Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Myollnir]

After watching every Capitancito's game with and reading the whole Gunner discussion above, I still don't agree with his choice of going Charge Blast.

That move just simply isn't amazing and Capitancito didn't get a lot of mileage out of it (for those who don't know, it's a pretty laggy move compared to 's similar moves, it's more like ) .

He didn't get a lot of conversions with it (I only remember F-air into CB at low % which could've been something else for just slightly less damage) he only got a couple kills with it and didn't use the charge as a movement option.

It's a good move but outside of the psychological pressure of his character having a charged projectile available anytime to out prio most attacks / projectiles, I feel like it didn't help him a whole lot.


Grenade Launcher is one of the best moves in the game, and while there is counterplay, if you have the momentum to set it up, you're guaranteed to have a positive situation for you (in neutral, the worst you could get is forcing someone into the air and has good upwards attacks, or have someone clank with the grenade before it explodes but you have the dash attack to whiff punish that kind of stuff usually).

For edgeguarding purposes, Grenade Launcher is amazing, deals a lot of damage and will even kill at 130-140% which is really helpful to have and a lot of characters would kill for this move.
Bomb Drop seems to fulfill a similar role but you can hit it back to damage (kinda like 's gordo), match-up inexperience helps there but after Day 1, players started hitting the bomb back (even though they still weren't familiar with the match-up and had relatively diverse outcomes doing that lol).

I'd say it's mostly good in advantage (it did an insane job at ledgetrapping).

Speaking of ledgetrapping, the reason I could understand why someone would be reluctant to use Grenade Launcher is because it's similar to Bomb Drop there but you can actually use both. Bomb Drop doesn't explode until after a few seconds if doesn't spawn another one or the opponent doesn't activate it, so you can lay a bomb and still use GL. Plus, they're not used at the same distance.

GL can be enough on its own for ledgetrapping purposes, but that's not bad AT ALL for the character, as you can also have a reflector or an absorber instead of the bomb, giving much more flexibility.

Charge Blast may have gotten him more kills and damage ONLINE (where he qualified), though. That kind of move is INSANELY buffed by online play.

TL;DR : I don't understand why Cptcito went 1332 instead of 333X but he did put on an amazing performance so who am I to judge, right?

 

[SKX31]

SWT: Central America Ultimate Regional Finals (16 Entrants)

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Maister
3rd: Sonix
4th: Cloudy
5th: Sparg0
5th: Yei

7th: Capitancito
7th: ShinyMark
9th: 0mart
9th: WaKa
9th: BigBoss
9th: Nair^
13th: Mtkat
13th: Chag
13th: Andrik
13th: AlanDiss


Mexico seems to be THE region for top Aegis players, especially since Nair^ is planning on joining the fray.

A couple thoughts:

* I'm honestly not sure if the Aegis are Top 3. Yeah, it's early days and further optimizations will almost certainly be made - but one issue I noticed Aegis players having was that opponents oftentimes wound up living to 150 %+ (Maister in particular, but also others like Sonix took advantage of this). Think part of the issue is that Pyra's often going to hit stray hits that almost kill but doesn't quite - and while she and Mythra have incredibly potent KO confirms those did not come into play nearly as often as one might assume. One particular stock that caught my attention is Sparg0 vs. MKLeo Game 5, where Sparg0 got a stray hit across the stage but subsuquently went a bit too kill-hungry. Leo could manuever around the subsuquent swings: culminating in Sparg0 missing a F-Air and Leo punishing that with a D-Air shieldbreak - sealing Sparg0's second stock instead.

* Now I did re-watch MKLeo's set vs. Sonix specificially to look for pointers, and I think the main difference between his and Sparg0's / Cloudy's Aegis is that Leo's taking a more patient response to opponents approaching. Leo didn't just look to F-Tilt the ledge or just look for the stray hits, he played Pyra / Mythra kinda akin to how he plays his Byleth. He not only sought to set up a lead, he also made sure that opponents had to swing instead of trying to seal the deal by swinging himself. That does circumvent the above mentioned problem somewhat since then the opponents had a much more difficult time actually finding gaps and exploiting them.

* Maister went on a tear in the LB run. He went 15-5 in games over the course of 5 sets up until Grands, amassing 5 two-stock wins and a three stock over Cloudy in their Game 3, and reverse swept Sparg0. Safe to say that Maister has studied the Pyra / Mythra match up hard - particularily with how he aggressively goes off stage and hunts either of the Aegis' recoveries.

* Even if they didn't qualify I do believe this Regional benefits players like CapitanCito, ShinyMark and Nair in the long run. With them more so on the radar as a result of this they might get more opportunities / incentive to travel to more tournaments.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Every scrub ever.

After watching every Capitancito's game with and reading the whole Gunner discussion above, I still don't agree with his choice of going Charge Blast.

That move just simply isn't amazing and Capitancito didn't get a lot of mileage out of it (for those who don't know, it's a pretty laggy move compared to 's similar moves, it's more like ) .

He didn't get a lot of conversions with it (I only remember F-air into CB at low % which could've been something else for just slightly less damage) he only got a couple kills with it and didn't use the charge as a movement option.

It's a good move but outside of the psychological pressure of his character having a charged projectile available anytime to out prio most attacks / projectiles, I feel like it didn't help him a whole lot.


