he's more familiar with the character than most, including the players tasked of going up against it.

I feel like Sparg0's is having success for similar reasons to Zackray's . Low/Mid Tier character with low results means very little players know the MU and the player wielding them has some of the best fundies and game knowledge in the business. I think Plant is worse then Pit but it gives me a similar feeling. Low/Mid tiers can get good results in this game if you are a good enough player, the game is exceptionally well balanced in that regard.

 

[NairWizard]

sparg0's Plant is having success because sparg0 the player is way faster than any other player (yes including Light). There has been a very noticeable speed gap between sparg0 and literally every other player for the last year, even if sparg0 isn't winning everything or if Leo has eked out better wins. Leo is a great player, but he's much slower, so the path to wins for him is often playstyle or character innovation.

it doesn't matter what character you use in any smash game -- whether that's Melee or smash 4 or this game -- if you are that much faster than your opponent you'll still have pretty good odds.

 

[Rizen]

Adding to this, Skyjay's further proves there are no bad characters in Ultimate, only characters who are worse than others.

 

[williamsga555]

I'd disagree that it proves anything, because Incineroar never should have been lumped in with the "bad" characters to begin with. He's not some secret top tier, but he's far from the likes of Ganon and company.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd disagree that it proves anything, because Incineroar never should have been lumped in with the "bad" characters to begin with. He's not some secret top tier, but he's far from the likes of Ganon and company.

Truth. I understand folks are excited, but let's be real.
Tiers are real. They are dynamic and we are always learning more about any given game that is being played competitively. When a perceived low tier does well there are literally only two valid explanations.

Match-up inexperience or the character is better than the community thought. It's NEVER that tiers don't exist. As long as characters have different moves, properties, and stats, tiers exist.

blackghost

Whoever is top tier and my secondary is whoever covers the losing matches of my main. Capcom announced 1 mil. Play to win.

 

[Cheryl~]

sparg0's Plant is having success because sparg0 the player is way faster than any other player (yes including Light). There has been a very noticeable speed gap between sparg0 and literally every other player for the last year, even if sparg0 isn't winning everything or if Leo has eked out better wins. Leo is a great player, but he's much slower, so the path to wins for him is often playstyle or character innovation.

it doesn't matter what character you use in any smash game -- whether that's Melee or smash 4 or this game -- if you are that much faster than your opponent you'll still have pretty good odds.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. One of the main things I notice as a Light fan whenever he loses to Sparg0 (other than being frustrated and thinking that Cloud is egregiously broken compared to Fox) is just how FAST Sparg0 is able to move, to the point where even a character like Light's Fox is struggling to keep up. You even notice it with his Aegis, it just does things no other Aegis player does or can do and it makes you question how Sparg0 is able to make these plays so efficiently. And when you really think about it, it really does come down to his unparalleled awareness and understanding of the game that makes him play as if he knows everything that's going to happen. And it shows in his gameplay, even with a character like Plant, he just knows everything and it looks extremely good and fast.

 

[Arthur97]

That seems to be ignoring player skill as a valid reason a fighter may perform well. If Leo mopped up with Ganondorf at a local doesn't mean he is not one of the worst and yet they might fight him plenty. He's just that much better.