Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Sucumbio]

Ludwig is doing an invitational in the middle of October for both Melee and Ultimate featuring 32 players for both games (with a 30K prize pool), and these are all the players that have so far been invited.

This is the most stacked major in top talent since EVO 2019, it's essentially only missing Yoshidora (Who they tried to get and declined) and Kameme.

Be good to see ESAM added to this list

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Be good to see ESAM added to this list

ESAM is part of the LCQ

If he makes top 8 at the LCQ, he'll be in the main event.

 

[NotLiquid]

Enjoy this fleeting moment of schadenfreude

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results from WAVE #2, a Japanese major that happened today.

1. Shuton
2. KEN
3. Asimo
4. Kameme
5. chicken
5. takera
7. ProtoBanham
7. Tsubotsubo
9. Shogun
9. Gorioka
9. MASA
9. Noi
13. YOC
13. Gachipi
13. Abadango
13. Choco
17. CAPURICO
17. Rimu
17. Rinkururu
17. Matyamatta
17. Waniwani
17. T
17. Paseriman
17. LISUTO

Shuton wins his first post-quarantine major (unless you count Seibugeki 9 & 10)

 

[NotLiquid]

PAX Arena's Almost Pro tournament went down last night (part of Panda Cup) and while it was relatively modest in attendance, Aaron's rally last night for a first place finish with no dropped sets was probably one of the most convincing displays of Diddy Kong I've seen. Some will argue that Light and Kola weren't at their peak performance but I don't think I've consistently seen a player outmaneuver all the tried-and-true damage loops, KO conversions and tech call-outs these particular players are so good at doing. Maybe I'm just more wowed at who made this happen, but perhaps given Tweek's been in a bit of a slump, it's nice to see that the character has shown to be as nuts as some people insist on him being.

 

[Diddy Kong]

PAX Arena's Almost Pro tournament went down last night (part of Panda Cup) and while it was relatively modest in attendance, Aaron's rally last night for a first place finish with no dropped sets was probably one of the most convincing displays of Diddy Kong I've seen. Some will argue that Light and Kola weren't at their peak performance but I don't think I've consistently seen a player outmaneuver all the tried-and-true damage loops, KO conversions and tech call-outs these particular players are so good at doing. Maybe I'm just more wowed at who made this happen, but perhaps given Tweek's been in a bit of a slump, it's nice to see that the character has shown to be as nuts as some people insist on him being.

Any chance I can watch these sets online ?

 

[NotLiquid]

Any chance I can watch these sets online ?

There's no individual VODs of matches but the full Day 3 stream can be found here.

The sets Aaron played were against WaDi ( 0:48:02 ), Light ( 3:10:42 ) and Kola ( 5:41:53 ). The timestamped link with Kola is the Grand Finals rematch since Aaron sent him to losers earlier.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Almost Pro at Pax West
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/x617d4 Results for Cascadia Clash
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/x67f1o

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New bimonthly tier list done by r/smashbros

 

[Sucumbio]

New bimonthly tier list done by r/smashbros

Seems people are coming around to Pikachu being top 10 but not top 3 or barely even top 5.

 

[Arthur97]

Even top 10 may be a bit suspect, but it's better than best in the game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some interesting notes: Corrin had 21 votes for high +, 83 for high -, 89 for mid +, 22 for low +, and 6 for low - (I'm not sure what people voting her in low are thinking). I think she's probably high -, maybe mid +, so seems reasonable enough.

Pikachu 149 top +, 43 top -, 22 high +, 9 high -, I'm guessing many of the high votes were because they thought Pikachu is overrated and they wanted to balance it out a bit.

Aegis 218 top +, 9 top -. Steve 197 top +, 19 top -, 9 high +. I wonder what it'll take for Steve to be #1 on the tier list? He still ended up #2 though. Maybe next time he'll be #1, although there are probably more people believing he's like top 10 than people believing Aegis is top 10.

Sephiroth making it to High tier + is interesting. 6 top +, 27 top -, 111 high +, 71 high -, 8 mid +.