Grenade Launcher is one of the best moves in the game, and while there is counterplay, if you have the momentum to set it up, you're guaranteed to have a positive situation for you (in neutral, the worst you could get is forcing someone into the air and has good upwards attacks, or have someone clank with the grenade before it explodes but you have the dash attack to whiff punish that kind of stuff usually).

For edgeguarding purposes, Grenade Launcher is amazing, deals a lot of damage and will even kill at 130-140% which is really helpful to have and a lot of characters would kill for this move.
Bomb Drop seems to fulfill a similar role but you can hit it back to damage (kinda like 's gordo), match-up inexperience helps there but after Day 1, players started hitting the bomb back (even though they still weren't familiar with the match-up and had relatively diverse outcomes doing that lol).

I'd say it's mostly good in advantage (it did an insane job at ledgetrapping).

Speaking of ledgetrapping, the reason I could understand why someone would be reluctant to use Grenade Launcher is because it's similar to Bomb Drop there but you can actually use both. Bomb Drop doesn't explode until after a few seconds if doesn't spawn another one or the opponent doesn't activate it, so you can lay a bomb and still use GL. Plus, they're not used at the same distance.

GL can be enough on its own for ledgetrapping purposes, but that's not bad AT ALL for the character, as you can also have a reflector or an absorber instead of the bomb, giving much more flexibility.

Charge Blast may have gotten him more kills and damage ONLINE (where he qualified), though. That kind of move is INSANELY buffed by online play.

TL;DR : I don't understand why Cptcito went 1332 instead of 333X but he did put on an amazing performance so who am I to judge, right?

He got tons of mileage out of it. It's just not visually obvious. It's like a grappler in MMA whose standup is greatly enhanced by the threat of their takedown even if they only attempt it rarely.

I fail to see why nade launcher would be more offline friendly. If anything the opposite is true seeing as Grenade launcher is slow to come out and and moves slowly it is easier to land online whereas charge shot comes out fast and isn't hard to land offline either. The end lag it has makes it very bad on shield and even on hit sometimes true, but the fully charged blast is strong enough for it to be reasonably safe. I don't remember the exact data but the fact that it has a fairly short total duration and comes out fast means it's not a move that's going to be punished a lot, despite the end lag which really isn't that big anyway. Grenade Launcher is way riskier in general. As I said before you're gonna struggle to hit a competent opponent with it unless you use it at fairly close range where it's massive duration means it's super punishable.

Charge shot complements and synergizes with the other projectiles because it comes out and moves fast, fast enough that you can't react to it without a fair bit of distance. This changes the rules of engagement and is a big reason why it's better. Grenade Launcher just doesn't compliment Gunner in the same way. In terms of functionality it's like a mix of missiles and bdrop.

Players hitting the bomb drop back doesn't make it useless. It just opens up a new dimension of mindgames. You also seem to think grenade launcher can replace bomb drop which isn't the case.

Btw what do people think about Gunner and stages?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

MSM 240 is happening right now with the winner getting the last summit spot. This is basically a Major-level event.

First notable upset Ketchup 2-1 Light in one crazy-ass set.


Also with Cless 2-0 ZD its not looking like a good day for Fox.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Tyrant 2-1 Elegant .

Elegant's out at 33rd.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tyrant 2-1 Elegant .

Elegant's out at 33rd.

He is actually out at 25th.

Also, Scend 2-1 Light, eliminating him at 17th.

A player by the name of Kurama is making the waves this tournament.
He has defeated Scend 2-1 and Myran 2-0, and is currently set to fight Ned at winner's semi-finals.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

4

He is actually out at 25th.

Also, Scend 2-1 Light, eliminating him at 17th.

A player by the name of Kurama is making the waves this tournament.
He has defeated Scend 2-1 and Myran 2-0, and is currently set to fight Ned at winner's semi-finals.

Kurama is formely Prodigy. He was mostly quiet during the online era. But he is making a pretty strong retrun now

 

[Lacrimosa]

He is actually out at 25th.

Also, Scend 2-1 Light, eliminating him at 17th.

A player by the name of Kurama is making the waves this tournament.
He has defeated Scend 2-1 and Myran 2-0, and is currently set to fight Ned at winner's semi-finals.

Kurama is Prodigy.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

He is actually out at 25th.

Also, Scend 2-1 Light, eliminating him at 17th.

A player by the name of Kurama is making the waves this tournament.
He has defeated Scend 2-1 and Myran 2-0, and is currently set to fight Ned at winner's semi-finals.

Kurama is Prodigy, the Mario player who beat Leo at Frostbite.

Anyway, results for MSM 240.
1. Cosmos /
2. Ned
3. Kurama
4. T3 DOM
5. Fatality
5. Scend
7. Myran
7. Lui$
9. Chag
9. Ketchup
9. AC
9. ven
13. MFA
13. Cless
13. MinMain
13. Uncivil Ninja
17. M.M.Leo
17. Tyrant
17. Peckham
17. Lumbre
17. Razo
17. Monte
17. Cyro

Cosmos got into Summit 3, in addition Smash Ultimate Summit 3 now has the highest prize pool of any Summit period.

Oh and there are 4 Pyra/Mythra players (Leo, Cosmos, Sparg0 and VoiD) going to Summit, and combine this with there being 3 Pyra/Mythra mains in SWT Central America Regional Finals, with all those Pyra/Mythra mains getting into the SWT Championship Finals, they're going to go very quickly up on OrionStats. This is looking like pre-patch levels of how common the character is.

