Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

Well, there wasn't much said about Peabnut and Mega Man's performance. Any thoughts there?

PGStats did a video

 

[Arthur97]

Saw that. Just wasn't much here. Also seemed oddly focused on Crash Bomber for some reason.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Gauntlet Bracket results!


Pool 1
Dabuz 2-3 T3 DOM
Sparg0 3-1 T3 DOM

Pool 2
Jahzz0 3-2 Myran
Light 3-2 Jahzz0

Pool 3
Anathema 2-3 Glutonny
MkLeo 2-3 Glutonny

Pool 4
Kola 3-1 Ouch!?
Cosmos 2-3 Kola



Tomorrow's Bracket:

Winner's
Riddles vs Glutonny
ProtoBanham vs Sparg0
acola vs Kola
Tweek vs Light

Loser's
Myran vs MkLeo
Anathema vs T3 DOM
Ouch!? vs Cosmos
Dabuz vs Jahzz0


MkLeo in losers already is crazy, but I believe this happened once before at a past Summit and he still went far.


Edit:
Aside from the long, tiring mess that was the Pool B tiebreakers, today was filled with some fire sets. Glutonny looked like he lost some years off of his life after reverse 3-0'ing MkLeo, and I don't blame him.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Tomorrow's Bracket:

Winner's
Riddles vs Glutonny
ProtoBanham vs Sparg0
acola vs Kola
Tweek vs Light

Loser's
Myran vs MkLeo
Anathema vs T3 DOM
Ouch!? vs Cosmos
Dabuz vs Jahzz0

The only two sets that don't feature FP2 for this is T3 DOM vs Anathema and Tweek vs Light.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The only two sets that don't feature FP2 for this is T3 DOM vs Anathema and Tweek vs Light.

Well it depends on which characters some of them pick. Riddles may play Terry, Proto may play Lucina, and Dabuz may play Rosa.

 

[PK Gaming]

Are we ready to admit to Aegis being overrated or are we going to continue this song and dance of them being the best character in the game

 

[Arthur97]

It may not be entirely impossible for them to be the best, but at the same time, they're definitely not overwhelming. Granted, I don't think anyone is in Ultimate. Yes, even Steve. Acola is very probably the best Steve in the world, but even then didn't absolutely destroy people with him generally.

 

[NairWizard]

I'd caution against drawing too many character conclusions from this Summit. This is probably the wildest smash tournament we've ever seen--so many game-5 last-hit situations that come down to the players' emotions and stamina reserves. Even the friendlies were extremely intense and must have been exhausting. Almost every set could have gone the other direction easily.

It's very unnatural to have to play more than 2-3 top-10 caliber players throughout a bracket. We always praise impressively long losers runs like Leo's Frostbite run for doing that. Well, here, it's like everyone is making that run! It's always like this at Summit, but this one is many times more stacked than usual, and everyone is actually playing well, fully accustomed to the post-quarantine meta.

None of the former Summit champions even placed in top 4.

This one's pretty crazy, I can't even begin to say what I've learned about the characters from watching this. It's been a real blast to watch though.

 

[Arthur97]

True, you can never really determine too much on one tournament, but it does at least further drive home that these threats can be dealt with.

 

[superjm]

Are we ready to admit to Aegis being overrated or are we going to continue this song and dance of them being the best character in the game

They are though.

I'm kind of tired of the absolutely ridiculous standards this character is being held to, especially when people spent three years hyping up characters like Pikachu as the best on little more than hopes and dreams.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Are we ready to admit to Aegis being overrated or are we going to continue this song and dance of them being the best character in the game

Someone's got to be. Steve, Aegis, and Joker seem like the strongest contenders for #1 right now, and you could probably cherrypick examples of all three of them in order to build a case. And I quite often see Aegis as #2 and #3 on top player tier lists rather than #1 (many people think it's Steve).

Personally I'm inclined towards thinking Steve is #1 and then either Aegis or Joker #2. It does seem like people are learning counter-play for Steve quite rapidly, but even then acola still beat Tweek. For the time being, Steve seems like the most likely candidate for #1, but I suppose there's still room for doubt.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm still not sold on Steve being the best, but yeah, that is the thing. Best is a relative title. You can be the best by a slim margin. Perhaps we're too used to hyper powerful best in the games that are pretty clearly the best but that's unlikely to happen here. Though, Joker being number one seems like more of a relic of the past. Sure, he's still strong, but isn't really making waves anymore.