Chrom is an interesting case, with 11 top -, 55 high +, 85 high -, 39 mid +, 21 mid -. More and more top players are dropping Chrom and his inconsistent recovery is making him look quite a bit worse than Roy, to the point where a decent amount of people place him in mid tier while they place Roy in top tier.

Overall, I think it's a solid enough tier list, although I would move some characters up 5 or more spots and some down 5 or more spots. Most are at least approximately in the right tier.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Genuine question: Why do people think Seph is top tier? While he seems impressive at first, he dies at 50% consistently and is robbed of wing a lot.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Genuine question: Why do people think Seph is top tier? While he seems impressive at first, he dies at 50% consistently and is robbed of wing a lot.

People mostly don't but he does have the results to back it up at least (#9 on OrionStats right now). If he had perma-wing he would easily be top tier, but as you mentioned he loses it easily in some situations, which is problematic for him. Even without wing he has some great strengths, such as great ledgetrapping, a really, really good f-tilt, really good aerials, solid down-smash (and with wing it's one of the best down-smashes in the game), good mobility, good recovery (better with wing though), and a better grab game than most distance demons. His edgeguarding is really good too, and he has probably the best counter in the game.

I personally think he's high tier though, results aren't everything.

 

[Arthur97]

Oof. Poor Chrom. Too late for him to really get any help though.

 

[superjm]

Aegis 218 top +, 9 top -. Steve 197 top +, 19 top -, 9 high +. I wonder what it'll take for Steve to be #1 on the tier list? He still ended up #2 though. Maybe next time he'll be #1, although there are probably more people believing he's like top 10 than people believing Aegis is top 10.

Aegis is going to have that #1 spot solidified for a while based on those numbers. The confidence in Aegis is only going to increase over time with Leo prominently using her, to say nothing of Cosmos, Shuton, possibly Sparg0, and all of the not-quite-tippy-top-level-but-still-strong bracket warriors showing up with Aegis mains/secondaries.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Aegis is going to have that #1 spot solidified for a while based on those numbers. The confidence in Aegis is only going to increase over time with Leo prominently using her, to say nothing of Cosmos, Shuton, possibly Sparg0, and all of the not-quite-tippy-top-level-but-still-strong bracket warriors showing up with Aegis mains/secondaries.

We also effectively had 3 Aegis major wins in a row starting with Rise 'N Grind, as Wave 2 and Shine 2022 were counted as majors on OrionStats, and they were all won by different players.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

People mostly don't but he does have the results to back it up at least (#9 on OrionStats right now). If he had perma-wing he would easily be top tier, but as you mentioned he loses it easily in some situations, which is problematic for him. Even without wing he has some great strengths, such as great ledgetrapping, a really, really good f-tilt, really good aerials, solid down-smash (and with wing it's one of the best down-smashes in the game), good mobility, good recovery (better with wing though), and a better grab game than most distance demons. His edgeguarding is really good too, and he has probably the best counter in the game.

I personally think he's high tier though, results aren't everything.

My problem with him is that he just feels too predictable. The only thing that I feel is super powerful beyond belief is triggering jumps due to fear of downsmash. Otherwise he feels like one of the 10,000 glass cannons in this game but instead of frame data he has range, which is a worse trade off imo considering that top tiers can duck in and out of his range decently easily, even with wing.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Aegis is going to have that #1 spot solidified for a while based on those numbers. The confidence in Aegis is only going to increase over time with Leo prominently using her, to say nothing of Cosmos, Shuton, possibly Sparg0, and all of the not-quite-tippy-top-level-but-still-strong bracket warriors showing up with Aegis mains/secondaries.

Smashboards is so weird at times, I feel like it was so recent where people went like "yeah Aegis is a bit overrated, maybe top 5" etc, and now people are saying Aegis is #1? (I'm not saying you're saying they're #1 but it does feel like Smashboards keeps shifting their view of Aegis quite frequently, though could be different posters posting I suppose).

But yeah, Aegis has potentially the strongest top player support right now, with Shuton favoring them over Olimar, and MkLeo playing them again (though who knows how long that will last?), and Cosmos seemingly being more consistent again. It's unclear whether Sparg0 will even play them when he comes back, he might opt for Cloud.