 

[Rizen]

Kurama is Prodigy, the Mario player who beat Leo at Frostbite.

Anyway, results for MSM 240.
1. Cosmos /
2. Ned
3. Kurama
4. T3 DOM
5. Fatality
5. Scend
7. Myran
7. Lui$
9. Chag
9. Ketchup
9. AC
9. ven
13. MFA
13. Cless
13. MinMain
13. Uncivil Ninja
17. M.M.Leo
17. Tyrant
17. Peckham
17. Lumbre
17. Razo
17. Monte
17. Cyro

Cosmos got into Summit 3, in addition Smash Ultimate Summit 3 now has the highest prize pool of any Summit period.

Oh and there are 4 Pyra/Mythra players (Leo, Cosmos, Sparg0 and VoiD) going to Summit, and combine this with there being 3 Pyra/Mythra mains in SWT Central America Regional Finals, with all those Pyra/Mythra mains getting into the SWT Championship Finals, they're going to go very quickly up on OrionStats. This is looking like pre-patch levels of how common the character is.

I'd definitely say 's the best character in the game and as good as pre nerf Joker, Wolf etc but I've talked about all that before. Nerfs wouldn't surprise me at this point. I'm not worried about the DLC situation becoming like smash 4 as I think the devs are more proactive about nerfing characters who need it.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Cloudy did his new tier list

Roughly ordered tier list before last character comes out. pic.twitter.com/V9hOkg0NlS

— Cloudy (@Cloudyos_) August 24, 2021

 

[The_Bookworm]

Kurama is Prodigy.

Kurama is formely Prodigy. He was mostly quiet during the online era. But he is making a pretty strong retrun now

Kurama is Prodigy, the Mario player who beat Leo at Frostbite.

Oops....
Well that is what I get for typing a post at midnight with my phone. lol

Anyway, results for MSM 240.
1. Cosmos /
2. Ned
3. Kurama
4. T3 DOM
5. Fatality
5. Scend
7. Myran
7. Lui$
9. Chag
9. Ketchup
9. AC
9. ven
13. MFA
13. Cless
13. MinMain
13. Uncivil Ninja
17. M.M.Leo
17. Tyrant
17. Peckham
17. Lumbre
17. Razo
17. Monte
17. Cyro

Cosmos got into Summit 3, in addition Smash Ultimate Summit 3 now has the highest prize pool of any Summit period.

Oh and there are 4 Pyra/Mythra players (Leo, Cosmos, Sparg0 and VoiD) going to Summit, and combine this with there being 3 Pyra/Mythra mains in SWT Central America Regional Finals, with all those Pyra/Mythra mains getting into the SWT Championship Finals, they're going to go very quickly up on OrionStats. This is looking like pre-patch levels of how common the character is.

Very solid placements by T3 DOM and ven as well.

Ned seems to be the premiere Sephiroth player right now.
It is a character you don't see too often in high level play lately, especially with Tweek mostly putting him in the back-burner in favor of Diddy Kong.

Personally see him at around the higher echelons of high tier. He is pretty good, but I think his lackluster frame data and poor endurance does hold him back from reaching top tier status as of right now.


I do have to say that the recent growth of still waiting for SmashBoards to fix the Mythra icon is kinda frightening.

We have all the Aegis players in Mexico showcased, with one added to the roster. Then there is Cosmos added to the mix, and the duo is one of MkLeo's and VoiD's character picks. The Aegis was the first DLC character where everyone agreed immediately that the character was strong.
This is for good reason: they are just very fundamentally sound characters, with all the tools higher tiered characters historically have in the Smash series.
No polarizing "extremely slow, but strong advantage state" characters like Steve and Kazuya.
Simply extremely potent fundamentals.
I think would've eventually been that way as well without MkLeo, especially given the state of him pre-patch, but he had the trait of being released still very early in Ultimate's metagame, and we all know how wacky the early meta was.


with her blazing fast mobility, potent combos, fast (albeit weak) KO options, fast frame data, and Foresight.
has strong KO potential, solid KO confirms, very good range, very generous autocancel windows, and one of the best projectiles in the game.
Also has the benefits of being very easy to pick-up for higher level players, similar to fellow top tier swordie .

The thing is that outside of maybe Foresight, there isn't really anything individually absurd about any of their moves/traits. The thing that makes them strong is simply their toolkit all put together and in-tandem with the another character as well. The end result is that I think properly nerfing them is going to be very challenging.

 

[Trunks159]

Cloudy did his new tier list

Roughly ordered tier list before last character comes out. pic.twitter.com/V9hOkg0NlS

— Cloudy (@Cloudyos_) August 24, 2021

Are people really going to start putting in high tier now?...

 

[BlazGreen]

are starting to remind me of. An easy to pick up swordie with a lacklustre recovery that makes up for it by having some absurd traits elsewhere. Thankfully Ultimate's balancing means they're not silly as Cloud was but the similarities are there.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I honestly do not think we will see the Ageis will nerfed to be honest. Call me pessimistic but yea. Think the smash team are just about done with support after the final FP2 character comes out.

 

[SKX31]

Cloudy did his new tier list

Byleth that high up?
Incin on roughly the same level as Steve and Wii Fit?
ICies bottom five?

