Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

[...]Proto is off for having done this enough to earn a nickname

You know how the community can be, earning a nickname doesn't necessarily mean much. Anyways, the reason according to ProtoBanham himself is that he's suffered from kidney stones several times in the past and now drink a lot of water in order to reduce the risk of that happening again, and thus he needs to take frequent bathroom breaks. The community giving someone flak for a medical condition doesn't sit well with me, especially when it's really not that big of a deal (it was, what, a few minutes? Not like he took a 20 minute break). Light handled it poorly by complaining about it at Summit and on Twitter, although I suppose it was a stressful situation for him so I'll cut him some slack. I won't cut Twitch chat any slack, though. I hope ProtoBanham isn't too bothered by it.

 

[Minordeth]

Light’s frustration with his perception of being iced is really a self-fulfilling prophecy.

“I need to keep this energy going in order to win” is the same as “if I don’t keep this energy going, I’m going to lose.”

The struggle to ensure peak performance regardless of any given situation is common in almost every kind of competition. So is blaming your competitor for deficiencies in your performance.

Great sets, regardless.

 

[Diddy Kong]

To be honest, is that Light or is that more or less the fault of the character? I see with Fox a similar thing I often experience with playing Diddy, very explosive in advantage but once in serious disadvantage it's at least as explosive, maybe moreso due to light weight. Tweek's Diddy suffers these lack of momentum moments too, where things just seem to explode in his face.

 

[Eremurus]

To be honest, is that Light or is that more or less the fault of the character? I see with Fox a similar thing I often experience with playing Diddy, very explosive in advantage but once in serious disadvantage it's at least as explosive, maybe moreso due to light weight. Tweek's Diddy suffers these lack of momentum moments too, where things just seem to explode in his face.

Fox has gotten blown up once put in disadvantage since Smash 64. I agree with the sentiment here.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fox has gotten blown up once put in disadvantage since Smash 64. I agree with the sentiment here.

The tradeoff with Fox and Diddy is that they're probably the most aggressive combo juggernauts that allow for a lot of creativity on the players part. I think they got just about the most dangerous combo potential in the game. There isn't one character I can think of that's as good at this as Fox and Diddy, hence why watching Light and Tweek is always a blast. I especially enjoy their matches against each other. Not to mention Aaron, he's also extremely versatile and very very patient, which is why I think he'll be seeing great results soon.

 

[Rizen]

I don't see as having good combos so much as just having an extremely fast and adaptable advantage state. His buttons are fast both in start and end lag and he can quickly flow from one attack to another in a vortex. Pair this with his quick ground speed and fast fall speed (which is a double edged sword) and he can easily do things like chain one Uair into two more and there's not much the opponent can do about it. He's balanced by poor reach and light weight but not enough to make him anything less than top tier imo. Lower top tier. Fox is an extremely strong character in the hands of a player with good reactions.

 

[Arthur97]

Huh, even the PGStats video on Summit seems to kinda just barely touch on Proto's win. One of the most notable things they may have said was the one set he stayed exclusively Lucina. They didn't throw shade at least.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Huh, even the PGStats video on Summit seems to kinda just barely touch on Proto's win.

He was one of the favorites to take it, he's nothing new at this point, and he won through winners. I imagine if Leo had won from winners using Aegis they wouldn't talk too much about that either. They would've for acola since Steve, Tweek since Tweek hasn't done as well recently, and anyone else since anyone else winning would've been a bit surprising (Gluto and Light a bit less so, I suppose). Well, and Sparg0 was probably a favorite to win as well, but even then they would've talked about him since he recently came back.

I do think ProtoBanham somewhat benefits from stage before character. Many top players have started asking for character before stage, something most of Europe has been running for some time now. You'd always have to ban Final Destination against ProtoBanham unless you want to risk fighting Min Min on FD. You'd always have to ban FD against acola and Riddles unless you're willing to risk Kazuya FD, etc etc. And sometimes, like with Myran vs acola, the loser of the previous game will counter-pick themselves since the winner can just swap after the stage has been chosen. Character before stage fixes this.