The only thing that I feel is super powerful beyond belief is triggering jumps due to fear of downsmash.

It's wing. Without wing he'd probably be like low mid tier, but wing is such a powerful tool that it boosts him into high tier.

 

[Arthur97]

I mean, isn't the Smash community as a whole a bit quick to change topics? Like how they hated Kazuya before seemingly forgetting about him shortly thereafter. Steve was the menace, then the sisters started winning so they're back to the spotlight.

 

[Idon]

Genuine question: Why do people think Seph is top tier? While he seems impressive at first, he dies at 50% consistently and is robbed of wing a lot.

"People"?
I haven't seen that opinion thrown around since month 1 of his release.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Watching Aaron's Diddy made me realize once again how polarized the character is, I mean damage goes and comes easy for Diddy, one good combo or read in neutral can result in great damage but the trade-off is being hit can result in great damage too. This was especially noticable vs Light with Fox and Kola with Roy. WaDi's Ice Climbers resulted in a way slower pacing.

I also think Diddy is indeed a potential lower Top Tier because of this all, the character was just ill suited for Tweek on the long run cause he can't deal with the drawbacks as much as Aaron, it effected his play, Aaron was able to hold his calm even after devastating losses against Light in a couple of sets, Light absolutely destroyed him in the games he won.

Am very curious to see where Aaron can take his Diddy, he's very patient and does great things out of reads and doesn't lose concentration when the tides turn against him, and this is probably what is required to take Diddy to the highest potential. With Aegis being so dominant yet again, and Diddy being one of the best matchups against Aegis this could be promising for his Ultimate career.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Reporting in from Riptide 2022. We are about to see vs in Winner's Finals.

Definitely not what I was expecting when this tournament went underway.

 

[superjm]

Either a Falco or a Mega Man is gonna win a major.

The Agenda is finally being fulfilled?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The Falco Agenda

 

[StrangeKitten]

Imo, the Steve situation is why balance patches ending after the release of Sora was a bad idea. I feel that was too soon, as it didn't give the new meta with the FP2 characters enough time to develop. Maybe in a non-covid world, it would mostly be okay. But we were only just starting to see the new meta when Sora released. While I don't think Steve should be banned, I think a balance patch with some small nerfs would have been the way to go. Add a little bit of startup/endlag to some of his moves so his combo game isn't as nutty, and possibly also take away the diamond staying with him between stocks if he doesn't craft it. I feel like those would be sensible enough without hurting Steve too much.

Similarly, I think Sephiroth and Sora could have used a little love. Sephiroth's biggest flaw isn't that he's light, it's that his moves are slow. This allows him far less combo routes and renders his gameplan more linear than it needs to be, imo. I think he could use the opposite of my proposed Steve nerf: shave off a few frames here and there. Maybe also change some angles for better combos. Sora has a glaring issue of people falling out of his moves, which could have and most likely would have been addressed had balancing not ended too early.

 

[Arthur97]

Still seeing a grand finals of Falco and Mega Man at a major shows there is still plenty of health in the meta game. I'm personally still not sure if Steve is the best or just the weirdest. Though, even with Steve, I'd still say this is the most balanced Smash game. At worst, Steve seems a bit overturned at the moment. It's more than livable.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Summit 5 pools
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/xekyao

 

[Arthur97]

Wow, they may not have been taking the squad strike too seriously but the Luigi may have been scarier than the Kazuya in grands.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I actually think people excessively complaining about Steve (and other characters) in Twitch chat, on Twitter etc are doing more harm to the game than Steve (and other characters many people dislike such as Sonic and Kazuya). I currently find it unlikely that Steve will be banned, so for now it might be better to try to adapt a more positive mentality and try to find some entertainment in watching Steve and other "boring" characters, or watch fewer streams for those who can't deal with those characters. Watching VODs is an option, that way you can easily skip the boring parts.

I think Steve is here to stay. I don't think he's quite as strong as Smash 4 Bayonetta and it would take a lot of evidence in order to push a ban. acola has proven that he's a good player even without Steve (just check out his squad strike performance?), and I think the same applies to many other Steve mains as well. Is Steve the best character in the game? Probably. Should people who really want to win switch to Steve? Perhaps, but even in Smash 4 many people didn't switch to Bayonetta and they still did well, and I don't think Steve is stronger than Smash 4 Bayonetta (though if people keep discovering new tech he might be in the future).