Now those are some kinda bold takes and I appriciate that.

The thing is that outside of maybe Foresight, there isn't really anything individually absurd about any of their moves/traits. The thing that makes them strong is simply their toolkit all put together and in-tandem with the another character as well. The end result is that I think properly nerfing them is going to be very challenging.

I'm pretty convinced that they will try though, especially if - again - they become as common as pre-patch Wolf. Which is looking like a real possibility - regardless of how strong they turn out, fact of the matter is that they're:

A) Pretty easy to pick up once one gets used to Mythra - Pyra's even easier to pick up,
B) Can effectively cover a lot of situations thanks to the switch and their generous hitboxes,
C) While they have situational weaknesses - Mythra doesn't have solid get off me tools in the air outside of Foresight, which could leave her vurnerable to frame traps or air dodge reads, and Pyra struggles with OoS / parry situations - the switch again can help to negate those weaknesses to an extent.
D) As an extension of the above: Pyra does have incredibly dangerous aerials that covers Mythra's lack of get off me tools, while Mythra's frame data and better grab game means she doesn't have to worry about OoS / parries as much.

While I'm not fully a fan of the idea I wouldn't be surprised if their main solution turns out to be nerfing the switch's endlag - at least a bit. While it's intended to be fast - as evidenced by its differences from 's Change - Pyra / Mythra also benefit from having only each other to swap between. PT has to go with the set order, meaning that (s)he does not have acess to the full kit and kaboodle from the get go.

As for the other traits I'm adopting a wait and see approach - chances are they're going to go with mostly slaps on the wrist, because like with (and other characters) they probably don't want to wind up with Pyra / Mythra being overly nerfed. Which, honestly I'm agreeing with.

Then again, 's infinite airdodges with Gun has not been patched out, so I could be off here. So I'm saying this knowing that this could turn out to be wrong - and they could wind up not nerfed.

I honestly do not think we will see the Ageis will nerfed to be honest. Call me pessimistic but yea. Think the smash team are just about done with support after the final FP2 character comes out.

TBF Smash 4 did release post-last character patches (incl. a patch with just some of the most severe nerfs ever, handed to . Even those nerfs were not enough to stop Bayo players though), so there's precedence for post FP2 patches. Not saying it's guaranteed, but still.

 

[ARISTOS]

Short of killing their buttons completely I think Aegis will remain strong, Mythra's speed and ability to win neutral outright against 90% of the cast means as long as you can start well Pyra only needs to come out to seal things when most favorable. The fact that Pyra is solid on her own is just the cherry on top.

There are some key things players still aren't doing (Rolling into Pyra Side-B is one), but I think the only things we may see are slight adjustments to on-shield safety on stuff like Mythra nair/Pyra dair

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I almost Pyra/Mythra were think intentionally designed and released to be overtuned for whatever eason. With maybe balance patches happening when it obviously becomes a problem and the community makes enough of a stink about it.


Its not like it has not ever happened in the past. Anyone who ever played SFIV remember. Yun?

 

[toonito]

semi-unrelated but if Ultimate ended today then the #1 character might be one of

time will tell which of these 3 will join

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

No character in ultimate can compare to any old smash top tier, if a character that strong were released on this game it would be comparable to tekken 7 leroy dropping and basically EVERY ONE switching to him.

If i see protobaham, KEN, zackray , gluttony and tweek switch to full time aegies then i would be worried.

 

[Thinkaman]

What's interesting about Aegis is the weird skill curve they seem to be exhibiting.

Lots of characters are relatively better for beginners and get (relatively) weaker as players get better. Others are the opposite and thrive more at higher levels.

Perhaps yet more common is character with a particular spike, where they get better at a certain level where their strengths are "unlocked"--only to somewhat fall off past that level rather than keep rapidly increasing in viability.

But I feel like we're seeing a strange double spike with Pyra/Mythra. At a certain lower level of competitive play, Mythra's generous frame data and Pyra's generous hitboxes are super easy to pick up. But unlike Smash 4 Cloud, that low barrier doesn't extend upwards into every level of play--players quickly have to face some facts and content with the poor recovery, general precision requirements of Mythra, and need for reads with Pyra. So, okay, the usual spike--except then at the very top we're seeing the best players able to eventually break through those hangups and put out some dominant performances.

I feel like Pyra is a way bigger part of this "second spike" than the first. The Mythras we saw in Mexico--as far as my eyes could tell--were more polished but not fundamentally different or more effective than the Mythra play we've seen for months. Rather, everyone's Pyra play reminded me a lot of Leo's Ike in the way that peak play is squeezing every ounce of (lethal) coverage out of those hitboxes, nair in particular.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Speaking of the Aegis, more so Mythra. That might actually be bad for her.

Gm pic.twitter.com/wGE5Yo43KM

— Peli (@PeliPenguin) August 23, 2021

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Rather, everyone's Pyra play reminded me a lot of Leo's Ike

I mean, let's be honest, this isn't very surprising when Pyra can easily be described as making Ike top tier without making Ike top tier, they're both swordies who's main appeal is hitting hard and Pyra has better hitboxes, hurtbox shifting, better buttons and hits harder on average, what little advantages Ike himself has like slightly faster movement speed and more weight aren't significant enough to prevent Pyra from completely invalidating him

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, let's be honest, this isn't very surprising when Pyra can easily be described as making Ike top tier without making Ike top tier, they're both swordies who's main appeal is hitting hard and Pyra has better hitboxes, hurtbox shifting, better buttons and hits harder on average, what little advantages Ike himself has like slightly faster movement speed and more weight aren't significant enough to prevent Pyra from completely invalidating him

Wasn't the prevailing opinion that Pyra is only decent at best without Mythra? How can she be better than Ike in this scenario?