 

[Frihetsanka]

ProtoBanham made a video about the bathroom breaks. From the YouTube comments: "Basically, Protobanham is suffering from kidney stone. He was advised by his doctor to go toilet immediately whenever he feel the need to, and to drink 2-2.5 litres of water and he must drink water every 10min to 20min. He usually goes to toilet around every 10-40mins, but since he's nervous that time range is shorten, hence he goes to toilet more often. He is also aware about coaching when he went to toilet, so everytime when he goes to toilet he will leave his smartphone on the table. If there's any mistranslate please do correct me as I'm still not fluent in japanese. I hope people can be more forgiving about his situation."

From a Reddit comment:

"Samsora took an extended break after Mkleo got the bracket reset in Ultimate Summit 2 grand finals. Samsora spent the time receiving coaching from every American player in the venue and even some of the American commentators at that event.

The same commentators that joked about Protobanham being the "ice man" all of SUS5 praised Samsora at the time for his maturity and decision making in taking a beat rather than jumping straight into the next set. Mkleo didn't pre john and still washed him in the second set. No controversy, no suggestion that the American player was trying to "ice" the Mexican player.

American players and commentators john-ing about international players feels pretty hypocritical at best."

This is an interesting perspective. Can you imagine MkLeo complaining about a break and saying that if he'd lose it's because his opponent took a break for a few minutes? If anything, I think Light played himself, he let it get into his head that he was being "iced" and then he played worse for it. Or maybe he didn't and he would've lost regardless, but it's probably not great to get annoyed right before getting into a set.

It feels to me that commentators etc have a bias towards American and Canadian players over Japanese, European, and, to some extent, Mexican players (with the possible exception of MkLeo). Japanese players are often subtly depicted as invaders, antagonists that the US and Canadian protagonists will have to overcome.

I do think the way commentators and top players talk about the game affects Twitch chat, Twitter, and Reddit. If commentators are complaining about characters, like Steve or Sonic, then that increases the likelihood that Twitch chat will as well (and that can, sadly, lead to player hate as well). You can see this in other streams as well (like for team based games): Some streamers try to focus on the positive and avoid flaming their teammates, and their chats will generally be less toxic. Some streamers tend to yell and trashtalk their teammates quite a bit and their chats are generally more toxic as a consequence of that. Commentators and top players need to realize that, whether they like it or not, the way they talk and act is going to affect the community.

Dabuz said on Reddit that they were not aware of ProtoBanham's medical situation, it did sound like people were annoyed with ProtoBanham for a few reasons (including the perceived "icing").

I hope there will be some lesson learned from this. Maybe don't assume maleficent behavior when there are other, less malicious reasons for someone acting a certain way? And maybe top players and commentators should consider more carefully how they express themselves. Whether they like it or not, they're going to act like role models for the community, and if they act poorly that's going to affect the community.

 

[Sucumbio]

Although half joking there's been a bit of twitter noise today about Japan needing to be stopped because they've been winning so many tournaments lately lol. So even if it's subconscious there's something to the bias talk.

Poor proto tho I can't imagine having to pee so frequent.

 

[Trunks159]

ProtoBanham made a video about the bathroom breaks. From the YouTube comments: "Basically, Protobanham is suffering from kidney stone. He was advised by his doctor to go toilet immediately whenever he feel the need to, and to drink 2-2.5 litres of water and he must drink water every 10min to 20min. He usually goes to toilet around every 10-40mins, but since he's nervous that time range is shorten, hence he goes to toilet more often. He is also aware about coaching when he went to toilet, so everytime when he goes to toilet he will leave his smartphone on the table. If there's any mistranslate please do correct me as I'm still not fluent in japanese. I hope people can be more forgiving about his situation."

From a Reddit comment:

"Samsora took an extended break after Mkleo got the bracket reset in Ultimate Summit 2 grand finals. Samsora spent the time receiving coaching from every American player in the venue and even some of the American commentators at that event.

The same commentators that joked about Protobanham being the "ice man" all of SUS5 praised Samsora at the time for his maturity and decision making in taking a beat rather than jumping straight into the next set. Mkleo didn't pre john and still washed him in the second set. No controversy, no suggestion that the American player was trying to "ice" the Mexican player.

American players and commentators john-ing about international players feels pretty hypocritical at best."

This is an interesting perspective. Can you imagine MkLeo complaining about a break and saying that if he'd lose it's because his opponent took a break for a few minutes? If anything, I think Light played himself, he let it get into his head that he was being "iced" and then he played worse for it. Or maybe he didn't and he would've lost regardless, but it's probably not great to get annoyed right before getting into a set.