Though the community is so prone to kneejerk reactions, of course they started putting Steve at number one. Honestly though, we may never have a truly definitive number one. And, really, isn't that a good thing? Ranked tiers just may not be feasible in this game (I mean ranked within the tiers).

 

[NairWizard]

I mean, everyone makes kneejerk reactions. When Aegis wins a tournament, the people who think Aegis are #1 come in and remind us, "see, I told you this character was clearly #1." When Aegis does poorly, the people who think Aegis isn't #1 come in and go, "huh, I thought Aegis was overpowered? what happened, Aegis haters???" It was the same story with Byleth, it was the same story with Pikachu, it was the same story with every character who has ever been touched by the spotlight.

Maybe the smugness is just unwarranted and we should exercise some patience.

 

[Rizen]

They are though.

I'm kind of tired of the absolutely ridiculous standards this character is being held to, especially when people spent three years hyping up characters like Pikachu as the best on little more than hopes and dreams.

Aegis is like the anti-pikachu: it doesn't matter how many tournaments they win; people will still say they're overrated.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's not like I see my takes as sancrosanct

I was right about Pikachu, wrong about Byleth and reasonably confident about Aegis but not a big deal if I'm wrong here too.

But come on, Aegis disadvantage is a problem. They can win a dozen neutral exchanges and lose one and the stock is gone. That's such a substantial flaw that I feel people constantly downplay, for whatever reason. #1 character claim is such a joke when Mkleo is forced to swap out of her, and when Steve is a thing.

Exercising patience is a fine suggestion, but how long will that excuse hold up?

And I love Xenoblade so it's not like I'm biased against Aegis or anything (in fact Mythra is a personal favourite character of mine)

 

[Arthur97]

At this point it may be less of waiting to see how good they are but rather waiting to see how good Steve is? Is he overrated too? To some extent almost certainly going from the high level fear mongering. Counter play is certainly developing even if at a slower pace so it remains to be seen if he's really that good or if he got by on weirdness that let him advance faster than the counterplay. Not saying he isn't good, but best I'm not entirely sure.

That said, again, Joker seems almost like a nostalgia pick for top spot.

 

[PK Gaming]

That said, again, Joker seems almost like a nostalgia pick for top spot.

He absolutely is, heh

 

[NairWizard]

That's such a substantial flaw that I feel people constantly downplay, for whatever reason. #1 character claim is such a joke when Mkleo is forced to swap out of her, and when Steve is a thing.

Exercising patience is a fine suggestion, but how long will that excuse hold up?

It's just that the takes on both sides lack any kind of nuance. The evidence can be read to support either take across multiple tournaments, so you have to be a bit more careful in parsing it.

In this tournament, we saw Leo's Aegis lose to Kazuya and Wario in game-5 situations that could easily have gone the other way, and then we saw Leo's Aegis lose handily to Tweek's Diddy. What does that tell you? To me, it says the following:

1) Aegis has volatile matchups against touch of death characters who have strong anti-airs. Leo narrowly lost both matchups because he had to play around touch-of-death win conditions that led to edgeguarding situations. It wasn't just because of Aegis' disadvantage. It points to a hole in Aegis' neutral play. They can't play as safely around those clutch situation because of Mythra's lack of drift. Leo seemed particularly bad (relative to Leo's general skill level) at playing that situation too.

Tea also mentioned that Leo is much worse in Aegis v. Kazuya than Cosmos.

2) Aegis may have a losing matchup to Diddy, or else a very volatile one. Tweek has lost to sparg0 and Cosmos' Aegis (twice). The losses to Cosmos were so bad that Tweek thinks the matchup favors Aegis. Leo clearly doesn't know how to play the matchup nearly as well as either of the others.

These results tell me that Aegis has two matchups probably close to even and one matchup that could either be winning or losing, or even.

Really, that's almost no data at all, a drop in a bucket of evidence over the last year.

On the other hand, from Shine, Rise N Grind, and even this tournament, we have solid evidence to suggest that Aegis wins vs. Roy (despite Cosmos' loss to Kola), Fox, and ROB, three very meta-relevant characters.