Strictly comparing the two, Ike has better average frame data, combo game including relatively easy and reliable kill combos, a better grab game, better OOS including that and a safer up b, recovery that blows both sister's out of the water, and a better disadvantage factoring that and having a counter. The only things Pyra truly has over Ike are bigger hitboxes and a projectile.

Same thing goes in the other direction, if you're thinking of playing Aegis mainly for Mythra you'd be better off with someone like Meta Knight with far greater combos, movement options and recovery that translates to much better edgeguarding, or Lucina if you want equal if not greater disjoint with far more varied means of taking out opponents.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Wasn't the prevailing opinion that Pyra is only decent at best without Mythra? How can she be better than Ike in this scenario?

Strictly comparing the two, Ike has better average frame data, combo game including relatively easy and reliable kill combos, a better grab game, better OOS including that and a safer up b, recovery that blows both sister's out of the water, and a better disadvantage factoring that and having a counter. The only things Pyra truly has over Ike are bigger hitboxes and a projectile.

Same thing goes in the other direction, if you're thinking of playing Aegis mainly for Mythra you'd be better off with someone like Meta Knight with far greater combos, movement options and recovery that translates to much better edgeguarding, or Lucina if you want equal if not greater disjoint with far more varied means of taking out opponents.

Mythra on her own is certainly better than Meta Knight just due to her mobility and Foresight. Honestly I think Mythra's mobility gives her better movement options then Meta Knight, plus all of Meta Knight's combos are the same. It's the up air ladder combos.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wasn't the prevailing opinion that Pyra is only decent at best without Mythra? How can she be better than Ike in this scenario?

Strictly comparing the two, Ike has better average frame data, combo game including relatively easy and reliable kill combos, a better grab game, better OOS including that and a safer up b, recovery that blows both sister's out of the water, and a better disadvantage factoring that and having a counter. The only things Pyra truly has over Ike are bigger hitboxes and a projectile.

Same thing goes in the other direction, if you're thinking of playing Aegis mainly for Mythra you'd be better off with someone like Meta Knight with far greater combos, movement options and recovery that translates to much better edgeguarding, or Lucina if you want equal if not greater disjoint with far more varied means of taking out opponents.

My point was more "no **** the better version of this archetype is similar at high level play" but looking at the frame data of their normals, the only moves Ike has that are flatout quicker are down tilt, which has 2 frames less start up but 2 frames more endlag, dash attack which is faster in both by a sizeable margin, Nair by 1 frame start up and 5 frames less landing lag, and Bair which is significantly faster, everything either generally has identical startup but with Pyra having less endlag but bigger hitboxes and more power. Of course you'd use both but for almost every advantage Ike has over Pyra, you have to put an asterisk to say 'only applies to Pyra, not Mythra' or 'only if Ike lands the sweetspot'. I don't know optimal combos off the top of my head but last I checked, Pyra's up b is actually faster than Ike while actually being able to ledgesnap and Ike's counter was considered pretty bad.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Round Robin Pools/Seeding for Smash Ultimate Summit 3.

Group A	1. MkLeo	8. Dark Wizzy	9. Kola	16. Atomsk
Group B	2. Tweek	7. KEN	10. Sparg0	15. Aaron
Group C	3. Zackray	6. Dabuz	11. Cosmos	14. Charliedaking
Group D	4. Marss	5. Maister	12. VoiD	13. Riddles

Sets to look out for based on these pools:

MkLeo vs Kola
Kola vs Dark Wizzy
Tweek vs KEN
Tweek vs Sparg0
Tweek vs Aaron
Sparg0 vs KEN
Zackray vs Cosmos
Zackray vs Dabuz
Dabuz vs Cosmos
Cosmos vs Charliedaking
Marss vs Riddles
Marss vs Maister
Marss vs VoiD
Maister vs Riddles
Maister vs VoiD
VoiD vs Riddles

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, Ike has a lot of advantages over Pyra, it's just that "Mythra" is about as big of a counterpoint as you could get. Not much more needs to be said.


Atomic take that I will 90% regret dropping later: Man, I dislike Summit.

It's just so fratty.

I would be uniquely embarassed to watch it with non-gamer friends, especially those outside the 20-30 male plays-esports mold. The "content" and in-jokes, the celebrity of it all. The implicit premise that we are supposed to care about these competitors as personalities beyond their performance. It feels like they are trying to sell a vicarious social experience as much as a tournament, and it can come across as super weird to those orthogonal to that transaction.

David Sirlin has written in the past about invitationals being mediocre for competition and community, and while I'm not as opinionated against invitationals as him I do think Summit encapsulates his complaints. (Except transparency)

Normally I skip both Summits and catch highlights later. But given the timing and significance this year, guess I'll be watching it live. Alas.

 

[BlazGreen]

I've always rooted for the characters I like rather than whoever plays them so the personality aspect of Summit is definitely lost on me.