It feels to me that commentators etc have a bias towards American and Canadian players over Japanese, European, and, to some extent, Mexican players (with the possible exception of MkLeo). Japanese players are often subtly depicted as invaders, antagonists that the US and Canadian protagonists will have to overcome.

I do think the way commentators and top players talk about the game affects Twitch chat, Twitter, and Reddit. If commentators are complaining about characters, like Steve or Sonic, then that increases the likelihood that Twitch chat will as well (and that can, sadly, lead to player hate as well). You can see this in other streams as well (like for team based games): Some streamers try to focus on the positive and avoid flaming their teammates, and their chats will generally be less toxic. Some streamers tend to yell and trashtalk their teammates quite a bit and their chats are generally more toxic as a consequence of that. Commentators and top players need to realize that, whether they like it or not, the way they talk and act is going to affect the community.

Dabuz said on Reddit that they were not aware of ProtoBanham's medical situation, it did sound like people were annoyed with ProtoBanham for a few reasons (including the perceived "icing").

I hope there will be some lesson learned from this. Maybe don't assume maleficent behavior when there are other, less malicious reasons for someone acting a certain way? And maybe top players and commentators should consider more carefully how they express themselves. Whether they like it or not, they're going to act like role models for the community, and if they act poorly that's going to affect the community.

Yes there is subtle bias but I don't think it's an issue. I wouldn't necessarily say this is a good example of bias against Japanes players either. Proto takes a large amount of time in between games essentially every single time he appears on stream (obviously when facing a capable opponent, an obviously this is noticed in his american tournaments since those are the ones commentatorsare commentating). It's consistent. I'm not saying it's not justified. I mean I think it actually is justified.

Either way it's just a joke. Some of the people in twitch chat take it seriously of course but no one cares about twitch chat and trying to control them is a fool's goal.

Ultimately I'd say no harm done. Light got a little salty is all

 

[Frihetsanka]

Yes there is subtle bias but I don't think it's an issue. I wouldn't necessarily say this is a good example of bias against Japanes players either. Proto takes a large amount of time in between games essentially every single time he appears on stream (obviously when facing a capable opponent, an obviously this is noticed in his american tournaments since those are the ones commentatorsare commentating). It's consistent. I'm not saying it's not justified. I mean I think it actually is justified.

Either way it's just a joke. Some of the people in twitch chat take it seriously of course but no one cares about twitch chat and trying to control them is a fool's goal.

Ultimately I'd say no harm done. Light got a little salty is all

I do think it's an issue. Perhaps not a major issue but it is quite annoying for non-American viewers, especially given that most majors are on American ground for some reason (probably a bunch of reason why it ended up that way but that's still how it is). It's something commentators can work on and top players keep in mind.

Regarding ProtoBanham, I don't really like the "It's just a joke" defense. Does ProtoBanham play along with it? Does he find it funny? Does he joke about it himself? I suppose you could try to put yourself in ProtoBanham's situation, would you find it amusing that people in Twitch chat, commentators, and top players call you "ice man" because of a medical condition that forces you to go to the bathroom frequently? I don't have such a medical condition myself but I don't think I would find it very funny. Maybe if it were close friends, but strangers on the Internet? Commentators that are supposed to be neutral and impartial? Other top players that you don't know very well? Not so funny anymore.

I don't know how he feels about it but given that he made a video about it I think we can assume that he doesn't enjoy the "ice man" spamming. Twitch chat is hard to control but maybe they should have stricter moderation (is there any moderation right now? Seems rather lax compared to some other game streams I've watched), but top players and commentators? They could do better, and I would expect better from them.

"Ultimately I'd say no harm done", I don't really think that's for you to say. We don't know how it's affected ProtoBanham. We do know that parts of the community were toxic enough to Onin to make him disable his Twitter account. We also know of many other examples of part of the community being toxic. I don't think the Super Smash Ultimate community is the most toxic community out there, but it's sure not the least toxic.

But, yeah. I would be careful with making jokes at someone else's expense unless you know them well. One person doing it might not be so bad, but if many top players, commentators, and large portions of Twitch chat are doing it then it's not so great anymore. Besides, I don't think it was actually "just a joke", Light seemed to believe in the "ice man" narrative for real.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, there's nothing wrong with a healthy rivalry, and if Japan taking the gold in majors spurs people to play better, then nice. It improved the meta. So long as it is/stays healthy at least.