I think it's probably a good idea to calm down on the "carried" talk as well, partly because it's disrespectful to people who still put down a lot of time getting good at their characters, and partly because it probably enables haters to spread more hate. Apparently players like Onin are getting death threats just for playing Steve! That's unacceptable behavior and I do think excessive character bashing encourages at least some character hate.

 

[Sucumbio]

Death threats tho? Wtf...

 

[blackghost]

Death threats tho? Wtf...

oh yeah thats nothing new. it should result in a perma ban from the community.
in smash 4 it was awful at some places for Bayonetta and cloud players now these people have moved on to steve players. bayo players were known to have been spit on, physically assaulted, name calling, death threats and more. this community needs to mature rapaidly.

 

[Eremurus]

Death threats tho? Wtf...

I mean, it really is no surprise. If the actual person in question isn't a literal 15 year old, they are a 25 year old that acts like a 15 year old. "Smash community" and "nuance" have rarely, if ever, mixed.

 

[Sucumbio]

oh yeah thats nothing new. it should result in a perma ban from the community.
in smash 4 it was awful at some places for Bayonetta and cloud players now these people have moved on to steve players. bayo players were known to have been spit on, physically assaulted, name calling, death threats and more. this community needs to mature rapaidly.

Wow. Just ... Damn. Heh I had no idea this was a thing that's just mind blowing. I mean if mkleo or sparg0 or someone got treated this way I'd imagine it would be tons of folks standing up for them, no? Poor guy that's just f'd up.

Eremurus true I suppose the smash community has always been known to be toxic but sheesh that's just uncalled for.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I find it absurd that people get death threats and other forms of harassment because they chose to play as a character in an inoffensive video game. Some people need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and really think about what they're doing.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Today's sets for Ultimate Summit 5 has concluded. Here was our completed sets:

Pool A
MkLeo 3-0 Kola
MkLeo 3-0 T3 DOM
Riddles 3-1 Kola
Riddles 3-1 T3 DOM

Pool B
acola 3-2 Cosmos
acola 3-0 Myran
Dabuz 2-3 Cosmos
Dabuz 3-1 Myran

Pool C
Sparg0 2-3 Tweek
Sparg0 3-0 Jahzz0
Glutonny 3-2 Tweek
Glutonny 1-3 Jahzz0

Pool D
Light 3-0 Anathema
Light 3-1 Ouch!?
ProtoBanham 3-1 Anathema
ProtoBanham 3-1 Ouch!?


MkLeo, Riddles, Light, ProtoBanham, and acola are already at very comfortable spots, winning their sets in dominant fashion (minus acola vs Cosmos).

Pool C was an absolute bloodbath, and every player are currently 1-1 in sets. This is definitely the spiciest pool to look at tomorrow.

 

[NairWizard]

If I can make a suggestion: you'll never reach anyone by disparaging death threats and saying that the community needs to mature. Who is going to listen to you except people who already agree with you?

Instead, let's try to bring positivity to the Steve mains by recognizing their talents wherever we can.

On this note, my observation from Summit so far is that acola is easily one of the best smash players I've ever watched play the game--possibly even the best.

He's almost equally good at spacing, juggling, ledgetrapping, edgeguarding, juggling, and mixups in neutral, while having strong adaptability and quick reaction time. And on top of that, he's a wizard with his character. How many players can even say that? The list is very small--it's a small handful of players, an elite club featuring Leo, sparg0, and Zackray historically. Others who have come close to that well-roundedness, such as Proto, narrowly miss in one of those categories (adaptability for Proto--he often needs to prepare thoroughly for opponents to beat them).

Onstage disadvantage may be the only area where acola lags behind the very tippy top, and he makes up for it with the most impressive of all of his skills: his restraint.