 

[Trunks159]

I mean, Ike has a lot of advantages over Pyra, it's just that "Mythra" is about as big of a counterpoint as you could get. Not much more needs to be said.


Atomic take that I will 90% regret dropping later: Man, I dislike Summit.

It's just so fratty.

I would be uniquely embarassed to watch it with non-gamer friends, especially those outside the 20-30 male plays-esports mold. The "content" and in-jokes, the celebrity of it all. The implicit premise that we are supposed to care about these competitors as personalities beyond their performance. It feels like they are trying to sell a vicarious social experience as much as a tournament, and it can come across as super weird to those orthogonal to that transaction.

David Sirlin has written in the past about invitationals being mediocre for competition and community, and while I'm not as opinionated against invitationals as him I do think Summit encapsulates his complaints. (Except transparency)

Normally I skip both Summits and catch highlights later. But given the timing and significance this year, guess I'll be watching it live. Alas.

Yes it makes a bit more sense for Melee summit because the Melee community has practically deified its top players.

 

[SKX31]

I mean, Ike has a lot of advantages over Pyra, it's just that "Mythra" is about as big of a counterpoint as you could get. Not much more needs to be said.


Atomic take that I will 90% regret dropping later: Man, I dislike Summit.

It's just so fratty.

I would be uniquely embarassed to watch it with non-gamer friends, especially those outside the 20-30 male plays-esports mold. The "content" and in-jokes, the celebrity of it all. The implicit premise that we are supposed to care about these competitors as personalities beyond their performance. It feels like they are trying to sell a vicarious social experience as much as a tournament, and it can come across as super weird to those orthogonal to that transaction.

David Sirlin has written in the past about invitationals being mediocre for competition and community, and while I'm not as opinionated against invitationals as him I do think Summit encapsulates his complaints. (Except transparency)

Normally I skip both Summits and catch highlights later. But given the timing and significance this year, guess I'll be watching it live. Alas.

Oh, it absolutely is (BTS started out as a Dota 2 studio and its first Summit was directly modeled after StarCraft's HomeStory Cup). While I personally have enjoyed that those tournaments take place in an atypical setting and feature atypical activities, the side stuff feels a bit too tacked on for the sake of selling that social experience / content IMHO.

If they wanted to sell an air of authenticity I do think that they could've spent much of that time on interviews or other activities that did not give off the impression that it's fratty. However, it's difficult to say what isn't in that context, since the main aim was to have a more casual feeling to the tournament. Or hell, something to get potential newcomers interested.

Of course BTS do all that since they want a product to sell (even though it all started out as a hobby). Not only do they pull of much of the same stuff with their Dota 2 Summits, but it's also even on their official website:

We specialize in scripted, branded, and event content that is authentic and community-driven.

"Community-driven" is probably the key word, especially since BTS started off as a hobby studio covering Southeast Asian / Chinese Dota 2 events for Western audiences, and tried their hand at world-encompassing tournaments. This culminated in the first Summit, where the two invited teams were super-teams*: Team DK had always - up until the team's fall and dissolution in 2015 - built their teams around their famous player BurNIng (and in 2014 the team went all in with their signings), while NaVi were the premier superteam in Dota 2's early days - stretching back from 2011 when they took home Valve's first big International - until they finished 7th at 2014's International.

Thing is, BTS is the only major remaining Dota 2 studio partly because of this approach (and mostly since the others were far more unstable). And there's evidently enough demand within the Smash scene for such a tournament, so BTS were all too happy to oblige.

*Dota 2's scene has incidentally a kinda similar problem re: player celebrity. Teams have been incredibly fluid there - only two out of five organizations at the first Summits still field Dota 2 teams, and even they're completely different now. While players oftentimes go do their own thing - like forming superteams - and have quite a few fans rabidly backing them.

 

[Firox]

I honestly do not think we will see the Ageis will nerfed to be honest. Call me pessimistic but yea. Think the smash team are just about done with support after the final FP2 character comes out.

I have to agree with this. Adjustments have been getting less and less significant with each coming patch. Not sure how much they really care about balancing at this point. Granted, the balancing is pretty awesome overall, but we better hope that the last fighter isn't legit broken or I'm betting we're SOL. They're gonna drop that sucker and pretty much walk away after that.

 

[Minordeth]

Alternative Summit:
The collective Top 3s of all S tiers throughout a year are invited to Summit. In case of a duplicate qualifying placement the next highest placing, non-repeat competitor will now qualify.

In other words, Tweek gets 1st and 3rd at two S tiers. If the person in 4th is not already invited, they now fill in Tweek’s 3rd place spot.

Format is whatever, but probably round robin, first to tens. Wins are weighted according to placements and PGR rank.

Not enough time, you say? There will be once you get rid of all the fluff events.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have no gripes with Summit's qualifying conditions. (Monetary vote-bidding is a bit scummy, except there's no point grandstanding for a more "pure" approach when no one else has figured out a decent way to pay the bills either. Other tournaments do raise-money-to-fly-exotic-player-in too, hardly a sin.)

I also don't have any complaints with the tournament format itself, and obviously the footage and production quality is fantastic.

It's more... you know how MLG came parcel with a very specific vibe? Doritos, Mountain Dew, and Hot Pocket ads everywhere? Presentation that fed this xXx_MLG_420_n0_sc0pe_xXx character identity? That ComicCon-on-Adderall feeling for the show floor? No MLG event felt anything like any other tournament, big or small. If you've been to one, you surely agree: You could never confuse being at MLG for being somewhere else.