Though I have noted how influencers can seemingly impact the way people think about certain fighters. Though it's hard to know if they're parroting common opinions or if people are parroting theirs. Whether it be some fighters being "lame" or "boring" or Pikachu being the best in the game (seriously, not sure if that would have ever been a common idea without top players and YouTubers, which aren't always the same, circulating it) it is hard to tell where their influence begins and ends. That said, they almost certainly have some influence. On the flip side, there isn't much we can really do about them using their influence.

 

[Minordeth]

On the one hand, Summit is a showcase of skill from the elite of the elite. On the other hand, it has the same energy as a frat house, with a distinct focus on personalities and content creation.

Lacking a producer, the commentary crew drive and create narrative threads, whether they mean to or not. They also set the tone toward the various competitors.

A great deal of this insipid drama derives from the inability of the commentary crew - as a whole - to fully set aside their personal friendships with various competitors.

It's clear that at some point, the competitor POV bled into the commentary POV, and the bias against Proto took off from there. It's not solely his responsibility, but Light's charisma drove a lot of it.

Look at the difference between the reception to Acola after Light clutched his 3-2 win versus the reaction to Proto after his loss. As Acola came down, Light began clapping for him and had nothing but praise, which was mirrored by the rest of the room. Contrast this with the chilly reception to Proto, coming down right after Light threw in his shot about Proto's bathroom break.

I don't want to place too much responsibility on Light. Those with lion's share of mic time absolutely had the ability to reset the tenor of the event, and they didn't - either because they weren't aware of their own biases, or they were too passive to speak up.

 

[Trunks159]

I do think it's an issue. Perhaps not a major issue but it is quite annoying for non-American viewers, especially given that most majors are on American ground for some reason (probably a bunch of reason why it ended up that way but that's still how it is). It's something commentators can work on and top players keep in mind.

Regarding ProtoBanham, I don't really like the "It's just a joke" defense. Does ProtoBanham play along with it? Does he find it funny? Does he joke about it himself? I suppose you could try to put yourself in ProtoBanham's situation, would you find it amusing that people in Twitch chat, commentators, and top players call you "ice man" because of a medical condition that forces you to go to the bathroom frequently? I don't have such a medical condition myself but I don't think I would find it very funny. Maybe if it were close friends, but strangers on the Internet? Commentators that are supposed to be neutral and impartial? Other top players that you don't know very well? Not so funny anymore.

I don't know how he feels about it but given that he made a video about it I think we can assume that he doesn't enjoy the "ice man" spamming. Twitch chat is hard to control but maybe they should have stricter moderation (is there any moderation right now? Seems rather lax compared to some other game streams I've watched), but top players and commentators? They could do better, and I would expect better from them.

"Ultimately I'd say no harm done", I don't really think that's for you to say. We don't know how it's affected ProtoBanham. We do know that parts of the community were toxic enough to Onin to make him disable his Twitter account. We also know of many other examples of part of the community being toxic. I don't think the Super Smash Ultimate community is the most toxic community out there, but it's sure not the least toxic.

But, yeah. I would be careful with making jokes at someone else's expense unless you know them well. One person doing it might not be so bad, but if many top players, commentators, and large portions of Twitch chat are doing it then it's not so great anymore. Besides, I don't think it was actually "just a joke", Light seemed to believe in the "ice man" narrative for real.

People don't joke about it because he has a health condition. People joke about it because they don't know why he does it and its funny to think he's icing his opponent. No one even knew about the health condition.

As far as it being an issue for non-American viewers, that is an issue technically but a. there's definitely bias coming from the other side (if you've ever watched any European tournaments you'd know what I'm talking about),
b. The commentators are trying to create an entertaining product. Apealing to the majority of your viewers is a good idea, as long as you don't take it too far. I believe they haven't.

As far as whether it Proto is in on the joke, while I wouldn't say its completely irrelevant whether he's in on the joke or not, I will say its expectable to poke fun simply for entertainment sake even if that person doesn't know about it. I mean look at how much they make fun of Dabuz for his pop-offs or other awkward behaviors, or K9 raging. Obviously don't go too far.

'No harm done' by the commentators. It was a joke, and if other people want to go and take it too far and be 'toxic' that's their responsibility. I mean what do you want them to do, never make jokes or statements that could ever possibly offend someone? Makes for a less than lucrative product, as well as a boring event to watch for too many viewers.