Match to match, set to set, to play no better than the level of his opponent and to experiment live during the chaos and back and forth, avoiding kill setups that he knows he could get just to try something out -- it's insane. He's never not in control. Watching him feels like staring down a well of bottomless skill, and whenever you catch up to him and go even with him, he pulls out those extra reserves and surpasses you. People play friendlies with him but they're not really playing him; they're playing an afterimage because he's already mentally surged past whatever they thought they were fighting. Cut away the afterimage, and the beast guarded by the restraint overwhelms you before you knew what was happening.

This restraint is the cornerstone of his consistency, and it's something that we've only ever seen from one other player, ever--Leo.

The other notably dominant players like sparg0 and Tweek were always dominant without reserve, regardless of the stage of bracket--for example, when sparg0 played Tea in Losers Bracket at Mainstage, sparg0 destroyed him, super hard, without consideration for stamina or pacing. Tweek eliminated Leo and took a set off of sparg0 at Collision only to run out of steam in the grand finals reset. The lack of restraint gave those players (slight) weaknesses that someone like Leo could exploit. From tourney to tourney, stressed sparg0s and Tweeks would face fresh Leos who still had plenty of energy left to win the tournament, and they consistently ended up 2nd in results.

Meanwhile, Leo would always have that reserve, and let himself lose while playing to the pace of his opponent until he could bring those reserves out.

acola is the same--but better at it.

I'm not sure that he'll win this Summit just because of how stacked it is and the fact that anyone could win it given the format, but I have never seen a smash player quite like him.

 

[Sucumbio]

Kola makes the most heartbreaking face when he loses. Anyway, I enjoyed watching Roy. Seems like I've barely seen him lately.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Today's remaining pool sets and standings:

Pool A
MkLeo 2-3 Riddles
Kola 3-2 T3 DOM

1. Riddles (Set 3-0; Game 9-4)
2. MkLeo (Set 2-1; Game 8-3)
3. Kola (Set 1-2; Game 4-8)
4. T3 DOM (Set 0-3; Game 3-9)


Pool B (THIS TOOK FOREVER!!!!!!)
acola 1-3 Dabuz
Cosmos 3-0 Myran
acola 1-2 Cosmos (tiebreaker one Bo3)
acola 2-1 Dabuz (tiebreaker one Bo3)
Dabuz 2-0 Cosmos (tiebreaker one Bo3)
acola 1-0 Dabuz (tiebreaker two Bo1)
acola 1-0 Cosmos (tiebreaker two Bo1)
Dabuz 0-1 Cosmos (tiebreaker two Bo1)

1. acola (Set 2-1; Game 7-5; H2H Point 1; Tiebreaker 3-1)
2. Cosmos (Set 2-1; Game 8-5; H2H Point 1; Tiebreaker 2-2)
3. Dabuz (Set 2-1; Game 8-5; H2H Point 1; Tiebreaker 1-3)
4. Myran (Set 0-3; Game 1-9)


Pool C
Sparg0 3-2 Glutonny
Tweek 3-0 Jahzz0

1. Tweek (Set 2-1; Game 8-5; H2H Point 1)
2. Sparg0 (Set 2-1; Game 8-5)
3. Jahzz0 (Set 1-2; Game 3-7; H2H Point 1)
4. Glutonny (Set 1-2; Game 6-8)


Pool D
Light 1-3 ProtoBanham
Anathema 0-0 Ouch!?

1. ProtoBanham (Set 3-0; Game 9-3)
2. Light (Set 2-1; Game 7-4)
3. Anathema (Set 1-2; Game 4-8)
4. Ouch!? (Set 0-3; Game 4-9)



Pool B lasted forever. Shoutouts to acola having the mental stamina to go through not just one round, but two rounds of tiebreakers.
Poor Dabuz could've had 1st seed right off the bat if he didn't choke against Cosmos yesterday. By the time he fought in the 2nd tiebreaker, his gameplay looked so fatigued.

Riddles, acola, Tweek, and ProtoBanham are guaranteed into the winner's side at bracket tomorrow.
Gauntlet Phase is next.

Edit:
Can someone at one point reply here so I can post the gauntlet results + tomorrow's bracket?

 

[Arthur97]

Well, there wasn't much said about Peabnut and Mega Man's performance. Any thoughts there?