Summit is like that, in its own unique way. While it's not remotely the same "overcaffinated tryhards" vibe as MLG, they are alike in that their vibes are unmistakeably distinct from other events, and fixated on selling this personal identity of "esports gamer."


Bah, I'm being aimlessly negative. I should just be happy we are about to get a massive trove of primo offline sets between top players.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New OrionStats update.

OrionStats - Smash Ultimate 2021 TTS (Updated December 25th)

TTS Page & Character Results - Phase 4 Tournaments,Region ,Date,Category,Point Total,Notes,Overall Score - Category 1-5,International Score - Category 3-5,Regional Score - Category 1-2 <a href="https://smash.gg/tournament/mainstage-2021/event/ultimate-singles/brackets/1028047/1617341">Mainstage ...

docs.google.com

• Pyra/Mythra jump up from #25 to #15, they now have the highest ranking of any FP2 character and the second highest out of any DLC character in general, behind . In addition, they are also the third highest sword character, below and .
• Byleth gets a slight rise due to Leo's win at SWT: Central America Regional Finals with them.
• Steve goes up by a single placement due to DDee's run at the recent 4o4 Smash Monthly.
• Mario goes up due to Kurama's placement at Mega Smash Mondays 240.

Atomic take that I will 90% regret dropping later: Man, I dislike Summit.

It's just so fratty.

I would be uniquely embarassed to watch it with non-gamer friends, especially those outside the 20-30 male plays-esports mold. The "content" and in-jokes, the celebrity of it all. The implicit premise that we are supposed to care about these competitors as personalities beyond their performance. It feels like they are trying to sell a vicarious social experience as much as a tournament, and it can come across as super weird to those orthogonal to that transaction.

David Sirlin has written in the past about invitationals being mediocre for competition and community, and while I'm not as opinionated against invitationals as him I do think Summit encapsulates his complaints. (Except transparency)

Normally I skip both Summits and catch highlights later. But given the timing and significance this year, guess I'll be watching it live. Alas.

My personal opinion is that some of the competitors do have legit personalities. WaDi, Kola, Aaron and VoiD all have great streams, with WaDi and Kola IMO being rather funny. Zackray is by far the most popular Smash player, all his videos have 1 million+ views on Youtube.

That said, I feel like there's other players who people only watch because they're good such as Leo and Tweek.

 

[Game7a1]

I made a thread for all Summit discussion as to not fill this thread with all things Summit related. Kind of wish I made one for the SWT for last weekend, but oh well.

Event - Smash Ultimate Summit 3 Discussion Thread

It certainly has been a long while for one of these. This thread is dedicated to all competitive discussion for Smash Ultimate Summit 3, happening on August 16th through 29th. Round Robin: link Round Robin seeding and pools (courtesy of Hydreigonfan01): Group A 1. MkLeo :ultjoker: :ultpyra...

smashboards.com

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Jake (Top Steve main alongside DDee) is picking up and as a secondary.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The amount of players now starting to play the character seriously is really reminding me of pre-patch or pre-patch .

 

[toonito]

New OrionStats update.

OrionStats - Smash Ultimate 2021 TTS (Updated December 25th)

TTS Page & Character Results - Phase 4 Tournaments,Region ,Date,Category,Point Total,Notes,Overall Score - Category 1-5,International Score - Category 3-5,Regional Score - Category 1-2 <a href="https://smash.gg/tournament/mainstage-2021/event/ultimate-singles/brackets/1028047/1617341">Mainstage ...

docs.google.com

• Pyra/Mythra jump up from #25 to #15, they now have the highest ranking of any FP2 character and the second highest out of any DLC character in general, behind . In addition, they are also the third highest sword character, below and .
• Byleth gets a slight rise due to Leo's win at SWT: Central America Regional Finals with them.
• Steve goes up by a single placement due to DDee's run at the recent 4o4 Smash Monthly.
• Mario goes up due to Kurama's placement at Mega Smash Mondays 240.

My personal opinion is that some of the competitors do have legit personalities. WaDi, Kola, Aaron and VoiD all have great streams, with WaDi and Kola IMO being rather funny. Zackray is by far the most popular Smash player, all his videos have 1 million+ views on Youtube.

That said, I feel like there's other players who people only watch because they're good such as Leo and Tweek.

biggest drop from last data (8/16): -6

 

[The_Bookworm]

New OrionStats update.

OrionStats - Smash Ultimate 2021 TTS (Updated December 25th)

TTS Page & Character Results - Phase 4 Tournaments,Region ,Date,Category,Point Total,Notes,Overall Score - Category 1-5,International Score - Category 3-5,Regional Score - Category 1-2 <a href="https://smash.gg/tournament/mainstage-2021/event/ultimate-singles/brackets/1028047/1617341">Mainstage ...

docs.google.com

• Pyra/Mythra jump up from #25 to #15, they now have the highest ranking of any FP2 character and the second highest out of any DLC character in general, behind . In addition, they are also the third highest sword character, below and .
• Byleth gets a slight rise due to Leo's win at SWT: Central America Regional Finals with them.
• Steve goes up by a single placement due to DDee's run at the recent 4o4 Smash Monthly.
• Mario goes up due to Kurama's placement at Mega Smash Mondays 240.