Like I get what you're saying, and now that we know its because of a medical condition we can take our foot off the gas with the whole iceman thing (since its been proven to not be true).

A Arthur97
I get so tired of hearing that or or don't deserve their boxing tools. This is something parroted by top players way too much. Its like do you want them to have 0 incentive to ever fight you up close and go pure camp? These characters have other weaknesses that keep them in check.

Either way you guys are great to discuss things with.

 

[Arthur97]

Complaining about zoners having boxing tools while generally also complaining about zoning is quite a thing, isn't it? For me it's often the "lame" labeling and complaining about swordies (which conveniently seemed to not apply to Sephiroth and Sora in a lot of eyes) that gets me.

 

[Trunks159]

Complaining about zoners having boxing tools while generally also complaining about zoning is quite a thing, isn't it? For me it's often the "lame" labeling and complaining about swordies (which conveniently seemed to not apply to Sephiroth and Sora in a lot of eyes) that gets me.

Not sure that I've heard people call the swordies lame. I mean Roy, Lucina, and Chrom are known to be spammy, but that's it. Seph gets called lame sometimes (I slightly agree).

 

[Arthur97]

Not sure that I've heard people call the swordies lame. I mean Roy, Lucina, and Chrom are known to be spammy, but that's it. Seph gets called lame sometimes (I slightly agree).

Well, the two are not always used together. Lucina is often called "lame" or "boring" but a lot of the times they're just complaining about sword fighters which given how they reacted to Sephiroth and Sora generally can come off as more of "more valid" way to complain about fighters they don't like. Doesn't help when they generalize most or all swordfighters into being the same which is just factually not true. But there are apparently people who still think Ness and Lucas are very similar though.

Edit: I actually did see one guy say before he was added that essentially Sora was different because it's a key and not a sword and I'm not really sure if he was serious or not.

 

[Rizen]

People don't joke about it because he has a health condition. People joke about it because they don't know why he does it and its funny to think he's icing his opponent. No one even knew about the health condition.

As far as it being an issue for non-American viewers, that is an issue technically but a. there's definitely bias coming from the other side (if you've ever watched any European tournaments you'd know what I'm talking about),
b. The commentators are trying to create an entertaining product. Apealing to the majority of your viewers is a good idea, as long as you don't take it too far. I believe they haven't.

As far as whether it Proto is in on the joke, while I wouldn't say its completely irrelevant whether he's in on the joke or not, I will say its expectable to poke fun simply for entertainment sake even if that person doesn't know about it. I mean look at how much they make fun of Dabuz for his pop-offs or other awkward behaviors, or K9 raging. Obviously don't go too far.

'No harm done' by the commentators. It was a joke, and if other people want to go and take it too far and be 'toxic' that's their responsibility. I mean what do you want them to do, never make jokes or statements that could ever possibly offend someone? Makes for a less than lucrative product, as well as a boring event to watch for too many viewers.

Like I get what you're saying, and now that we know its because of a medical condition we can take our foot off the gas with the whole iceman thing (since its been proven to not be true).

A Arthur97
I get so tired of hearing that or or don't deserve their boxing tools. This is something parroted by top players way too much. Its like do you want them to have 0 incentive to ever fight you up close and go pure camp? These characters have other weaknesses that keep them in check.

Either way you guys are great to discuss things with.

's boxing game is often overrated by people. It's not bad but really mediocre. He gets destroyed up close by characters with actual good boxing games like the Shotos. His main combo tool Dtilt is frame 8. For reference good combo starters like Roy's Jab are frame 5. YL's grab is f12 and is one of the short tethers. YL's OoS options are fairly mediocre. Even though YL has an amazing f4 Nair, he can't immediately use it OoS because holding the shield button + jump and attack will buffer his f9 Zair. So you have to Shield>jump>release shield>attack, which is a huge pain in the butt and eats a few frames. YL's fastest other option is his f9 upB. He also has small hitboxes for CQC attacks and will lose to good disjoints like Lucina's.

YL's a solid high tier but there really isn't anything OP about him. He's pretty well balanced.