I just don't understand what people are looking at to feel so confident in their takes one way or another. Aegis could still be overwhelming or could be perfectly fine or could be overrated.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's just that the takes on both sides lack any kind of nuance. The evidence can be read to support either take across multiple tournaments, so you have to be a bit more careful in parsing it.

In this tournament, we saw Leo's Aegis lose to Kazuya and Wario in game-5 situations that could easily have gone the other way, and then we saw Leo's Aegis lose handily to Tweek's Diddy. What does that tell you? To me, it says the following:

1) Aegis has volatile matchups against touch of death characters who have strong anti-airs. Leo narrowly lost both matchups because he had to play around touch-of-death win conditions that led to edgeguarding situations. It wasn't just because of Aegis' disadvantage. It points to a hole in Aegis' neutral play. They can't play as safely around those clutch situation because of Mythra's lack of drift. Leo seemed particularly bad (relative to Leo's general skill level) at playing that situation too.

Tea also mentioned that Leo is much worse in Aegis v. Kazuya than Cosmos.

2) Aegis may have a losing matchup to Diddy, or else a very volatile one. Tweek has lost to sparg0 and Cosmos' Aegis (twice). The losses to Cosmos were so bad that Tweek thinks the matchup favors Aegis. Leo clearly doesn't know how to play the matchup nearly as well as either of the others.

These results tell me that Aegis has two matchups probably close to even and one matchup that could either be winning or losing, or even.

Really, that's almost no data at all, a drop in a bucket of evidence over the last year.

On the other hand, from Shine, Rise N Grind, and even this tournament, we have solid evidence to suggest that Aegis wins vs. Roy (despite Cosmos' loss to Kola), Fox, and ROB, three very meta-relevant characters.

I just don't understand what people are looking at to feel so confident in their takes one way or another. Aegis could still be overwhelming or could be perfectly fine or could be overrated.

No harm in throwing out my 2 cents especially if it leads to productive conversation

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Ultimate Summit 5

1st: ProtoBanham
2nd: Light
3rd: Kola
4th: acola
5th: Glutonny
5th: Riddles
7th: Tweek
7th: Sparg0
9th: MkLeo
9th: Anathema
9th: Ouch!?
9th: Dabuz
13th: Myran
13th: T3 DOM
13th: Cosmos
13th: Jahzz0


One of the best, if not THE best tournament in Ultimate history.
Very little filler sets among the top players. Everything was elite. Everything was down-to-the-wire. Everything was determined by the smallest of decisions. Some of the best individual sets in Ultimate history was also contained in this bracket, with pretty much every set involving Tweek having this distinction.

 

[NairWizard]

Amazing watch. I believe Proto is also in contention for the #1 spot with this win (and has the h2h against Leo).

 

[NotLiquid]

This is such a pedestrian analysis that has already gone mentioned several times before, nor does it ring as news to anyone, but Proto really has become the exemplar for how to co-main a character; not because he knows which character to pull out for a matchup that might be trickier (because honestly why would you bust out a Min Min against Fox if you were worried about that), but because he's genuinely shown an adeptness at both his characters that frankly has me convinced that he could have stuck to any one of his two characters and still see the same level of success. That kind of reliance on what ifs is obviously romanticized and not necessarily true, and there's certainly always logic behind his switches and counterpicks — stages are one of the factors — but that's at least how it always feels like when I watch him play because he’s mastered both characters and managed to apply them in equal measure in comparable situations. It's like a flow state more than it is a panic response. Take his set against Sparg0 for instance; that mid-set switch to Lucina didn't net him any wins but that was by no means an ill-advised switch when he still managed to push the game to a similarly close victory as his one Min Min loss that set. Conversely his Min Min was showing more prowess across the Grand Finals set in its mid-stages, with a third game that could've easily swung either direction toward the last stock, yet he still flipped back to the Lucina to cinch the two remaining victories, with one of them being a complete reversal of the stomp Light had dealt him in the initial set. I don't think I've ever had to question the outcome of a pick or loss because he always shows a level of confidence that other dual-main players just don't; not by Tweek, not even by MKLeo during his character crisis days (which also rings all the more poignant by his recent tweet about Aegis).

Incredible Summit on the whole. Just when I wonder whether this game still has gas in the tank to provide me with unexpected thrill rides, it delivers probably one of the best tournaments we've seen yet.