biggest drop from last data (8/16): -6

A few other things to note:

• is no longer dead last with 0 points. He is instead now the 4 lowest character with 7 points. The bottom 3 in terms of points is now at 5 points, at 4.5 points, and at 1 point as the lowest in the list. This doesn't really come as a surprise, as these three characters are currently considered to be among the worst in the game.
• has fallen off quite a bit. Originally ranked fairly high for Corrin standards earlier in the season thanks to Ly, but is now tied with as the 7th-8th lowest character in rank at only 13 points.
• Similarly has fallen off a lot since the start of the season. I believe he was ranked within the top 3 when the season started, but he is now 13th at 100 points. Other characters that benefitted immensely from the start of the season, namely and , has also fallen off significantly. Sephiroth is now at 18th with 95 points and Sheik is now at 19th with 88 points. Both are on verge of leaving the top 20 very soon if this trend continues.
• In contrast, despite being another character that benefitted immensely from the start of the season, remains very steady at the top 10. I believe he was ranked at the top 5 in the last update, but still being top 10 with a whopping 133.5 points is very impressive for a character widely considered to not be top tier. Note that this isn't really "early season" anymore, as we are pretty much smack-dab in the middle of it.
• How does have 37 points?

Something to note is that this update was back at August 16th, 2021, so MSM 240 and the SWT event ARE NOT counted within the list.
This means some things:

• Remember the high amount of play we saw during that week? Well the Aegis's rise from 25th to 15th DID NOT count that. Even if SWT isn't weighted as much as MSM 240, Cosmos' victory at that tournament means that an immense rise is going to be imminent anyways.
• For SWT, characters that will see notable benefit will include . The former three is obvious. The latter three seems like a rise, but not to the same extent, as Gunner and Pikachu is a 7th place victory in a 16 entrant tournament, while Yei used many characters in that tournament, notably Palutena where he used her as much, if not even more than MK.
• For MSM 240, already highly ranked characters like will like this event quite a bit. The performances of ven and especially T3 DOM should help out with the points of those two characters, who are ranked close to average in the list. Ned's performance in this tournament means that got a little wind in his sails for the weekend.

Another thing to note is that MSM 240 is a category 4 tournament, while SWT is a middle category 3 event, so the former tournament will be weighted more.

 

[toonito]

A few other things to note:

• is no longer dead last with 0 points. He is instead now the 4 lowest character with 7 points. The bottom 3 in terms of points is now at 5 points, at 4.5 points, and at 1 point as the lowest in the list. This doesn't really come as a surprise, as these three characters are currently considered to be among the worst in the game.
• has fallen off quite a bit. Originally ranked fairly high for Corrin standards earlier in the season thanks to Ly, but is now tied with as the 7th-8th lowest character in rank at only 13 points.
• Similarly has fallen off a lot since the start of the season. I believe he was ranked within the top 3 when the season started, but he is now 13th at 100 points. Other characters that benefitted immensely from the start of the season, namely and , has also fallen off significantly. Sephiroth is now at 18th with 95 points and Sheik is now at 19th with 88 points. Both are on verge of leaving the top 20 very soon if this trend continues.
• In contrast, despite being another character that benefitted immensely from the start of the season, remains very steady at the top 10. I believe he was ranked at the top 5 in the last update, but still being top 10 with a whopping 133.5 points is very impressive for a character widely considered to not be top tier. Note that this isn't really "early season" anymore, as we are pretty much smack-dab in the middle of it.
• How does have 37 points?

Something to note is that this update was back at August 16th, 2021, so MSM 240 and the SWT event ARE NOT counted within the list.
This means some things:

• Remember the high amount of play we saw during that week? Well the Aegis's rise from 25th to 15th DID NOT count that. Even if SWT isn't weighted as much as MSM 240, Cosmos' victory at that tournament means that an immense rise is going to be imminent anyways.
• For SWT, characters that will see notable benefit will include . The former three is obvious. The latter three seems like a rise, but not to the same extent, as Gunner and Pikachu is a 7th place victory in a 16 entrant tournament, while Yei used many characters in that tournament, notably Palutena where he used her as much, if not even more than MK.
• For MSM 240, already highly ranked characters like will like this event quite a bit. The performances of ven and especially T3 DOM should help out with the points of those two characters, who are ranked close to average in the list. Ned's performance in this tournament means that got a little wind in his sails for the weekend.

Another thing to note is that MSM 240 is a category 4 tournament, while SWT is a middle category 3 event, so the former tournament will be weighted more.

I'm doing my own little project with Orionstats where I compare results over time. I started when OS resumed cataloging offline results back in March.

Shulk: if you remember Shulk actually hit #1 in OS back in March even though it was sparse Japanese results. Overall, he's fallen 12 spots to his current #13 trending down.

Sephiroth: his current spot of #18 is a gain of 2 since March. He kinda fluctates between 15-20.

Sheik: She was as high as #3 back in March, currently #16.

Pythra: has gained 51 spots since March to her current #15. The current talk of the town and people are watching her closely to see if she continues to climb into the top 10 and potentially higher. since Brawl MK and Smash 4 Bayo people are now hyper vigilant of rapidly growing characters in the meta. Other characters who have leaped since March are Lucina (+48) and Pikachu (+38).

On the flipside Pit (-32) and Mewtwo (-41) have tumbled since offline results resumed.