 

[Trunks159]

's boxing game is often overrated by people. It's not bad but really mediocre. He gets destroyed up close by characters with actual good boxing games like the Shotos. His main combo tool Dtilt is frame 8. For reference good combo starters like Roy's Jab are frame 5. YL's grab is f12 and is one of the short tethers. YL's OoS options are fairly mediocre. Even though YL has an amazing f4 Nair, he can't immediately use it OoS because holding the shield button + jump and attack will buffer his f9 Zair. So you have to Shield>jump>release shield>attack, which is a huge pain in the butt and eats a few frames. YL's fastest other option is his f9 upB. He also has small hitboxes for CQC attacks and will lose to good disjoints like Lucina's.

YL's a solid high tier but there really isn't anything OP about him. He's pretty well balanced.

I basically never selected Young Link on the selection screen until I went to go try this out. That is unfortunate. Although I'm not sure why you lose frames by doing that since you can just hit nair during the jumpsquat right?

 

[Rizen]

I basically never selected Young Link on the selection screen until I went to go try this out. That is unfortunate. Although I'm not sure why you lose frames by doing that since you can just hit nair during the jumpsquat right?

I guess that's true. It would be hard to do though since jump squat's only 3 frames in this game.

 

[Trunks159]

I guess that's true. It would be hard to do though since jump squat's only 3 frames in this game.

Yeah it's difficult because if you play Yoshi and nair OoS all of the time you have that muscle memory which just adds effort that shouldn't be necessary.
Though if you do IDJs you're somewhat used to buffering during the jumpsquat.

 

[Myollnir]

You can release shield and then N-air, you don't lose any frames since shield drops can be cancelled by jump in this game, it's really easy to do

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

's boxing game is often overrated by people. It's not bad but really mediocre. He gets destroyed up close by characters with actual good boxing games like the Shotos. His main combo tool Dtilt is frame 8. For reference good combo starters like Roy's Jab are frame 5. YL's grab is f12 and is one of the short tethers. YL's OoS options are fairly mediocre. Even though YL has an amazing f4 Nair, he can't immediately use it OoS because holding the shield button + jump and attack will buffer his f9 Zair. So you have to Shield>jump>release shield>attack, which is a huge pain in the butt and eats a few frames. YL's fastest other option is his f9 upB. He also has small hitboxes for CQC attacks and will lose to good disjoints like Lucina's.

YL's a solid high tier but there really isn't anything OP about him. He's pretty well balanced.

I think people generally feel his boxing is really good is because they try to punish his moves directly and are trying to punish the wrong moves. I will never understand why people try to punish his air moves on shield or won’t just shield slightly longer than usual and try to catch a defensive option. He only has like 2 safe ground moves, and one is jab 2 and the other is a down tilt you shouldn’t try to challenge up close unless you have a super fast OOS, and people try to shield grab it anyway.

What you said about his nair OOS is true as well, Yink simply can’t punish my safest moves on shield as a Hero player, who has notoriously poor safety on shield. Theoretically, he should be able to, but even spaced poorly its still not a guaranteed punish because of the frames lost from manually attacking.

Tbf he kinda needs to have goodish frame data. He kills so late that he needs ways to rack up damage, and if he had any worse frame data I’d reckon he would be a much worse character. Especially given how stale his air moves will be given that they are his best normals, which means he will have worse safety and kill power than the frame data would suggest.

The fact that most of his bad match ups are Swordies and Bowser is also unfortunate in a meta where Swordies dominate and Bowser is a great counterpick character.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results from the Pre-Local for Glitch Regen

1. Kameme
2. enhancedpv
3. KEN
4. naitosharp
5. Knuck
5. ZD
7. Red Oolong
7. Amaryllis
9. Ling
9. Justinbyleth
9. Gen
9. Clique
13. Unleashed
13. Jake
13. YOC
13. AoS

 

[The_Bookworm]

Results from the Pre-Local for Glitch Regen

1. Kameme
2. enhancedpv
3. KEN
4. naitosharp
5. Knuck
5. ZD
7. Red Oolong
7. Amaryllis
9. Ling
9. Justinbyleth
9. Gen
9. Clique
13. Unleashed
13. Jake
13. YOC
13. AoS

Quite a bit of faces I haven't seen in a while.