 

[Trunks159]

Question: Does Leo beat Tweek if he goes Byleth from the start?

 

[Idon]

Question: Does Leo beat Tweek if he goes Byleth from the start?

Absolutely.
With months of rust and as a desperate last-ditch effort, he managed to take that Byleth to a game 5, last hit situation. Over the course of a single game, you could physically see him get more and more confident and confirm more stray hits and confident reads. Had he had that progression from the start, I feel like he would have probably won over the Aegis that got gimped repeatedly.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Amazing watch. I believe Proto is also in contention for the #1 spot with this win (and has the h2h against Leo).

His poor records against some players and underperformances in Japan prove doubt to that though, even the other top Japanese players don't lose as much over there as he does.

 

[Trunks159]

Absolutely.
With months of rust and as a desperate last-ditch effort, he managed to take that Byleth to a game 5, last hit situation. Over the course of a single game, you could physically see him get more and more confident and confirm more stray hits and confident reads. Had he had that progression from the start, I feel like he would have probably won over the Aegis that got gimped repeatedly.

Yeah Tweek completely dismantled the Aegis.

I'm wondering if Leo wins the whole event from there

 

[NairWizard]

Question: Does Leo beat Tweek if he goes Byleth from the start?

It's hard to say. There are a lot of factors I'd consider here.

-Leo missed some critical shieldbreak attempts that he would probably have nailed with a more practiced Byleth.
-Tweek definitely prepared for the Aegis because Leo has been very vocal about going mostly Aegis with a secondary Joker just for Min Min recently.
If Tweek knew the Byleth was in rotation, then he would have prepared for the Byleth.
-Game 5 happened on PS2, which is a terrible stage for Byleth in the MU. You saw how much Diddy was able to get the banana and run away with it repeatedly on that stage, with Leo tailing the whole game.
-On the other hand, Game 3, which started the reverse 3-0 train, happened on Smashville, which isn't a great stage for Diddy in the MU.

I think if Leo switched to Byleth game 2 (Hollow Bastion) without announcing the Byleth in his rotation, then he won the set 3-2 with g5 being on his counterpick.

But if Leo had prepared the Byleth in advance, who knows.

 

[Sucumbio]

I miss Leo's Byleth.

 

[NairWizard]

One last thing I'd like to add is that Lucina-Fox, Fox-Roy, and Lucina-Roy were kind of refreshingly balanced matchups to watch at the end. I liked the dynamic of Fox having stronger burst in neutral but not being able to string together long hits against Lucina due to up-b (btw, as an aside, Light threw that second set because of how angry he was over what he perceived as icing; in his anger, he took Lucina back to Battlefield which does Fox absolutely no favors since Lucina can up-b to top platform), and the Lucina-Roy in Winners Finals was in particular a joy to see.

If you know me personally, you know that I actually started going to tournaments in Ult by maining Roy. I recall that the reason I ended up ditching Roy was that the Lucina matchup was just way too hard. I ended up picking up ZSS to deal with the MU. When Kola went up 2-0 I was surprised; even after endless Roy meta progression, Lucina still feels like she should win the matchup pretty convincingly. The adjustments made in the reverse 3-0 with falling n-air, f-tilt, and b-air sealed up that dissonance though.

But this seemingly hard matchup is still nothing compared to some of the brutally one-sided matchups we see from FP2 characters.

While FP2 may not be too strong like some suggest, they're definitely polarizing. Almost every character in FP2 has some matchups that they just win by force, and some matchups that they lose by force. Min Min vs. certain characters is a win on the CSS, and Min Min vs. others seems like a loss on the CSS. Kazuya is even more egregious in this regard, and Aegis sometimes feels like the most volatile character in the cast. Sephiroth with Wing seems almost explicitly designed to fit in this container.

Some characters can also claim this in the base roster, but the design choices in FP2 have leaned more toward balance by virtue of having winning and losing matchups than balance by virtue of a kit that can pull through across matchups. In essence, we got (stronger versions of) Belmonts and Luigis in this FP2, instead of Roys and Lucinas and Foxes. The balance patches have even emphasized this direction in the case of Min Min. I wish the balance team had kept Min Min's original n-air and nerfed some of the distance strategies instead, so that she would be less of an autowin and also less of an autoloss.

 

[Arthur97]

If he got that angry over what he thought was icing, then it kinda worked, intended or not. Though I think I read Proto has some sort of medical condition which is at least part of why he may have taken so long to get back to the game.

 

[NairWizard]

If he got that angry over what he thought was icing, then it kinda worked, intended or not. Though I think I read Proto has some sort of medical condition which is at least part of why he may have taken so long to get back to the game.

He didn't even really take that long given that he lost a set. Light had way more time between Winners Semis and his losers match with acola. The Iceman thing was taken too far. I mean, blankets? Come on.

I'm not a big Proto fan but I felt sort of bad for him. Light implied that the ice was the only reason for his loss instead of Proto's skill (though he later issued a retraction); the commentators barely asked Proto any questions about his victory (and some of the questions they did ask had to do with the icing); there was no crowd behind him during his victory questioning; and half the top players didn't even do the normal "retweet the winner announcement" that they always do. Seemed like a very clear anti-Proto bias to me.

People say that there's a lot of acola hate, but I personally saw a lot of acola appreciation over the weekend, and way more negativity toward Proto.

 

[Arthur97]

Huh, that is weird. His mains probably don't help either being not exactly the community's favorites, but still. Seems kind of like a less extreme Sonix case. Why would they behave that way though? Is it the perceived icing and then they just end up overblowing it in their minds?

 

[Trunks159]

He didn't even really take that long given that he lost a set. Light had way more time between Winners Semis and his losers match with acola. The Iceman thing was taken too far. I mean, blankets? Come on.

I'm not a big Proto fan but I felt sort of bad for him. Light implied that the ice was the only reason for his loss instead of Proto's skill (though he later issued a retraction); the commentators barely asked Proto any questions about his victory (and some of the questions they did ask had to do with the icing); there was no crowd behind him during his victory questioning; and half the top players didn't even do the normal "retweet the winner announcement" that they always do. Seemed like a very clear anti-Proto bias to me.

People say that there's a lot of acola hate, but I personally saw a lot of acola appreciation over the weekend, and way more negativity toward Proto.

Yup, and I saw someone mention that Proto doesn't get coaching in between the break. Getting coaching in between is one of the benefits you get from being in Grands from Winners.

Icing is a 100% perfectly fine strategy, more honorable even then going for timeouts (im not saying going for timeouts isn't 'honorable' but its lower on the list). Although I highly doubt icing was even his intention.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Potentially stupid question.

What is "icing?"

 

[Sucumbio]

Potentially stupid question.

What is "icing?"

Taking a time out when your opponent is "on fire" to "cool" them off.

In other words, breaking an opponents momentum.

 

[Trunks159]

Taking a time out when your opponent is "on fire" to "cool" them off.

In other words, breaking an opponents momentum.

Timing out limit Cloud basically

 

[NotLiquid]

Potentially stupid question.

What is "icing?"

Icing originated as a sports term where coaches or players will call time-outs in order to "ice" the opponents when they're at an advantage or about to attempt a significant scoring play (most commonly associated with gridiron football where it was commonly done against kickers). It's a purely hypothetical strategic maneuver meant to instill pressure onto a mentally prepared player so that they will choke going into their next play. Sports usually allot a limited set number of time outs for a team across the span of the entire game, so while its effectiveness is questionable it's still a valid resource to use. Obviously Smash is a little different and things/opinions/sentiments vary a lot depending on specific tourney rulesets.

The reason Proto is perhaps derogatorily referred to as the Ice Man is because he's known to take relatively long pauses between some games/sets than other players are known to do, which really could be for a bunch of different reasons, but the common sentiment is usually that they're attempts to slow down the opponent's momentum.

 

[Sucumbio]

I suppose if there's a lesson to learn from this, it's that going forward, there should probably be a clarification or globalization of break time limits. If we're to give them both the benefit of the doubt, Light was off for calling him out and Proto is off for having done this enough to earn a nickname. As for the strategy itself, it doesn't always work as anticipated. Having your momentum interrupted should always be part of your preparation.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, its basically intentionally stopping another player's momentum through non gameplay methods.

Okay that makes sense.

 

[Arthur97]

If he does have a medical condition then I don't think Proto was off. If you gotta go you gotta go.