I also like how comically huge Kameme and naitosharp's character pool is.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Only 1 big upset so far today.
JustinByleth 2-1 Jake (Upset Factor 8)

More upsets have happened so here's the upset Twitter thread

Live Upset Thread for Glitch - Regen

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) September 24, 2022

 

[Frihetsanka]

Only 1 big upset so far today.
JustinByleth 2-1 Jake (Upset Factor 8)

Jake posted on Twitter that he's taking a break from Smash due to IRL stuff, which apparently affected how he played here and at the prelocal (and apparently his controllers are snapping back). Unfortunate, I hope the IRL stuff will turn out all right for him.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Top 32 of Glitch Regen https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/xn72qg

 

[NotLiquid]

Rejoice Sora Statheads; Kameme brought him into Top 8 of a major

Could've been from the winners side if not for a single miscalculated ledge option costing him a win against Sonix in the most insane close to a set I've seen.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Rejoice Sora Statheads; Kameme brought him into Top 8 of a major

Could've been from the winners side if not for a single miscalculated ledge option costing him a win against Sonix in the most insane close to a set I've seen.

Make that top 6 now

 

[Nekoo]

Make that top 6 now

You mean top 2

 

[Frihetsanka]

Light apologized for his attitude towards ProtoBanham at Summit so that's good. Jake did a pretty sick losers run considering how early he was knocked out and he did pretty well versus Kameme too. Sonix and Kameme doing really well at the tournament as well.

 

[NairWizard]

The gap between Light and almost everyone else is getting crazy. He's easily the most consistent non-Acola player in the game right now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The gap between Light and almost everyone else is getting crazy. He's easily the most consistent non-Acola player in the game right now.

Hmm, I don't know about that, MkLeo still exists. On his 15 latest tournaments, he's gotten first 9 times, second 3 times, third once, fourth 0 times, fifth once, and ninth once. Lights 15 latest (not counting Nairo's Birthday Bash Invitational which was 5 players): First 4 times, second 4 times, third 3 times, fourth once, fifth once, seventh once, 13th once.

So MkLeo was in grand finals 12/15 times, Light 8/15.

Light is likely a top 5 player right now, maybe even a top 3 player, but I don't think he's #1 quite yet. That's still MkLeo. acola is probably #2 right now. acola's most recent 15 tournaments (excluding an online tournament where he got 3rd, since it's online): First 12 times, second once, fourth twice. Grand finals 13/15 times... And it's looking even better if we extend it to his latest 20 tournaments. acola looking like a strong contender for #1 right now, even though I still think it's MkLeo.

Obviously we'd have to look at the actual tournaments to get a better picture. Some tournaments are more stacked than other tournaments, after all. ProtoBanham is another player that has been impressing me as of late, seems like a strong contender for top 5 at least, maybe even top 3. Japan is incredibly stacked right now and most likely the strongest country. It would be interesting to see what happens if some US players travelled to Japan in order to compete.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

So Kameme got second at Glitch. He has a spicy take on Twitter to say the least.

sora is top20

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) September 26, 2022

He is very confident in Sora’s MU spread it seems based on other tweets.

 

[NairWizard]

Hmm, I don't know about that, MkLeo still exists. On his 15 latest tournaments, he's gotten first 9 times, second 3 times, third once, fourth 0 times, fifth once, and ninth once. Lights 15 latest (not counting Nairo's Birthday Bash Invitational which was 5 players): First 4 times, second 4 times, third 3 times, fourth once, fifth once, seventh once, 13th once.

So MkLeo was in grand finals 12/15 times, Light 8/15.

Light is likely a top 5 player right now, maybe even a top 3 player, but I don't think he's #1 quite yet. That's still MkLeo. acola is probably #2 right now. acola's most recent 15 tournaments (excluding an online tournament where he got 3rd, since it's online): First 12 times, second once, fourth twice. Grand finals 13/15 times... And it's looking even better if we extend it to his latest 20 tournaments. acola looking like a strong contender for #1 right now, even though I still think it's MkLeo.

Obviously we'd have to look at the actual tournaments to get a better picture. Some tournaments are more stacked than other tournaments, after all. ProtoBanham is another player that has been impressing me as of late, seems like a strong contender for top 5 at least, maybe even top 3. Japan is incredibly stacked right now and most likely the strongest country. It would be interesting to see what happens if some US players travelled to Japan in order to compete.

Looking at the last year as a whole, for sure, Leo is ahead.
But the meta right now is absolutely different from the meta from earlier in the year. Japan and Steve are a key part of the meta that's missing from Genesis-era tournaments, and the consistency story looks quite a bit different in the new world.

When JP and Steve started surging into dominance, Leo was in Europe, avoiding all the JP players and also the Steves. He has several wins after Genesis, but look at the color of those tourneys: E-caribana, Colossel, 95 King of Fields 2, Relax and Smash...

Let's look at the ones post-JP win streak and Steve:

Leo has 2nd at Double Down
1st at Smash Factor
5th at Smash Con
1st at Rise N Grind
9th at Summit

Light has (discarding his 1st at Momocon which didn't feature JP):
2nd at Gimvitational
3rd at Smash Con
2nd at Shine
3rd at Almost Pro
2nd at Summit
1st at Glitch Regen


Leo's flat average: 3.6
Light's flat average: 2.16

Light's an entire placing and a half ahead recently.

Averages don't tell the whole story, of course, especially because the sample size here is very low, but the three hardest tournaments here were Gimvitational, Smash Con, and Summit.
Light outplaced Leo at 2 of these by a significant margin (2 spots smashcon, 7 spots Summit), and Leo didn't even appear at Gimvitational.

Light is absolutely ahead of Leo in the current meta. For Leo to catch up, Light has to moderately underperform (place outside of top 3 but within top 8) at least twice, or dramatically underperform just once.

The rankings will take into account all of the year though since the last ranking season, so Leo may still place 1st holistically, but the meta I'm looking at right now has a possible acola and Light top 2.

 

[NotLiquid]

So Kameme got second at Glitch. He has a spicy take on Twitter to say the least.

sora is top20

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) September 26, 2022

He is very confident in Sora’s MU spread it seems based on other tweets.

Top 20 feels like a hyper competitive spot to be in contention for these days but Kameme's play with Sora was by and large exceptional this weekend, especially for a player who's had real trouble registering on the radar ever since the quarantine season wrapped up. Crossing Sharp, Zomba, Jake and Sonix off of his victory list is no small feat. One could arguably reason that the second placing was the real story of this tourney since even if the bracket were to be populated by more higher ranked PGR names, Light's dominance would likely have still been expected coming off of Summit.

A thought "sort of unrelated to Sora's actual qualities but also kind of related" occurred to me watching Kameme's sets that if Sora was any more ubiquitous than he was, I could see the public absolutely hating this character. The reason for that is how incredibly basic his flowchart state is. This is one of those things that's partially exacerbated by the kind of characters Kameme had to face but he has a commonality with Ike in that he's always fishing for aerials. It's been an extremely long time since I've seen a character that's so dependent on a one-size-fits-all approach to put someone in disadvantage state. It's so basic, it's so goofy to look at, and it all somehow works. He has the range to space, he can drift into cross-ups, he can frame trap so many characters with his lingering hitboxes, and it all either confirms into damage, an easy tech chase, or a KO. Most of Sora's other moves don't feel like they have a presence from an idle state unless he's ledgetrapping, even though Kameme wound up finding some niche usage of Sonic Blade in later sets. Of course not all of Sora's tricks are foolproof, some characters can counteract a few (the cross-ups might be the most fickle), though it also made me envision a world where the most devious buff you could give a character in Ultimate would be buffing Sora's air speed.

I think part of his positive reception is definitely the optics stemmed from his lack of success, but I also think Sora's magic system plays a more subtle and unspoken role in it. This is probably the only other option Sora will be found employing commonly in neutral whenever he's not looking to catch you in an aerial, and I never appreciated how exciting it is to have to play around that limitation where every one of the projectiles can qualify as top of its class but can never be used without cycling through the ones you might not want. Firaga and Blizzaga are clearly the ones Sora will be looking to have more commonly on stage, and the audience atmosphere during this tourney absolutely sold the genius of how fun it is to anticipate when Sora will pull the trigger on his magic and how that's going to influence his next approach. It adds a little spice to his game plan that's more deterministic than the likes of Hero's Menu.

 

[F4lcoMain]

In Ultimate, it seems like more than 20 characters are top 20 lol

 

[Arthur97]

Indeed. People seem to be using it as more of an idea or in old terms than a literal top 20. Or maybe their view is skewed because in older game they might have been top 20, but that is a more competitive spot now with all the balance and a larger roster. With all the fighters generally much closer together than it used to be, people may not realize how good top 20 is, at least not completely. Or they do and they might be overselling. Like, getting second is good, but this is the game where Dr. Mario got like third and a Little Mac came close to beating Leo.